Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[bobtehpanda]

Bringing over from the thread on line expansion:

 

 

As I've said before on this, such an extension of the needs to be where the lines eventually wind up at a new terminal at Belmont Park, running most likely along Jamaica Avenue before dipping southeast around Francis Lewis Boulevard to Hempstead Avenue.  Such can be done where there is a station directly outside the main track entrance that is open at all times with another entrance open when Belmont Park is for live racing or simulcasting, with the trains then going to a mini-yard underneath the parking lot at Belmont Park that would be built to be a barebones station that would be only open on Belmont Stakes Day and certain other special events unless such is also used as a park-and-ride facility (which it actually could be most of the year).

 

First of all, only the or the should be extended to one terminal; if you're extending both, they shouldn't go to the same terminal.

 

Second of all, to end it at Belmont Park is stupid, because access to the lots is not particularly good anyways, and also extending it to a racetrack that is extremely busy one day out of the year is a colossal waste of money. As I've said before, extending any train line east along the LIRR line is also a bad idea, because it is badly placed for bus connections. All buses in the east currently continue north of the tracks onto Hillside and turn towards Jamaica there, so that is the logical road to extend a subway under.

[NY1635]

Bringing over from the thread on line expansion:

 

 

As I've said before on this, such an extension of the  needs to be where the lines eventually wind up at a new terminal at Belmont Park, running most likely along Jamaica Avenue before dipping southeast around Francis Lewis Boulevard to Hempstead Avenue.  Such can be done where there is a station directly outside the main track entrance that is open at all times with another entrance open when Belmont Park is for live racing or simulcasting, with the trains then going to a mini-yard underneath the parking lot at Belmont Park that would be built to be a barebones station that would be only open on Belmont Stakes Day and certain other special events unless such is also used as a park-and-ride facility (which it actually could be most of the year).

 

It's not going to work, people from both Nassau and Queens are going to bail at Springfield Blvd to connect to the buses, leaving the empty when it approaches this hypothetical Belmont Park terminal. n1 and n6 folk aren't going to run across the lot to catch their bus on the Hempstead Turnpike, and Nassau won't really tolerate a subway close to their borders.

Edited September 20, 2015 by NY1635

[Wallyhorse]

First of all, only the or the should be extended to one terminal; if you're extending both, they shouldn't go to the same terminal.

 

Second of all, to end it at Belmont Park is stupid, because access to the lots is not particularly good anyways, and also extending it to a racetrack that is extremely busy one day out of the year is a colossal waste of money. As I've said before, extending any train line east along the LIRR line is also a bad idea, because it is badly placed for bus connections. All buses in the east currently continue north of the tracks onto Hillside and turn towards Jamaica there, so that is the logical road to extend a subway under.

The idea of going to Belmont Park is the stop would be outside Belmont on Hempstead Avenue (the very end of such) with an additional exit inside the track.  This entrance would actually be accessible for people walking over from nearby in Nassau County where the avenue continues and would be the closest to Nassau County a subway station can be.

 

The mini-yard can be done under the parking lot and can store trains there.   It can double as a barebones station on the one or two such days would be needed, but it's main purpose would be as a yard first.  

Edited September 20, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[bobtehpanda]

The idea of going to Belmont Park is the stop would be outside Belmont on Hempstead Avenue (the very end of such) with an additional exit inside the track.  This entrance would actually be accessible for people walking over from nearby in Nassau County where the avenue continues and would be the closest to Nassau County a subway station can be.

 

The mini-yard can be done under the parking lot and can store trains there.   It can double as a barebones station on the one or two such days would be needed, but it's main purpose would be as a yard first.  

 

The track is way too far from Hempstead Av to work. And nearly all site locations at Belmont Park suck; if you put it at the existing LIRR stop, your neighbor is the Cross Island and a sea of asphalt. If you put it at Hempstead Turnpike, you are surrounded by parking lots (none of which are going to be developed if you want to use it as a P+R), and Hempstead Turnpike itself is an actual highway at this location, complete with full-speed cloverleaf ramps and no sidewalks. It's a terrible place to put a station. Even LIRR QV is worse of a location than Hillside/Springfield, because Hillside/Springfield has the advantage of multiple very busy bus routes on Hillside, and a bigger station location. And I'm not going to get into how uneconomical decking rail yards or building underground ones is.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The point is the would be on QB except for 67th Drive and 71-Continental. The likely would become a 24/7 line (possibly to 179 at least during peak hours) if that happened since that would give Broadway-Brooklyn riders midtown. Main drawback is you need a second line to QBP, so you'd likely look at the and switching south terminals since the has Concourse Yard (perhaps in a change from what I noted previously with the being the second line to Astoria from 5:30 AM-10:00 PM weekdays and the rest of the time supplementing the to 96th/2nd).

