Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Wallyhorse]

The first of my revised lines. The 5th Avenue Line is two tracks wide and from it's connection with the Concourse to the WTC, is exactly 10 Miles with 22 stations. It will be the only one of the new lines to be built with Tunnel Boring Machines as 5th Avenue is one of the streets with the most congestion which makes Cut-and-Cover impossible. Therefore, it would be the most expensive as well. I haven't decided on a color yet, but Pink is a large candidate in my book. Keeping it black would be the other if I didn't plan on using that for the Light Rail lines in the outer boroughs. This line would be serviced by the H route. It would run from Bedford Park Boulevard to the World Trade Center. This line would provide an alternate route to Midtown from the Concourse Line and therefore reduce crowding. Another line from the East Bronx would connect with this one, though it's exact routing has not been specified yet. A more detailed map will come out when I finish the grand scheme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feedback is welcomed. The next extension would be the extension of the from Hudson Yards south to 23rd Street, then East to the FDR to provide another crosstown route and connect with the 1st Avenue Line.

Most notable here is how all of the stops alongside Central Park coincide with the vestibule points (66th, 79th, 84-85 and 96-97).  I would have added one more stop at 72nd Street given that is a major entry/exit point into Central Park on 5th Avenue, but otherwise, that seems to work well.

 

Also very good is having the line after 8th Street come across to run at The Bowery.  Especially if running under the however, I would likely add a Broadway-Lafayette stop there to allow for transfers between the new lines and the other lines and an additional transfer point between the other lines as well.

[asi14]

This would probably be a suicide operation, but is it possible to extend the G train to Coney Island?

[LTA1992]

Most notable here is how all of the stops alongside Central Park coincide with the vestibule points (66th, 79th, 84-85 and 96-97).  I would have added one more stop at 72nd Street given that is a major entry/exit point into Central Park on 5th Avenue, but otherwise, that seems to work well.

 

Also very good is having the line after 8th Street come across to run at The Bowery.  Especially if running under the however, I would likely add a Broadway-Lafayette stop there to allow for transfers between the new lines and the other lines and an additional transfer point between the other lines as well.

I was looking into how the line could proceed past the park. The original idea was to cut straight through and head south. But then the question was, what next? I chose Bowery because it provides more transfers with 6th Avenue trains to help reduce rush hour crowds on that line. About 72nd Street, I actually almost put one there. But I then realized that as an all local seving 10 miles of line, it would be better to just let it pass it. Besides, the M72 transfer was actually what I was worried about, but I then realized that that could still be achieved at 65th-66th Streets. Plus, there are many entrances to the Park closer to the subway stations. So accessibility is not an issue.

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Next up is an extension of the from 25th Street one block south to 24th, then head east along 23rd to Peter Cooper Village for connections with the 1st Avenue Subway. Let me not forget to mention that each of these new lines are CBTC equipped from the jump. Sp train frequencies are of no issue.

 

 

 

As some may know, this was not part of the original plans, but recently, I've decided that more crosstown lines are needed as there never have been enough. The M23 corridor is painfully slow, so this line would exist to reduce travel times for people who live, work, and shop along this major thru street.

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Finally, for this post, is the South Bronx Line. In versions 1-4, the South Bronx Line was a 4-Track line from the 3rd Avenue Trunk to White Plains Road and Lafayette Avenue. After that point, the line continued as 2-Tracks to Throgs Neck, terminating at Harding and Tremont Avenues. I have decided that the entire line should be 2-Tracks with wider stop spacing as it would be making all local stops via 5th Avenue to the World Trade Center. Also, line construction. As much as subway is the preferred way, after visiting Paris and seeing how quite the elevated portions of Line 2 are (Line 6 is even quieter, but that was due to rubber tire conversion), they can also be beautiful. Working with the people of the neighborhood, an attractive design can be chosen that does not have to have pillars in the roadway. Depending on the area along it's length, there could be pillars on the sidewalk with the two tracks placed close to them. Island platforms with those stations. In the area with a central median, that median could be widened slightly and concrete pillars can be placed in the center, with the two roads running on top and side platforms at stations with pillars on the sidewalk supporting them. At the end of it all, it would double as a road improvement project. If chosen, the elevated portion would start just west of Boynton Avenue Station.

