New Fare Payment Thread

[bobtehpanda]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually am not a fan of those things.  The  ran a pilot test and they were concerned about them banging into trees and the like.

They only work really well on express routes, since DDs have the issue of slow dwell times if there's a lot of on/off activity. It might be good cause there are more seats; Sound Transit in Seattle has them for exactly that reason.

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

If there are multiple readers on the bus, and there's an error, you can walk to another one on the bus and tap there. This is how they do it in other places.

You can't even do fare refills on the bus today, so why is that even a concern?

You can honestly say on a B46 or Q44 your not going to have multiple people double and triple taping. With a line behind them?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, bobtehpanda said:

They only work really well on express routes, since DDs have the issue of slow dwell times if there's a lot of on/off activity. It might be good cause there are more seats; Sound Transit in Seattle has them for exactly that reason.

They were already tested here, remember?

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, RailRunRob said:

You can honestly say on a B46 or Q44 your not going to have multiple people double and triple taping. With a line behind them. 

Ah, yes, the "New York is special" argument again.

If it's random spot checks instead of bus drivers getting assaulted for asking nicely to pay the fare, the validator is the source of truth. You have nothing to fear from a validator check if you have tapped in or have money on the pass.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

You can honestly say on a B46 or Q44 your not going to have multiple people double and triple taping. With a line behind them?

Oh please.  Unless they're only going to have one machine at the front of the bus, I don't see the problem.  It's been successful in numerous cities now for well over a decade and I don't understand why the  can't get with the program.

[RailRunRob]

9 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Ah, yes, the "New York is special" argument again.

If it's random spot checks instead of bus drivers getting assaulted for asking nicely to pay the fare, the validator is the source of truth. You have nothing to fear from a validator check if you have tapped in or have money on the pass.

 

  It's not a special argument. It's a you do what's best for riders argument and what works best for your agency argument. One size doesn't fit all So you roll out technology without localization?  Technolgy should be familiar, clear, helpful and self-explanatory no?  At the end of the day we'll see what the MTA go's with your way or the other.

[RailRunRob]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please.  Unless they're only going to have one machine at the front of the bus, I don't see the problem.  It's been successful in numerous cities now for well over a decade and I don't understand why the  can't get with the program.

Give the analysis then?  What's the ridership in those Cities? London is the only one I've been to with a number of routes and riders. I've been to quite a few cities.  I'm not arguing the new fare standard more implementation for the NY market.  

[RailRunRob]

Bottom line MTA needs to get the new standard in place 1st and foremost. We can go back and forth all day the only way we're going to know is to test it. That'll give us the story from the source. 

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually am not a fan of those things.  The  ran a pilot test and they were concerned about them banging into trees and the like.

That's understandable since the UK specifically doesn't have overhanging traffic signals, etc.

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

If there are multiple readers on the bus, and there's an error, you can walk to another one on the bus and tap there. This is how they do it in other places.

You can't even do fare refills on the bus today, so why is that even a concern?

I saw that in VA (Fairfax Conector) , you were able to tap your card and if you didn't have enough money you could add value to it right there. 

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually am not a fan of those things.  The  ran a pilot test and they were concerned about them banging into trees and the like.

That was the experience out west. The old RTD had them and took them out of service just because of the rampant tree impacts.

But out here, since Megabus and the tourist companies run them - and they’re low floor - it should be reconsidered on an SBS route’s local (M15, BX12).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Deucey said:

That was the experience out west. The old RTD had them and took them out of service just because of the rampant tree impacts.

But out here, since Megabus and the tourist companies run them - and they’re low floor - it should be reconsidered on an SBS route’s local (M15, BX12).

That depends on the route.  Tour buses are an entirely different animal.

[LTA1992]

All of you naysayers are acting like this is going to be the card from WMATA. A POS that actually will die on you if rubbed the wrong way. 

Compare that to the Parisian Navigo pass. Chip card that doesn't even need to be taken out of your wallet to validate on a reader. 

I've been saying this since the first news of the NFPS surfaced two years ago. By placing readers on the buses themselves, it will render SBS obsolete. Place two readers at each entry. Doing that, you can institute all door boarding on EVERY route in the city. These cards are not going to mess up every two seconds.