 

That said, the as noted for now makes the most sense for the RBB because it provides the least amount of disruption and likely would be 24/7, especially given that may need to eventually happen anyway due to growth on the Brooklyn end of the line.

Rehabbing the RBB and connecting it to the Queens Blvd line isn't be the kind of project that should result in significant multiple service changes across the entire B Division. It isn't necessarily to completely change the and lines in Brooklyn and the in Queens (not to mention rerouting the R to 2nd Ave on nights/weekends) to accommodate an RBB service on Queens Blvd. Any change to existing services should be limited only to those lines that directly connect onto the RBB and - if necessary - the lines on Queens Blvd that operate with that service.

 

In other words, if the R were to be chosen to go onto the RBB, then it would be the M that should also see changes to its service. Maybe also the F if the MTA doesn't want a weekend or 24/7 M on Queens Blvd - which may be the case. Leave the D, N, W and other lines out of it.

Edited September 21, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

Rehabbing the RBB and connecting it to the Queens Blvd line isn't be the kind of project that should result in significant multiple service changes across the entire B Division. It isn't necessarily to completely change the and lines in Brooklyn and the in Queens (not to mention rerouting the R to 2nd Ave on nights/weekends) to accommodate an RBB service on Queens Blvd. Any change to existing services should be limited only to those lines that directly connect onto the RBB and - if necessary - the lines on Queens Blvd that operate with that service.

 

In other words, if the R is chosen to go onto the RBB, then only the M should also see changes to its service. Maybe also the F if the MTA doesn't want a 24/7 M, which they might not want. Leave the D, N, W and other lines out of it.

The reason I do that is the is already a long route as it is.  Since the would be starting at Whitehall, it would make more sense to have the serve the RBB 24/7 and to Rockaway Park so it can have its own yard there (as the has both Pitkin and 207) while the and switch in Brooklyn is specifically so the has Coney Island yard as the has Concourse Yard.  As I noted originally, the scenario I would do for this is as follows:

 

becomes 95th-Bay Ridge to 205th Street (express north of 59th Street in Brooklyn)

becomes 24/7 on QB to 71st-Continental, extended Rush Hours to 179th Street.

becomes local in Brooklyn.  Line runs to Astoria weekdays 5:30 AM-10:00 PM and all other times to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement the .

becomes Coney Island via West End to Astoria and also returns to being a 24/7 line. 

as noted would be Whitehall Street to Rockaway Park, replacing the on the QBB and running via the RBB after 63rd Drive.

 

Otherwise, the is probably the best of a group of bad options for the RBB.

[MysteriousBtrain]

An idea struck:

Have the skip stop run all day weekdays, with peak express west of the junction. makes all stops on Broadway. Not sure if it's helpful, but a little thought since I felt that the junction short turns would be a bit confusing (during mainly the rush) even though it does this to get to eny yard.

[LTA1992]

The reason I do that is the is already a long route as it is.  Since the would be starting at Whitehall, it would make more sense to have the serve the RBB 24/7 and to Rockaway Park so it can have its own yard there (as the has both Pitkin and 207) while the and switch in Brooklyn is specifically so the has Coney Island yard as the has Concourse Yard.  As I noted originally, the scenario I would do for this is as follows:

 

becomes 95th-Bay Ridge to 205th Street (express north of 59th Street in Brooklyn)

becomes 24/7 on QB to 71st-Continental, extended Rush Hours to 179th Street.

becomes local in Brooklyn.  Line runs to Astoria weekdays 5:30 AM-10:00 PM and all other times to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement the .

becomes Coney Island via West End to Astoria and also returns to being a 24/7 line. 

as noted would be Whitehall Street to Rockaway Park, replacing the on the QBB and running via the RBB after 63rd Drive.