 

 

 

 

 

Expect the Part Trois later today.

[Wallyhorse]

As for the extension along 23rd Street:

I would actually take that further along 1st Avenue, with the line turning at 23rd Street and 1st downtown, with additional stops at:

14th Street (Transfer to )
Houston/1st Street (Transfer to and eventually )
East Broadway-Allen Street

Line then would go across East Broadway to Chatham Square (Transfer to ) and then across Worth Street to a terminal at Worth-Centre Streets (Transfer to )

That to me I think would work, even if you have to go a bit of a roundabout route to get to Queens.

[Armandito]

A few days ago I considered a proposal to switch the peak directional Myrtle-Marcy express service by having the run express and the run local. Would this proposal work?

[LTA1992]

As for the extension along 23rd Street:

 

I would actually take that further along 1st Avenue, with the line turning at 23rd Street and 1st downtown, with additional stops at:

 

14th Street (Transfer to )

Houston/1st Street (Transfer to and eventually )

East Broadway-Allen Street

 

Line then would go across East Broadway to Chatham Square (Transfer to ) and then across Worth Street to a terminal at Worth-Centre Streets (Transfer to )

 

That to me I think would work, even if you have to go a bit of a roundabout route to get to Queens.

There is already a 1st Avenue Line in my plans. There is absolutely no need to take the entire as a roundabout to Queens. When I get to the more detailed maps, showing services and every station name on the maps, then I will talk about station designs. Like with the , there will be a station (likely 25th Street-11th Avenue) where half of the services terminate so that more trains can quickly serve the more congested sections railroad north of Times Square.

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This next post will talk about the Third Avenue section of the new East Side Trunk, as well as its branches and the effects on existing service. 

 

The Third Avenue-Riverdale Line in versions one through four was originally a line that started out in the north as 2-Tracks, then became 4-Tracks, then 6-Tracks. There was also a short stub for local trains to Riverdale Park not far from the Spuyten Duyvil Metro-North Station. With these major revisions, the nine is now 2-Tracks until north of Fordham Plaza. The Riverdale Park branch and station have been taken out of the plans. The Allerton Avenue Line has half as many stations as it did originally and runs local all the way downtown. The Boston Road Line has not changed in physical structure, but it now has 1/3 less stations and at least two have been slightly moved or merged for better connections and speed. Also, trains from this line will run local as far as Union Avenue-Broadway in Brooklyn. It would then run Express down Utica Avenue to Sheepshead Bay.

 

Third Avenue-Riverdale Line

 

 

 

 

The Allerton Avenue Line

 

 

 

 

And lastly, the Boston Road Line

 

 

 

 

I actually lied. There was a slight change in the physical routing of the Boston Road Line. I chose to swing it north then east onto Tremont so it could have a cross platform transfer with the Tremont Avenue-Crosstown Line.

 

The next part will probably come tomorrow.

Edited September 16, 2015 by LTA1992

[Wallyhorse]

Noticed up to Fordham Plaza it would essentially be a revival of the Bronx 3rd Avenue El I previously proposed for a Bronx portion of a full 3rd Avenue El and/or SAS Branch (with if the 3rd Avenue El ever did get rebuilt to BMT/IND standards serving as a Bronx portion of both lines).  Mine (previously noted) would include a new stop at 138th Street that would have a transfer to the but otherwise, the stops, while consolidated from the old El would be very much along the same lines in The Bronx.

[Javier]

Has anyone seen the extension to the Rockaways via LIRR?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Has anyone seen the extension to the Rockaways via LIRR?

I'm pretty sure everyone has. It's been discussed on here before. Not for a while, but it has. I don't think extending the to the Rockaways is the best option for reusing the Rockaway Beach Branch. I think the or are better options for the RBB. Or extend the Rock Park (which would then officially be designated as the ) to a new platform under Woodhaven Blvd. Any of those options should include converting the existing Woodhaven Blvd station to an express stop to relieve overcrowding on the Queens Blvd locals and at Roosevelt Ave.

