IAlam Posted May 1, 2016 Share #51 Posted May 1, 2016 Would it be better for the X63-X64-X68 to follow the QM21 path in Manhattan? madison is pretty crowded in the mornings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share #52 Posted May 1, 2016 Would it be better for the X63-X64-X68 to follow the QM21 path in Manhattan? madison is pretty crowded in the mornings I would just have the X63, X64, and X68 follow the current X68 split routing during the height of the rush hour (or otherwise, at their current most frequent headway). For the X63, the current departures from 6:21 AM to 7:36 would run on the split route. From the current schedule, the 6:21 AM, 6:48 AM, 7:12 AM, and 7:36 AM would be the buses running to 57 Street, while the 6:36 AM, 7:00 AM, and 7:24 AM buses would be the buses serving 34 Street and 23 Street destinations. Riders getting on the 6:21 AM, 6:48 AM, or 7:12 AM X63 bus looking for destinations south of 34 Street can now take a later bus and get to where they need to in the same amount of time I would take the previous bus to do the full loop in Manhattan. The X64 is not as frequent, so it is slightly difficult to split, but it can be done. You can have the 6:10 AM, 7:35 AM, 7:55 AM, and 8:15 AM buses run as is. However, the 6:30 AM & 7:00 AM buses would run 5 minutes later, running to 57 Street. The 6:45 AM, and 7:15 AM buses would also run 5 minutes later than scheduled, but serve only 34 Street and 23 Street destinations. Riders going to destinations south of 34 Street taking the current 6:30 AM or 7:00 AM X64 bus would now instead take the 6:50 AM or 7:20 AM bus, and still get them to their destination in the same amount of time it takes for the earlier bus to get to those destinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAlam Posted May 1, 2016 Share #53 Posted May 1, 2016 I would just have the X63, X64, and X68 follow the current X68 split routing during the height of the rush hour (or otherwise, at their current most frequent headway). For the X63, the current departures from 6:21 AM to 7:36 would run on the split route. From the current schedule, the 6:21 AM, 6:48 AM, 7:12 AM, and 7:36 AM would be the buses running to 57 Street, while the 6:36 AM, 7:00 AM, and 7:24 AM buses would be the buses serving 34 Street and 23 Street destinations. Riders getting on the 6:21 AM, 6:48 AM, or 7:12 AM X63 bus looking for destinations south of 34 Street can now take a later bus and get to where they need to in the same amount of time I would take the previous bus to do the full loop in Manhattan. The X64 is not as frequent, so it is slightly difficult to split, but it can be done. You can have the 6:10 AM, 7:35 AM, 7:55 AM, and 8:15 AM buses run as is. However, the 6:30 AM & 7:00 AM buses would run 5 minutes later, running to 57 Street. The 6:45 AM, and 7:15 AM buses would also run 5 minutes later than scheduled, but serve only 34 Street and 23 Street destinations. Riders going to destinations south of 34 Street taking the current 6:30 AM or 7:00 AM X64 bus would now instead take the 6:50 AM or 7:20 AM bus, and still get them to their destination in the same amount of time it takes for the earlier bus to get to those destinations. eh it could work but there need to be more ridership first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share #54 Posted May 1, 2016 eh it could work but there need to be more ridership first I would agree with you if the X63 did not have more ridership than the X68. The X64 is more debatable, but it should be implemented on the X63. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 1, 2016 Share #55 Posted May 1, 2016 At this rate, I'd be worried if there'd even be an x64 in the near future..... Splitting it in Manhattan (into the different routings a la the x68) won't help it. One thing with (riding) the x64, it always felt like its riderbase is rather random, compared to the x63 & x68...... The x51 felt the same way (since it's around, I'll take it [when I don't feel like putting up w/ the , that is] - but I don't necessarily need it), and look at what ended up happening to that route.... That route was pulling around 200 riders a day; the x64 pulls somewhere around 300 IINM.... The communities that the x64 serves isn't like those of which the BxM18 serves, where there's a strong enough backing from its patrons & local politicians to have a route that pulls even less than the x64! See here.... Floral Park & Queens Village will put up a fight for their x68.... Rosedale will put up a fight for their x63.... What group/community would fight for the x64 if it ends up on the chopping block.... Not what communities does it serve, but which of them would put up a fight? I laugh as I'm typing this, but I seriously think the x64 (routing) b/w Union Tpke subway & Cambria Hgts-235th would be better off as a local route..... As for the x63, before I'd worry about splitting it into the different routings (a la the x68), I would fuse/merge the QM21 into the x63 (as stated prior in other