Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[40 to 241st]

13 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

I have a question , what are your thoughts on rerouting  via Williamsburg and   via Brighton?

 

I heard there are theoretical proposals like this, so I would like to know more.

That not advisable to do by sending the  and  through the Williamsburg bridge Bronx folks lose their easy access to Coney Island or Brighton Beach. Maybe if you send one of them to Jamaica (since Bronx to Jamaica demand is crazy) I'm not in for one of them doing what the  would do after Williamsburg.

My question about the is how would it go via Brighton they should finish the second phase before deciding weather if it's the Bronx or Brooklyn. I'd advise the Bronx over Brooklyn that way it could do a better job taking riders from the Lexington Av lines. 

[MTA Researcher]

10 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

Bronx folks lose their easy access to Coney Island or Brighton Beach.

What if the   were going to Co-Op City via 3 Av? 
 

Then could it work?

 

This is a hypothesis.

[MTA Researcher]

10 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

My question about the is how would it go via Brighton

I have heard of proposals where Grand St would be cross platform one for 6 Av one for 2 Av. The tracks leading to the Manhattan Bridge North Side could take 2 Av trains. Of course I don’t fully remember the proposal as it was a while ago…

 

I am wondering if this could be a better alternative for Brighton riders to get 2 Av trains since apparently they hate 6 Av trains… In my ideas I put Broadway Express to handle 4 Av Express.

[Vulturious]

10 hours ago, 40 to 241st said:

On 5/12/2024 at 7:38 PM, MTA Researcher said:

I have a question , what are your thoughts on rerouting  via Williamsburg and   via Brighton?

 

I heard there are theoretical proposals like this, so I would like to know more.

That not advisable to do by sending the  and  through the Williamsburg bridge Bronx folks lose their easy access to Coney Island or Brighton Beach. Maybe if you send one of them to Jamaica (since Bronx to Jamaica demand is crazy) I'm not in for one of them doing what the  would do after Williamsburg.

My question about the is how would it go via Brighton they should finish the second phase before deciding weather if it's the Bronx or Brooklyn. I'd advise the Bronx over Brooklyn that way it could do a better job taking riders from the Lexington Av lines. 

As much as I wouldn't mind sending one of the lines through Williamsburg (preferably not the ), there's the issue of the current state that is the BMT Eastern Division. Even if a new connector is made to allow 6th Av express to run to via the Brooklyn-Broadway, you'd have to completely overhaul the entirety of it which includes the Myrtle Av branch. I'd go as far as to say to include even the  would need an expansion since they'd be pretty left out and with how high of a demand the line already is.

It's already been mentioned and pointed out many times over in this subforum and a couple of others by others about the issue of an expansion for the BMT Eastern Division. Starting off would be the yards themselves, they're already limited on how many trains can be stored at a time, look no further than ENY. Fresh Pond has some possibility to expand, but certainly not ENY. Next up would be the stations, which probably isn't that much of an issue outside of the 2 express stations. I'd mention the structure of the ELs, but I'm not sure if that also needs reconstructing. Though that would be a good time to maybe try out concrete ELs. Then again, I wouldn't know for sure.

[Amiri the subway guy]

Here’s my plan

 Hamilton Grange 145th Street Manhattan - Utica Avenue king plaza Brooklyn 2nd Avenue express/Fulton Street Local New lower 2nd avenue express tracks would be build for this and then they rise up at 55th street and the  they would be extended to a new tunnel in Brooklyn connecting to the  at Hoyt Street and then running to Utica Avenue on a brand new subway line down Utica Avenue. By having the both  run local on Fulton Street you would get decent one seat rides. Note the  would run local in lower manhattan during weekends and late nights when the  and  aren’t running 

 3rd Avenue/2nd Avenue Local Fordham Plaza Bronx -  Hanover Square Manhattan so a new 3rd Avenue line would be built in the Bronx with the existing 2nd Avenue local tracks there the  and  would be extended to Fordham plaza and the  would run local in 2nd Avenue and terminating at lower manhattan. Note the    would be a weekday only  route weekends late nights use  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue Express Williamsburg Local Bayside Bell Boulevard Queens - Bushwick Wilson  Avenue Brooklyn This new line would start off at Northern West queens before becoming express starting at utopia Parkway and then a new tunnel would connect these tracks to the 2nd Avenue express tracks and then Grand Street it would split off to form a new subway line at Williamsburg Northern Brooklyn before heading to Wilson Avenue Bushwick. Note: The  runs local on its entire route during weekends and late nights when the  aren’t running  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue local 

