How to improve the NYC express bus system

[Jamall Hayden]

 I’m not against subway expansions they’re good for the long term. The improvement of express bus service is a great solution for the near term. My solutions would be to have a cheap off peak fare $3.75, create park and rides in select areas and create more H.O.V lanes catering towards M.T.A buses on local streets and strictly enforcing it! 

                                                         A lot of money is going towards fixing/upgrading roads bridges e.t.c due to recent infrastructure funding the M.T.A could use this as an opportunity to work with the NY D.O.T to find a ways to make them more transit friendly. On highways have current h.o.v lanes cater towards M.T.A buses and or potentially find new areas to do so like Hylan boulevard (Staten Island) and Union turnpike and Merrick boulevard (Queens) make sure it’s STRICTLY enforced. Be creative make more “Super Express” routes like the Sim 8x which originate from park and rides and make even fewer or no stops to Manhattan with certain S.B.S features like off board fare payment and the new strictly enforced bus lanes for a faster one seat commute! 

 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The park & ride model may work in other cities where there's a lot more sprawl and less dense areas with little to no street grids, but that wouldn't work here. As for the off-peak fare, I wold lower it, but I wouldn't lower it that much. I would consider having a $5, $5.50 fare during off-peak hours to try to entice people to use the express bus, and have a similar ad campaign to what they're doing with the expanded City Ticket (probably even more robust). 

Issues with the express bus network also stem from old service patterns, a lot of them unchanged from the PBL days. What made sense 20,30,40+ years ago is no longer viable, either due to ridership and demographic changes (growths and losses), traffic, and overall resources. Queens' network is overdue for an overhaul, and I would look at that separately, not combined with the local bus routes like the MTA has done in that first draft (which BTW, was overall disastrous on the express bus side).

The off-board fare payment isn't gonna be a thing in a few years as OMNY will be expanded to replace the MetroCard. So it will still be faster than swiping, although I do think that some kinks need to be worked out currently with the OMNY system. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[paulrivera]

I can only speak about the Bronx express buses, but based on what I see, park and rides aren't really necessary here. The routings are relatively efficient, but it's more of a matter of building demand for some of the services.

The only routes I see that need real tweaking would be the BxM4 (break up the Woodlawn and Grand Concourse routes during rush hour) and BxM8 (break up the Pelham Bay and City Island trips). The Bronx redesign would have done both route changes, but would also have made both routes (and also most of the other Bronx expresses) run peak direction only, which would have really hurt ridership. The others I don't think need to be tweaked, they just need more riders.

But I wouldn't mind seeing some HOV lanes on the Deegan and the Bruckner. Whenever the Cross Bronx or GWB are backed up that logjam always affects the Deegan, and the Bruckner is basically gridlocked every weekday afternoon without fail.

[checkmatechamp13]

The SIM4X/8X are terrible models (and I say that as someone who uses both). The short-turn should be the local version and the super express should run the full length of the route, not the other way around. 

[B35 via Church]

On top of what's been said here thus far, reducing the fare of the express bus won't eliminate the stigma that's attached to them... That's part of the problem also.

[Jamall Hayden]

What is the stigma surrounding express routes? How would you suggest getting rid of the stigma?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The service going back 10+ years ago has been extremely unreliable, which is one reason people haven't been using them as much as they used to. In addition to long waits, the trips now take much longer. The fare at $6.75 for what we are getting is not justifiable and it is the main reason I started my advocacy group. The system doesn't need a gazillion tweaks. Some lines could be tweaked sure, but that doesn't matter if the buses are running whenever, not to mention constant trips cancelled. This has eroded trust in the service. No one is going to pay more for poorer service.  

They already re-designed the SIM lines, and there are still long waits with missing trips and trips starting late, so the notion that all that is needed is a re-design is a farce. We need better dispatching and schedules that are more accurate. When the runtimes are too generous, the  has to be hounded to update them. 

Right now, we have a situation where people want to drive and there is battle between drivers and those using transit. Buses (express and local) are suffering from bus lanes being clogged with vehicles, bus stops being clogged and no enforcement of anything. Redesigns won't address any of these things that are plaguing service and when you have buses that are at the terminal on-time constantly starting late, the trips just take longer and longer, so there are a number of issues. For some trips, I've had people in my group resort to driving off-peak because it was cheaper for them to drive into Manhattan with their family than pay $6.75 for each person. That's another problem. We will see what congestion pricing brings and if it gets more people out of their cars and on transit.

 

On 2/15/2022 at 2:30 AM, paulrivera said:

I can only speak about the Bronx express buses, but based on what I see, park and rides aren't really necessary here. The routings are relatively efficient, but it's more of a matter of building demand for some of the services.

The only routes I see that need real tweaking would be the BxM4 (break up the Woodlawn and Grand Concourse routes during rush hour) and BxM8 (break up the Pelham Bay and City Island trips). The Bronx redesign would have done both route changes, but would also have made both routes (and also most of the other Bronx expresses) run peak direction only, which would have really hurt ridership. The others I don't think need to be tweaked, they just need more riders.

But I wouldn't mind seeing some HOV lanes on the Deegan and the Bruckner. Whenever the Cross Bronx or GWB are backed up that logjam always affects the Deegan, and the Bruckner is basically gridlocked every weekday afternoon without fail.

BxM4 riders were clear in that they don't want the route broken up and signed petitions to this, though I agree that traveling down Grand Concourse takes a lot longer. The problem is the  doesn't want to provide Grand Concourse with an express bus 7 days a week, and that's what the riders want, so if they really wanted to improve that line, they would come up with something better than what they proposed, while keeping service to Woodlawn and the Concourse 7 days a week. They tried years ago to speed up service by consolidating stops. Vision Zero has taken away any gains made there.

City Island doesn't have enough ridership to have those trips skip the rest of the route, and quite frankly, we're talking about seven stops after City Island. What could work is a Super Express that only serves Pelham Bay and then runs non-stop, but the time savings would be minimal. As it is, you have City Island residents that drive to Pelham Bay for express bus service, so they should expand the City Island trips to entice more usage in both City Island and Pelham Bay and you can do that without having to add more service. That line is one of the few where people tend to drive and park. That last stop, you have people from Soundview and Shorehaven that drive and park and get the BxM8.

HOV Lanes have been shot down on both the Bruckner and Deegan. Inquired about that numerous times. The backup from the Deegan is mainly from the GWB traffic, which they are already working to address with the new lanes Northbound. Nothing will happen with the Bruckner while construction is taking place.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

42 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

BxM4 riders were clear in that they don't want the route broken up and signed petitions to this, though I agree that traveling down Grand Concourse takes a lot longer. The problem is the  doesn't want to provide Grand Concourse with an express bus 7 days a week, and that's what the riders want, so if they really wanted to improve that line, they would come up with something better than what they proposed, while keeping service to Woodlawn and the Concourse 7 days a week. They tried years ago to speed up service by consolidating stops. Vision Zero has taken away any gains made there.

Yea, the Concourse has been traffic calmed pretty much to death, which bogs down the southbound trips especially. The northbound trips can at least use the main road if no one needs those stops, so coming back from Manhattan isn't so bad if you get a B/O that's familiar enough with the Concourse...

[NewFlyer 230]

I can’t speak for any other borough besides Queens, but as others have mentioned, the Queens express bus network is so antiquated and long overdue for a redesign.

I do like the idea of an off peak fare maybe around $4.50 to match the city ticket price for LIRR. I think in a lot of lower income areas the price can be a huge factor as to why people don’t use express buses even if they are going where people need to go.

Here are some routing ideas I had for the Queens express bus system system.

QM1: I would keep this route mostly the same, however it would have more of a purpose since I would take the QM5 off Union Tpke and the QM6 would stop picking up passengers past 188th street. 
I would keep this route weekdays only, because my modified QM4, QM5 and QM6’s services would be able to cover the route when it’s not running.  

QM3: Needs more service than what is currently offered. I think the MTA has been sleeping on the potential of this route big time as some people don’t live near the LIRR or want to take the Q12 to the  . 
 

QM4: I was thinking of two possible routing for the QM4 past Jewel Ave & 164th street. 
Plan A is to have the QM4 run up to the Horace Harding and then along the Horace Harding to 188th Street and terminate where the QM1 does like many people have suggested in the past.

However plan B would be to have the QM4 run south on 164th Street to 73rd Ave and run along 73rd Ave to 188th street which would be the first and last stop. 
 

The QM5 I always believed had no business running along Union Turnpike since it has to do this weird backtrack just to then head back to Manhattan which is why I would give the QM1 the responsibility of serving Union Turnpike between 188th street to Queens Blvd. 

