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Rockaway Beach Branch

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8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

A minor quibble: the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, or Midtown, more specifically. As such, the RBB is actually more oriented towards that then the scenic route on the (A) or (J) . But yes, it's really not necessary.

That being said, "the express buses are good enough" is not really a good argument, because the express buses cost so much to run. The subway is dirt cheap to operate and the marginal cost of pressing more bodies into the train is virtually nil.

Give me a break. The express buses are already there and aren't being fully utilized, so you get those buses filled up more and add a few more buses. A lot cheaper than building out infrastructure for a subway. We're talking about solutions for the here and now. Long-term is a different story, but you of all people should be mindful of that when you talk about how the (MTA) is so broke. Lines like the QM15, QM16 and QM17, the (MTA) is reimbursed for by the City in order to provide equal quick transportation for those who are far out or don't have subway access. Just because you ram a subway somewhere doesn't mean you can just scrap express buses. You seem to believe that, but that isn't the case. Using my commute, even with the (1) train, I have a tedious commute to work. A bus and three trains. I'll still opt for the one-seat ride as many do.  Less stress and aggravation. 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

A minor quibble: the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, or Midtown, more specifically. As such, the RBB is actually more oriented towards that then the scenic route on the (A) or (J) . But yes, it's really not necessary.

That being said, "the express buses are good enough" is not really a good argument, because the express buses cost so much to run. The subway is dirt cheap to operate and the marginal cost of pressing more bodies into the train is virtually nil.

Looking at the schedules of the R and the A, it looks as if, should the RBB be reactivated and connected to the Queens Blvd Local the fastest route to much of midtown from the Rockaways would be... The A.  This isn't just a solution to a non-existent problem- it is a non-solution to a non-existent problem. 

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11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

A minor quibble: the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, or Midtown, more specifically. As such, the RBB is actually more oriented towards that then the scenic route on the (A) or (J) . But yes, it's really not necessary.

That being said, "the express buses are good enough" is not really a good argument, because the express buses cost so much to run. The subway is dirt cheap to operate and the marginal cost of pressing more bodies into the train is virtually nil.

While the subway is cheaper to run, it will be cheaper to run when it Is fully built. Right now, it isn't, and buses are the best option. The bus will still be cheaper to run in the long run when considering how much it would cost to build the line. 

 

10 hours ago, RR503 said:

What’s more, for many along the RBB corridor, the extra fare for express buses puts them economically out of reach. I agree with deucey insofar that we should capitalize on all extant transit options, and that should include express bus, but to capitalize on just one in ignorance of local demographics isn’t smart. 

In combination of all the stuff suggested above, I’d do a detiming of Fulton street to reduce travel times and increase reliability, eliminate skip stop on the (J)(Z) to shorten headways, and extend the (C) to Lefferts to increase capacity. Those improvements, combined with the above will frankly leave the Rockaways better off transportationally than many other areas of the city. Leave the RBB for when the MTA has leisure cash. 

Actually, most of the neighborhoods along Woodhaven Boulevard (and Cross Bay Boulevard) can afford the express bus. Some pockets of Glendale, Woodhaven and Ozone Park cannot afford them. On the other hand, Howard Beach, Lindenwood, Forest Hills, Rego Park, and Middle Village can afford them because of income levels being higher. Ridership on the QM15 speaks for itself: outside the rush hour, you get about half the ridership going south of 101 Avenue, with the other half getting off north of Metropolitan Avenue. Most of the current express bus routes are not designed with low-middle class or working class customers in mind. Additionally, there should also be improvements to the local buses, and the SBS routes (where necessary).

I'm not going to get into a (C) to Lefferts debate, but while it would increase capacity, people have spoken up against losing express service from Ozone Park. I agree that there needs to be more frequent train service in the Rockaways though. That's partially why bus service does pretty good. 

3 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

Do you really think riders would take an expensive express bus, only to get stuck in traffic! Or even take the Q52/53 SBS, only to stand on impossibly overcrowded subway platforms! They wouldn't be willing to take local service either because buses are slow!

The express bus would still be faster for most, even if the RBB line was built. As long as whatever service runs down there is a Queens Boulevard Local, the express bus would still be faster. Plus, most neighborhoods along the Woodhaven/Cross Bay Boulevard corridor can afford the express bus. 

