HEETs: The Obvious solution?

[bobtehpanda]

7 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I hope you aren’t being serious with the suggestion that Eagle teams patrol the subway. I’ve operated trains after 9/11 with extra police patrols and it was a disaster. We had undercover cops who carried special tech, especially on trains that traversed the under river tunnels. There were some medical institutions on the East Side that did chemo work. Riders enter downtown  or  .  Union Square was one stop that stood out. Train gets to Bowling Green and we wait while the officers pull people off the train because the instruments detected something out of the ordinary. RCC is on the radio asking me, my C/R, and the ATD what’s going on. The other riders are agitated and delayed. Finally the police let the medical patients back on the train and we close up and head into the river tube. Now multiply that because the medical patients readily complied with the police and the farebeaters will definitely do the opposite and you have a recipe for disaster. My take. Carry on.

You can have POP style checks on the trains, or even on the platforms or by turnstiles. That's more of an issue with how NYPD operates.

NYPD? Operate in a way that is inconvenient because they said so? What a surprise.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

That being said, the fare evasion on buses is even worse... I am THIS CLOSE to join the others in not paying soon, because I am sick of being the only person donating to the MTA.... it obviously seems like the MTA has no plans to do anything about it... they have the eagle team doing SBS, how come they can't expand the force and do patrols on local... why do they need a study on how to reduce fare evasion? 

A STUDY ON HOW TO REDUCE FARE EVASION? REALLY?? Have someone enforce the fare, have consequences for that person not paying the fare... doesn't have to be jail time or monetary... how hard is that, maybe the MTA should give me a couple of million for releasing my findings

Hell I'll even give you the locations on where you should patrol...

I actually get what they are saying to a degree, but I don't think they are going to change peoples' behavior. What they are getting at is many people are not taking advantage of the Fair Fares Program that are eligible and even those that have it are not using it enough and perhaps may be just skipping and not paying anything, so they are trying to say we don't want to punish people per se, but rather educate them and re-direct them to pay. There are also plenty of people that can afford to pay that aren't because so many now don't, so just changing the turnstiles isn't the only problem. Too many people don't understand that the fares are needed to keep the system going.

There are also people out here that scream and yell that transportation SHOULD be free. Key word being should... That's fine to discuss, but until it is actually free, people should be paying the fare. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Trainmaster5]

27 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

You can have POP style checks on the trains, or even on the platforms or by turnstiles. That's more of an issue with how NYPD operates.

NYPD? Operate in a way that is inconvenient because they said so? What a surprise.

Don't let the farebeaters enter the trains,  period. Any other method delays the riders who have no connection to the perps. My concern is for the movement of trains. Turnstile apprehension is best ,  IMO  , with platform stops a very distant second. POP on an SBS bus is one thing but POP on a subway in NYCT is a very different scenario. Cross honoring, postal workers in uniform,  NYPD  (in uniform or not) , NYCT or MABSTOA retirees, are some of the people allowed to ride for free in my experience. Same holds for the LIRR Conductor who actually do POP checks in the performance of their jobs. NYPD,  today,  is a different ballgame.  Those in RTO are now taught to defer to the NYPD or the FDNY when they arrive on the scene. I was taught by my instructors,  in a different era, to coordinate with the NYPD officers above the patrolman rank or with the FDNY Battalion Chief. I had a shooting incident once where only myself and a Captain from lower Manhattan interacted directly with each other on the scene and he and I relayed messages , me with my Command Center and he via his radio to his commander. One day, one stop away from there the FDNY was called for some reason I forget and when I made my station stop a Battalion Chief approached me about the call.  I happened to have an RTO superintendent riding with me who overheard me talking with the Chief.  When the Chief heard the superintendent identify himself the Chief ignored him and continued to talk to me. I had to call Command Center/RCC  because the Battalion Chief  ( old school ) would only deal with me or the Brooklyn Bridge Motor Instructor because we were Civil Service and the Superintendent position wasn't.  NYPD/ FDNY are supposedly in charge when they arrive on the scene but they always deferred to me when they had a question about third rail power removal. Just figured I'd give some context to my previous response.  Carry on. 