So instead of the QM5 turning south onto 188th Street to go to Union Turnpike I would have it head north on 188th street to the Horace Harding and then from there I would have it get on the highway to have it run to Manhattan which would save it lots of time from having to run along Union Turnpike & Union Turnpike. 
I was also thinking of the possibility of having the QM5 make stops along the Horace Harding at Utopia Parkway, 164th street, Kissena Blvd & finally Main Street just to provide more alternatives for those heading to the city. 
 

The QM6 would have the same routing but during the weekdays I would have buses make no stops past 188th street to Manhattan because the QM1 would serve Union Turnpike between 188th street and Queens Blvd. 

 

I know I may get some criticism for this but I would eliminate the QM10 and QM11 in favor of having the QM12 take over it’s routing along 62nd & 63rd drives and then I would have it run down it normal routing along Yellowstone but instead of having it continue down Yellowstone to Woodhaven Blvd, I would have it follow the Q23 routing through Forest Hills.

I would have the QM21 run deeper into SE Queens. I would get rid of its loop around Rochdale Village with buses instead heading continuing south along Guy Brewer to 137th Ave. I would have it continue on 137th Ave to Farmers to the Conduit. From the Conduit I would have it run south along  Springfield Blvd to 147th Ave which would be the first and last stops. 

 

I was also thinking about a potential express route (QM19) along 147the Ave and Rockaway Blvd in SE Queens. It would start on Hook Creek Blvd run along 147th Ave to Rockaway Blvd and then along Rockaway Blvd to the Van Wyck and from there continue to the city via Queens Blvd and L.I.E

 

I think the x63 needs to be modified because it’s run time is way too long and Merrick Blvd isn’t a street for a express bus. I really think it should stick to servicing Laurelton and Rosedale only. 

Once again these are just a few ideas I had to offer better service to areas that lack service as well as modify a few routes to make them faster. As for the other routes I either think they are fine or I just don’t know what improvements they may need. 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I can’t speak for any other borough besides Queens, but as others have mentioned, the Queens express bus network is so antiquated and long overdue for a redesign.

I do like the idea of an off peak fare maybe around $4.50 to match the city ticket price for LIRR. I think in a lot of lower income areas the price can be a huge factor as to why people don’t use express buses even if they are going where people need to go.

Here are some routing ideas I had for the Queens express bus system system.

QM1: I would keep this route mostly the same, however it would have more of a purpose since I would take the QM5 off Union Tpke and the QM6 would stop picking up passengers past 188th street. 
I would keep this route weekdays only, because my modified QM4, QM5 and QM6’s services would be able to cover the route when it’s not running.  

QM3: Needs more service than what is currently offered. I think the MTA has been sleeping on the potential of this route big time as some people don’t live near the LIRR or want to take the Q12 to the  . 
 

QM4: I was thinking of two possible routing for the QM4 past Jewel Ave & 164th street. 
Plan A is to have the QM4 run up to the Horace Harding and then along the Horace Harding to 188th Street and terminate where the QM1 does like many people have suggested in the past.

However plan B would be to have the QM4 run south on 164th Street to 73rd Ave and run along 73rd Ave to 188th street which would be the first and last stop. 
 

The QM5 I always believed had no business running along Union Turnpike since it has to do this weird backtrack just to then head back to Manhattan which is why I would give the QM1 the responsibility of serving Union Turnpike between 188th street to Queens Blvd. 

So instead of the QM5 turning south onto 188th Street to go to Union Turnpike I would have it head north on 188th street to the Horace Harding and then from there I would have it get on the highway to have it run to Manhattan which would save it lots of time from having to run along Union Turnpike & Union Turnpike. 
I was also thinking of the possibility of having the QM5 make stops along the Horace Harding at Utopia Parkway, 164th street, Kissena Blvd & finally Main Street just to provide more alternatives for those heading to the city. 
 

The QM6 would have the same routing but during the weekdays I would have buses make no stops past 188th street to Manhattan because the QM1 would serve Union Turnpike between 188th street and Queens Blvd. 

 

I know I may get some criticism for this but I would eliminate the QM10 and QM11 in favor of having the QM12 take over it’s routing along 62nd & 63rd drives and then I would have it run down it normal routing along Yellowstone but instead of having it continue down Yellowstone to Woodhaven Blvd, I would have it follow the Q23 routing through Forest Hills.

I would have the QM21 run deeper into SE Queens. I would get rid of its loop around Rochdale Village with buses instead heading continuing south along Guy Brewer to 137th Ave. I would have it continue on 137th Ave to Farmers to the Conduit. From the Conduit I would have it run south along  Springfield Blvd to 147th Ave which would be the first and last stops. 

 

I was also thinking about a potential express route (QM19) along 147the Ave and Rockaway Blvd in SE Queens. It would start on Hook Creek Blvd run along 147th Ave to Rockaway Blvd and then along Rockaway Blvd to the Van Wyck and from there continue to the city via Queens Blvd and L.I.E

 

I think the x63 needs to be modified because it’s run time is way too long and Merrick Blvd isn’t a street for a express bus. I really think it should stick to servicing Laurelton and Rosedale only. 

Once again these are just a few ideas I had to offer better service to areas that lack service as well as modify a few routes to make them faster. As for the other routes I either think they are fine or I just don’t know what improvements they may need. 

 

You obviously aren't aware of the ridership base on some of these routes. The QM21 riders would go crazy with any sort of service cut.  I have quite a few QM21 riders in my group, and they were downright pissed about the changes the  proposed. It loops the way that it does because it serves that huge complex. Rochdale Village consists of a number of residential buildings and you would be cutting off access to some of those buildings. 

I don't understand how the QM10 and QM11 are supposed to served with just the QM12 when the QM11 serves Downtown.  Different ridership bases, not to mention nothing would be serving LeFrak City.

The QM1, QM5, QM6 proposal only makes sense if more service doesn't need to be added to make that work.

 

[B35 via Church]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:58 AM, Jamall Hayden said:

What is the stigma surrounding express routes? How would you suggest getting rid of the stigma?

Being blunt, the stigma that has plagued & continues to plague the express bus in this city is that they're exclusively for uppity rich snobs that think they're too good to ride the (local) buses & subways.... You have to consider the history as to why express buses even came into fruition..... This is how it is viewed by outsiders.

Nowadays it has less to do with [rich vs poor] & more to do with ["do I know you, or not"].... The term you'll generally hear thrown around are "regulars".... You have current riders that help perpetuate that stigma by frowning upon those that board express buses that aren't regulars.... YMMV, but the energy is palpable if you're not a regular rider of ((whatever)) route.... That should never be a thing when it comes to public transportation, but the reality is that it is.... That is why I say simply lowering the fare won't eliminate that stigma.... As long as express bus patronage is treated by passengers (of course, not all) like it's some exclusive club you have to be accepted or initiated into... You get rid of that by having an influx of riders, city-wide a] utilize the things in general, regardless of the fare & b] do away with, or not even possess the regressive mindset that the more older folks that still use express buses (and/or those that ended up retiring due to old age or whatever), had such a standard set at.... The good news is that, albeit slowly, the latter is becoming apparent.... Gotta have hope for the younger generation.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Being blunt, the stigma that has plagued & continues to plague the express bus in this city is that they're exclusively for uppity rich snobs that think they're too good to ride the (local) buses & subways.... You have to consider the history as to why express buses even came into fruition..... This is how it is viewed by outsiders.

Nowadays it has less to do with [rich vs poor] & more to do with ["do I know you, or not"].... The term you'll generally hear thrown around are "regulars".... You have current riders that help perpetuate that stigma by frowning upon those that board express buses that aren't regulars.... YMMV, but the energy is palpable if you're not a regular rider of ((whatever)) route.... That should never be a thing when it comes to public transportation, but the reality is that it is.... That is why I say simply lowering the fare won't eliminate that stigma.... As long as express bus patronage is treated by passengers (of course, not all) like it's some exclusive club you have to be accepted or initiated into... You get rid of that by having an influx of riders, city-wide a] utilize the things in general, regardless of the fare & b] do away with, or not even possess the regressive mindset that the more older folks that still use express buses (and/or those that ended up retiring due to old age or whatever), had such a standard set at.... The good news is that, albeit slowly, the latter is becoming apparent.... Gotta have hope for the younger generation.

The energy is palpable because some non-regulars get on and conduct themselves in a poor manner. They come on, block the entire aisle so that people can't get through, then scoff, etc., or they hold up service for everyone arguing about whether or not their Metrocard pass is good on the express bus (it isn't when we're talking about a regular Metrocard), or they get up while the bus is on the expressway banging into everyone when the bus isn't even near the drop-off segment yet to run to the front. There are also the people that get on yacking and can't shut up. 

