HEETs: The Obvious solution?

[shiznit1987]

So I saw on abc 7 Janno Lieber talking about redesigning the turnstile to make farebeating harder. My question is during the 1990s you started seeing HEETs appearing everywhere and then suddenly around the early 2010s the MTA started taking them out. Why is that? Should the MTA reconsider going back to using HEETs as the default turnstyle?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, shiznit1987 said:

So I saw on abc 7 Janno Lieber talking about redesigning the turnstile to make farebeating harder. My question is during the 1990s you started seeing HEETs appearing everywhere and then suddenly around the early 2010s the MTA started taking them out. Why is that? Should the MTA reconsider going back to using HEETs as the default turnstyle?

They wanted to make the stations feel light and airy at the time. Stupid designs meant even more farebeating.

[rbrome]

A faregate redesign is long overdue. Visit almost any other system in the world and you'll find proven designs that are much more difficult to jump and are accessible for those in wheelchairs or with luggage. These things are not difficult, the MTA just needs to open its eyes to the world. 

To address the thread topic more directly, the "people chopper" design is not accessible, nor is it necessary. It would be more than adequate to simply use one of the many designs that comes up to chest level (instead of waist level), and extends down far enough that you can't just duck under it. 

[rbrome]

Here's a good example of the kind of faregate the MTA should be looking at: 

https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/mobility-and-transport/regaining-public-transport-safely_953182.html

[bobtehpanda]

HEETs are an obvious solution to having riders

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 hours ago, rbrome said:

A faregate redesign is long overdue. Visit almost any other system in the world and you'll find proven designs that are much more difficult to jump and are accessible for those in wheelchairs or with luggage. These things are not difficult, the MTA just needs to open its eyes to the world. 

To address the thread topic more directly, the "people chopper" design is not accessible, nor is it necessary. It would be more than adequate to simply use one of the many designs that comes up to chest level (instead of waist level), and extends down far enough that you can't just duck under it. 

This all sounds great, but no one is talking about where a cash strapped  is supposed to find the money to redesign and implement new HEETs.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This all sounds great, but no one is talking about where a cash strapped  is supposed to find the money to redesign and implement new HEETs.

I think you misread that.

[Wallyhorse]

23 hours ago, rbrome said:

Here's a good example of the kind of faregate the MTA should be looking at: 

https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/mobility-and-transport/regaining-public-transport-safely_953182.html

Yep.  That is EXACTLY what the should use.  I would use the same on much such transit systems in the US. 

[Wallyhorse]

Obviously I meant most such, NOT "much such" in the last post. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

I think you misread that.

Nope...

[VIP]

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yep.  That is EXACTLY what the should use.  I would use the same on much such transit systems in the US. 

Nah ! That’s not gonna work in New York City. Some will climb or crawl under those. Homeless/EDPs will smash those and they’ll be shattered. 

[Wallyhorse]

3 minutes ago, VIP said:

Nah ! That’s not gonna work in New York City. Some will climb or crawl under those. Homeless/EDPs will smash those and they’ll be shattered. 

Not if you use strong enough glass or plexiglass and make them tall enough where it's impossible to climb or crawl. 

[Around the Horn]

I'm pretty sure HEETs are no longer manufactured or something along those lines...

1 hour ago, VIP said:

Nah ! That’s not gonna work in New York City. Some will climb or crawl under those. Homeless/EDPs will smash those and they’ll be shattered. 

Cubic makes a version of this turnstile with metal/plastic paddles. We could use those instead.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

I'm pretty sure HEETs are no longer manufactured or something along those lines...

Cubic makes a version of this turnstile with metal/plastic paddles. We could use those instead.

Those would be a joke.

[QM1to6Ave]

One issue with HEETS I remember is that criminals would stick long screwdrivers or other metal objects in between the bars to trap people and rob them while going through. People are awful.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, QM1to6Ave said:

One issue with HEETS I remember is that criminals would stick long screwdrivers or other metal objects in between the bars to trap people and rob them while going through. People are awful.