The Q52/Q53 SBS is faster now thanks to the bus lanes where buses are only-permitted 24/7. Despite how some people believe it isn't needed, that was sorely needed, and not just for the SBS routes. Many people make a sticking point about the SBS routes, but forget about all the other buses running on the corridor. 

3 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

A question for VG8, Deucey, and BM5: Do you really think a random park splat out in the middle of nowhere would attract tourists? 

I never agreed with a Queensway project, so this statement (and the rest of the paragraph) doesn't change my opinion.

3 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

Plus, the (M) won't necessarily be long if it goes to Howard Beach. If it goes to Rockaway Park yes, but it could run down there with 20 minute headways since most will terminate at Howard Beach. Plus, the Forest Hills layups will finally have capacity to spare and now the (G) could return there with the (R)

You come and criticize us who support more bus service for supporting inefficiency, and then you bring up the (G) to Forest Hills. Can you (or someone else) please explain what warrants the (G) going back to Forest Hills? Every time the RBB is discussed, this proposal is reincarnated in some way, shape, or form. 

The only types of people who benefit from this are:

1. People transferring at express stops

2. People who are going to Brooklyn

3. People who travel between Forest Hills and Queens Plaza or Court Square

But the group of people above is outnumbered by those who are going towards Manhattan. It's bad enough that service on the QBL, especially on weekends, is utter crap. Either add more (R) service to compensate for the loss of service at 67 Avenue (which I don't agree should happen in the first place, even if it's one stop), or keep it as it is. 

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3 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

A question for VG8, Deucey, and BM5: Do you really think a random park splat out in the middle of nowhere would attract tourists? There are millions of parks around the city and the only ones that are very popular are in Manhattan. And you could say "well the HighLine gets a lot of traffic" but firstly, it's in Manhattan. No one will go to a park that is splat out in the middle of nowhere, not to mention where could potentially be a very high crime rate. These Queensway clowns should LOSE, be forced to deal with it and support a renovation of Forest Park

That’s the question you’re asking, but it’s spurious to what @Via Garibaldi 8, @BM5 via Woodhaven and I are and have been saying.

Whether RBB is turned into a park, torn down and turned into luxury market rate condos or affordable housing, or left to rot even longer is immaterial.

The fact is reactivating RBB doesn’t solve anything but a narrow issue - “I don’t wanna ride a bus for 30 minutes to the train.”

It doesn’t increase capacity on QBL nor Fulton St, it doesn’t save anyone any time getting to Manhattan, and it won’t grow unique ridership to make it self-sufficient as a spur of one or two overcrowded trunk lines.

As I said earlier in this discussion, if you did reactivate RBB with the goal of getting folks from the ass end of Queens to Manhattan, you’d have to build a new trunk line through South Queens and North Brooklyn to make it worth it. And given how TA is loathe to build express-local setups, that trunk will likely be a two track local with stops every 10-12 blocks and take an hour to get to its Manhattan terminus from the RBB.

A $3 express bus does the same at less cost - including the $3/fare subsidy.

Whereas a 125th St Crosstown to LGA and JFK - whether via RBB or joining the Fulton line does several things: it gives the thousands who work at LGA and JFK direct access to jobs; it gives pax direct access to both airports without having to navigate crowded midtown; it relieves crowding on the (7) and (N) in Midtown and Queens, and with the SAS as a spur, relieves crowding on 8th Av, Broadway, Lenox and Lex.

And it’ll do that whether it uses RBB to Howard Beach or not.

But it doesn’t mean that it’s a current operational need. Like your RBB thing, it’s a nice to have, although this is more viable an option than RBB to QBL, if only because your ideas aren’t capacity adds - they’re extensions that capture fares but reduce efficiency and cost-effectiveness solely to prevent a park from being built.

And I thought I was petty.

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4 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

I agree that any line on RBB has to go to Manhattan, so the (M) is the best choice. 

The people in the area DO HAVE LIMITED SUBWAY ACCESS! FYI only the Jamaica Line (J)(Z) passes through the area, not the (A). The (A) is AT THE END of the branch. Plus, this transit desert DOES have limited transit access! 

Do you really think riders would take an expensive express bus, only to get stuck in traffic! Or even take the Q52/53 SBS, only to stand on impossibly overcrowded subway platforms! They wouldn't be willing to take local service either because buses are slow!

Plus, this should be a high-priority project, compared to a petty Red Hook SAS extension or a stupid 125 St-JFK line. Those lines will NEVER produce enough demand, whereas RBB WOULD. 