The things noted above are all seen as benefits of taking the express bus... That you usually have to deal with on the subway, which over the years has become more of a place where people go to be seen as opposed to taking the damn train to reach point A to point B. I personally for years have advocated for more quiet cars on Metro-North to ensure that the commute remains civilized and a number of express bus riders would like to see "No Cell Phones" signs come back.

As far as more patronage goes, the reality is it IS the fare that deters people from using it, just like the increased fare on the railroads has deterred some from taking it. The difference between the railroad and the express bus is that at least with Metro-North, the service has generally remained reliable as the fare has increased. With the express bus, that has not been the case, and so obviously people are not going to pay higher fares for worse service. That is why I have been laser focused on improving the actual product and things like buses starting on-time. The other things you noted people can get over as far as I see it, but they will not tolerate a product that is mediocre all the while paying more to use it. That has been the main complaint over the years that I have heard and that I have noticed as a long-time "regular" of over 15 years.

I have plenty of riders in my group that transfer to the subway or local bus and when I started taking the express bus in my early 20s, I took the express bus every morning into Manhattan and transferred to the subway to reach my office, so that stigma of express bus riders being unwilling to transfer is an old one that is quite frankly not that relevant today.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

34 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The energy is palpable because some non-regulars get on and conduct themselves in a poor manner. They come on, block the entire aisle so that people can't get through, then scoff, etc., or they hold up service for everyone arguing about whether or not their Metrocard pass is good on the express bus (it isn't when we're talking about a regular Metrocard), or they get up while the bus is on the expressway banging into everyone when the bus isn't even near the drop-off segment yet to run to the front. There are also the people that get on yacking and can't shut up. 

The things noted above are all seen as benefits of taking the express bus... That you usually have to deal with on the subway, which over the years has become more of a place where people go to be seen as opposed to taking the damn train to reach point A to point B. I personally for years have advocated for more quiet cars on Metro-North to ensure that the commute remains civilized and a number of express bus riders would like to see "No Cell Phones" signs come back.

As far as more patronage goes, the reality is it IS the fare that deters people from using it, just like the increased fare on the railroads has deterred some from taking it. The difference between the railroad and the express bus is that at least with Metro-North, the service has generally remained reliable as the fare has increased. With the express bus, that has not been the case, and so obviously people are not going to pay higher fares for worse service. That is why I have been laser focused on improving the actual product and things like buses starting on-time. The other things you noted people can get over as far as I see it, but they will not tolerate a product that is mediocre all the while paying more to use it. That has been the main complaint over the years that I have heard and that I have noticed as a long-time "regular" of over 15 years.

I have plenty of riders in my group that transfer to the subway or local bus and when I started taking the express bus in my early 20s, I took the express bus every morning into Manhattan and transferred to the subway to reach my office, so that stigma of express bus riders being unwilling to transfer is an old one that is quite frankly not that relevant today.

That energy exists because they simply don't want non-regulars on the bus, regardless of their behavior.... Have it be had some of these peoples' way, express buses would stagnate & eventually become extinct.... Interesting thing about being a regular is that you had to have been a non-regular before having became a regular... Again, embarking on some mode of transportation isn't something one should have to feel like they have to have acceptance gained from current riders/regulars... F*** you people, I'm trying to get from point A to point B & don't bother not one of you mf-ers in the process.... Some of that nonsense goes on with those peak LIRR trains (primarily the Babylon line, from my experience) also & shit like that is most definitely a deterrent.... No, not nearly as much of a deterrent than inferior routings/coverage & service levels for fare levels above par, but it shouldn't be ignored or brushed off either... Even if you wanted to avoid the crap that comes with taking local buses & subways, you still have people that can most certainly afford the current fare that refrain from taking express buses (and RR's for the matter) for whatever their reasons...

Express bus riders unwilling to transfer isn't an issue, as plenty SI-ers alone get off as soon as buses touch down in Manhattan to go xfer to some subway line....

Unlike local b/o's that are told not to get into fare disputes with passengers, the b/o of an express bus isn't going to let some crazy nonchalantly freely waltz onto the bus, so I think far too many express bus riders get paranoid when it comes to non-regulars..... Mf-ers would act like I didn't just pay the same damn $7.50 they did & are using the thing for the same general purpose I am... People need to stop.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

That energy exists because they simply don't want non-regulars on the bus, regardless of their behavior.... Have it be had some of these peoples' way, express buses would stagnate & eventually become extinct.... Interesting thing about being a regular is that you had to have been a non-regular before having became a regular... Again, embarking on some mode of transportation isn't something one should have to feel like they have to have acceptance gained from current riders/regulars... F*** you people, I'm trying to get from point A to point B & don't bother not one of you mf-ers in the process.... Some of that nonsense goes on with those peak LIRR trains (primarily the Babylon line, from my experience) also & shit like that is most definitely a deterrent.... No, not nearly as much of a deterrent than inferior routings/coverage & service levels for fare levels above par, but it shouldn't be ignored or brushed off either... Even if you wanted to avoid the crap that comes with taking local buses & subways, you still have people that can most certainly afford the current fare that refrain from taking express buses (and RR's for the matter) for whatever their reasons...

Express bus riders unwilling to transfer isn't an issue, as plenty SI-ers alone get off as soon as buses touch down in Manhattan to go xfer to some subway line....

Unlike local b/o's that are told not to get into fare disputes with passengers, the b/o of an express bus isn't going to let some crazy nonchalantly freely waltz onto the bus, so I think far too many express bus riders get paranoid when it comes to non-regulars..... Mf-ers would act like I didn't just pay the same damn $7.50 they did & are using the thing for the same general purpose I am... People need to stop.

You would think that, but we've have some crazy instances on express buses lately. We had the guy on a SIM bus exposing himself to a female passenger, and then there was the homeless guy practically naked and passed out on the BxM9. This drunk guy on the SIM15 with his pants down.... All of these are posts from my group. You're thinking about the old days. The express bus drivers, quite a few won't get into disputes either. Press F5 if that and keep it moving.

https://www.silive.com/news/2019/02/i-was-shocked-staten-island-man-allegedly-caught-on-video-exposing-himself-on-express-bus.html?fbclid=IwAR109gfe9KfGOTil2Xhvop7gDCOLetQZXjwvU6Qeks7VXE6hHdw9IcHUwZw

Since I started my group, I have seen some crazy things posted by various commuters that I didn't think I'd ever see.

As far as regulars vs. non-regulars, there are always non-regulars riding, especially on my lines because we have lots of occasional riders. I would say that lots of people come and go as well, so new faces are not as uncommon now as before.

Speaking of regulars, pre-pandemic, the 11pm BxM2 to Riverdale was insanely clicky, to where the regulars would come on and take their seats. There were a few other buses like this as well. That was a bus I used occasionally, and I didn't give a damn. I got on, took my seat and if they had a problem, oh well. One of them told me oh well you can sit where ever you want, as if I had earned my stripes, which I thought was cute. I get your point about the LIRR because there are some trains like that. We have Metro-North trains like that also that I take, but it is definitely not hostile. We actually chat and say hello, even if we haven't seen each other in a while. Ironically, it's the Hudson Rail link shuttle bus that can be more hostile. lol

Edited February 19, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You would think that, but we've have some crazy instances on express buses lately. We had the guy on a SIM bus exposing himself to a female passenger, and then there was the homeless guy practically naked and passed out on the BxM9. This drunk guy on the SIM15 with his pants down.... All of these are posts from my group. You're thinking about the old days. The express bus drivers, quite a few won't get into disputes either. Press F5 if that and keep it moving.

https://www.silive.com/news/2019/02/i-was-shocked-staten-island-man-allegedly-caught-on-video-exposing-himself-on-express-bus.html?fbclid=IwAR109gfe9KfGOTil2Xhvop7gDCOLetQZXjwvU6Qeks7VXE6hHdw9IcHUwZw

Since I started my group, I have seen some crazy things posted by various commuters that I didn't think I'd ever see.

If the behavior on express buses are slowly turning into behavior that you're more prone to hearing about on the subway, then yeah, they're taking a turn for the worst.... News to me that express buses have devolved in this fashion....

This crap had to have started when they temporarily had that fare freeze on the local buses & the overnight subway shutdown... That is when you started seeing homeless people and/or crazies embarking on (local) buses like there was no tomorrow, nomadically migrating all throughout the god damn city... It was the only thing I hated about the B99 in-particular - (as if the Junction wasn't already filthy as shit), it attracted the loonies that engaged in their f*** shit in Manhattan, into Brooklyn.... That is why I would try to refrain from taking those first 2 or 3 inbound trips (1am-2am slot).... I saw everything from tweaking meth heads/open drug usage, to open sexual activity (homo & heterosexual, 2 separate instances), and yes, even a .22 being drawn at that corner of Flatbush/Nostrand.... It has its seedy elements at night, but nothing remotely close to what would transpire over there by the Junction before the implementation of that route at a certain hour..... Anyway, before the fact, the vagabonds were generally hesitant to get on a local bus (as the subway was always their haven) & they didn't think twice about getting on an express (since there's no back door to farebeat on to speak of, obviously)... Express bus ops weren't as passive/nonchalant as you're apparently pointing out either....