Utopia Parkway queens- Hanover Sqaure  Manhattan 

This re routed subway would start off as the local tracks of the northern Blvd line at utopia parkway with some provisions for a  to be extended via northern Blvd local. The tracks would connect to a new tunnel to the 2nd Avenue local tracks and run down to terminate at lower manhattan Hanover square Note:  doesn’t operate during weekends or late nights use the   

 

 

 

 

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/13/2024 at 9:40 AM, 40 to 241st said:

That not advisable to do by sending the  and  through the Williamsburg bridge Bronx folks lose their easy access to Coney Island or Brighton Beach. Maybe if you send one of them to Jamaica (since Bronx to Jamaica demand is crazy) I'm not in for one of them doing what the  would do after Williamsburg.

My question about the is how would it go via Brighton they should finish the second phase before deciding weather if it's the Bronx or Brooklyn. I'd advise the Bronx over Brooklyn that way it could do a better job taking riders from the Lexington Av lines. 

I have in the past proposed extending the and  to The Bronx, adding an additional stop past Ditmas around 21st Avenue where perhaps a yard could also be built, then going over a new rail bridge to The Bronx, coming in at Food Service Drive.  After that, the line would go back underground with stops that include Elder-Westchester Avenue (transfer to  and East 180th Street (transfer to ).  Such as line as I would do it would likely go to Jacobi Medical Center.  

[MTA Researcher]

22 hours ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

Here’s my plan

 Hamilton Grange 145th Street Manhattan - Utica Avenue king plaza Brooklyn 2nd Avenue express/Fulton Street Local New lower 2nd avenue express tracks would be build for this and then they rise up at 55th street and the  they would be extended to a new tunnel in Brooklyn connecting to the  at Hoyt Street and then running to Utica Avenue on a brand new subway line down Utica Avenue. By having the both  run local on Fulton Street you would get decent one seat rides. Note the  would run local in lower manhattan during weekends and late nights when the  and  aren’t running 

 3rd Avenue/2nd Avenue Local Fordham Plaza Bronx -  Hanover Square Manhattan so a new 3rd Avenue line would be built in the Bronx with the existing 2nd Avenue local tracks there the  and  would be extended to Fordham plaza and the  would run local in 2nd Avenue and terminating at lower manhattan. Note the    would be a weekday only  route weekends late nights use  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue Express Williamsburg Local Bayside Bell Boulevard Queens - Bushwick Wilson  Avenue Brooklyn This new line would start off at Northern West queens before becoming express starting at utopia Parkway and then a new tunnel would connect these tracks to the 2nd Avenue express tracks and then Grand Street it would split off to form a new subway line at Williamsburg Northern Brooklyn before heading to Wilson Avenue Bushwick. Note: The  runs local on its entire route during weekends and late nights when the  aren’t running  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue local 

Utopia Parkway queens- Hanover Sqaure  Manhattan 

This re routed subway would start off as the local tracks of the northern Blvd line at utopia parkway with some provisions for a  to be extended via northern Blvd local. The tracks would connect to a new tunnel to the 2nd Avenue local tracks and run down to terminate at lower manhattan Hanover square Note:  doesn’t operate during weekends or late nights use the   

Not sure how this will work, but one problem I’m seeing is  express and  local on Fulton St?

 

That would count as a merge, thus delaying the trains… It would be best to do  via 8 Av/Fulton St Express and  local in Fulton St OR substitute  for  in being the second8 Av/Fulton St Express thus no need to close 50 St upper level under the latter.

[Amiri the subway guy]

6 minutes ago, MTA Researcher said:

Not sure how this will work, but one problem I’m seeing is  express and  local on Fulton St?

 

That would count as a merge, thus delaying the trains… It would be best to do  via 8 Av/Fulton St Express and  local in Fulton St OR substitute  for  in being the second8 Av/Fulton St Express thus no need to close 50 St upper level under the latter.

True but seeing how Fulton Street was always used to 8th Avenue service and the 2nd Avenue service would basically be foreign to them I felt that having both  run express in Brooklyn would cause huge backlash at the local stations as it’s basically feeling like “forcing thousands to learn a completely new language in commutes with forced transfers unless you could run enough  to make it the negative minimum, but still the question is would people really want to transfer. PS wouldn’t the  to Lefferts Blvd be too long and awkward at it’s another loop into queens?
 

Initially the 3rd Avenue line I proposed in the Bronx was going be 4 tracks with the  being express on weekdays but local on weekends and late nights. And the  being the weekday only local that doesn’t operate during overnight hours and weekends. But I staled back to it being 3 tracks with the middle track reserved for either emergencies or potential peak way express service. 
 

