Manhattanville CNGs

[MysteriousBtrain]

I remember hearing and reading about Manhattanville getting CNGs. What ever happened with that? Was the project cancelled and replaced with hybrids or was it just a rumor put on paper?

[Daniel The Cool]

I remember hearing and reading about Manhattanville getting CNGs. What ever happened with that? Was the project cancelled and replaced with hybrids or was it just a rumor put on paper?

I believe when they were trying out the RTS CNG, Manhattanville was supposed to get it. The RTS CNG pilot I heard failed though.

[Cait Sith]

I believe when they were trying out the RTS CNG, Manhattanville was supposed to get it. The RTS CNG pilot I heard failed though.

 

You're way off. The RTS CNG you speak of is 4-5 years older when this plan was announced. We ended up getting Orion V CNGs out of that.

 

In 1998, there was a plan to convert the depot to CNG. But due to high costs of the conversion, it was stalled and eventually, stopped sometime in 2003 or 2004. This is when the advancement of Diesel-Electric Hybrid buses started coming into play, so they can cut down fuel costs and use the diesel-electric hybrids as an alternative(since it was federally funded).

 

This all stems from a report that buses with pre-1994 engines putting out soot and black smoke into the air.

[The TransitMan]

You're way off. The RTS CNG you speak of is 4-5 years older when this plan was announced. We ended up getting Orion V CNGs out of that.

 

In 1998, there was a plan to convert the depot to CNG. But due to high costs of the conversion, it was stalled and eventually, stopped sometime in 2003 or 2004. This is when the advancement of Diesel-Electric Hybrid buses started coming into play, so they can cut down fuel costs and use the diesel-electric hybrids as an alternative(since it was federally funded).

 

This all stems from a report that buses with pre-1994 engines putting out soot and black smoke into the air.

 

Also NIMBYs didn't want it either.

[East New York]

You're way off. The RTS CNG you speak of is 4-5 years older when this plan was announced. We ended up getting Orion V CNGs out of that.

 

In 1998, there was a plan to convert the depot to CNG. But due to high costs of the conversion, it was stalled and eventually, stopped sometime in 2003 or 2004. This is when the advancement of Diesel-Electric Hybrid buses started coming into play, so they can cut down fuel costs and use the diesel-electric hybrids as an alternative(since it was federally funded).

 

This all stems from a report that buses with pre-1994 engines putting out soot and black smoke into the air.

 

 

Also NIMBYs didn't want it either.

 

 

 

Correct, and after all the dust settled there was still the issue surrounding the fact that there were multiple bus depots uptown and it was required that since the depot would not be converted to CNG, it had to at least be converted to an all hybrid operation.

 

For this reason, Manhattanville will also be the first depot to get new hybrids out of the next order.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Correct, and after all the dust settled there was still the issue surrounding the fact that there were multiple bus depots uptown and it was required that since the depot would not be converted to CNG, it had to at least be converted to an all hybrid operation.

 

For this reason, Manhattanville will also be the first depot to get new hybrids out of the next order.

Interesting. Betcha MHV will be the one to take all of the hybrids in the next order.

[Q43LTD]

I don't mean to go off topic, but didn't Mannyville have a few high floors? Or they were just loaners?

[Cait Sith]

I don't mean to go off topic, but didn't Mannyville have a few high floors? Or they were just loaners?

What time period are you speaking of?

[MysteriousBtrain]

I don't mean to go off topic, but didn't Mannyville have a few high floors? Or they were just loaners?

Before the 2010 budget cuts, RTS were a regular. Afterwards, any high floor at the depot was a loaner.

[Q43LTD]

Before the 2010 budget cuts, RTS were a regular. Afterwards, any high floor at the depot was a loaner.

Ok thanks. I remember in the random thoughts thread about posts regarding RTS on Manhattanville routes

[East New York]

Interesting. Betcha MHV will be the one to take all of the hybrids in the next order.