[Javier]

Someone remind me where the actual RBB terminates at in Queens (or Brooklyn)

 

Because quite frankly, the idea is great and all, but that would require demolishing and rebuilding stations, the total cost maybe 10$ Billion dollars.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It sounds like more people who live along the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line tend to prefer Midtown Manhattan over Lower Manhattan, hence why the current service is very popular. That's why I'm suggesting to switch the weekday peak directional service by having the run express and the run local. With that in mind, passengers can have a faster trip to Midtown Manhattan. What do you think?

A few days ago I considered a proposal to switch the peak directional Myrtle-Marcy express service by having the run express and the run local. Would this proposal work?

I see you really couldn't wait for an answer to this one

 

That said, even though the current is quite a bit more popular than the pre-June 2010 M was, I don't think it's a good idea to make it the peak-direction express between Myrtle and Marcy and run the local. While the and would be able to stay on the same track between Kosciusko and Myrtle, the inbound would have to switch twice before entering Myrtle. It already has to the first switch slowly to join the J, so now just imagine M trains having to take another switch just as slowly to get to the middle track. And then have to merge back in with the J so they can stop at Marcy. Doesn't sound like much of an express run to me. It will save very little time - if any - over the current local run. That's what you get when you have a middle track that ends at a bumper block within the Marcy Ave station limits, followed by a slow curve onto the Williamsburg Bridge. But with high ridership and multiple bus connections, express trains have to stop at Marcy and that's the only way they can.

Edited September 17, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[trainfanrod]

Someone remind me where the actual RBB terminates at in Queens (or Brooklyn)

 

Because quite frankly, the idea is great and all, but that would require demolishing and rebuilding stations, the total cost maybe 10$ Billion dollars.

i need clarification too when it leaves QBLD does it have a ramp to turn off to RBB

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Someone remind me where the actual RBB terminates at in Queens (or Brooklyn)

Because quite frankly, the idea is great and all, but that would require demolishing and rebuilding stations, the total cost maybe 10$ Billion dollars.

The RBB is located entirely in Queens. The out-of-service part of the branch runs from Rego Park (in the area near Austin St and 65th Ave, aka Whitepot Junction) to Ozone Park where it crosses over Liberty Ave and under the Lefferts Blvd branch. The in-service part of the RBB is south of Liberty Ave and is the part currently used by the Far Rockaway along with the Rock Park from Broad Channel on down. How on this Earth could it possibly cost 10 billion dollars to rebuild the unused part of the branch? The branch is located entirely above ground, so no tunneling is needed. I mean, come on...construction costs in this city may be ridiculously high, but not THAT ridiculously high! Especially given that the branch south of Liberty is still in use and nothing much really needs to be done on that section to allow trains coming from northern Queens to run to the Rockaways. Edited September 17, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Javier]

Then how will the come out from QBL? They need to build a tunnel to allow the to connect.

[LTA1992]

Then how will the come out from QBL? They need to build a tunnel to allow the to connect.

There is already a provision built for that connection. The BOT made sure IND subways had provisions for Second Phase expansion.

 

On the topic of lines I am proposing, I have been doing some research into Tunnel Boring Machines. It is, in fact, possible to build 4-Track Lines with a single TBM. The Multi-Face TBM can, in fact, build a tunnel of such configuration. Using that technology, the only Cut-and-Cover stations would need to be the Express stations. The other option is using two Double-Os running side by side to build a 4-Track Line. So the Manhattan, Lower Bronx (Up to 149th Street Station), and Williamsburg sections of the 1st Avenue Line can in fact be built as TBM. The 10th Avenue Line would still be built as Cut-and-Cover as congestion on that avenue is nowhere near the degree as those on the east side.

Edited September 17, 2015 by LTA1992

[Wallyhorse]

I'm pretty sure everyone has. It's been discussed on here before. Not for a while, but it has. I don't think extending the to the Rockaways is the best option for reusing the Rockaway Beach Branch. I think the or are better options for the RBB. Or extend the Rock Park (which would then officially be designated as the ) to a new platform under Woodhaven Blvd. Any of those options should include converting the existing Woodhaven Blvd station to an express stop to relieve overcrowding on the Queens Blvd locals and at Roosevelt Ave.