 

How do I know? Already used the type of card the MTA is going with. Much better than SmarTrip I assure you. With its non-chip shenanigans. 

[RailRunRob]

15 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

All of you naysayers are acting like this is going to be the card from WMATA. A POS that actually will die on you if rubbed the wrong way. 

Compare that to the Parisian Navigo pass. Chip card that doesn't even need to be taken out of your wallet to validate on a reader. 

I've been saying this since the first news of the NFPS surfaced two years ago. By placing readers on the buses themselves, it will render SBS obsolete. Place two readers at each entry. Doing that, you can institute all door boarding on EVERY route in the city. These cards are not going to mess up every two seconds.

 

How do I know? Already used the type of card the MTA is going with. Much better than SmarTrip I assure you. With its non-chip shenanigans. 

Your correct Paris uses a different standard I did Lisbon a few years back they had the same standard.  The cards have a CPU in card as opposed to memory only so it's not fully based on the 14443 standard.  Again from my POV it's implementation it's what I do for a living.  HI and UX we even just started doing UX /HI with a car maker this year. Working Cabin Interiors steering wheel button placements navigation placement passenger flow. Understanding the user is a must. I say this to point out there's a process to Implementing these types of technologies. Processes and multidimensional at that. One of my guys here was looking at the conversation here yesterday this is a guy that's worked in Industrial design for 30 years Car's, Transport you name it. 1st things he asked was ridership numbers bus passenger flow and pointed out familiarity with tap and pay here in the US and culture! Now I agree it's going tap and pay there's no question. Understand when you ride a bus in London, Paris, Seattle or Toronto there successes is from years of testing, issues, and mishaps all behind the success. I did Europe for the first time Second-year of University and a lot of these Cities already had TTP or electronic fare options we're talking almost 20 years ago. So we're seeing the end result here. Europeans as with Asian countries are very used to tapping to pay psychologically and culturally they've been using credit cards options for the better part of a decade. We just got chip and pin like two years ago? And without RF options at that. Id have to ask that question as well. Metrocards came in at a time people were already used to swiping. People can re-learn Of course but we know this goes against human nature change!  Every implementation of this here in the US is on a much smaller scale what Paris has like 70 bus routes? The MTA is the big-time not this here at home but abroad as well.  What's the competitive analysis? 

 

• What Cities use similar technologies?
• What are their fleet sizes?
• Route totals
• Issues ?
• MTA data and connectivity infrastructure
• Ridership and rider flow?
• Rider archetypes ?
• Pain and gains of rollouts?
• Phases and rollout?

This might sound foreign to some (Looking at VG8) but there is a protocol to these types of things preparation and rollout. Everything I'm hearing here is kinda shooting from the Hip from my POV. Maybe I'm getting old but when you're tasked with building and designing something from inception you tend to have to cover all bases and possibilities. Just get with the program doesn't work you tend to waste time and money from experience. 

[itmaybeokay]

On 10/23/2017 at 12:35 PM, bobtehpanda said:

It's a solved process in other cities, which rely on the random enforcement officers you see on SBS services. New York is not some kind of special snowflake city filled with a special kind of idiot.

You're not arguing for SBS style fare collection on the subway, are you? 

It *does not* work on a system this crowded. Just ask the other busiest metros worldwide:

Beijing Metro: entry/exit read of chip card, distance based fare. 
Tokyo Metro: entry read of card, two types of RFID card accepted
Shanghai Metro: entry read of RFID card
Seoul Subway: entry read of RFID card or Smartphone NFC
Moscow Metro: entry read of RFID card or Smartphone NFC
Guangzhou Metro: entry read of RFID card or RFID token for single ride
NYC Subway: Not explaining this
Hong Kong MTR: entry read of RFID card. 

Edit: Upon review I see the conversation got shifted toward buses, but I'm posting this anyway because the comparison with peer systems might be valuable for someone and I already looked all that up. 

 

For my piece - I think you should get an RFID-enabled farecard that is secretly very similar to a credit-giftcard. Seriously. Set it up so you can add it to apple pay, samsung pay, android pay, altair pay, whatever. The backends of these systems have been tested ad infinitum. 