 

Since the order only calls for 75 buses, it is quite possible. MV has the first 62 hybrids delivered. They have now reached their service lives, and are actually holding up qhite better than their CNG counterparts of the same age, which MTA wants gone immediately. Many did not expect the First Generation Orion 7 hybrids to mage to to its 12 year mark smoothly. The road was quite bumpy when the buses were first introduced, and MTA maninetance were newbies. The buses now have more life than MTA and many of us originally expected they would at this age, and do not need to be retired just yet. The production pilot (6365) will be 13 years old in a couple months.

 

I don't mean to go off topic, but didn't Mannyville have a few high floors? Or they were just loaners?

 

 

Before the 2010 budget cuts, RTS were a regular. Afterwards, any high floor at the depot was a loaner.

 

 

Correct. Also note that MV was originally supposed to go forward as one of the only 3 depots to have newer high floors. Nova RTS Hybrids 6360, and 6361 were the first 2 and only buses built for a 5 bus pilot bus program. If the program was sucessful, the buses would have gone to Manhattanville, Quill, and if more were ordered East New York (who said they didnt want hybrids if they were not RTS, and would go on to reject their first batch in the future). Queens Village ended up getting those. 6360 was the only bus delivered, and it subsequently failed due to engine and battery issues. 

 

After the budget cuts RTS were rare at MV except for the occational loaners.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Since the order only calls for 75 buses, it is quite possible. MV has the first 62 hybrids delivered. They have now reached their service lives, and are actually holding up qhite better than their CNG counterparts of the same age, which MTA wants gone immediately. Many did not expect the First Generation Orion 7 hybrids to mage to to its 12 year mark smoothly. The road was quite bumpy when the buses were first introduced, and MTA maninetance were newbies. The buses now have more life than MTA and many of us originally expected they would at this age, and do not need to be retired just yet. The production pilot (6365) will be 13 years old in a couple months.

 

 

 

 

 

Correct. Also note that MV was originally supposed to go forward as one of the only 3 depots to have newer high floors. Nova RTS Hybrids 6360, and 6361 were the first 2 and only buses built for a 5 bus pilot bus program. If the program was sucessful, the buses would have gone to Manhattanville, Quill, and if more were ordered East New York (who said they didnt want hybrids if they were not RTS, and would go on to reject their first batch in the future). Queens Village ended up getting those. 6360 was the only bus delivered, and it subsequently failed due to engine and battery issues.

 

After the budget cuts RTS were rare at MV except for the occational loaners.

So because 6360 failed, the other 4, even 6361, were not delivered and 6360 was out? Seems a bit odd. I believe there where other problems that existed correct? 9/11 and Novabus's temporary exit out of our country were extra reasons I remember hearing about, unless this is false.

[Fresh Pond]

So because 6360 failed, the other 4, even 6361, were not delivered and 6360 was out? Seems a bit odd. I believe there where other problems that existed correct? 9/11 and Novabus's temporary exit out of our country were extra reasons I remember hearing about, unless this is false.

6360 was built and ran

6361 was built, but never delivered

There's rumours of 6362-6364 also being built

 

The program was a fail, and the order was cancelled.

[East New York]

So because 6360 failed, the other 4, even 6361, were not delivered and 6360 was out? Seems a bit odd. I believe there where other problems that existed correct? 9/11 and Novabus's temporary exit out of our country were extra reasons I remember hearing about, unless this is false.

 

 

Yes, Nova didn't exit the market until after MTA cancelled the order. Plenty of other agencies including Dallas and Detroit took delivery of buses after that. 6361 was built first, and tested at the Roswell Facility. 6360 was built second, and tested with MTA. The bus failed, and 6362-6364 were never built. There were no other problems. At that point, MTA was pretty upset about the failure and issued a memo saying they would not order anymore RTS buses. High-Floors were only going to stay around if the program was a sucess. MTA no longer had a need for the RTS at all after that.

[MTA Bus]

I wonder why they never converted 6360 & 6361 into diesel buses. That seems like it would have made more sense then just scrapping brand new buses.

[East New York]

I wonder why they never converted 6360 & 6361 into diesel buses. That seems like it would have made more sense then just scrapping brand new buses.

 

This has happened many times over the years with prototype/pilot buses. If the manufacturer sees the cost of conversion too high, or has not identified a specific buyer they may just scrap the buses for parts.