[Mtatransit]

48 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Don't let the farebeaters enter the trains,  period. Any other method delays the riders who have no connection to the perps. My concern is for the movement of trains. Turnstile apprehension is best ,  IMO  , with platform stops a very distant second. POP on an SBS bus is one thing but POP on a subway in NYCT is a very different scenario. Cross honoring, postal workers in uniform,  NYPD  (in uniform or not) , NYCT or MABSTOA retirees, are some of the people allowed to ride for free in my experience. Same holds for the LIRR Conductor who actually do POP checks in the performance of their jobs. NYPD,  today,  is a different ballgame.  Those in RTO are now taught to defer to the NYPD or the FDNY when they arrive on the scene. I was taught by my instructors,  in a different era, to coordinate with the NYPD officers above the patrolman rank or with the FDNY Battalion Chief. I had a shooting incident once where only myself and a Captain from lower Manhattan interacted directly with each other on the scene and he and I relayed messages , me with my Command Center and he via his radio to his commander. One day, one stop away from there the FDNY was called for some reason I forget and when I made my station stop a Battalion Chief approached me about the call.  I happened to have an RTO superintendent riding with me who overheard me talking with the Chief.  When the Chief heard the superintendent identify himself the Chief ignored him and continued to talk to me. I had to call Command Center/RCC  because the Battalion Chief  ( old school ) would only deal with me or the Brooklyn Bridge Motor Instructor because we were Civil Service and the Superintendent position wasn't.  NYPD/ FDNY are supposedly in charge when they arrive on the scene but they always deferred to me when they had a question about third rail power removal. Just figured I'd give some context to my previous response.  Carry on. 

I guess what I am trying to get at is that gates are not a effective way to deter fare evasions. People will continue to find ways to get around the gates without paying.

The best way to deter fare evasion would be random spot checks. In fact that is exactly what they do in France. They have high gates and spot checks. You just need to catch one person per train car, and it will make people think twice about not paying the fare.

While I respect your concern in that it would potentially delay service, I don't believe conducting spot checks on the train while in motion or on platforms would significantly delay service that much. I mean they gave me a ticket for moving between end cars while the train was in motion and simply pulled me off the next station.

People legally riding for free will get a slip from the agent allowing them to ride for free.

 

The side benefits of that is that the homeless population and the people currently smoking on trains who most likely didn't pay their fare, and will be legally evicted from the system

56 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually get what they are saying to a degree, but I don't think they are going to change peoples' behavior. What they are getting at is many people are not taking advantage of the Fair Fares Program that are eligible and even those that have it are not using it enough and perhaps may be just skipping and not paying anything, so they are trying to say we don't want to punish people per se, but rather educate them and re-direct them to pay. There are also plenty of people that can afford to pay that aren't because so many now don't, so just changing the turnstiles isn't the only problem. Too many people don't understand that the fares are needed to keep the system going.

There are also people out here that scream and yell that transportation SHOULD be free. Key word being should... That's fine to discuss, but until it is actually free, people should be paying the fare. 

People who yell that transportation should be free also believe that the  is making billions of dollars from them and that NYers are paying the highest train fares on earth... I wouldn't pay them much thought, but they certainty have a loud voice.

Fair fares definitely should be expanded. The current criteria is way too low for any full time and maybe even part time worker to qualify. However I doubt affordability is the main issue here. The main issue is entitlement and lack of enforcement. You can not convince me otherwise that the people shopping at SI mall with shoes and not a single person decided to pay their fare. Same thing with Prince Street. people with shopping bags full of stuff and they can't afford $2.75?

Some people can not pay the fare, but that number is no where near 12% of overall subway ridership and close to 40% on buses. My prediction is that next year 25% will skip the fare on subway and 50% on buses

In the mean time, everyone pays the MTA tax, yet the people paying the fare essentially pay double because some people don't want to pay, and MTA doesn't know how to enforce the fare

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Mtatransit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

People who yell that transportation should be free also believe that the  is making billions of dollars from them and that NYers are paying the highest train fares on earth... I wouldn't pay them much thought, but they certainty have a loud voice.