discussions I don't feel like searching for right now).... This would inflate the ridership #'s of the x63 - THEN there'd need to be a determination if those riders would benefit from (or even want) ~ 1/2 the overall trips during the AM rush bypassing East Midtown..... Quite honestly BM5, I think you've been adamant about much of nothing with the having of the x63 & x64 undergo the split routing of the x68..... Not trying to be funny, but the Arab community pushed for that East midtown bypass (and to my surprise, they actually got their wish with that).... It's almost as if you're saying the riders of the x63 & the x64 have the same needs, because they... what... Happen to be the lone Queens NYCT express routes...... The x68 & the x63 usage within manhattan seems to be spread out (during the PM rush anyway).... The x64, for as low usage that it gets, tends to get more riders north of 42nd than south of it..... Save for the doomsday speech in the very first statement, this is another reason why the x64 should not undergo the same AM service patterns as the x68..... -fin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAlam Posted May 2, 2016 Share #56 Posted May 2, 2016 I would agree with you if the X63 did not have more ridership than the X68. The X64 is more debatable, but it should be implemented on the X63. tbh the x68 doesn't need it either, like I said most south bound customers get off at the first stop in Manhattan. If they really don't like walking or going around manhattan, which is like 10 -20max min more they can get off at Union and transfer to the QM21/X68. That stop on Union is a perfect transfer point. You have the QM18 for 6th ave QM21 for Madison X68 with is 3 variants X63/X64 3rd ave and 5th ave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted May 2, 2016 Share #57 Posted May 2, 2016 no it actually doesn't take too long 3rd av and 5th ave traffic isn't too bad in the mornings I actually did ride it around all the way to NYPL on 5th and 42nd it took about the same time as a QM2 going all the way around 6th ave to the last stop. 6th ave and madison has a lot of bus traffic in the mornings 5th ave, 3rd ave, and lexington ave are usually a little better. Good to know. WHen I take the 3rd Ave QM5, some mornings it flies up 3rd, but others it gets pretty backed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share #58 Posted May 3, 2016 At this rate, I'd be worried if there'd even be an x64 in the near future..... Splitting it in Manhattan (into the different routings a la the x68) won't help it. One thing with (riding) the x64, it always felt like its riderbase is rather random, compared to the x63 & x68...... The x51 felt the same way (since it's around, I'll take it [when I don't feel like putting up w/ the , that is] - but I don't necessarily need it), and look at what ended up happening to that route.... That route was pulling around 200 riders a day; the x64 pulls somewhere around 300 IINM.... The communities that the x64 serves isn't like those of which the BxM18 serves, where there's a strong enough backing from its patrons & local politicians to have a route that pulls even less than the x64! See here.... Floral Park & Queens Village will put up a fight for their x68.... Rosedale will put up a fight for their x63.... What group/community would fight for the x64 if it ends up on the chopping block.... Not what communities does it serve, but which of them would put up a fight? I laugh as I'm typing this, but I seriously think the x64 (routing) b/w Union Tpke subway & Cambria Hgts-235th would be better off as a local route..... As for the x63, before I'd worry about splitting it into the different routings (a la the x68), I would fuse/merge the QM21 into the x63 (as stated prior in other discussions I don't feel like searching for right now).... This would inflate the ridership #'s of the x63 - THEN there'd need to be a determination if those riders would benefit from (or even want) ~ 1/2 the overall trips during the AM rush bypassing East Midtown..... Quite honestly BM5, I think you've been adamant about much of nothing with the having of the x63 & x64 undergo the split routing of the x68..... Not trying to be funny, but the Arab community pushed for that East midtown bypass (and to my surprise, they actually got their wish with that).... It's almost as if you're saying the riders of the x63 & the x64 have the same needs, because they... what... Happen to be the lone Queens NYCT express routes...... The x68 & the x63 usage within manhattan seems to be spread out (during the PM rush anyway).... The x64, for as low usage that it gets, tends to get more riders north of 42nd than south of it..... Save for the doomsday speech in the very first statement, this is another reason why the x64 should not undergo the same AM service patterns as the x68..... -fin... Okay, so I figured that the proposing the X64 was stretching it as for as the proposal is concerned. The reason for splitting the X63 is more because the communities