Well, keep fighting the good fight then.....

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As far as regulars vs. non-regulars, there are always non-regulars riding, especially on my lines because we have lots of occasional riders. I would say that lots of people come and go as well, so new faces are not as uncommon now as before.

Speaking of regulars, pre-pandemic, the 11pm BxM2 to Riverdale was insanely clicky, to where the regulars would come on and take their seats. There were a few other buses like this as well. That was a bus I used occasionally, and I didn't give a damn. I got on, took my seat and if they had a problem, oh well. One of them told me oh well you can sit where ever you want, as if I had earned my stripes, which I thought was cute. I get your point about the LIRR because there are some trains like that. We have Metro-North trains like that also that I take, but it is definitely not hostile. We actually chat and say hello, even if we haven't seen each other in a while. Ironically, it's the Hudson Rail link shuttle bus that can be more hostile. lol

The most ridiculous thing I've gotten from an express rider (this was on the x31) was some old coot that was adamant about me using my laptop on the bus... Telling me that I'm not allowed to use that on the bus, how it would inconvenience fellow passengers, people are trying to get home after a long day's work, yada yada yada.... He got on at TSQ & would not shut up until we got to the toll booth.... Only one guy uttered "Enough already"... Nobody else said anything... To this day, I still don't know WTF he thought I was using, but I actually found it to be quite comical... Needless to say, I kept using my laptop for basically the whole ride... Mind you, there was no music being played, or anything that emanated a sound... I don't want to hear pressing keys was such this damn disturbance either.... Orville Redenbacher lookin mf-er...

Also, apparently, according to some wretch, "you can't eat on this bus" - this was on a BM1... That was back when I used to eat McDonalds.... But when her friend/coworker/whatever "Martha" got on the bus with a sandwich wrapped in foil & was munching on that mf-er when we were in the tunnel, oh, that was permissible then... The both of them got off at that first stop on Cortelyou & I got off at Schenectady.... Even though I'm an eat-and-runner, I'm a meticuously neat eater... Miss "Martha" on the other hand left several pieces of lettuce on the seat... But I'm the problem here.

Those RailLink buses... I detest those things for a different reason... The ride on those things flat out suck.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

If the behavior on express buses are slowly turning into behavior that you're more prone to hearing about on the subway, then yeah, they're taking a turn for the worst.... News to me that express buses have devolved in this fashion....

This crap had to have started when they temporarily had that fare freeze on the local buses & the overnight subway shutdown... That is when you started seeing homeless people and/or crazies embarking on (local) buses like there was no tomorrow, nomadically migrating all throughout the god damn city... It was the only thing I hated about the B99 in-particular - (as if the Junction wasn't already filthy as shit), it attracted the loonies that engaged in their f*** shit in Manhattan, into Brooklyn.... That is why I would try to refrain from taking those first 2 or 3 inbound trips (1am-2am slot).... I saw everything from tweaking meth heads/open drug usage, to open sexual activity (homo & heterosexual, 2 separate instances), and yes, even a .22 being drawn at that corner of Flatbush/Nostrand.... It has its seedy elements at night, but nothing remotely close to what would transpire over there by the Junction before the implementation of that route at a certain hour..... Anyway, before the fact, the vagabonds were generally hesitant to get on a local bus (as the subway was always their haven) & they didn't think twice about getting on an express (since there's no back door to farebeat on to speak of, obviously)... Express bus ops weren't as passive/nonchalant as you're apparently pointing out either....

Well, keep fighting the good fight then.....

The most ridiculous thing I've gotten from an express rider (this was on the x31) was some old coot that was adamant about me using my laptop on the bus... Telling me that I'm not allowed to use that on the bus, how it would inconvenience fellow passengers, people are trying to get home after a long day's work, yada yada yada.... He got on at TSQ & would not shut up until we got to the toll booth.... Only one guy uttered "Enough already"... Nobody else said anything... To this day, I still don't know WTF he thought I was using, but I actually found it to be quite comical... Needless to say, I kept using my laptop for basically the whole ride... Mind you, there was no music being played, or anything that emanated a sound... I don't want to hear pressing keys was such this damn disturbance either.... Orville Redenbacher lookin mf-er...

Also, apparently, according to some wretch, "you can't eat on this bus" - this was on a BM1... That was back when I used to eat McDonalds.... But when her friend/coworker/whatever "Martha" got on the bus with a sandwich wrapped in foil & was munching on that mf-er when we were in the tunnel, oh, that was permissible then... The both of them got off at that first stop on Cortelyou & I got off at Schenectady.... Even though I'm an eat-and-runner, I'm a meticuously neat eater... Miss "Martha" on the other hand left several pieces of lettuce on the seat... But I'm the problem here.

Those RailLink buses... I detest those things for a different reason... The ride on those things flat out suck.

That laptop situation is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I used to use a laptop on the express bus to get work done, and no one said boo. Years ago, when I moved to Riverdale, my broker actually told me a story about how his aunt stopped using the express buses because of all of the drama, and I thought to myself, oh it can't be that bad. Well shortly after I moved here, I get on the BxM18 to go home one night, and these two ladies were almost in a fist fight over a freaking seat. Apparently, there was something like assigned seats back in the day, and I believe it because there was a BxM1 bus I would get in the morning that was pretty much like that. I took the same seat every morning behind this lady who made sure to not have the seat reclined, knowing that I was tall. One day I get on and someone is sitting there and we're all looking at each other like what's going on here. It was kind of funny because it had been that way for so long, and a few non-regulars were on and everyone was shuffled around.

As for conflicts, the one big thing was people would be reminded that there was no talking on the express bus. A friend of mine had moved up here years ago and before he switched to Metro-North, he took the express bus to his office and an older lady told him "We don't talk on these buses honey". When he told me, we were riding Metro-North together one morning, and I chuckled, because I can recall a few instances where regulars got very pissy with people that were yacking on the phone, to the point that they forced them to get off. He was an architect, so I imagine he would have to take calls on occasion on the way to the office, but he wasn't the type to just lay on the phone.

The only time I have done something similar was when this lady would get on. She boarded at 239th sometimes, and from the minute she got on, she would dial up everyone and their mother and just talk loudly about BS that she could talk about at home and loud enough for the entire bus to hear, so finally I had enough, and I turned around and said "MAM, please lower your voice!", and then she eventually got off. After that when she saw me, she knew the deal and if she made calls, she would keep them brief and at a reasonable volume. Another morning, I'm at the Spuyten Duyvil station and who do I see boarding at the train but her. I made a B-Line for the quiet car. Wasn't doing anything but talking about real estate (I gather she was a realtor) and her vacations. Didn't want to hear it. Haven't seen her in a while, so she must've moved, but yeah, the no talking thing was a big deal. I found out that the No Cell Phone stickers were put up by depots, and not the , so that is why they were suddenly removed. In fact, the bus operators would even make announcements about how no cell phones were allowed, and a few old-timers still do it.

As for the Hudson shuttle buses, they are VERY clicky, or at least they were pre-COVID. I rarely use it now and either go to the station by car or I just walk on nice days since it's only about a 15 minute walk from my place, esp. since they don't take OMNY yet. Pre-COVID, It was customary for the drivers to receive gifts or money tips from the regulars, and people that usually did that expected them to hold the bus in return if they were running late, or pick them up at non-stops so they didn't miss the train.

I remember one morning waiting for the bus. Guy comes up to me and says "You look like one of those Metro-North types". lol He wanted to know if the shuttle bus had come yet. There are some riders that can be a bit judgmental, but sometimes the drivers can be a bit much. There is a guy who I would get on occasion at night. We had this guy get on and he commented about where he was going because he didn't live in Riverdale. Wasn't his exact words, but it was clear that he was throwing shade on the guy like what are you doing riding on this. You have your regulars on some trips that are very clicky and know each other and the drivers by name. In contrast, the Metro-North trains are generally not like that, but some trains do have a lot of Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale riders and thus can be clicky from that point of view, particularly the ones that start or end at Greystone.

[B35 via Church]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:08 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

I can’t speak for any other borough besides Queens, but as others have mentioned, the Queens express bus network is so antiquated and long overdue for a redesign.