Most people will just use their phones. You've got that card in your wallet if all else fails.

In any event, gotta be RFID/NFC. It works for basically every other city with a comparable system. 

 

[Around the Horn]

Well its official now: The TFL/Cubic solution will replace the Metro Card

Cubic Wins Contract from New York MTA to Replace Iconic MetroCard System with World-Class New Fare Payment System

Quote

SAN DIEGO, Oct. 25, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Cubic Corporation (NYSE:  CUB) today announced that its Cubic Transportation Systems (CTS) business division was selected by the New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) to replace the iconic MetroCard with a proven, next-generation fare payment system similar to that used on the bus, Tube and rail services operated by Transport for London (TfL). The base contract award is $539.5 million with additional options worth $33.9 million.  The award has been approved by the MTA's Board and is subject to contract finalization.

Today's vote is a tremendous win for New Yorkers, paving the way for flexible payment options, a streamlined trip through the region's public transit, and updated equipment that will help save money in operating costs. Together with Cubic, we look forward to building the MTA of tomorrow," said Joseph J. Lhota, chairman of the MTA.

"We are extremely pleased with being awarded this contract, which reinforces Cubic's position as the industry leader in advanced transportation payment and information solutions," said Brad Feldmann, president and chief executive officer of Cubic Corporation.

"Cubic helped revolutionize fare payment with the MetroCard's introduction in 1992 and we are honored to play an important role in the future of mobility in New York," said Matt Cole, president of Cubic Transportation Systems. "Cubic's solution not only provides customers with a better and faster way to pay for transit, but also creates expanded economic opportunity for New Yorkers and job creation across the state through the involvement of minority and women-owned enterprises to help implement the new system." 

The new system allows customers to create personalized transit accounts to see ride history, check balances, add value as well as report lost or stolen cards to protect their funds. They will also have the option of using payment media such as credit and debit cards and mobile devices at the bus or turnstile, instead of purchasing and adding value to a separate fare card, to offer a retail payment experience to transit. For those customers without a bank card or who prefer not to use one, a contactless card option will still be available with the same account management convenience features. Mobile phones can also be used like ticket vending machines to check account balances and recharge fare accounts anywhere. As a result, customers will experience greater convenience and shorter lines, allowing them to move faster through the transit system. 

The initiative will reduce costs for the MTA by significantly reducing the dispensing of fare media, will streamline fare calculation and phase out 20-year-old equipment that is more costly to maintain each year. Ultimately, the new system will provide an enhanced and integrated travel experience across the region including seamless access to Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) and Metro-North Rail Road. 

"We are thrilled that Western New York's productive workforce will contribute to the New York MTA capital program," said Tom Kucharski, President and CEO of Invest Buffalo Niagara. "This innovative plan will help to stimulate economies all over New York State, bringing new jobs and opportunities to residents and businesses in the Buffalo Niagara region." 

"Modernizing the fare payment system is a boon for riders.  It will make public transit more convenient, more accessible and more efficient," said John Raskin, executive director of the Riders Alliance.  "The new fare payment system will also save money for the MTA, and that savings can be used to improve transit operations for millions of daily riders.  Moving on from the MetroCard will be a win-win for riders and the MTA."

Cubic will be responsible for the design, integration, supply and implementation of the new fare payment system; associated services for platform hosting, hardware and software maintenance; and transition services including supplemental call center support. Equipment will include fare validators and new configurable ticket vending machines in the MTA's 472 subway stations and 6,000 buses. The contract includes an option to support LIRR and Metro-North Rail Road with the purchase of additional validation and vending equipment.

Cubic's partners statewide will provide manufacturing, call center and marketing services to the MTA. Transport for London (TfL), operator of the world's largest open payment and contactless-based fare collection system, and Mastercard, a global leader in financial services with a strong New York presence, are also Cubic partners in the contract.

Shashi Verma, chief technology officer at TfL, added, "As cities become smarter and more reliant on public transport, technology like this provides customers with a simple and convenient way of paying the right fare at the right time, without the need to purchase a ticket. This contactless ticketing system is helping commuters all around the world and it's great that New Yorkers will benefit from the technology."