Git any feedback for the other parts of my proposals any recommendations?

[MTA Researcher]

Here’s an experimental map I made a while ago. 
 

https://metrodreamin.com/view/QWp5WDJMaE9oYldYaHhNbGV0Vzh4c3pzWDBkMnww

 

KeyHighlights:

knowing  and QBL as a crowd chaos show I extended  to Flushing via Astoria Express passing through LGA. If the  line is disrupted; you may take  as alternative. Astoria Local would be served by 2 Av Local (I) train running between Citi Field and Hanover Square.

 

i also eliminated the  to eliminate the merge at 59 St CC. Now replaced with  in Bronx and  going into 6 Av and beyond.
 

I also converted  to 8 Av Local and rerouted to terminate at 168 St.

 

The  extended to Co-Op City

 

  via 8 Av/Fulton St Express to Far Rockaway.

 

 returns to 53 St.

[MTA Researcher]

14 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

PS wouldn’t the  to Lefferts Blvd be too long and awkward at it’s another loop into queens?

Based on MetroDreamin it would only be 1 hour and 12 minutes long. Because it’s going express on all 3 boroughs.

[40 to 241st]

11 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I have in the past proposed extending the and  to The Bronx, adding an additional stop past Ditmas around 21st Avenue where perhaps a yard could also be built, then going over a new rail bridge to The Bronx, coming in at Food Service Drive.  After that, the line would go back underground with stops that include Elder-Westchester Avenue (transfer to  and East 180th Street (transfer to ).  Such as line as I would do it would likely go to Jacobi Medical Center.  

This sound looks like a good idea as this gives Bronx folks better access to LaGuardia, but what other stops would you propose? If it’s going to the Jacobi medical center 🏥 and serves 180th would you have your   and follow the . 

[Amiri the subway guy]

On 5/13/2024 at 9:47 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

Here’s my plan

 Hamilton Grange 145th Street Manhattan - Utica Avenue king plaza Brooklyn 2nd Avenue express/Fulton Street Local New lower 2nd avenue express tracks would be build for this and then they rise up at 55th street and the  they would be extended to a new tunnel in Brooklyn connecting to the  at Hoyt Street and then running to Utica Avenue on a brand new subway line down Utica Avenue. By having the both  run local on Fulton Street you would get decent one seat rides. Note the  would run local in lower manhattan during weekends and late nights when the  and  aren’t running 

 3rd Avenue/2nd Avenue Local Fordham Plaza Bronx -  Hanover Square Manhattan so a new 3rd Avenue line would be built in the Bronx with the existing 2nd Avenue local tracks there the  and  would be extended to Fordham plaza and the  would run local in 2nd Avenue and terminating at lower manhattan. Note the    would be a weekday only  route weekends late nights use  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue Express Williamsburg Local Bayside Bell Boulevard Queens - Bushwick Wilson  Avenue Brooklyn This new line would start off at Northern West queens before becoming express starting at utopia Parkway and then a new tunnel would connect these tracks to the 2nd Avenue express tracks and then Grand Street it would split off to form a new subway line at Williamsburg Northern Brooklyn before heading to Wilson Avenue Bushwick. Note: The  runs local on its entire route during weekends and late nights when the  aren’t running  

 

 Northern Blvd/2nd Avenue local 

Utopia Parkway queens- Hanover Sqaure  Manhattan 

This re routed subway would start off as the local tracks of the northern Blvd line at utopia parkway with some provisions for a  to be extended via northern Blvd local. The tracks would connect to a new tunnel to the 2nd Avenue local tracks and run down to terminate at lower manhattan Hanover square Note:  doesn’t operate during weekends or late nights use the   

 

 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

Not sure how this will work, but one problem I’m seeing is  express and  local on Fulton St?

 

That would count as a merge, thus delaying the trains… It would be best to do  via 8 Av/Fulton St Express and  local in Fulton St OR substitute  for  in being the second8 Av/Fulton St Express thus no need to close 50 St upper level under the latter.