Because of capacity issues, right now the is probably the best of a bad group of options for such a line given it would likely make the a 24/7 line by doing that.  Doing it with the would make for too long of a route and I think any route that would be on the RBB would need a full-time Manhattan segment.

 

My original plan for this would have been to have a new train be full-time between Whitehall Street and Rockaway Park with the returning to being the main Astoria line (and back to 24/7 while the becomes the supplemental Astoria line), but doing so would require a change of southern terminals for at least the and one other line so the has a yard to go to at one end.  

[Javier]

Oh lord not the thing again...

Wallyhorse, I respect you and all but seriosuly, the idea isn't good.

 

I thought about extentending the via RBB instead.

[bobtehpanda]

Oh lord not the thing again...

Wallyhorse, I respect you and all but seriosuly, the idea isn't good.

 

I thought about extentending the via RBB instead.

 

To be honest, this is one of the rare cases where the gist of Wallyhorse's idea isn't that terrible, assuming the RBB gets built. The can't go because there's not enough capacity on the QBL local for the to use it anyways, and using the isn't too great of an idea due to the lack of appropriate terminals or track capacity to send an additional service to.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Because of capacity issues, right now the is probably the best of a bad group of options for such a line given it would likely make the a 24/7 line by doing that. Doing it with the would make for too long of a route and I think any route that would be on the RBB would need a full-time Manhattan segment.

 

My original plan for this would have been to have a new train be full-time between Whitehall Street and Rockaway Park with the returning to being the main Astoria line (and back to 24/7 while the becomes the supplemental Astoria line), but doing so would require a change of southern terminals for at least the and one other line so the has a yard to go to at one end.

The is my preferred option because it runs shorter, 480-foot trains, while the runs full-length 600-foot trains. Although it's difficult to predict ridership at potential new stations on the RBB without doing a serious study, I have a strong hunch that all of them will have lower weekday ridership than 67th Ave, the one QB local stop that will lose either the M or R. In 2014, 67th Ave had an average weekday ridership of 9,544. While that may be low by QB standards, it's much, much higher than anything on the Rockaway Park S stations, where daily ridership can be measured in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands on Queens Blvd. It would be a huge mistake to leave the M with its shorter trains as the only train serving 67th Ave, not to mention making the R a ridiculously long route as the RBB service.

 

On the other hand, I don't think the MTA wants to run a 24/7 M train on Queens Blvd. I think they'd like to keep just three weekend services so they can do weekend G.O.'s as they do now (why do you think from 2002-10 the weekend G almost never ran to 71st Ave, even though they showed it on the maps and signs?).

 

In fact, it seems like they're kind of sour on running more than three weekend services on any line, so I don't think they'll be particularly receptive to your 24/7 proposal, because then either the , or would have to be cut off from the Broadway Line on weekends and/or late nights.

Edited September 17, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[NewFlyer 230]

Because of capacity issues, right now the is probably the best of a bad group of options for such a line given it would likely make the a 24/7 line by doing that. Doing it with the would make for too long of a route and I think any route that would be on the RBB would need a full-time Manhattan segment.

 

My original plan for this would have been to have a new train be full-time between Whitehall Street and Rockaway Park with the returning to being the main Astoria line (and back to 24/7 while the becomes the supplemental Astoria line), but doing so would require a change of southern terminals for at least the and one other line so the has a yard to go to at one end.

No way bro I like the on Queens Blvd. There is no way for the to go to Rockaway Park without building some type of new track connections. Those riders have the and they barely use. Go out to Rockaway Park sit around for a bit at one of the stations and watch how many people are on those trains. The majority of people don't even put up with service down there and get on the Q53's. If the by then is routed along 2nd Ave to 96th street and the and run along Astoria something has to run along Queens Blvd. As much as some of us want the to run along Queens Blvd it is not worth it because it is not going to benefit the ones seeking Manhattan. If 53rd Street has the then what are Broadway riders going to use for service along Queens Blvd?