A question for VG8, Deucey, and BM5: Do you really think a random park splat out in the middle of nowhere would attract tourists? There are millions of parks around the city and the only ones that are very popular are in Manhattan. And you could say "well the HighLine gets a lot of traffic" but firstly, it's in Manhattan. No one will go to a park that is splat out in the middle of nowhere, not to mention where could potentially be a very high crime rate. These Queensway clowns should LOSE, be forced to deal with it and support a renovation of Forest Park. 

Plus, the (M) won't necessarily be long if it goes to Howard Beach. If it goes to Rockaway Park yes, but it could run down there with 20 minute headways since most will terminate at Howard Beach. Plus, the Forest Hills layups will finally have capacity to spare and now the (G) could return there with the (R)

If Woodhaven was converted into an express stop, this would greatly take relief off of Roosevelt Av. Another short-term solution to reduce crowding would be to construct a third track on the Jamaica Line east of Broadway Jct, and have the (Z) go express to Broad while the (J) becomes the full-time local. This would reduce crowding in the sense that it would allow a faster commute downtown. A long-term solution to reduce overcrowding wold be to construct the 63 St-QB Bypass. 

Regarding the (M) i agree to not make it long going to rockaways i would have every 3rd train terminate at jfk and going back to manhattan  for turning at 2nd avenue would every 3rd train be suitable? 

Also with this you can have the focus on (A) to Far Rockaway and extend the (C) to lefferts and have every 4th train terminate at jfk if that is suitable

Why should those people be forced to ride through brooklyn for service to Manhattan and those interviewed on a news article in support whu would u force those people to go to brooklyn for going to Jamaica?

To answer the park question the fact that they would consider the park as a crime reduicer is malarkey

And i agree with converting woodhaven to express to relieve Roosevelt 

Hell everyone's obsession with the (G) to forest hills if the L.I.E H.H.E line is built i would send the there.

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52 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Whether RBB is turned into a park, torn down and turned into luxury market rate condos or affordable housing, or left to rot even longer is immaterial.

The fact is reactivating RBB doesn’t solve anything but a narrow issue - “I don’t wanna ride a bus for 30 minutes to the train.”

It doesn’t increase capacity on QBL nor Fulton St, it doesn’t save anyone any time getting to Manhattan, and it won’t grow unique ridership to make it self-sufficient as a spur of one or two overcrowded trunk lines.

As I said earlier in this discussion, if you did reactivate RBB with the goal of getting folks from the ass end of Queens to Manhattan, you’d have to build a new trunk line through South Queens and North Brooklyn to make it worth it. And given how TA is loathe to build express-local setups, that trunk will likely be a two track local with stops every 10-12 blocks and take an hour to get to its Manhattan terminus from the RBB.

A $3 express bus does the same at less cost - including the $3/fare subsidy.

And it’ll do that whether it uses RBB to Howard Beach or not.

But it doesn’t mean that it’s a current operational need. Like your RBB thing, it’s a nice to have, although this is more viable an option than RBB to QBL, if only because your ideas aren’t capacity adds - they’re extensions that capture fares but reduce efficiency and cost-effectiveness solely to prevent a park from being built.

And I thought I was petty.

Rockaway beach branch is to right a transit inequity those people have and give those people expand service the cost to build it would pay for itself 10 times over. Would you rather us build the rbb now and bear its costs to rebulid or when it is lost would you play catchup and spend  atleast 10 billion

Btw express bus fare is $6.50

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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Wow. I can't believe this thread turned into a huge argument over bus vs. subways. 

@BreeddekalbL I would have MOST (M)s terminate at Howard Beach, with a 3 TPH frequency to Rockaway Park. Those (M) trains will terminate at 2 Av during rush hrs, while ones from Howard Beach will go to Metropolitan. The (C) will also be extended to Lefferts. 

As for the (Z) it's purpose is to reduce crowding off of QBL since it is congested. As for the LIE line, I would send the (R) there since the (G) doesn't provide Manhattan service. 

@BM5 via Woodhaven There could be demand for the (G) to 71 Av because if it went there, ridership would soar. Another reason is because if they build transfers to the (J)(M) at Lorimer, and the (2)(3)(4)(5)(B)(D)(N)(Q)(R) at Atlantic Av, there would be more demand for it to go to QB. 

@Deucey ONLY the EXPRESS TRACKS are at capacity. The local tracks still have capacity to spare. Plus, this reduces congestion at 71 Av and frees up terminal capacity. 