 

Otherwise, the is probably the best of a group of bad options for the RBB.

No. Sorry but as a daily rider of the and . you'd be slowing down my commute and forcing me to make extra transfers (depending on where I'm going). The currently provides me the quickest route to any part of the city. The only time anything is quicker is when the runs express Manhattan-bound.

Edited September 21, 2015 by LTA1992

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The reason I do that is the is already a long route as it is. Since the would be starting at Whitehall, it would make more sense to have the serve the RBB 24/7 and to Rockaway Park so it can have its own yard there (as the has both Pitkin and 207) while the and switch in Brooklyn is specifically so the has Coney Island yard as the has Concourse Yard. As I noted originally, the scenario I would do for this is as follows:

 

becomes 95th-Bay Ridge to 205th Street (express north of 59th Street in Brooklyn)

becomes 24/7 on QB to 71st-Continental, extended Rush Hours to 179th Street.

becomes local in Brooklyn. Line runs to Astoria weekdays 5:30 AM-10:00 PM and all other times to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement the .

becomes Coney Island via West End to Astoria and also returns to being a 24/7 line.

as noted would be Whitehall Street to Rockaway Park, replacing the on the QBB and running via the RBB after 63rd Drive.

 

Otherwise, the is probably the best of a group of bad options for the RBB.

By switching the D and R in Brooklyn, then running the N local and the D express between 59th and Pacific streets, you'll be creating a big bottleneck at 59th St, because D and N trains will be forced to cross in front of each other to get either to Bay Ridge or the Sea Beach Line. Completely not worth doing.

 

Better to just continue using R for the Queens Blvd/Broadway service even if it no longer stops at 71st and 67th avenues and ends at Whitehall St and to leave the D and N as is. It's less confusing this way.

Edited September 21, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[trainfanrod]

i wonder if the MTA would consider extending the to run all times from eastern pkwy to jamaica cuz the J is the worst other than rush hour and more trains towards queens is needed

[MysteriousBtrain]

i wonder if the MTA would consider extending the to run all times from eastern pkwy to jamaica cuz the J is the worst other than rush hour and more trains towards queens is needed

I noticed a little gap on the uptown between 111 st and Crescent St today. I'd also say something should be done.

Like I said before, maybe the should expand weekday service and the should make peak direction express stops while the makes all stops on Broadway. With my weekday expansion plan, the skip stop service east of the junction would run approximately from 5:30AM to 7:30PM, with service to Manhattan running approximately from 6AM to 6PM. Skip stop service runs in both directions. During the early hours and late hours, trains would begin and end at Broadway Junction respectively and also going/coming to/from Jamaica Center respectively.

Edited September 22, 2015 by MysteriousBtrain

[bobtehpanda]

An idea struck:

Have the skip stop run all day weekdays, with peak express west of the junction. makes all stops on Broadway. Not sure if it's helpful, but a little thought since I felt that the junction short turns would be a bit confusing (during mainly the rush) even though it does this to get to eny yard.

 

The is a service pattern that runs for a very short time every day. The only reason it does this is because there is no express track running the full length (and there really should be one). Unless service on the Jamaica Line is significantly boosted, doing this would just result in increased wait times and upset riders, just like how the skip stop ended up in practice.

[Wallyhorse]

By switching the D and R in Brooklyn, then running the N local and the D express between 59th and Pacific streets, you'll be creating a big bottleneck at 59th St, because D and N trains will be forced to cross in front of each other to get either to Bay Ridge or the Sea Beach Line. Completely not worth doing.

 

Better to just continue using R for the Queens Blvd/Broadway service even if it no longer stops at 71st and 67th avenues and ends at Whitehall St and to leave the D and N as is. It's less confusing this way.

As said, the reasons for the / switch would have to specifically do with yard access and to avoid having the run a very long route of 95th Street-Rockaway Park.  What probably would also need to be done is to have a new set of switches north of 59th Street so trains can come into 59th and switch north OR south of there if you had such a switch.  

 

Another way this could be facilitated:

 

becomes the Rockaway Beach Line, running Chambers Street-Rockaway Park at all times (local on QB, ironically of course, the used to run to Rockaway Park rush hours).