New York's transit system customers will still be able to use MetroCards during the transition.  

https://www.cubic.com/News/Press-Releases/ID/1918/Cubic-Wins-Contract-from-New-York-MTA-to-Replace-Iconic-MetroCard-System-with-World-Class-New-Fare-Payment-System

(emphasis mine)

A demonstration video can be found here (https://cubic.app.box.com/s/0417q4vjk62lgnt41veys7bpxitlwjs9/file/227406678209). Note that the system works for MTA-branded contactless cards, Credit cards, phones and smart watches.

I've yet to see any renderings of bus fareboxes...

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, itmaybeokay said:

 

For my piece - I think you should get an RFID-enabled farecard that is secretly very similar to a credit-giftcard. Seriously. Set it up so you can add it to apple pay, samsung pay, android pay, altair pay, whatever. The backends of these systems have been tested ad infinitum. 

Most people will just use their phones. You've got that card in your wallet if all else fails.

In any event, gotta be RFID/NFC. It works for basically every other city with a comparable system. 

 

3

CTA has something like that in place with the Ventra it's a prepaid MasterCard as well. I believe  Cubix designed this standard as well.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Well its official now: The TFL/Cubic solution will replace the Metro Card

Cubic Wins Contract from New York MTA to Replace Iconic MetroCard System with World-Class New Fare Payment System

https://www.cubic.com/News/Press-Releases/ID/1918/Cubic-Wins-Contract-from-New-York-MTA-to-Replace-Iconic-MetroCard-System-with-World-Class-New-Fare-Payment-System

(emphasis mine)

A demonstration video can be found here (https://cubic.app.box.com/s/0417q4vjk62lgnt41veys7bpxitlwjs9/file/227406678209). Note that the system works for MTA-branded contactless cards, Credit cards, phones and smart watches.

I've yet to see any renderings of bus fareboxes...

It's a proven system and it's worked well in my experiences in London.

[itmaybeokay]

15 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

CTA has something like that in place with the Ventra it's a prepaid MasterCard as well. I believe  Cubix designed this standard as well.

 

17 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Cubic's partners statewide will provide manufacturing, call center and marketing services to the MTA. Transport for London (TfL), operator of the world's largest open payment and contactless-based fare collection system, and Mastercard, a global leader in financial services with a strong New York presence, are also Cubic partners in the contract.

Seems like they might actually be doing exactly that. 

In any event - excited to tap into the subway with my watch... whenever the hell this is actually implemented 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

41 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

 

In any event - excited to tap into the subway with my watch... whenever the hell this is actually implemented 

I don't want ANYTHING from the  connected to my credit or debit cards.  I had $6.50 stolen from me last night due to their lovely machines, and the night before that two MVM machines at the 86th and Broadway train station were apparently out of order when I wanted to refill my card. I was freaking out thinking something was wrong with my debit card because the machines kept saying that the transaction couldn't be processed.

The one week that I go with a pay-per-ride and of course this nonsense happens.  I was taking the M86 crosstown last night. I put my Metrocard in to get my receipt.  The damn machine says "INVALID", so I try the one next to it, and it gives me a receipt and then shows me my balance, where I realize that I was charged $2.75 twice.  After a stop at Whole Foods, I get on a BxM1 express bus to go home and see that the machine has taken off TWO transfers and $7.50 instead of the $3.75 difference, so that "INVALID" message wasn't really invalid at all.  Seems like everyone that tried to get a receipt at the machine that ripped me off had the same problem too.

I think I may opt for a smart card that can be loaded.  If they were quick about issuing refunds it wouldn't be a big deal, but they take months to give you back the money that they steal from you.  

[RailRunRob]

45 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

 

Seems like they might actually be doing exactly that. 

In any event - excited to tap into the subway with my watch... whenever the hell this is actually implemented 

I use my Apple watch all the time at shops and even to pull cash out of the ATM. I used it as well in London via Apple pay. Easy peasy I love it!