I'll give you all THREE REASONS why express buses have low ridership.

1. The fare is expensive at $6.50

2. The fare will be wasted since buses get caught in traffic. 

3. People will take the subway for a faster ride to Manhattan. 

 

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14 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Rockaway beach branch is to right a transit inequity those people have and give those people expand service the cost to build it would pay for itself 10 times over. Would you rather us build the rbb now and bear its costs to rebulid or when it is lost would you play catchup and spend  atleast 10 billion

Btw express bus fare is $6.50

I know what express fare is. You overlooked the part where I said including the $3/fare subsidy...

And there’s no right to transit. The only right is freedom of movement across state lines - meaning NJ can’t pass laws prohibiting NYers from moving there. And by expansion and custom, it allows you to go from Queens to the Bronx. But there’s nothing saying that the government has to build a road or create an easement to facilitate you doing that.

Transit and transportation are privileges. There is no requirement to build a subway or a road - only a desire to do so when the government and individuals collectively agree that building either or both provides a mutual benefit.

RBB doesn’t do that since it’ll be underutilized and negligibly beneficial, like many view(ed) the (G).

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12 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

Wow. I can't believe this thread turned into a huge argument over bus vs. subways. 

@BreeddekalbL I would have MOST (M)s terminate at Howard Beach, with a 3 TPH frequency to Rockaway Park. Those (M) trains will terminate at 2 Av during rush hrs, while ones from Howard Beach will go to Metropolitan. The (C) will also be extended to Lefferts. 

As for the (Z) it's purpose is to reduce crowding off of QBL since it is congested. As for the LIE line, I would send the (R) there since the (G) doesn't provide Manhattan service. 

@BM5 via Woodhaven There could be demand for the (G) to 71 Av because if it went there, ridership would soar. Another reason is because if they build transfers to the (J)(M) at Lorimer, and the (2)(3)(4)(5)(B)(D)(N)(Q)(R) at Atlantic Av, there would be more demand for it to go to QB. 

@Deucey ONLY the EXPRESS TRACKS are at capacity. The local tracks still have capacity to spare. Plus, this reduces congestion at 71 Av and frees up terminal capacity. 

I'll give you all THREE REASONS why express buses have low ridership.

1. The fare is expensive at $6.50

2. The fare will be wasted since buses get caught in traffic. 

3. People will take the subway for a faster ride to Manhattan. 

 

But but but...

if the express lines are at capacity and SRO while the locals have spare capacity, why aren’t people riding the local??

Let’s take it further:

If RBB is built and tied into the local tracks on QBL and the trains proposed to operate on RBB - (M) and (R) - are already QBL locals with spare capacity now, AND the expresses are at capacity and SRO, what’s to a) prevent people crowding to get on an express at your rebuilt Woodhaven or at 71st; and b) assuming that they cannot get on a (E)(F) because it’s SRO, they’re now taking just as long to get to B-way or 6 Av as the express bus via QMT or BBT, so what problem did you solve for the billions spent to not build a park?

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Well, I see that this thread became an argument pretty quickly. Someone mentioned here about turning RBB into a trunk line. I think it was either @Deucey or someone else. You just lit up an idea in my head

As for the (G) to Forest Hills debate and QBL local tracks not at full capacity.. As a rider of the Queens Blvd trunk line and seeing how LIC and Greenpoint have  been developing over the years I agree to re extending it. Your only obstacle would be capacity. BTW,  Forest Hills is a Trashy terminal and by trashy I mean inefficient.

as for RBB, it would be nice to have as I said earlier (or someone else) it gives us a chance to build a new trunk line for a cheap price. 

I'm pretty sure that WE CAN ALL AGREE that both subway and bus service need to be improved. 

That's all I have to say for now

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2 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But but but...

if the express lines are at capacity and SRO while the locals have spare capacity, why aren’t people riding the local??

Let’s take it further:

If RBB is built and tied into the local tracks on QBL and the trains proposed to operate on RBB - (M) and (R) - are already QBL locals with spare capacity now, AND the expresses are at capacity and SRO, what’s to a) prevent people crowding to get on an express at your rebuilt Woodhaven or at 71st; and b) assuming that they cannot get on a (E)(F) because it’s SRO, they’re now taking just as long to get to B-way or 6 Av as the express bus via QMT or BBT, so what problem did you solve for the billions spent to not build a park?