the X63 serve are generally further out from Manhattan compared to the X68, in addition to its ridership numbers being higher than the X68 too. Also, while the proposal would double the headway during the selected period in time for each service, it would not inconvenience anyone needed the 30s and destinations south of it. The bus would have less runtime to get to those destinations on 34 Street and 23 Street quicker than having to walk from 37 Street. While the busload from people going to 42 Street and points north would not be the 34 Street service, you would get two loads worth of people going towards 34 Street (the ones regularly taking the bus, and the ones which take the previous bus, which under this plan would only serve areas north of 42 Street). The riders going to areas on 42 Street or north would be inconvenienced by the increased in headway during the AM. However, overall, the runtime goes down by around $100,154 (rough estimate). While that does not seem like very much of any savings, that can actually be used to run one extra X63 bus to 57 Street during the time the split service runs, plus any deadheads to/from the depot, and DH to LIC. I do agree that the X63 and QM21 should become one route and then splitting the route would be "easier". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 3, 2016 Share #59 Posted May 3, 2016 However, overall, the runtime goes down by around $100,154 (rough estimate). The MTA is never more precise than the nearest thousand when it comes down to making estimates. And like I've mentioned in the past, the only way you can use those savings to run an extra trip is if you shorten the runtime enough to get that bus out to Queens in time to run that second trip. The 6:21AM bus is scheduled to get to 37th & 3rd at 7:29AM, and would likely get to the last stop around 7:45AM or so. The last bus from Rosedale is at 8:09AM, so you're not going to get back out there in time to run that trip. When accounting for the standard layover, plus enough of a cushion to account for any traffic on the LIE, at best, you can probably add a final trip a little bit before 9AM. What formula are you using the calculate the cost per hour? And does it account for the fact that rush hour runs usually involve a lot more split shifts and deadheading, which adds to the cost? A simple route like those little shuttles they made (B32, Bx46, etc) that operate on a uniform headway throughout the day, you can apply a straight cost per hour, but not for an express route. That route was pulling around 200 riders a day; the x64 pulls somewhere around 300 IINM.... The communities that the x64 serves isn't like those of which the BxM18 serves, where there's a strong enough backing from its patrons & local politicians to have a route that pulls even less than the x64! Quite honestly BM5, I think you've been adamant about much of nothing with the having of the x63 & x64 undergo the split routing of the x68..... Not trying to be funny, but the Arab community pushed for that East midtown bypass (and to my surprise, they actually got their wish with that).... It's almost as if you're saying the riders of the x63 & the x64 have the same needs, because they... what... Happen to be the lone Queens NYCT express routes...... The ridership numbers listed on the MTA website don't account for the fact that they cut the X51 about halfway through the year. So they should be approximately double what's listed (so instead of 158 riders per day, it should be in the low 300s. The year before, it had 340 riders per weekday). At the time, the X64 was pulling around 450 riders per day. Basically, the X64 now is pulling in the same range the X51 was pulling just before it got cut. Their logic for keeping the X64 was that it "Serves Eastern Queens neighborhoods far from subway", whereas the X51 duplicated the train. I mean, the X51 service area was within a ~10 minute local bus ride of the subway. On the X64, Cambria Heights is a good 30 minutes away. So basically, their argument was network coverage in the express network. Would they resort to telling people to make their way to the LIRR at St. Albans or Queens Village, especially now they they're coming up with that special LIRR pass (Freedom ticket or whatever it's called)? I guess it's possible, and if anything, they might use that as a concession, since one of the reasons behind the program is the fact that the LIRR is supposed to be quicker than the express bus. BTW, when did they implement that East Midtown bypass on the X68? I see a 2002 schedule that shows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share #60 Posted May 3, 2016 The MTA is never more precise than the nearest thousand when it comes down to making estimates. And like I've mentioned in the past, the only way you can use those savings to run an extra trip is if you shorten the runtime enough to get that bus out to Queens in time to run that second trip. The 6:21AM bus is scheduled to get to 37th & 3rd at 7:29AM, and would likely