Fair fares definitely should be expanded. The current criteria is way too low for any full time and maybe even part time worker to qualify. However I doubt affordability is the main issue here. The main issue is entitlement and lack of enforcement. You can not convince me otherwise that the people shopping at SI mall with shoes and not a single person decided to pay their fare. Same thing with Prince Street. people with shopping bags full of stuff and they can't afford $2.75?

Some people can not pay the fare, but that number is no where near 12% of overall subway ridership and close to 40% on buses. My prediction is that next year 25% will skip the fare on subway and 50% on buses

In the mean time, everyone pays the MTA tax, yet the people paying the fare essentially pay double because some people don't want to pay, and MTA doesn't know how to enforce the fare

 

I totally agree with you, but there are people out here that will yell and scream about how they shouldn't be arrested or given summonses because God forbid people are held accountable for their actions, and some of these people are advocates that will talk about how it's all because of poverty, which is not the case. That's really the issue here. As we both noted, plenty of people can afford the $2.75 and simply aren't paying and I don't think that the  should have to re-configure hundreds of turnstiles for people that are hellbent on not paying. 

[jammerbot]

I just want to add some thoughts re: the conversation as to whether or not the MTA should be free. It should. Public transit, much like public education and other public services, was never meant to generate revenue. Now, the concept of fairbox recovery is a useful one, but consider what the NYC metro area would look like without the MTA. The entire economy would be shocked and shot. There's another form of public transit we don't talk about: roads. Most roads, which have the same utility as our busses and subways, are not tolled. Only the roads that are exceptionally expensive to maitain such as bridges and tunnels are tolled (analogous to railroad and express busses). This sort of connects to the discussion on congestion pricing. When our city imposes a fare on the most economical, environmentally friendly, and efficient way to move people but subsidizes the least economical, most environmentally costly, and least efficient way to move people, it sends a message about our city's priorities. I would like to live in a future NYC where public transit is the logical default, and I think that would involve either a zero-fair scheme or an equivalent (if not costlier) fare for vehicles (and yes, I understand that drivers have to make car payments and insurance payments, but that is one of the downsides of not choosing the public system). 

Tl;dr: Economic policies can spur or deter behaviors. If we want to see a healthier, friendlier, and more pleasant NYC, we have to begin envisioning an MTA without fares.

Edited June 21, 2022 by jammerbot

[U-BahnNYC]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:56 PM, jammerbot said:

I just want to add some thoughts re: the conversation as to whether or not the MTA should be free. It should. Public transit, much like public education and other public services, was never meant to generate revenue. Now, the concept of fairbox recovery is a useful one, but consider what the NYC metro area would look like without the MTA. The entire economy would be shocked and shot. There's another form of public transit we don't talk about: roads. Most roads, which have the same utility as our busses and subways, are not tolled. Only the roads that are exceptionally expensive to maitain such as bridges and tunnels are tolled (analogous to railroad and express busses). This sort of connects to the discussion on congestion pricing. When our city imposes a fare on the most economical, environmentally friendly, and efficient way to move people but subsidizes the least economical, most environmentally costly, and least efficient way to move people, it sends a message about our city's priorities. I would like to live in a future NYC where public transit is the logical default, and I think that would involve either a zero-fair scheme or an equivalent (if not costlier) fare for vehicles (and yes, I understand that drivers have to make car payments and insurance payments, but that is one of the downsides of not choosing the public system). 

Tl;dr: Economic policies can spur or deter behaviors. If we want to see a healthier, friendlier, and more pleasant NYC, we have to begin envisioning an MTA without fares.

I don't know of many places in the world where public transit is completely free for everyone. It is subsidized, yes, which makes it cheap, but not outright free.

What the  and NYC gets wrong is that the fare system is unreasonable. You pay $2.75 whether you are going 1 station or riding the entire line. Also, the monthly and weekly passes do NOT offer any sort of discount for frequent users. They should. I would gladly buy a monthly pass or even a yearly pass if it came out to be cheaper than paying $2.75 10 times each week. 