Well you're not wrong. All Woodhaven Boulevard stations would need to be rebuilt. A bus hub in my opinion would eventually be needed on Queens and Woodhaven Boulevards respectively.  As for the fact that RBB needs to connect to QBL locals, let's use that up to your advantage. And like I said earlier. BOTH SUBWAY AND BUS SERVICE NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED

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4 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

Well you're not wrong. All Woodhaven Boulevard stations would need to be rebuilt. A bus hub in my opinion would eventually be needed on Queens and Woodhaven Boulevards respectively.  As for the fact that RBB needs to connect to QBL locals, let's use that up to your advantage. And like I said earlier. BOTH SUBWAY AND BUS SERVICE NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED

This is where I think people are mistakenly conflating two concepts. Connecting QBL is not an improvement; it’s an expansion.

Expansions can be improvements, just like improvements can be expansions, but unlike SAS, RBB isn’t relieving overcrowding anywhere. It’s adding more people onto an overcrowded trunk line and forcing them to go out of their way to not get on an express train - because of SRO capacity issues - and take just as long to get to midtown as taking the express bus sitting on that local train.

For the billions that could be spent on this, the express bus fare could be subsidized to $3/ride and run nonstop from Lefferts Bl (or the equivalent streets after Lefferts ends) and be more cost effective and efficient.

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59 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

Wow. I can't believe this thread turned into a huge argument over bus vs. subways. 

@BM5 via Woodhaven There could be demand for the (G) to 71 Av because if it went there, ridership would soar. Another reason is because if they build transfers to the (J)(M) at Lorimer, and the (2)(3)(4)(5)(B)(D)(N)(Q)(R) at Atlantic Av, there would be more demand for it to go to QB. 

@Deucey ONLY the EXPRESS TRACKS are at capacity. The local tracks still have capacity to spare. Plus, this reduces congestion at 71 Av and frees up terminal capacity. 

I'll give you all THREE REASONS why express buses have low ridership.

1. The fare is expensive at $6.50

2. The fare will be wasted since buses get caught in traffic. 

3. People will take the subway for a faster ride to Manhattan. 

 

What does building transfers at Lorimer and Atlantic have to do with extending the (G) , or ridership "soaring"? Who do you expect is going to use those transfers from the QBL? Demand to Brooklyn is not as high as to Manhattan, and it will probably never be so. People want Manhattan. It's bad enough you have people transferring to go to the Bronx. How does a (G) with transfers at Lorimer and Atlantic help those folks. For that same logic, I can extend the (G) to Coney Island and claim ridership will soar.

To address your point towards Deucey, you have capacity, but do not underestimate the crowds on the local trains. Add the maximum capacity allowed, and you'll still be stuck trying to meet demand at some point during the day. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to your express bus comments:

1. Express buses aren't made to serve low-income communities. Look at the demographics of communities along Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevards. 

2. It's still better than having to wait for unreliable buses, to backtrack on an  unreliable (R) train to Forest Hills, then take a train to Midtown because there's no Manhattan-bound service there. I don't think you realize that a person's trip does not end after getting off the train, in many cases. Many take buses into the QBL, and a good majority of those tend to be unreliable too. The express buses are very frequent during the rush and are reliable. During off-peak hours, there's half-hourly service. With the millions of delays and incidents, the express bus will still be faster than the subway. 

3. In the time it takes me to get to the (R) at Woodhaven Boulevard, I could be on the QM15 and already be somewhere in Long Island City, if not 34 Street. This is true almost anywhere the express buses run, even on the BxM11 under White Plains Road. As any Bronxite how much of pain it is just to get to Harlem, especially on weekends. The only groups of buses where you can claim this are the BM1-4, and the PM QM10. Outside of that, the express bus is typically the faster option over the local bus and subway counterparts. 

 

Also, you're fixating too much on the express bus aspect. Express bus improvements would help, but local bus service improvements are also necessary. It's almost as if the latter just flew over almost everyone's heads here. 