 

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't want ANYTHING from the  connected to my credit or debit cards.  I had $6.50 stolen from me last night due to their lovely machines, and the night before that two MVM machines at the 86th and Broadway train station were apparently out of order when I wanted to refill my card. I was freaking out thinking something was wrong with my debit card because the machines kept saying that the transaction couldn't be processed.

The one week that I go with a pay-per-ride and of course this nonsense happens.  I was taking the M86 crosstown last night. I put my Metrocard in to get my receipt.  The damn machine says "INVALID", so I try the one next to it, and it gives me a receipt and then shows me my balance, where I realize that I was charged $2.75 twice.  After a stop at Whole Foods, I get on a BxM1 express bus to go home and see that the machine has taken off TWO transfers and $7.50 instead of the $3.75 difference, so that "INVALID" message wasn't really invalid at all.  Seems like everyone that tried to get a receipt at the machine that ripped me off had the same problem too.

I think I may opt for a smart card that can be loaded.  If they were quick about issuing refunds it wouldn't be a big deal, but they take months to give you back the money that they steal from you.  

Just refill at the machine the same way you do in London if it's based on that system. No biggie.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I use my Apple watch all the time at shops and even to pull cash out of the ATM. I used it as well in London via Apple pay. Easy peasy I love it!

 

Just refill at the machine the same way you do in London if it's based on that system. No biggie.

Yeah but what is your Apple watch hooked up to? Cards or something similar to PayPal?

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah but what is your Apple watch hooked up to? Cards or something similar to PayPal?

Hooks into your bank card.. So to start Tap to Pay via your phone/watch would just be a debit or credit transaction deduction via the financial institution.  You'd put your card information via the MTA system if you want auto refills to your transit card. Or the machine if you didn't want to do that which is understandable. The cool thing in London with the Oyster is you can customize your card so if you lose it you can lock it or set it up with a passcode. It's kinda cool I hope the MTA brings all that over as well and not half-ass it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, RailRunRob said:

Hooks into your bank card.. So to start Tap to Pay via your phone/watch would just be a debit or credit transaction deduction via the financial institution.  You'd put your card information via the MTA system if you want auto refills to your transit card. Or the machine if you didn't want to do that which is understandable. The cool thing in London with the Oyster is you can customize your card so if you lose it you can lock it or set it up with a passcode. It's kinda cool I hope the MTA brings all that over as well and not half-ass it.

That's fine, but I don't trust them.  They just don't maintain their machines enough for me to go around wanting my bank account hooked up like that.  I don't do that with anything, and I don't do any autopay either.  When Zappos had that breach a few years back, I immediately called up Amex and had them replace my card then and there.  I don't take any chances, especially given how quickly data can be stolen.

[RailRunRob]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's fine, but I don't trust them.  They just don't maintain their machines enough for me to go around wanting my bank account hooked up like that.  I don't do that with anything, and I don't do any autopay either.  When Zappos had that breach a few years back, I immediately called up Amex and had them replace my card then and there.  I don't take any chances, especially given how quickly data can be stolen.

Hey I'm with you. Especially in this climate after Equifax. Yeah, Amex is good with that. I had some issues after a trip to Aruba in May they replaced my card at the 1st signs of something suspicious. Apple Pay in my experience is way more secure everytime The device is used for payment it generates unique code just for that transaction. So it doesn't use your exact card information for authentication ive had more issue with Businesses not being up to snuff with chip and pin and still swiping. Kinda one of the reasons I tap to pay were I can. Now entering anything in the MTA systems that I understand I'd be a little leery as well. Nowadays nothing is ever fully secure just the reality of the new world we live in.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

Hey I'm with you. Especially in this climate after Equifax. Yeah, Amex is good with that. I had some issues after a trip to Aruba in May they replace my card at the 1st signs of something suspicious. Apple Pay in my experience is way more secure everytime The device is used for payment it generates unique code just for that transaction. So it doesn't use your exact card information for authentication ive had more issue with Businesses not being up to snuff with chip and pin and still swiping. Kinda one of the reasons I tap to pay were I can. Now entering anything in the MTA systems that I understand I'd be a little leery as well. Nowadays nothing is ever fully secure just the reality of the new world we live in.

Yeah based on what you've told me your set up makes sense.