Allow me to explain these proposals. By expanding the proposed 125th street crosstown line to go up to further north Harlem at 145th Street would add in a corridor and connection to East Manhattan it would also feature a transfer to the  at 137th Street city college. 
Next seeing how Fulton Street was always used to 8th Avenue service, I feel it’s best for both the  to run local on Fulton Street to minimize backlash and allow for improved timing on the local stations. Then the  goes to Utica Avenue to fill in the gap of the lack of transit.  Next for 3rd Avenue line, I wanted this to be a 4 track line but seeing how that would be too expensive to build 3 tracks line served by the  (note  is 2nd Avenue local) would be the better alternative giving central Bronx the long overdue replacement for the demolished 3rd avenue el.  Now the primary goal of the Northern Blvd line  (Both 2nd Avenue services) in queens is to not just help build a subway to better manage the growth in Northern western Queens to help reduce crowding on the    line. This route would run at a close proximity to the current flushing line, that way the two 2nd Avenue services could serve as crowd control for not just flushing but at Grand Central Station. For Williamburg northern Brooklyn I figured sending the  down to Bushwick Wilson Avenue would help better balance the loads of traffic on the  and  and give riders a new option to the east side via 2nd avenue.  Lastly the reason why the  are weekday only routes and only terminate at lower Manhattan is because I figured that ridership will be lower on weekends and late nights then weekdays so the two extra services probably won’t be needed and they isn’t anywhere left in Brooklyn that I see necessary for them to go. 

[MTA Researcher]

All right, it’s time to settle this debate once and for all…  which is more densely populated, Astoria and QBL together or 2 Av?

 

As I watch Tech Transit Association YT channel it keeps coming back to TPH , capacity and fundings. 

How many TPH would  alone to Astoria via Broadway Express get?

 

How many TPH would  to 71 Av or Rockaway Park via RBB going Broadway Express get?

 

How many TPH   Broadway Local can get  to 2 Av?

 

Please Note this is under 57/7 flip, meaning that Express tracks connect to 60 St while Local tracks via provisions north ascend and connect to 63 St.

 

Lastly How possible is this?

How much would this cost?

[MTA Researcher]

Here’s an experimental deinterlining plan:

 

 Days: 207 - Lefferts: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Express

Nights: Rockaway Blvd - Lefferts

 Weekdays: Co-Op City - Far Rockaway: Concourse/CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Express

Weekends and Nights: No Concourse Express

 All Times: 179 - CI: QBL Express - 8 Av Local vía W 4 Switch to Culver Express

 Rush Hours: Peak Direction Express to Kings Highway

 All Times: Jamaica Ctr - 2 Av: QBL Express - 8 Av Local vía W 4 Switch to Terminus

 Days: 168 - CI: CPW Local - 6 Av/4 Av Express via West End

Nights: Extended to 207

 Weekdays: BPB to CI: Concourse/CPW Local - 6 Av/4 Av Express via Sea Beach

Weekends and Nights: Cut back to 145 St

 All Times: 71 Av - WTC: QBL/ 6 Av Local via 63 St and W 4 switch to Terminus

 All Times: Jamaica Ctr - Chambers St: All Local

  Weekdays: Express between Marcy Av and Broadway Jct

 All Times: Metro Av - Bay Ridge - 95 St: All Local

 All Times: Astoria-Ditmars - CI: Astoria/Brighton Local - Broadway Express

 Weekdays: Astoria/Brighton Express

 All Times: 125 - Euclid Av: Broadway/Fulton St Local via Montague St to new connection to local tracks at Hoyt-Schimmerhorn Sts

 New Harlem Shuttle

 Rerouted to Dyre Av and Flatbush Av

 extended to New Lots Av

  Jerome Av Express

Please Note: Night  must terminate at Rockaway Blvd to allow  to go Fulton St Express

About QBL… 36 St would have to be Express Station

Also regarding Broadway 57/7 Flip is in effect, thus no 3 borough locals which are long and useless.

The brown  must return because we are talking complete deinterlining thus no reverse branching. 

 The shuttle in Harlem will take over the  in Harlem, so  may go to Dyre Av.

 

Hopefully this is more feasible and reasonable.

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:23 PM, Wallyhorse said:

I have in the past proposed extending the and  to The Bronx, adding an additional stop past Ditmas around 21st Avenue where perhaps a yard could also be built, then going over a new rail bridge to The Bronx, coming in at Food Service Drive.  After that, the line would go back underground with stops that include Elder-Westchester Avenue (transfer to  and East 180th Street (transfer to ).  Such as line as I would do it would likely go to Jacobi Medical Center.  

Had to go through Google Maps as I did originally when I looked into the other stops"

20th Avenue in Queens with potentially a yard would be put in at this point. 