Wow.... That I did not know, but not surprising. Sick...

[rbrome]

A new turnstile design doesn't have to be impenetrable, it just has to be more difficult to jump or duck. The current ones are SO easy for almost anyone to get past, that some people see it as an invitation. You don't even look silly doing it. In some cases, some people even think you "look cool" jumping it. And when it's so easy, some people think "Why not? I'd be stupid not to!" 

If you make it so that you have to crawl on your belly to duck it, or be an Olympic jumper to get over it, that's going to deter enough people to make a serious difference. A lot of people can pay the fare, they just don't feel like it when it's so easy not to. That's a design problem, and it's a really easy one to solve. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by rbrome

[Via Garibaldi 8]

34 minutes ago, rbrome said:

A new turnstile design doesn't have to be impenetrable, it just has to be more difficult to jump or duck. The current ones are SO easy for almost anyone to get past, that some people see it as an invitation. You don't even look silly doing it. In some cases, some people even think you "look cool" jumping it. And when it's so easy, some people think "Why not? I'd be stupid not to!" 

If you make it so that you have to crawl on your belly to duck it, or be an Olympic jumper to get over it, that's going to deter enough people to make a serious difference. A lot of people can pay the fare, they just don't feel like it when it's so easy not to. That's a design problem, and it's a really easy one to solve. 

I agree, but at the same time, I'm not of the belief that it would deter as many people as you may think.  They need to redesign the turnstiles AND the gate. I think more people go through the gate than anything else, so if you redesign the turnstile, one person may pay, open the gate and then let everyone else that doesn't want to pay walk through.  As I said though, redesigning and implementing new turnstiles for ~472 stations... That money has to come from somewhere.

I think for now they should focus on ramped up enforcement.  

[Lil 57]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I agree, but at the same time, I'm not of the belief that it would deter as many people as you may think.  They need to redesign the turnstiles AND the gate. I think more people go through the gate than anything else, so if you redesign the turnstile, one person may pay, open the gate and then let everyone else that doesn't want to pay walk through.  As I said though, redesigning and implementing new turnstiles for ~472 stations... That money has to come from somewhere.

I think for now they should focus on ramped up enforcement.  

I remember the times when the gates were used for emergency/accessibility only and would sound a alarm when you pushed it. IMO a wider fare gate should be constructed for wheelchair/strollers/luggage/etc... and the emergency gate should get rid of in its entirety. In an emergency, there should be a button (probably in the station master's office) to open all the fare gates to make it easier for people to exit the station.

BART is the perfect example of this:

Edited April 28, 2022 by Lil 57

[rbrome]

13 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I remember the times when the gates were used for emergency/accessibility only and would sound a alarm when you pushed it. IMO a wider fare gate should be constructed for wheelchair/strollers/luggage/etc...  ...

This. 

Making the emergency exits double as the "wide gates" was a mistake.

Every entrance should have at least one proper wide turnstile. Like every other system in the world. These solutions are not difficult. 

And the emergency exits should go back to being actual emergency exits only, with a really unpleasant alarm. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

36 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I remember the times when the gates were used for emergency/accessibility only and would sound a alarm when you pushed it. IMO a wider fare gate should be constructed for wheelchair/strollers/luggage/etc... and the emergency gate should get rid of in its entirety. In an emergency, there should be a button (probably in the station master's office) to open all the fare gates to make it easier for people to exit the station.

BART is the perfect example of this:

I honestly don't see how these deter fare beating. In fact, they look worse than what currently exists.  I see people going under the turnstiles all the time.  

[QM1to6Ave]

7 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

I remember the times when the gates were used for emergency/accessibility only and would sound a alarm when you pushed it. IMO a wider fare gate should be constructed for wheelchair/strollers/luggage/etc... and the emergency gate should get rid of in its entirety. In an emergency, there should be a button (probably in the station master's office) to open all the fare gates to make it easier for people to exit the station.

BART is the perfect example of this:

 

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I honestly don't see how these deter fare beating. In fact, they look worse than what currently exists.  I see people going under the turnstiles all the time.  