I do like the idea of an off peak fare maybe around $4.50 to match the city ticket price for LIRR. I think in a lot of lower income areas the price can be a huge factor as to why people don’t use express buses even if they are going where people need to go.

There aren't much of any express buses that run in lower income areas for that to even be a problem though.... You're making it sound like express buses are whizzing by lower income areas & that they're being shunned because people can't afford them.... Although I thought it was fake outrage, I would actually hear more of a knock on express buses being that they only serve white areas, more so than not being able to afford them.... You bring up the BM2 & the x63 & x64, and then you're met with those just being outliers....

On 2/15/2022 at 12:08 PM, NewFlyer 230 said:

Here are some routing ideas I had for the Queens express bus system system.

- QM1: I would keep this route mostly the same, however it would have more of a purpose since I would take the QM5 off Union Tpke and the QM6 would stop picking up passengers past 188th street. I would keep this route weekdays only, because my modified QM4, QM5 and QM6’s services would be able to cover the route when it’s not running.  

- QM3: Needs more service than what is currently offered. I think the MTA has been sleeping on the potential of this route big time as some people don’t live near the LIRR or want to take the Q12 to the .

- QM4: I was thinking of two possible routing for the QM4 past Jewel Ave & 164th street. 

• Plan A is to have the QM4 run up to the Horace Harding and then along the Horace Harding to 188th Street and terminate where the QM1 does like many people have suggested in the past.
• However plan B would be to have the QM4 run south on 164th Street to 73rd Ave and run along 73rd Ave to 188th street which would be the first and last stop. 

- The QM5 I always believed had no business running along Union Turnpike since it has to do this weird backtrack just to then head back to Manhattan which is why I would give the QM1 the responsibility of serving Union Turnpike between 188th street to Queens Blvd. So instead of the QM5 turning south onto 188th Street to go to Union Turnpike I would have it head north on 188th street to the Horace Harding and then from there I would have it get on the highway to have it run to Manhattan which would save it lots of time from having to run along Union Turnpike & Union Turnpike. I was also thinking of the possibility of having the QM5 make stops along the Horace Harding at Utopia Parkway, 164th street, Kissena Blvd & finally Main Street just to provide more alternatives for those heading to the city. 

- The QM6 would have the same routing but during the weekdays I would have buses make no stops past 188th street to Manhattan because the QM1 would serve Union Turnpike between 188th street and Queens Blvd. 

- I know I may get some criticism for this but I would eliminate the QM10 and QM11 in favor of having the QM12 take over it’s routing along 62nd & 63rd drives and then I would have it run down it normal routing along Yellowstone but instead of having it continue down Yellowstone to Woodhaven Blvd, I would have it follow the Q23 routing through Forest Hills.

- I would have the QM21 run deeper into SE Queens. I would get rid of its loop around Rochdale Village with buses instead heading continuing south along Guy Brewer to 137th Ave. I would have it continue on 137th Ave to Farmers to the Conduit. From the Conduit I would have it run south along  Springfield Blvd to 147th Ave which would be the first and last stops. 

- I was also thinking about a potential express route (QM19) along 147the Ave and Rockaway Blvd in SE Queens. It would start on Hook Creek Blvd run along 147th Ave to Rockaway Blvd and then along Rockaway Blvd to the Van Wyck and from there continue to the city via Queens Blvd and L.I.E

- I think the x63 needs to be modified because it’s run time is way too long and Merrick Blvd isn’t a street for a express bus. I really think it should stick to servicing Laurelton and Rosedale only. 

 

Once again these are just a few ideas I had to offer better service to areas that lack service as well as modify a few routes to make them faster. As for the other routes I either think they are fine or I just don’t know what improvements they may need.

((formatted for clarity reasons))

QM3: The demand has been there for more service, but I would do away with the portion along LNP (the preference is for the Union Tpke. routes down there)..... I'd have it start at LNP/Northern...

QM4: I happen to think there's a place for routes like the QM4 & the BxM6.... I'd leave it/them alone.

QM5/35: I don't have a problem with it using Union Tpke; the issue I have with that route is everything that it does once it gets off Union Tpke (as in, 188th), to eventually descend down to Union Tpke (at 260th) to end.... I would structure that route differently, to where Manhattan bound service starts on the eastern side of the CIP (either at Douglaston Plaza or the stop before it), then do the current routing to Union Tpke/260th, then run along Union Tpke to 188th, where it would run nonstop to Manhattan... The current QM5 routing b/w 188th/73rd & Cloverdale/HHE would be replaced with an extended (and expanded) QM1...

QM12: This doesn't make sense on either front... It appears that you think QM10, QM11, and QM12 usage to/from Queens are interchangeable... Eliminating service on the NB side of the HHE (on the LeFrak side of the highway) that the QM10/11 serves, to have a bus [QM12] meander through streets that the Q23 itself has a bit of trouble operating on in residential Forest Hills, IDK man.... Not sure what your rationale is with that..... On top of that, as was said, while the QM10 & 12 are midtown services, the QM11 is a downtown service... Pre-pandemic at least, the QM11 garnered just about, if not slightly more usage than than the QM12... While I would say the QM10 does appear to be hanging on by a thread, I'm just not there yet with axing it... That QM18 along Lefferts OTOH is almost a complete afterthought; that thing should go before the QM10 or the QM11 IMO... Or at the very least, shift it [QM18] to where it would parallel the Q37 instead of the infamous Q10 b/w Metropolitan av & Rockaway blvd.... You have a much better shot at targeting frustrated Q37 riders, because those Q10 riders you aint doing nothing with... Lol....

QM21/x63: I had a discussion about bus service in Rosedale with someone I personally know offline a good while back.... He was an x63 rider..... Pretty sure he's long retired now... As odd as this may sound, the x63 would be in trouble if you took away the Rosedale part of the route... OTOH, while it has its riders, Rochdale by itself doesn't carry the QM21... Linden Blvd. patronage on either these routes is straggler level at best (x63 moreso than the QM21)... The QM21 runs like shit & the x63 is an immense waste of mileage... I will never forget the one ride I had on that that thing (x63), where we had about 20 ppl. or so on the bus, that went nonstop from Baisley to frickin Francis Lewis/S. Conduit !! Then pax started slowly thinning out after that point up until the very last stop, where me & these other 3 ladies got off....

IDK about the inbound QM21, but with the outbound QM21, I don't think I ever rode the thing, where someone got off past 133rd... After the turn onto 137th, one b/o said, "you still on here bro" (I took the full QM21 that day)... I pay close attention to when b/o's make little comments like that.... Serves as a good indicator of how far the regulars typically ride buses....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

There aren't much of any express buses that run in lower income areas for that to even be a problem though.... You're making it sound like express buses are whizzing by lower income areas & that they're being shunned because people can't afford them.... Although I thought it was fake outrage, I would actually hear more of a knock on express buses being that they only serve white areas, more so than not being able to afford them.... You bring up the BM2 & the x63 & x64, and then you're met with those just being outliers....

((formatted for clarity reasons))

1. QM3: The demand has been there for more service, but I would do away with the portion along LNP (the preference is for the Union Tpke. routes down there)..... I'd have it start at LNP/Northern...

2. QM4: I happen to think there's a place for routes like the QM4 & the BxM6.... I'd leave it/them alone.

3. QM5/35: I don't have a problem with it using Union Tpke; the issue I have with that route is everything that it does once it gets off Union Tpke (as in, 188th), to eventually descend down to Union Tpke (at 260th) to end.... I would structure that route differently, to where Manhattan bound service starts on the eastern side of the CIP (either at Douglaston Plaza or the stop before it), then do the current routing to Union Tpke/260th, then run along Union Tpke to 188th, where it would run nonstop to Manhattan... The current QM5 routing b/w 188th/73rd & Cloverdale/HHE would be replaced with an extended (and expanded) QM1...

4. QM12: This doesn't make sense on either front... It appears that you think QM10, QM11, and QM12 usage to/from Queens are interchangeable... Eliminating service on the NB side of the HHE (on the LeFrak side of the highway) that the QM10/11 serves, to have a bus [QM12] meander through streets that the Q23 itself has a bit of trouble operating on in residential Forest Hills, IDK man.... Not sure what your rationale is with that..... On top of that, as was said, while the QM10 & 12 are midtown services, the QM11 is a downtown service... Pre-pandemic at least, the QM11 garnered just about, if not slightly more usage than than the QM12... While I would say the QM10 does appear to be hanging on by a thread, I'm just not there yet with axing it... That QM18 along Lefferts OTOH is almost a complete afterthought; that thing should go before the QM10 or the QM11 IMO... Or at the very least, shift it [QM18] to where it would parallel the Q37 instead of the infamous Q10 b/w Metropolitan av & Rockaway blvd.... You have a much better shot at targeting frustrated Q37 riders, because those Q10 riders you aint doing nothing with... Lol....