Then there is also the problem of mentality. In a civilized country like Germany, there are no fare gates at all on the U-Bahns. It is entirely an "proof of payment system" where there are random checks on board trains and station platform by armed transit officers who catch fare beaters and issue hefty fines. Such a system has many benefits and basically everybody pays the fare because they know there can be random checks done at any time. They also have reasonable discounts for frequent users, monthly passes and students. None of which New York has. The subway and NYC in general is stuck in an archaic mindset. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, U-BahnNYC said:

I don't know of many places in the world where public transit is completely free for everyone. It is subsidized, yes, which makes it cheap, but not outright free.

What the  and NYC gets wrong is that the fare system is unreasonable. You pay $2.75 whether you are going 1 station or riding the entire line. Also, the monthly and weekly passes do NOT offer any sort of discount for frequent users. They should. I would gladly buy a monthly pass or even a yearly pass if it came out to be cheaper than paying $2.75 10 times each week. 

Then there is also the problem of mentality. In a civilized country like Germany, there are no fare gates at all on the U-Bahns. It is entirely an "proof of payment system" where there are random checks on board trains and station platform by armed transit officers who catch fare beaters and issue hefty fines. Such a system has many benefits and basically everybody pays the fare because they know there can be random checks done at any time. They also have reasonable discounts for frequent users, monthly passes and students. None of which New York has. The subway and NYC in general is stuck in an archaic mindset. 

Oh please with your comparisons to Europe. There is no comparison.  The proof of payment system in Europe comes with its own problems.  Having lived in Europe (Italy), I saw rampant farebeating, on both the trains and buses. The checkers are few and far in between in some places.  I think in all of the times I used public transit living there, I can recall only being checked a handful of times, mainly for long trips such as Milan to Bologna where you are on a train for a few hours.  Once going from Florence to Pisa (the first time I went from Pisa to Florence I was not checked at all) by train, another time coming from Scandicci back to my place in Florence and a few other times, but there was one instance I recall where we had a checker on a bus. The bus was packed as we were in a busy part of the City Centre of Florence and the checker had to deal with so many fare beaters or people who had not stamped their ticket that he would've had to have gone several stops before he got everyone.  I got off shortly after, but there were a number of people that clearly buy tickets and then wait until a checker comes to then run to one of the machines on the bus and stamp their ticket.  If it's the train, they become familiar with what stops checkers come and get off before anyone comes to check.  Maybe Germany is a bit better in this regard, as I've only been in Frankfurt, but plenty of other European cities have a serious issue with the whole honor system, so I find your comments about being "civilized" comical.  The French are a good example where people constantly look to beat the fare.  Are they still considered civilized? lol

Second, the transit systems are heavily subsidized via high taxes and measures are taken to get people to not drive and use mass transit.  For example, taking taxis are expensive.  I can recall calling a taxi to and from my place one day because I was carrying something heavy and the meter was already running before I even got in the taxi.

 The 's  funding sources are varied and complex.  Yes, the fare is only $2.75, but you fail to realize how many times over that cost is subsidized, even if some people never used the . Fees from tolls, various surcharges on utility bills, congestion fee below 96th St and on and on. New York City is one of the highest taxed cities in the US, so $2.75 is a very reasonable fare.

The discounts could be more varied I agree, and I believe they will be once they finally finish with the OMNY issues and get it fully rolled out.

[Mtatransit]

6 hours ago, U-BahnNYC said:

I don't know of many places in the world where public transit is completely free for everyone. It is subsidized, yes, which makes it cheap, but not outright free.

What the  and NYC gets wrong is that the fare system is unreasonable. You pay $2.75 whether you are going 1 station or riding the entire line. Also, the monthly and weekly passes do NOT offer any sort of discount for frequent users. They should. I would gladly buy a monthly pass or even a yearly pass if it came out to be cheaper than paying $2.75 10 times each week. 

Then there is also the problem of mentality. In a civilized country like Germany, there are no fare gates at all on the U-Bahns. It is entirely an "proof of payment system" where there are random checks on board trains and station platform by armed transit officers who catch fare beaters and issue hefty fines. Such a system has many benefits and basically everybody pays the fare because they know there can be random checks done at any time. They also have reasonable discounts for frequent users, monthly passes and students. None of which New York has. The subway and NYC in general is stuck in an archaic mindset. 