 

runs express on the full route at all times except perhaps late nights.

 

returns to QB and runs as a full-time local to 179 (possibly truncated to Court Square or Queens Plaza late nights).

 

becomes a 24/7 line, an express on QB and is extended all times to 179 (possibly local at least late nights past 71-Continental).  This might force the stations the serves in the Eastern Division to be extended to allow for 600' trains. 

 

also becomes 24/7 and is a full-time local on QB to Jamaica Center (with if necessary limited service to 179).

 

When there is congestion on the local track towards 179, local trains can be switched if needed to the express track north/east of Parsons Boulevard and skip 169 (usually only done when there is another local train directly behind the train being switched).

 

Those who normally take the on QB to Manhattan east/north of 63rd can most likely take the or to West 4th and change there for the .  Those who currently take 6th Avenue service in Manhattan from local stations can switch to the or at varying stops.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[Union Tpke]

As said, the reasons for the / switch would have to specifically do with yard access and to avoid having the run a very long route of 95th Street-Rockaway Park.  What probably would also need to be done is to have a new set of switches north of 59th Street so trains can come into 59th and switch north OR south of there if you had such a switch.  

 

Another way this could be facilitated:

 

becomes the Rockaway Beach Line, running Chambers Street-Rockaway Park at all times (local on QB, ironically of course, the used to run to Rockaway Park rush hours).

 

runs express on the full route at all times except perhaps late nights.

 

returns to QB and runs as a full-time local to 179 (possibly truncated to Court Square or Queens Plaza late nights).

 

becomes a 24/7 line, an express on QB and is extended all times to 179 (possibly local at least late nights past 71-Continental).  This might force the stations the serves in the Eastern Division to be extended to allow for 600' trains. 

 

also becomes 24/7 and is a full-time local on QB to Jamaica Center (with if necessary limited service to 179).

 

When there is congestion on the local track towards 179, local trains can be switched if needed to the express track north/east of Parsons Boulevard and skip 169 (usually only done when there is another local train directly behind the train being switched).

 

Those who normally take the on QB to Manhattan east/north of 63rd can most likely take the or to West 4th and change there for the .  Those who currently take 6th Avenue service in Manhattan from local stations can switch to the or at varying stops.

NO!

[trainfanrod]

THe only way to get  a full time train to RBB line is to get a train that is gonna provide a purpose or it wont have much ridership un;less it travels to amhattan all it gonna do is bring more customers to Jackson heights rosevelt for instance if the G ran there

[Wallyhorse]

THe only way to get  a full time train to RBB line is to get a train that is gonna provide a purpose or it wont have much ridership un;less it travels to amhattan all it gonna do is bring more customers to Jackson heights rosevelt for instance if the G ran there

Right!

 

This has to be a line that goes to Manhattan.  

 

Right now, the as a 24/7 line to Rockaway Park looks to be the best of some seriously bad options as noted before, since:

 

The option I laid out (to avoid the being a real long route) requires the and to switch southern terminals in Brooklyn so the has a yard

 

The option laid out would also mean most likely making the a full-time express line to 179, making the the full-time line to Jamaica Center and the likely also being extended to 179 to compensate for the being only eight cars (at least until stations the in the Eastern Division are lengthened to handle 600' trains, something that needs to be done there anyway).  

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The option is not an option. Do you really think people who board at Jamaica Center and Sutphin/Archer will gladly accept a local train in place of their current express? I hope you don't!

 

You are also suggest leaving the as is and also running the express. That would leave the as the sole local after the Briarwood station where the R splits off. You can't possibly think Hillside riders who board at 169th or Sutphin would be thrilled with having the G with its 4-car trains as their sole service, would you?

Edited September 24, 2015 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

The option is not an option. Do you really think people who board at Jamaica Center and Sutphin/Archer will gladly accept a local train in place of their current express? I hope you don't!

 

You are also suggest leaving the as is and also running the express. That would leave the as the sole local after the Briarwood station where the R splits off. You can't possibly think Hillside riders who board at 169th or Sutphin would be thrilled with having the G with its 4-car trains as their sole service, would you?

We are only talking about two stops where the is the sole local (169 and Sutphin Boulevard).  Anyone at those stations can switch to the expresses within 1-2 stops and you would have two express lines the full route like it used to be.