5. QM21/x63: I had a discussion about bus service in Rosedale with someone I personally know offline a good while back.... He was an x63 rider..... Pretty sure he's long retired now... As odd as this may sound, the x63 would be in trouble if you took away the Rosedale part of the route... OTOH, while it has its riders, Rochdale by itself doesn't carry the QM21... Linden Blvd. patronage on either these routes is straggler level at best (x63 moreso than the QM21)... The QM21 runs like shit & the x63 is an immense waste of mileage... I will never forget the one ride I had on that that thing (x63), where we had about 20 ppl. or so on the bus, that went nonstop from Baisley to frickin Francis Lewis/S. Conduit !! Then pax started slowly thinning out after that point up until the very last stop, where me & these other 3 ladies got off....

IDK about the inbound QM21, but with the outbound QM21, I don't think I ever rode the thing, where someone got off past 133rd... After the turn onto 137th, one b/o said, "you still on here bro" (I took the full QM21 that day)... I pay close attention to when b/o's make little comments like that.... Serves as a good indicator of how far the regulars typically ride buses....

1. I agree partially. You'd only be axing two stops, and those two stops are away from the LIRR, so if there is any usage, I'd keep them. We both know that some QM3 riders alternate between the LIRR and the QM3, so there is no question about affordability. The only question is are you allowing the QM3 to be as convenient of an option and perhaps speeding it up for the Little Neck and Douglaston riders. One thing I would investigate is the idea of a regular QM3 that perhaps started a bit more West along Northern Blvd and a Super Express QM3 so one would serve say Flushing and perhaps Jackson Heights, but there would have to be enough ridership for that. The Super Express QM3 I would have stop making pick-ups further East along Northern. I think with the crowding on the  train, with enough advertising you could get some riders, at least during peak periods.

2. I think the QM4 has more potential. It is definitely used during peak periods. It's off-peak that's the problem. I would extend it to make a few stops along Queens Blvd. I also think it ends at a weird spot on the Queens side. I've used it when I had meetings in Queens, but also rode it a lot after I started the advocacy group to get a sense of what the issues were. The run times should be cut on the Manhattan end to be about 10 minutes. Wayy too much run time on weekends, which makes the trips longer for no reason. I've pushed to get some run times changes and the  has agreed to a handful of them, but for others, there was a mention of how it wasn't that simple. Not sure if it was due to contractual obligations or what. I know that any change usually has to be negotiated with the unions, but it sounds like there were other contractual obligations that went back to the private lines.

3. There is no question that the QM5 and QM35 do too much. Peak periods, it shouldn't do any pick-ups past 188th St. Off-peak, the issue is frequency. The QM5 and QM6 run hourly at times, and having them combined gives you service every 30 minutes along parts of Union Turnpike, but at the same time, the QM5 needs to be restructured. I have taken many trips to 260th & Union Turnpike via Fresh Meadows and it's just ridiculous. The QM6 is much quicker, but again you don't have the frequency. If you had more usage from say the North Shore Towers, it could perhaps work, otherwise, one line gets too much service. At the same time, I definitely would not run the QM1 off-peak. One idea I thought of to make the QM4 more useful is to have it serve the Fresh Meadows section and terminate right there during off-peak periods. This eliminates the need of the QM5 having to do backtracking along 188th to serve those stops, so even if kept the Union Turnpike stops, that would definitely help a bit. Ideally, with more QM6 service, you could just have it stop picking up after say 193rd and 73rd.

4. A chunk of the QM18 usage is along Queens Blvd, so I would keep it and restructure it to see if more riders could be obtained in the less popular segment of the route, which is the part you noted. Can't do much more than that.

5.The QM21 is a line I gave a lot of attention to because it ran very poorly, esp. in the afternoon. It has improved considerably. The main impediments now are the high fare. Get the fare down and keep the reliability and you'd have more usage. There are definitely some QM21 riders in my group, esp. from Rochdale Village.

[paulrivera]

12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You would think that, but we've have some crazy instances on express buses lately. We had the guy on a SIM bus exposing himself to a female passenger, and then there was the homeless guy practically naked and passed out on the BxM9. This drunk guy on the SIM15 with his pants down.... All of these are posts from my group. You're thinking about the old days. The express bus drivers, quite a few won't get into disputes either. Press F5 if that and keep it moving.

https://www.silive.com/news/2019/02/i-was-shocked-staten-island-man-allegedly-caught-on-video-exposing-himself-on-express-bus.html?fbclid=IwAR109gfe9KfGOTil2Xhvop7gDCOLetQZXjwvU6Qeks7VXE6hHdw9IcHUwZw

Since I started my group, I have seen some crazy things posted by various commuters that I didn't think I'd ever see.

As far as regulars vs. non-regulars, there are always non-regulars riding, especially on my lines because we have lots of occasional riders. I would say that lots of people come and go as well, so new faces are not as uncommon now as before.

Speaking of regulars, pre-pandemic, the 11pm BxM2 to Riverdale was insanely clicky, to where the regulars would come on and take their seats. There were a few other buses like this as well. That was a bus I used occasionally, and I didn't give a damn. I got on, took my seat and if they had a problem, oh well. One of them told me oh well you can sit where ever you want, as if I had earned my stripes, which I thought was cute. I get your point about the LIRR because there are some trains like that. We have Metro-North trains like that also that I take, but it is definitely not hostile. We actually chat and say hello, even if we haven't seen each other in a while. Ironically, it's the Hudson Rail link shuttle bus that can be more hostile. lol

oh jiminy christmas....

If I ever saw an EDP on an express bus, I'd probably lose my cool right then and there. Folks are paying almost $7 for these buses and most of the time they only show up once or twice an hour. Even if I do run right off the bus, that pit in my stomach if I ever dealt with something like that would be unreal.

As for the clicky stuff, thank heavens I haven't seen that kind of stuff in years. Those clicky riders should be thinking big picture and welcome any and all new passengers that pay their fare, so that they can continue to have their express bus for years to come. Look what's going on with the 4C in Westchester, those riders were always really clicky and that's one of the many reasons it's down to a rush hour only, one-way only route that no longer runs past 23rd Street and no longer runs between 9am and 4pm.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:11 AM, Jamall Hayden said:

 I’m not against subway expansions they’re good for the long term. The improvement of express bus service is a great solution for the near term. 

 

Actually, the best way to prop up the express bus network is to keep the subway system as undesirable and substandard as possible.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, paulrivera said:

oh jiminy christmas....

If I ever saw an EDP on an express bus, I'd probably lose my cool right then and there. Folks are paying almost $7 for these buses and most of the time they only show up once or twice an hour. Even if I do run right off the bus, that pit in my stomach if I ever dealt with something like that would be unreal.

As for the clicky stuff, thank heavens I haven't seen that kind of stuff in years. Those clicky riders should be thinking big picture and welcome any and all new passengers that pay their fare, so that they can continue to have their express bus for years to come. Look what's going on with the 4C in Westchester, those riders were always really clicky and that's one of the many reasons it's down to a rush hour only, one-way only route that no longer runs past 23rd Street and no longer runs between 9am and 4pm.

Some riders don't live in reality. I'm realistic... My stance is regardless of the service, there should be adequate service running, so on the express end, that would mean a bus every hour minimum off-peak or every thirty minutes, and a bus every thirty minutes or less during peak periods, provided ridership warrants it. That's true with the railroads, ferries, etc. Same with the subway. Some lines run on piss poor frequencies enough to deter people from using it, like the train on weekends... Atrocious....

Some people think that more service should be added because their bus is "crowded", but crowded to them means having almost every row filled, but still not sitting next to anybody. LOL Give me break. It's public transportation, not a personal Uber. I'm always willing to go to bat, but stuff like that, the  would not entertain. They already think that ridership is low on many lines, which is why they keep saying "low density" in their report for a lot of lines, which is BS to justify trying to axe service.
As someone who lost a chunk of service during the 2010 cuts, I understand how the  operates, so I'm always thinking ahead. None of what they proposed in their redesigns shocked me, though I was still furious, as my stance is they aren't building subways in the outer boroughs and they're not providing adequate service in these redesigns to areas that are transit starved, so they must have SOMETHING. I don't care if it's express buses, ferries. Provide it so that people can get around if they want or need to use public transit.

Here in NYC, in most areas, people want public transit, unless the area is very exclusive where everyone drives, but even in very expensive areas, you have people that take public transit because driving can be a pain. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, paulrivera said:

...As for the clicky stuff, thank heavens I haven't seen that kind of stuff in years. Those clicky riders should be thinking big picture and welcome any and all new passengers that pay their fare, so that they can continue to have their express bus for years to come. Look what's going on with the 4C in Westchester, those riders were always really clicky and that's one of the many reasons it's down to a rush hour only, one-way only route that no longer runs past 23rd Street and no longer runs between 9am and 4pm.