Public transportation in New York is already extremely subsidized. 
 

Regarding passes I have a feeling you want to make the passes cheaper. It will not happen. On MNR/LIRR passes are a much better value, but that is only because their one way fares are (imo) outrageously high

Regarding POP I agree we need POP here in the subway AND buses. In my ideal world we will have exit AND entry gates as well as POP, this way someone will have to actively farebeat two times and be concerned about checker during their rides

In Germany those checkers show no mercy, either you have a valid ticket or you don’t, doesn’t matter if oh are a tourist, student, broke

[I love NY]

19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please with your comparisons to Europe. There is no comparison.  The proof of payment system in Europe comes with its own problems.  Having lived in Europe (Italy), I saw rampant farebeating, on both the trains and buses. The checkers are few and far in between in some places.  I think in all of the times I used public transit living there, I can recall only being checked a handful of times, mainly for long trips such as Milan to Bologna where you are on a train for a few hours.  Once going from Florence to Pisa (the first time I went from Pisa to Florence I was not checked at all) by train, another time coming from Scandicci back to my place in Florence and a few other times, but there was one instance I recall where we had a checker on a bus. The bus was packed as we were in a busy part of the City Centre of Florence and the checker had to deal with so many fare beaters or people who had not stamped their ticket that he would've had to have gone several stops before he got everyone.  I got off shortly after, but there were a number of people that clearly buy tickets and then wait until a checker comes to then run to one of the machines on the bus and stamp their ticket.  If it's the train, they become familiar with what stops checkers come and get off before anyone comes to check.  Maybe Germany is a bit better in this regard, as I've only been in Frankfurt, but plenty of other European cities have a serious issue with the whole honor system, so I find your comments about being "civilized" comical.  The French are a good example where people constantly look to beat the fare.  Are they still considered civilized? lol

Second, the transit systems are heavily subsidized via high taxes and measures are taken to get people to not drive and use mass transit.  For example, taking taxis are expensive.  I can recall calling a taxi to and from my place one day because I was carrying something heavy and the meter was already running before I even got in the taxi.

 The 's  funding sources are varied and complex.  Yes, the fare is only $2.75, but you fail to realize how many times over that cost is subsidized, even if some people never used the . Fees from tolls, various surcharges on utility bills, congestion fee below 96th St and on and on. New York City is one of the highest taxed cities in the US, so $2.75 is a very reasonable fare.

The discounts could be more varied I agree, and I believe they will be once they finally finish with the OMNY issues and get it fully rolled out.

And luckily you haven't been to Naples...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, I love NY said:

And luckily you haven't been to Naples...

I actually have been all over Italy, including Naples. What's wrong with Naples exactly?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Via Garibaldi 8

[I love NY]

On 1/4/2023 at 2:07 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I actually have been all over Italy, including Naples. What's wrong with Naples exactly?

The absurd average frequency of buses and subway!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

52 minutes ago, I love NY said:

The absurd average frequency of buses and subway!

That's just a reflection of the City and how poorly things are managed.  Unfortunately, there is a ton of corruption there with the Camorra and such, so dysfunctional rail and bus service is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the issues there.  When I traveled there by train (I remember well, as my train was insanely late), we were at least an hour behind schedule (this was on a Saturday morning), the bathroom I saw on the train was filthy and pretty much everything about the trip was dysfunctional.  In some ways it reminded me our system here in NYC, as no one knows anything when the sh*t hits the fan, so I just rolled with it. Not sure if the weather played any role, as it did rain that day, but nothing crazy.

If you've been there, you quickly understand that nothing works the way that it should. Not even the traffic lights. lol I quickly saw how things operated just walking around and just operated as I would in NYC when doing things like crossing the street, etc. When trash is not consistently picked up, you cannot expect an efficient transit system.

Since the original discussion was about HEETs, I'll tie this all together.  If NYC simply enforced what's on the books, new turnstile designs wouldn't be needed.  Chaos begets more chaos, and so all of the examples above show that. In Germany, things are pretty orderly overall, including fare enforcement and in the examples that contradict that, you see what you get.