 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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9 minutes ago, Deucey said:

This is where I think people are mistakenly conflating two concepts. Connecting QBL is not an improvement; it’s an expansion.

you do know that when I said improve subway and bus service, I never specified anything. Meaning I didn't mention RBB at all when saying that 

Expansions can be improvements, just like improvements can be expansions, but unlike SAS, RBB isn’t relieving overcrowding anywhere. It’s adding more people onto an overcrowded trunk line and forcing them to go out of their way to not get on an express train - because of SRO capacity issues - and take just as long to get to midtown as taking the express bus sitting on that local train.

not gonna lie. I have to agree with you on this one. You opinion on RBB just gave me an idea to come up with a solution. But for now, let's think of it as a little connectionwith a huge consequence 

For the billions that could be spent on this, the express bus fare could be subsidized to $3/ride and run nonstop from Lefferts Bl (or the equivalent streets after Lefferts ends) and be more cost effective and efficient.

-_-(thumbs up)

 

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31 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

What does building transfers at Lorimer and Atlantic have to do with extending the (G) , or ridership "soaring"? Who do you expect is going to use those transfers from the QBL? Demand to Brooklyn is not as high as to Manhattan, and it will probably never be so. People want Manhattan. It's bad enough you have people transferring to go to the Bronx. How does a (G) with transfers at Lorimer and Atlantic help those folks. For that same logic, I can extend the (G) to Coney Island and claim ridership will soar.

To address your point towards Deucey, you have capacity, but do not underestimate the crowds on the local trains. Add the maximum capacity allowed, and you'll still be stuck trying to meet demand at some point during the day. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to your express bus comments:

1. Express buses aren't made to serve low-income communities. Look at the demographics of communities along Woodhaven and Cross Bay Boulevards. 

2. It's still better than having to wait for unreliable buses, to backtrack on an  unreliable (R) train to Forest Hills, then take a train to Midtown because there's no Manhattan-bound service there. I don't think you realize that a person's trip does not end after getting off the train, in many cases. Many take buses into the QBL, and a good majority of those tend to be unreliable too. The express buses are very frequent during the rush and are reliable. During off-peak hours, there's half-hourly service. With the millions of delays and incidents, the express bus will still be faster than the subway. 

3. In the time it takes me to get to the (R) at Woodhaven Boulevard, I could be on the QM15 and already be somewhere in Long Island City, if not 34 Street. This is true almost anywhere the express buses run, even on the BxM11 under White Plains Road. As any Bronxite how much of pain it is just to get to Harlem, especially on weekends. The only groups of buses where you can claim this are the BM1-4, and the PM QM10. Outside of that, the express bus is typically the faster option over the local bus and subway counterparts. 

 

Also, you're fixating too much on the express bus aspect. Express bus improvements would help, but local bus service improvements are also necessary. It's almost as if the latter just flew over almost everyone's heads here. 

 

I meant to say there would be more demand for it to go to QBL because it connects with OTHER LINES in doing so! If the (G) connects to more subway lines- as evident by its extension to Church Av, it SHOULD go to QBL! 

46 minutes ago, Deucey said:

This is where I think people are mistakenly conflating two concepts. Connecting QBL is not an improvement; it’s an expansion.

Expansions can be improvements, just like improvements can be expansions, but unlike SAS, RBB isn’t relieving overcrowding anywhere. It’s adding more people onto an overcrowded trunk line and forcing them to go out of their way to not get on an express train - because of SRO capacity issues - and take just as long to get to midtown as taking the express bus sitting on that local train.

For the billions that could be spent on this, the express bus fare could be subsidized to $3/ride and run nonstop from Lefferts Bl (or the equivalent streets after Lefferts ends) and be more cost effective and efficient.

I do agree with you about congestion but I pointed out two solutions that could potentially relieve congestion. 

1. Make the (Z) an express from Jamaica to Canal St. A third track will be constructed after Crescent, OR the line will be relocated to Jamaica Av to eliminate the sharp curve with the third track. 

2. The 63 St-Queens Bypass. Now I know this will only happen in the LONG-TERM only after SAS Phase 3 is open but this will actually relieve congestion as it will allow a faster commute for eastern Jamaica riders.

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

But but but...

if the express lines are at capacity and SRO while the locals have spare capacity, why aren’t people riding the local??

Let’s take it further:

If RBB is built and tied into the local tracks on QBL and the trains proposed to operate on RBB - (M) and (R) - are already QBL locals with spare capacity now, AND the expresses are at capacity and SRO, what’s to a) prevent people crowding to get on an express at your rebuilt Woodhaven or at 71st; and b) assuming that they cannot get on a (E)(F) because it’s SRO, they’re now taking just as long to get to B-way or 6 Av as the express bus via QMT or BBT, so what problem did you solve for the billions spent to not build a park?