Although in a different jurisdiction, it's still a good example to a point I made in an earlier post, when I said "Have it be had some of these peoples' way, express buses would stagnate & eventually become extinct...." There is a reason I kept up the long running joke of calling that route the BxMC4 - it's only a matter of time before Bee Line blows that shit up.... I remember when those buses on the weekends (Saturdays at least) used to be crushloaded leaving Manhattan... Apparently the "right" people complained & got their way, to the point where Bee Line completely decimated that off peak patronage that kept the thing (IMO) flourishing.... TBH, I used to prefer it over the MNRR heading up to White Plains...

5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. I agree partially. You'd only be axing two stops, and those two stops are away from the LIRR, so if there is any usage, I'd keep them. We both know that some QM3 riders alternate between the LIRR and the QM3, so there is no question about affordability. The only question is are you allowing the QM3 to be as convenient of an option and perhaps speeding it up for the Little Neck and Douglaston riders. One thing I would investigate is the idea of a regular QM3 that perhaps started a bit more West along Northern Blvd and a Super Express QM3 so one would serve say Flushing and perhaps Jackson Heights, but there would have to be enough ridership for that. The Super Express QM3 I would have stop making pick-ups further East along Northern. I think with the crowding on the  train, with enough advertising you could get some riders, at least during peak periods.

2. I think the QM4 has more potential. It is definitely used during peak periods. It's off-peak that's the problem. I would extend it to make a few stops along Queens Blvd. I also think it ends at a weird spot on the Queens side. I've used it when I had meetings in Queens, but also rode it a lot after I started the advocacy group to get a sense of what the issues were. The run times should be cut on the Manhattan end to be about 10 minutes. Wayy too much run time on weekends, which makes the trips longer for no reason. I've pushed to get some run times changes and the  has agreed to a handful of them, but for others, there was a mention of how it wasn't that simple. Not sure if it was due to contractual obligations or what. I know that any change usually has to be negotiated with the unions, but it sounds like there were other contractual obligations that went back to the private lines.

3. There is no question that the QM5 and QM35 do too much. Peak periods, it shouldn't do any pick-ups past 188th St. Off-peak, the issue is frequency. The QM5 and QM6 run hourly at times, and having them combined gives you service every 30 minutes along parts of Union Turnpike, but at the same time, the QM5 needs to be restructured. I have taken many trips to 260th & Union Turnpike via Fresh Meadows and it's just ridiculous. The QM6 is much quicker, but again you don't have the frequency. If you had more usage from say the North Shore Towers, it could perhaps work, otherwise, one line gets too much service. At the same time, I definitely would not run the QM1 off-peak. One idea I thought of to make the QM4 more useful is to have it serve the Fresh Meadows section and terminate right there during off-peak periods. This eliminates the need of the QM5 having to do backtracking along 188th to serve those stops, so even if kept the Union Turnpike stops, that would definitely help a bit. Ideally, with more QM6 service, you could just have it stop picking up after say 193rd and 73rd.

4. A chunk of the QM18 usage is along Queens Blvd, so I would keep it and restructure it to see if more riders could be obtained in the less popular segment of the route, which is the part you noted. Can't do much more than that.

5.The QM21 is a line I gave a lot of attention to because it ran very poorly, esp. in the afternoon. It has improved considerably. The main impediments now are the high fare. Get the fare down and keep the reliability and you'd have more usage. There are definitely some QM21 riders in my group, esp. from Rochdale Village.

1- The core of the QM3's ridership was always in that pocket b/w say, 149th & just before Francis Lewis.... I have no doubts that if the QM3 started somewhere around Francis Lewis, and then went on to serve Jackson Heights (and not just those 2 outbound-only stops it currently makes on 72nd & 87th either), it would garner enough riders... You could certainly get away with having an Sx setup covering the rest of QM3 at & east of the Clearview (even if it were to retain those ill-utilized stops south of Northern towards HHE).... Unlike a lot of people, I don't judge a route's patronage solely based on how much service is given to it... I ride these things for myself.

2- I could have sworn it made those stops along QB west of Jewel that the QM18 makes... Since that's not the case, then at minimum, it should be stopping at 67th av. & at 63rd dr. before diving onto the LIE... In that post of mine, I was speaking to extending the QM4 past Electchester... I don't automatically subscribe to extending a route just because its catchment area happens to be short... So in saying that, it's not so much about (wasted) potential with the QM4 IMO, as much as it is the Union Tpke. routes already covering Fresh Meadows - which is where @NewFlyer 230 is suggesting extending the thing....

3- That lack of frequency you're speaking of with the QM6, is one reason why I'd have the QM5 structured as I suggested previously... As for the QM1, I'd much rather have it run off-peak to cover the rest of the QM5 short of the C.I.P., over extending the QM4 anywhere.... The current QM1 got bastardized when they broke up the old QM1/1a into the current variants/route numbers that pan along Union Tpke.... In turn, the QM5 was left to do the heavy lifting that it currently does.... I would look to change both of those occurrences/scenarios...

4- I know, and that's exactly what's keeping that thing afloat.... I'm also of the belief that's why the MTA proposed eliminating the QM11 & the QM18 to have that Briarwood - Downtown route that stops dead at QB/Main st, only making stops along QB... The goofy shit it does after getting off the LIE, they can go shove it....

5- I'd say it should still be an express route (with express fares), instead of morphing it into a de-facto super limited.... In saying that, I'd run it out to Rosedale & let the chips fall wherever they may with the x63 not serving Rosedale anymore... x63 is out of QV as you know & the QM21 is right there out of Baisley... To me it just makes more sense to have the QM21 (with more service of course) running to Rosedale over the x63... Even the MTA's proposing having the same route serve Rosedale & Rochdale that with that Rosedale - Midtown route (although I wouldn't route it exactly how they would)....

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Actually, the best way to prop up the express bus network is to keep the subway system as undesirable and substandard as possible.

Real estate agents would do a better job.

The best way to have people in this city giving up on public transit altogether, is to have the subway system waste away to undesirability....

Edited February 20, 2022 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

30 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Although in a different jurisdiction, it's still a good example to a point I made in an earlier post, when I said "Have it be had some of these peoples' way, express buses would stagnate & eventually become extinct...." There is a reason I kept up the long running joke of calling that route the BxMC4 - it's only a matter of time before Bee Line blows that shit up.... I remember when those buses on the weekends (Saturdays at least) used to be crushloaded leaving Manhattan... Apparently the "right" people complained & got their way, to the point where Bee Line completely decimated that off peak patronage that kept the thing (IMO) flourishing.... TBH, I used to prefer it over the MNRR heading up to White Plains...

1- The core of the QM3's ridership was always in that pocket b/w say, 149th & just before Francis Lewis.... I have no doubts that if the QM3 started somewhere around Francis Lewis, and then went on to serve Jackson Heights (and not just those 2 outbound-only stops it currently makes on 72nd & 87th either), it would garner enough riders... You could certainly get away with having an Sx setup covering the rest of QM3 at & east of the Clearview (even if it were to retain those ill-utilized stops south of Northern towards HHE).... Unlike a lot of people, I don't judge a route's patronage solely based on how much service is given to it... I ride these things for myself.

2- I could have sworn it made those stops along QB west of Jewel that the QM18 makes... Since that's not the case, then at minimum, it should be stopping at 67th av. & at 63rd dr. before diving onto the LIE... In that post of mine, I was speaking to extending the QM4 past Electchester... I don't automatically subscribe to extending a route just because its catchment area happens to be short... So in saying that, it's not so much about (wasted) potential with the QM4 IMO, as much as it is the Union Tpke. routes already covering Fresh Meadows - which is where @NewFlyer 230 is suggesting extending the thing....

3- That lack of frequency you're speaking of with the QM6, is one reason why I'd have the QM5 structured as I suggested previously... As for the QM1, I'd much rather have it run off-peak to cover the rest of the QM5 short of the C.I.P., over extending the QM4 anywhere.... The current QM1 got bastardized when they broke up the old QM1/1a into the current variants/route numbers that pan along Union Tpke.... In turn, the QM5 was left to do the heavy lifting that it currently does.... I would look to change both of those occurrences/scenarios...

4- I know, and that's exactly what's keeping that thing afloat.... I'm also of the belief that's why the MTA proposed eliminating the QM11 & the QM18 to have that Briarwood - Downtown route that stops dead at QB/Main st, only making stops along QB... The goofy shit it does after getting off the LIE, they can go shove it....