get to the last stop around 7:45AM or so. The last bus from Rosedale is at 8:09AM, so you're not going to get back out there in time to run that trip. When accounting for the standard layover, plus enough of a cushion to account for any traffic on the LIE, at best, you can probably add a final trip a little bit before 9AM. What formula are you using the calculate the cost per hour? And does it account for the fact that rush hour runs usually involve a lot more split shifts and deadheading, which adds to the cost? A simple route like those little shuttles they made (B32, Bx46, etc) that operate on a uniform headway throughout the day, you can apply a straight cost per hour, but not for an express route. The ridership numbers listed on the MTA website don't account for the fact that they cut the X51 about halfway through the year. So they should be approximately double what's listed (so instead of 158 riders per day, it should be in the low 300s. The year before, it had 340 riders per weekday). At the time, the X64 was pulling around 450 riders per day. Basically, the X64 now is pulling in the same range the X51 was pulling just before it got cut. Their logic for keeping the X64 was that it "Serves Eastern Queens neighborhoods far from subway", whereas the X51 duplicated the train. I mean, the X51 service area was within a ~10 minute local bus ride of the subway. On the X64, Cambria Heights is a good 30 minutes away. So basically, their argument was network coverage in the express network. Would they resort to telling people to make their way to the LIRR at St. Albans or Queens Village, especially now they they're coming up with that special LIRR pass (Freedom ticket or whatever it's called)? I guess it's possible, and if anything, they might use that as a concession, since one of the reasons behind the program is the fact that the LIRR is supposed to be quicker than the express bus. BTW, when did they implement that East Midtown bypass on the X68? I see a 2002 schedule that shows it. I mean, that extra X63 trip could be added if there's overcrowding on the East Midtown service. However, I do agree in expanding the X63's hours of operation, and I would also be open to having a bus during the 9 AM hour to Manhattan. The 8:09 AM trip doesn't have to be made by an X63. Currently, the first X68 arrives at 57 Street at 7:03 AM. So there would be 66 minutes from 57 Street to Rosedale. However, I don't know if it'll be enough, despite that traffic flow isn't as bad towards Queens at that time on most streets (until about the Briarwood area, and the Van Wyck Service Road), so you may have a point there (the current first X68 deadheads to QV I believe, based on what I've seen). Regarding for the freedom pass, if the service will give those riders free transfers to the subway or bus, then yeah, they probably would tell riders to take the Q4 to Saint Albans for the LIRR. I don't know the frequencies at that time for St Albans, but I believe they might have to revise the current schedule too (but that has minimal impact). The cost per hour was calculated by using the figure of $172.69 (although it may be higher now, since IIRC, this was the estimate a year ago so). Then the runtime difference for all the trips that would be converted to either a Madison Avenue or 34 Street service was added up, multiplied by the cost per minute. (The saving in runtime would be 137 minutes). Then I kinda broke it down into individual segments. So it's about 30 minutes or so from QV to Rosedale. Then, the revenue trip would take 105 minutes. Overall, that's 135 minutes of runtime, and yes the cost will increase slightly because of the DH time between 57 Street and LIC. However, for all those runs to 57 Street, it is closer to that facility on Crane Street, so the DH time is reduced by about a minute or two, offsetting some of the increase in cost for the morning. Now, if we went with adding service on the split service, and if 66 minutes isn't enough time to Rosedale from 57th, or the schedule for the first X68 and the last X63 can't be tinkered so that the X68 leaves a few minutes earlier, and have that last X63 leave a few minutes later, then an extra run would have to be added for the X63 (and it would increase costs overall). Now that there's one extra run, there would have to be a corresponding bus going back. There could be either a bus at 2:49 PM or 3:19 PM towards Rosedale, and then it would do a DH to Manhattan, to do a second trip to Rosedale, potentially replacing a run which DH's from QV to Manhattan. This cause a chain reaction, and whatever run it replaces would then not have a PM shift. Are there any QV local routes which could see some slight improvements in frequency? (I believe that the Q88 could get some slight decrease in headway, but there may be more routes in need). However, I do think this plan would be easier to execute if/when the QM21 and X63 are merged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAlam Posted May 3, 2016 Share #61 Posted May 