Yeah, why don't they have a third set of those red things on the bottom? That would make it impossible to go under. I guess you might be able to climb over the top, but that requires a fair amount of effort

[bobtehpanda]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:40 PM, Around the Horn said:

I'm pretty sure HEETs are no longer manufactured or something along those lines...

Cubic makes a version of this turnstile with metal/plastic paddles. We could use those instead.

These are quite effective (mind the source, it's the only one with the video still) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5221063/Fare-dodger-suffers-ultimate-humiliation.html

 

Quote

Mind the chap! 'Fare-dodger' suffers the ultimate humiliation after getting his manhood STUCK while leaping the barriers at a London tube station

A 'fare-dodger' who apparently tried to jump the barriers at a London Underground station really was struck by karma after his manhood became stuck in the doors.

The man's screams of agony can be heard as people line up to witness the incident.    

Police and London underground staff members worked to free the young man from his entrapment at Covent Garden tube station. 

Crowds gathered around the gates to watch as the man's screams became louder and some called for 'butter' to free him. 

Finally, officers are able to free the man to cheers from the growing crowd as the man is let down safely. 

Before he staggers away the man can be seen turning back on himself to hug the members of staff and police officers who helped.

At first his friends seem to be trying to calm him down but as the video continues and the audience expands, a jeering nature seems to occur. 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by bobtehpanda

[Mtatransit]

12 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

I remember the times when the gates were used for emergency/accessibility only and would sound a alarm when you pushed it. IMO a wider fare gate should be constructed for wheelchair/strollers/luggage/etc... and the emergency gate should get rid of in its entirety. In an emergency, there should be a button (probably in the station master's office) to open all the fare gates to make it easier for people to exit the station.

BART is the perfect example of this:

BART is a terrible example for fare beating deterrence lol. That system is essentially free from the amount of people I see going through the emergency gates. 

Aleast our E-gates are locked, those on BART are completely unlocked. You can literally open the gate and walk in/out... what a joke

Also those gates are only at Richmond Station. Most gates still only have the bottom one. Also it wasn't until recently that BART decided to add pressure to some of these doors. What that mean is that previously, if you pull the gate slightly, it will just open. Now with air pressure it takes much more force to open. There are still numerous stations without air pressure gates, meaning people just pull the gates and it would open which means free ride

The elevators in BART stations are also a joke... Since some BART station have elevators that go directly from street level to platform, bypassing fare control, the proper protocol would be to tap your fare on a validator next to the elevator, and get on the elevator, but as you can imagine, people don't do that...

Its so bad that BART has random checks on trains, but as you can imagine fare beating is still pretty bad systemwide. You could tell BART was designed for a different era of commuters...

12 hours ago, rbrome said:

This. 

Making the emergency exits double as the "wide gates" was a mistake.

Every entrance should have at least one proper wide turnstile. Like every other system in the world. These solutions are not difficult. 

And the emergency exits should go back to being actual emergency exits only, with a really unpleasant alarm. 

They are doubling down on this by allowing autogates access to anyone. I know its more convenient to passengers with large bags, but now a group of 7 only has to pay one fare. (not that they pay anyways, as one will jump over and open the door for everyone so MTA get 0.

 

 

Didn't MTA say they are testing wide gates at 5 stations or something... haven't seen anything like it.

 

On 4/28/2022 at 12:40 AM, Around the Horn said:

I'm pretty sure HEETs are no longer manufactured or something along those lines...

Cubic makes a version of this turnstile with metal/plastic paddles. We could use those instead.

The doors need to be taller and thicker, and there should be two sets of gates one for exit, and one for entry. This way passengers don't (as I seen in other system) reach over and wave the sensors inside the gates, which then will open allowing free entry.

Also these gates while a improvement over the current emergency doors, still allow multiple entries with one tap. In fact you will probably see 3-4 people going through at once.