It's because the expresses are FASTER THAN THE LOCALS! They will still take the express regardless of time savings. 

FYI only the (M) will go on the RBB, and the (R) will stay as-is. 

Firstly, the people there want ANY type of subway service, whether it is a local or express. Expresses DON'T have to be EVERYWHERE.

And if riders want an express? Take the (A) or (E)(F). (A) south of Rockaway Blvd, and (E)(F) at Woodhaven AND Roosevelt. 

Secondly, it will improve access from the Rockaways, opening up new shortcuts. But you see, the point of it is NOT TO PROVIDE FASTER SERVICE than the (E)(F) or the express bus even. The whole points to serve local neighborhoods as well as the former I mentioned. 

Edited by D to 96 St
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21 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

I meant to say there would be more demand for it to go to QBL because it connects with OTHER LINES in doing so! If the (G) connects to more subway lines- as evident by its extension to Church Av, it SHOULD go to QBL! 

How does an extension to elminate what was hands-down the least efficient termination procedure in the system at the other end of a line mean anything relative to the end we're talking about? People on QB want to go to Manhattan, not Manhattan Avenue. Why do you think the 11th st cut was built? Or the 63rd street connector? 

20 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

I do agree with you about congestion but I pointed out two solutions that could potentially relieve congestion. 

1. Make the (Z) an express from Jamaica to Canal St. A third track will be constructed after Crescent, OR the line will be relocated to Jamaica Av to eliminate the sharp curve with the third track. 

2. The 63 St-Queens Bypass. Now I know this will only happen in the LONG-TERM only after SAS Phase 3 is open but this will actually relieve congestion as it will allow a faster commute for eastern Jamaica riders.

I'm all for the bypass, but how does installing a track that allows trains to skip the areas we're talking about in any way help transit access in said areas?

The Jamaica line doesn't need express service. It needs skip-stop to be ended. The time savings commuters will realize in shortened headways because of that will vastly outweigh any savings from express service. If you feel bad for getting rid of express, then send the (J) local from Bway Junction to Marcy, and the (Z) express -- the stops from Myrtle to Marcy need more service anyway. 

25 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

It's because the expresses are FASTER THAN THE LOCALS! They will still take the express regardless of time savings. 

The time difference between taking the (M)(R) vs (E) from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza is about two minutes, and that's before we factor in delays at 36th street on the express tracks. The difference is all in the perception of greater speed. I wish there was a way we could demonstrate that to commuters. 

25 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

Firstly, the people there want ANY type of subway service, whether it is a local or express. Expresses DON'T have to be EVERYWHERE.

Everybody in New York wants subway service. The fact of the matter is that given the size of the un/underserved population along RBB, and the time savings that such a project would get them, other projects would be able to bring more to the city than this one. There are dense areas of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens (think 3rd avenue, Utica Avenue and Northern Boulevard) that have no subway service whatsoever. They should get first priority simply because the good we'd be doing them would have more impact. In planning we have to make choices like this -- money isn't infinite. We have to pursue the projects that will bring the greatest good for the greatest number, which the RBB will not. 

Look, a few months ago, I was walking in Forest Park, and hiked down to the old ROW to see how it was doing. The state of affairs -- trees in the tracks, ties rotting, the corridor being reintegrated into nature -- made me sad. In that moment, I too wanted to reactivate the line; to see trains rolling south towards the beaches. But rationally, I knew that couldn't happen. There are other, bigger, fish to fry at the moment. Whatever your connection of sentiment may be with the line, you must dissociate -- see the big picture. For it's this exact mentality of pet projects that has wrought our current transportational disaster. 

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And the thing is for those in the rockaways how you gonna force them to go to manhattan to go to forest hills 

Edited by BreeddekalbL

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SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

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6 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

im confused

Im saying for those in the rockaways when on subway, regarding going to forest hills from rockaway most logical route should be to go north but they have to go west to go back east

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4 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

Come to think of it, I said something similar a few pages back

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4 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

This didn't devolve to buses vs trains; this shifted from "wouldn't it be awesome and here's how to do it" to "dude, your idea is nice but ludicrous because it's creating more problems instead of solving the current ones so here's what to add to your thought process to make your idea less likely to not solve problems."

Sorry if some of us don't let sentiment guide our thought process all the time.

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4 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

And the thing is for those in the rockaways how you gonna force them to go to manhattan to go to forest hills 

Nobody is. That is what the Q52/Q53 are for. 

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