[bobtehpanda]

No way bro I like the on Queens Blvd. There is no way for the to go to Rockaway Park without building some type of new track connections. Those riders have the and they barely use. Go out to Rockaway Park sit around for a bit at one of the stations and watch how many people are on those trains. The majority of people don't even put up with service down there and get on the Q53's. If the by then is routed along 2nd Ave to 96th street and the and run along Astoria something has to run along Queens Blvd. As much as some of us want the to run along Queens Blvd it is not worth it because it is not going to benefit the ones seeking Manhattan. If 53rd Street has the then what are Broadway riders going to use for service along Queens Blvd?

 

Any RBB train doesn't have to go all the way to the Rockaways; they can terminate at Howard Beach. And if you use the preexisting connections, the only two stops you pull the off of are 67 Av and Forest Hills, so you're not actually taking local service away from too many people. (The connection is east of 63 Dr - Rego Park, if i remember correctly.)

[NewFlyer 230]

Any RBB train doesn't have to go all the way to the Rockaways; they can terminate at Howard Beach. And if you use the preexisting connections, the only two stops you pull the off of are 67 Av and Forest Hills, so you're not actually taking local service away from too many people. (The connection is east of 63 Dr - Rego Park, if i remember correctly.)

Oh wow so you are talking as if the Rockway line was connected to the QBL. I know Roosevelt Ave has a upper level station terminal but where would the line merge from if the Rockaway line was connected to the QBL? Edited September 18, 2015 by NewFlyer 230

[Wallyhorse]

No way bro I like the on Queens Blvd. There is no way for the to go to Rockaway Park without building some type of new track connections. Those riders have the and they barely use. Go out to Rockaway Park sit around for a bit at one of the stations and watch how many people are on those trains. The majority of people don't even put up with service down there and get on the Q53's. If the by then is routed along 2nd Ave to 96th street and the and run along Astoria something has to run along Queens Blvd. As much as some of us want the to run along Queens Blvd it is not worth it because it is not going to benefit the ones seeking Manhattan. If 53rd Street has the then what are Broadway riders going to use for service along Queens Blvd?

The point is the would be on QB except for 67th Drive and 71-Continental.   The likely would become a 24/7 line (possibly to 179 at least during peak hours) if that happened since that would give Broadway-Brooklyn riders midtown.  Main drawback is you need a second line to QBP, so you'd likely look at the and switching south terminals since the has Concourse Yard (perhaps in a change from what I noted previously with the being the second line to Astoria from 5:30 AM-10:00 PM weekdays and the rest of the time supplementing the to 96th/2nd).

 

That said, the as noted for now makes the most sense for the RBB because it provides the least amount of disruption and likely would be 24/7, especially given that may need to eventually happen anyway due to growth on the Brooklyn end of the line.

[bobtehpanda]

Oh wow so you are talking as if the Rockway line was connected to the QBL. I know Roosevelt Ave has a upper level station terminal but where would the line merge from if the Rockaway line was connected to the QBL?

 

When the line was constructed, turnouts east of 63 Dr - Rego Park were constructed. That would be where the line would go.

 

Roosevelt has an upper level, but you'd need to finish it somehow without closing the station if you were to extend the there.

[Wallyhorse]

Bringing over from the thread on line expansion:

 

The  ,  ,   should be extended south. If anything needs to go east, it's the  ; it's way easier for buses to feed into subway stations on Hillside than it is for them to feed into stations on Jamaica Av. Hillside/Springfield is so large that it would be perfect for a large terminal setup.

 

As I've said before on this, such an extension of the needs to be where the lines eventually wind up at a new terminal at Belmont Park, running most likely along Jamaica Avenue before dipping southeast around Francis Lewis Boulevard to Hempstead Avenue.  Such can be done where there is a station directly outside the main track entrance that is open at all times with another entrance open when Belmont Park is for live racing or simulcasting, with the trains then going to a mini-yard underneath the parking lot at Belmont Park that would be built to be a barebones station that would be only open on Belmont Stakes Day and certain other special events unless such is also used as a park-and-ride facility (which it actually could be most of the year).