 

What I think need to happen is for MTA to get these new gates have tap on/off, AND have Eagle teams patrol trains selecting random people for fare inspection. Gates won't deter fare evasions because once you get over you are free... 

 

 

That being said, the fare evasion on buses is even worse... I am THIS CLOSE to join the others in not paying soon, because I am sick of being the only person donating to the MTA.... it obviously seems like the MTA has no plans to do anything about it... they have the eagle team doing SBS, how come they can't expand the force and do patrols on local... why do they need a study on how to reduce fare evasion? 

A STUDY ON HOW TO REDUCE FARE EVASION? REALLY?? Have someone enforce the fare, have consequences for that person not paying the fare... doesn't have to be jail time or monetary... how hard is that, maybe the MTA should give me a couple of million for releasing my findings

Hell I'll even give you the locations on where you should patrol...

Edited April 29, 2022 by Mtatransit

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

BART is a terrible example for fare beating deterrence lol. That system is essentially free from the amount of people I see going through the emergency gates. 

Aleast our E-gates are locked, those on BART are completely unlocked. You can literally open the gate and walk in/out... what a joke

Also those gates are only at Richmond Station. Most gates still only have the bottom one. Also it wasn't until recently that BART decided to add pressure to some of these doors. What that mean is that previously, if you pull the gate slightly, it will just open. Now with air pressure it takes much more force to open. There are still numerous stations without air pressure gates, meaning people just pull the gates and it would open which means free ride

The elevators in BART stations are also a joke... Since some BART station have elevators that go directly from street level to platform, bypassing fare control, the proper protocol would be to tap your fare on a validator next to the elevator, and get on the elevator, but as you can imagine, people don't do that...

Its so bad that BART has random checks on trains, but as you can imagine fare beating is still pretty bad systemwide. You could tell BART was designed for a different era of commuters...

They are doubling down on this by allowing autogates access to anyone. I know its more convenient to passengers with large bags, but now a group of 7 only has to pay one fare. (not that they pay anyways, as one will jump over and open the door for everyone so MTA get 0.

 

 

Didn't MTA say they are testing wide gates at 5 stations or something... haven't seen anything like it.

 

The doors need to be taller and thicker, and there should be two sets of gates one for exit, and one for entry. This way passengers don't (as I seen in other system) reach over and wave the sensors inside the gates, which then will open allowing free entry.

Also these gates while a improvement over the current emergency doors, still allow multiple entries with one tap. In fact you will probably see 3-4 people going through at once.

 

What I think need to happen is for MTA to get these new gates have tap on/off, AND have Eagle teams patrol trains selecting random people for fare inspection. Gates won't deter fare evasions because once you get over you are free... 

 

 

That being said, the fare evasion on buses is even worse... I am THIS CLOSE to join the others in not paying soon, because I am sick of being the only person donating to the MTA.... it obviously seems like the MTA has no plans to do anything about it... they have the eagle team doing SBS, how come they can't expand the force and do patrols on local... why do they need a study on how to reduce fare evasion? 

A STUDY ON HOW TO REDUCE FARE EVASION? REALLY?? Have someone enforce the fare, have consequences for that person not paying the fare... doesn't have to be jail time or monetary... how hard is that, maybe the MTA should give me a couple of million for releasing my findings

Hell I'll even give you the locations on where you should patrol...

I hope you aren’t being serious with the suggestion that Eagle teams patrol the subway. I’ve operated trains after 9/11 with extra police patrols and it was a disaster. We had undercover cops who carried special tech, especially on trains that traversed the under river tunnels. There were some medical institutions on the East Side that did chemo work. Riders enter downtown  or  .  Union Square was one stop that stood out. Train gets to Bowling Green and we wait while the officers pull people off the train because the instruments detected something out of the ordinary. RCC is on the radio asking me, my C/R, and the ATD what’s going on. The other riders are agitated and delayed. Finally the police let the medical patients back on the train and we close up and head into the river tube. Now multiply that because the medical patients readily complied with the police and the farebeaters will definitely do the opposite and you have a recipe for disaster. My take. Carry on.