3, 2016 And like I've mentioned in the past, the only way you can use those savings to run an extra trip is if you shorten the runtime enough to get that bus out to Queens in time to run that second trip. The 6:21AM bus is scheduled to get to 37th & 3rd at 7:29AM, and would likely get to the last stop around 7:45AM or so. The last bus from Rosedale is at 8:09AM, so you're not going to get back out there in time to run that trip. When accounting for the standard layover, plus enough of a cushion to account for any traffic on the LIE, at best, you can probably add a final trip a little bit before 9AM.This would be incorrect as the first bus is currently scheduled to depart at 5:41 arriving at it terminus at around 7:20 which mean it can make a 9:00 am departure with cushion time X63 schedule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 4, 2016 Share #62 Posted May 4, 2016 I mean, that extra X63 trip could be added if there's overcrowding on the East Midtown service. However, I do agree in expanding the X63's hours of operation, and I would also be open to having a bus during the 9 AM hour to Manhattan. The 8:09 AM trip doesn't have to be made by an X63. Currently, the first X68 arrives at 57 Street at 7:03 AM. So there would be 66 minutes from 57 Street to Rosedale. However, I don't know if it'll be enough, despite that traffic flow isn't as bad towards Queens at that time on most streets (until about the Briarwood area, and the Van Wyck Service Road), so you may have a point there (the current first X68 deadheads to QV I believe, based on what I've seen). Regarding for the freedom pass, if the service will give those riders free transfers to the subway or bus, then yeah, they probably would tell riders to take the Q4 to Saint Albans for the LIRR. I don't know the frequencies at that time for St Albans, but I believe they might have to revise the current schedule too (but that has minimal impact). The cost per hour was calculated by using the figure of $172.69 (although it may be higher now, since IIRC, this was the estimate a year ago so). Then the runtime difference for all the trips that would be converted to either a Madison Avenue or 34 Street service was added up, multiplied by the cost per minute. (The saving in runtime would be 137 minutes). Then I kinda broke it down into individual segments. So it's about 30 minutes or so from QV to Rosedale. Then, the revenue trip would take 105 minutes. Overall, that's 135 minutes of runtime, and yes the cost will increase slightly because of the DH time between 57 Street and LIC. However, for all those runs to 57 Street, it is closer to that facility on Crane Street, so the DH time is reduced by about a minute or two, offsetting some of the increase in cost for the morning. Now, if we went with adding service on the split service, and if 66 minutes isn't enough time to Rosedale from 57th, or the schedule for the first X68 and the last X63 can't be tinkered so that the X68 leaves a few minutes earlier, and have that last X63 leave a few minutes later, then an extra run would have to be added for the X63 (and it would increase costs overall). Now that there's one extra run, there would have to be a corresponding bus going back. There could be either a bus at 2:49 PM or 3:19 PM towards Rosedale, and then it would do a DH to Manhattan, to do a second trip to Rosedale, potentially replacing a run which DH's from QV to Manhattan. This cause a chain reaction, and whatever run it replaces would then not have a PM shift. Are there any QV local routes which could see some slight improvements in frequency? (I believe that the Q88 could get some slight decrease in headway, but there may be more routes in need). However, I do think this plan would be easier to execute if/when the QM21 and X63 are merged. Part of the Freedom Ticket program involves making a few extra trains stop at the SE Queens stations to accommodate the increased ridership and make it more attractive to take the LIRR. I'm not sure where you got that $172 figure from (the FTA maybe? Or maybe doing some math off those monthly meetings where they talk about a 2 minute reduction in runtime saving a certain amount of money), but in any case, that's probably just a straight average. Rush hour service will always have a higher cost per hour than off-peak service due to the nature of the operation. This would be incorrect as the first bus is currently scheduled to depart at 5:41 arriving at it terminus at around 7:20 which mean it can make a 9:00 am departure with cushion time X63 schedule I was referring to this comment: While that does not seem like very much of any savings, that can actually be used to run one extra X63 bus to 57 Street during the time the split service runs, plus any deadheads to/from the depot, and DH to LIC. Yes, I know that you could probably add another trip leaving around 9AM, but that's after the split service ends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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