 

Those looking to switch once in Manhattan for the Lexington line (and a much easier transfer than on the or ) along with those looking for offices along Broadway and 7th Avenue (especially at 49th and Times Square) would be more likely to actually stay on the even if it is a local.  With this setup, I suspect a good number would actually eschew the express, especially if they are specifically looking for 7th Avenue/Times Square and the offices in that area.

 

The being the RBB also makes it the third local from 63rd-Rego Park and points north/west.  It's also the only option right now that goes to Manhattan but does NOT go to Brooklyn after that.  It also gives those in the Rockaways and going to JFK being able to take either the or to Howard Beach and switching there for the AirTrain.  This incarnation of the I suspect would be very popular with workers at JFK in particular.

 

One benefit of this is from Queens Plaza to 63rd Street there would be three locals and the return of the to Queens Boulevard that some do want as well as four lines stopping at Queens Plaza at all times (up from just the in the overnight).  The negatives though are as you noted, however.

 

I was mainly pointing out why the was the best of a group of bad options otherwise (as for instance my option requires a switch of Brooklyn terminals for the and due to yard issues the would have otherwise).   

[Javier]

What do you guys think about this idea?

[Union Tpke]

What do you guys think about this idea?

That is stupid!

Instead extend the 7 to 14th Street with a stop at 23rd Street, and extend the L up 10th Avenue to 72nd Street.

[trainfanrod]

extend the L to 23rd and 7 n transfer

[Wallyhorse]

That is stupid!

Instead extend the 7 to 14th Street with a stop at 23rd Street, and extend the L up 10th Avenue to 72nd Street.

The latter I definitely agree with.  Doing the to 72nd where Broadway and Amsterdam Avenues meet (with provisions to go further uptown in the future) is the way to go.  As I would do that.

 

After 8th Avenue, the line goes in a northeast direction to 10th Avenue, getting there around 20th Street with the line three tracks to allow for a peak-direction express and short turns.  The new stops would be:

 

23rd Street (express)

31st-33rd Street (express)

41st Street (express, transfer to if the 10th/41st station is ever built)

49th-50th Street (local)

58th Street-Roosevelt Hospital (local)

66th Street-Lincoln Center (local)

72nd Street (terminal, transfer to / / with a northern exit at 75th and Amsterdam Avenue)

[LTA1992]

The latter I definitely agree with.  Doing the to 72nd where Broadway and Amsterdam Avenues meet (with provisions to go further uptown in the future) is the way to go.  As I would do that.

 

After 8th Avenue, the line goes in a northeast direction to 10th Avenue, getting there around 20th Street with the line three tracks to allow for a peak-direction express and short turns.  The new stops would be:

 

23rd Street (express)

31st-33rd Street (express)

41st Street (express, transfer to if the 10th/41st station is ever built)

49th-50th Street (local)

58th Street-Roosevelt Hospital (local)

66th Street-Lincoln Center (local)

72nd Street (terminal, transfer to / / with a northern exit at 75th and Amsterdam Avenue)

Or, the 23rd Street station be a three track station to allow half of all services to terminate so more trains can serve the more congested section.

[Union Tpke]

Or, the 23rd Street station be a three track station to allow half of all services to terminate so more trains can serve the more congested section.

or have the 10th Avenue line be FOUR Tracks to allow for a line via 34th an one via 72nd. The 72nd Street Line would go via Northern Blvd in Queens, and the 34th would go via the LIE Trunk Line in Queens.

[Lance]

Psst. Wallyhorse, stop trying to turn the clock back to 1988. There's a reason why the R local/F express service failed. There's also a reason why the original idea of the Queens Blvd locals serving Archer Ave never took off. Riders don't want the local from that far along the line, especially on the busiest stops like Sutphin Blvd/Archer and Jamaica Center. You're setting yourself up for failure with that one. If by some strange set of circumstances occur and the Rockaway Beach line is rebuilt and connected to the Queens Blvd line, here's how I see the service. Either the R serves the line full-time or we return to the G/V weekday/weekend service pattern where the M serves the RBL on weekdays and the G runs down there during the off hours. There's no reason to redesign the entire subway system, nor is there much gained by such a maneuver.