5- I'd say it should still be an express route (with express fares), instead of morphing it into a de-facto super limited.... In saying that, I'd run it out to Rosedale & let the chips fall wherever they may with the x63 not serving Rosedale anymore... x63 is out of QV as you know & the QM21 is right there out of Baisley... To me it just makes more sense to have the QM21 (with more service of course) running to Rosedale over the x63... Even the MTA's proposing having the same route serve Rosedale & Rochdale that with that Rosedale - Midtown route (although I wouldn't route it exactly how they would)....

1. I believe that there is potential for more QM3 patronage also, and I think the cuts stem from the  being cheap and trying to force people in Little Neck and Douglaston esp. to use the LIRR. The electeds definitely tried to push for more QM3 service and the  did not budge. They may however when congestion pricing is implemented. I think in general their stance is that Queens has a huge bus network and be it local or express, they'd like to consolidate. The Redesign they pushed showed this.

2. & 3. When I have had meetings for work out there at night, I have often come back to the City with the QM4. Pick it up at 69th Road and Queens Bl (last stop), and yes I agree with you, as I proposed that to the  , that is, a few more stops along Queens Blvd. As for extending the QM4 over to Fresh Meadows, I'm not necessarily wild about it, but I don't see the  wanting to add more service anywhere, so this is a compromise. In my dealings with them, they have shown that are VERY stingy with adding more service, hence why I proposed this. It's probably about as close as you'll get to anything else, because they sure as hell aren't adding more QM1 service. You can see that by all of the QM5 via Fresh Meadows trips. It's a disservice to have that many QM5 trips via Fresh Meadows, as the line is doing too much. Hell, I have people asking for earlier service in Queens as it is. I pitched a cost neutral idea, something they've been doing on other lines where they cut a trip in one place to run earlier service where needed. If they won't do that, they aren't going to add more service elsewhere.

4. lol

5. Yes, I'm not proposing anything else. I'm just saying that two things that has hurt the QM21 has been higher fares and poor reliability. The reliability has been much better after the QM4 was moved back to College Point. I think before that Baisley took having those two lines for granted. Now they've made a concerted effort to cover those QM21 trips because before there was always one or two trips missing almost every day in the afternoons.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

22 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

QM4: I happen to think there's a place for routes like the QM4 & the BxM6.... I'd leave it/them alone.

QM5/35: I don't have a problem with it using Union Tpke; the issue I have with that route is everything that it does once it gets off Union Tpke (as in, 188th), to eventually descend down to Union Tpke (at 260th) to end.... I would structure that route differently, to where Manhattan bound service starts on the eastern side of the CIP (either at Douglaston Plaza or the stop before it), then do the current routing to Union Tpke/260th, then run along Union Tpke to 188th, where it would run nonstop to Manhattan... The current QM5 routing b/w 188th/73rd & Cloverdale/HHE would be replaced with an extended (and expanded) QM1...

 

19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

2. I think the QM4 has more potential. It is definitely used during peak periods. It's off-peak that's the problem. I would extend it to make a few stops along Queens Blvd. I also think it ends at a weird spot on the Queens side. I've used it when I had meetings in Queens, but also rode it a lot after I started the advocacy group to get a sense of what the issues were. The run times should be cut on the Manhattan end to be about 10 minutes. Wayy too much run time on weekends, which makes the trips longer for no reason. I've pushed to get some run times changes and the  has agreed to a handful of them, but for others, there was a mention of how it wasn't that simple. Not sure if it was due to contractual obligations or what. I know that any change usually has to be negotiated with the unions, but it sounds like there were other contractual obligations that went back to the private lines.

3. There is no question that the QM5 and QM35 do too much. Peak periods, it shouldn't do any pick-ups past 188th St. Off-peak, the issue is frequency. The QM5 and QM6 run hourly at times, and having them combined gives you service every 30 minutes along parts of Union Turnpike, but at the same time, the QM5 needs to be restructured. I have taken many trips to 260th & Union Turnpike via Fresh Meadows and it's just ridiculous. The QM6 is much quicker, but again you don't have the frequency. If you had more usage from say the North Shore Towers, it could perhaps work, otherwise, one line gets too much service. At the same time, I definitely would not run the QM1 off-peak. One idea I thought of to make the QM4 more useful is to have it serve the Fresh Meadows section and terminate right there during off-peak periods. This eliminates the need of the QM5 having to do backtracking along 188th to serve those stops, so even if kept the Union Turnpike stops, that would definitely help a bit. Ideally, with more QM6 service, you could just have it stop picking up after say 193rd and 73rd.

I'm a bit conflicted on the QM4/QM5, while I think the QM5 does too much with its existing route (especially in Fresh Meadows) and I do lean into the notion that it should be removed from Union Turnpike altogether, I also do want some off-peak service on Queens Boulevard too. I think there's some demand there, especially with all the delays and outages on the subway, especially weeknights and weekends. Additionally, I do think that there's demand in NE Queens for a route along HHE west of 188th Street. All of this would be difficult to achieve in a cost-neutral format though, but I think there is a way.

Here's what I had in plan, which also includes elements of what both of you brought up:

Off-Peak:

QM4 - From 260/LNP, existing QM5 route to 188th Street & 64th Avenue, then via 188th Street and HHE to 164th Street, and existing QM4 route into Manhattan (every 60 minutes)

Stops (in Queens):

• All QM5 stops between LNP and 188th Street/64th Avenue 
• HHE & Utopia Parkway
• All QM4 stops between 164th / HHE and 69th Rd / Queens Blvd
• Queens Boulevard & 67th Avenue
• Queens Boulevard & 63rd Drive

QM5 - From 260/LNP, existing QM5 route to 188th Street & 64th Avenue, then via HHE (every 60 minutes on weekdays until about 10 PM)

Stops (in Queens):

• All QM5 stops between LNP and 188th Street/64th Avenue
• HHE & Utopia Parkway
• HHE & 164th Street
• HHE & Parsons Boulevard
• HHE & Kissena Boulevard
• HHE & 146th Street
• HHE & Main Street 
• HHE & College Point Boulevard
• HHE & 108th Street
• HHE & 99th Street

QM6 - From 260/LNP or North Shore Towers. Service would branch off at 260th Street, heading either up the existing QM5 to HHE, or on the existing QM6 route to NST (every 30 minutes combined, every 60 minutes on each branch)

Stops (in Queens):

• All existing QM5 stops on Little Neck Parkway & 260th Street from HHE to Union Turnpike (Little Neck Branch)
• All existing QM6 stops from North Shore Towers to 260th Street (NST Branch)
• All existing QM6 stops from 260th Street to Main Street
• Hoffman Drive & Woodhaven (Pick-up) / Queens Boulevard & Woodhaven Boulevard (Drop-Off)

 

TLDR: The current QM5 gets truncated to/from HHE & LNP, with one variant operating via Jewel Avenue, and one operating via HHE (weekdays only) for increased express bus coverage. The QM4s resources used for expanded QM6 service on Union Turnpike, to compensate for the loss of QM5 service. One of the QM6 branches will operate up to Little Neck to compensate for lost QM5 service. Service on existing corridors would be maintain on or close to existing levels.

Peak:

QM1 - Existing route, with service operating every 10-12 minutes during the AM, and every 12-15 minutes during the PM

QM31 - Existing route, with service operate every 10-15 minutes during the AM, and every 15-20 minutes during the PM

QM4X/QM44 - Existing route (no stops along Queens Boulevard, and no service to Fresh Meadows or Little Neck)

QM5X/QM35 - Existing route from Glen Oaks to 188th Street & 64th Avenue, then express to/from Manhattan (some frequency reductions due to coverage reduction and to boost QM1)

QM6X/QM36 - Existing route from NST to Union Turnpike & 193rd Street, then making the following stops:

• 188th Street & 75th Avenue
• 188th Street & 73rd Avenue
• 188th Street & 69th Avenue
• 188th Street & 64th Avenue
• HHE & Utopia Parkway 

Then express to Manhattan

QM10/QM40 - Route Originates at Kissena Boulevard & HHE, making the following stops:

(Pick-Up)

• HHE & 148th Street
• HHE & Main Street
• HHE & College Point Boulevard
• HHE & 108th Street
• 99th Street & 60th Avenue
• All existing QM10/QM40 stops 

(Drop-Off)

• Woodhaven Boulevard & Booth Street
• 59th Avenue & 92nd Street
• Junction Boulevard & HHE
• HHE & 99th Street
• HHE & 108th Street
• HHE & College Point Boulevard
• HHE & Main Street 
• HHE & 148th Street
• HHE & Kissena Boulevard

QM12/QM42 - PM service operates 63rd Road replacing QM10/QM40 service 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by BM5 via Woodhaven