The line then goes over a new rail bridge to The Bronx with actually two stops next to Food Center Drive on Hallack Street, the first above ground at Ryawa Avenue and the second underground near Hunts Point Avenue, then continuing on Hallack Steet to Seneca Avenue (next stop) and then turning and going under the Bronx River to Bronx River Avenue and the Bruckner Expressway (with exits at such a station on both sides of the expressway), then north to Watson Avenue and then west to Elder Avenue with a stop at Elder and Westchester Avenue (transfer to ), then north-northwest on Elder to where it meets with Bronx River Avenue and on there to a stop at East 174th Street, then  continuing to and then under the Cross Bronx Expressway to East 177th Street to Bronx Park Avenue, then along there to East 180th Street (transfer to  and ), then on Morris Park Avenue to a stop at White Plains Road, then on White Plains Road to Pelham Parkway (second transfer to ),  then across Pelham Parkway with a stop at Willamsbridge Road and a final stop at on Pelham Parkway South and Jacobi Medical Center.  

[Robert Spire]

Here is a random proposal I have to bring back the  train.

 same as now

 express between 241 Street and Flatbush at all times including late nights

 same daytime pattern as now but with no late nights

 late night only between 148 Street and South Ferry running local 

 

This would provide full late night service all the way downtown as the  only goes to 42 Street and this would help out the  late nights

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, Robert Spire said:

Here is a random proposal I have to bring back the  train.

 same as now

 express between 241 Street and Flatbush at all times including late nights

 same daytime pattern as now but with no late nights

 late night only between 148 Street and South Ferry running local 

 

This would provide full late night service all the way downtown as the  only goes to 42 Street and this would help out the  late nights

Or just run the  late nights to South Ferry via Local and keep the  as an express 

[Robert Spire]

4 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Or just run the  late nights to South Ferry via Local and keep the  as an express 

That would be a different terminal. At least we could have an easy customer identification. 

[Amiri the subway guy]

6 hours ago, Robert Spire said:

Here is a random proposal I have to bring back the  train.

 same as now

 express between 241 Street and Flatbush at all times including late nights

 same daytime pattern as now but with no late nights

 late night only between 148 Street and South Ferry running local 

 

This would provide full late night service all the way downtown as the  only goes to 42 Street and this would help out the  late nights

I like the idea except for the  part brining the  back as basically a “late night exclusive clone” of the  is pointless, confusing, over complicated and unnecessary just extend and reroute the  to South Ferry via 7th Avenue local and reroute to the  to 7th Avenue express and call it a day 

Edited May 23 by Amiri the subway guy

[Robert Spire]

40 minutes ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

I like the idea except for the  part brining the  back as basically a “late night exclusive clone” of the  is pointless, confusing, over complicated and unnecessary just extend and reroute the  to South Ferry via 7th Avenue local and reroute to the  to 7th Avenue express and call it a day 

It is not a clone because it doesn't go to Brooklyn and is not express. Either way the  late nights are a mess, I have seen rush hour style crowding at 4 am. 

[Trainmaster5]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:03 AM, Robert Spire said:

Here is a random proposal I have to bring back the  train.

 same as now

 express between 241 Street and Flatbush at all times including late nights

 same daytime pattern as now but with no late nights

 late night only between 148 Street and South Ferry running local 

 

This would provide full late night service all the way downtown as the  only goes to 42 Street and this would help out the  late nights

Let me try to steer you and the others in the right direction. Late night  express in Manhattan ? Been there done that years ago. The public rightfully complained about this service pattern. Imagine waiting at 28th Street at 2: AM and you’re heading home to Winthrop Street or Burke Avenue and the  whizzed by you. Now you have to wait for a  train to get to an express station and then wait for your train home. The solution was to have the  make local stops in Manhattan and give the people a one seat ride home instead. Look no further than the East Side counterpart the  which made all local stops in Manhattan. Finally they extended the  service from its old midnight terminal at 125th Street down to Brooklyn Bridge. Most of the posters are unaware of the old service patterns but I can personally attest to some of them because I worked some of those jobs.

Sunday nights we ran  trains from New Lots to White Plains Road with FIVE cars. Express in Manhattan.

The  ran FIVE car trains on the midnight tour from VCP down to the ferry and back. I’ve witnessed the frustration of the people who were at the local stations and trying to get home.

As for a midnight  going anywhere south of Times Square that’s a non starter in my opinion. I worked the  shuttle from Lenox to 135th Street and I’ve worked Lenox when there was no service on the midnight tour. We survived. My opinion. Carry on. BTW this was discussed in the forum 15 years ago and most people agreed with the present service patterns.

[Wallyhorse]

7 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me try to steer you and the others in the right direction. Late night  express in Manhattan ? Been there done that years ago. The public rightfully complained about this service pattern. Imagine waiting at 28th Street at 2: AM and you’re heading home to Winthrop Street or Burke Avenue and the  whizzed by you. Now you have to wait for a  train to get to an express station and then wait for your train home. The solution was to have the  make local stops in Manhattan and give the people a one seat ride home instead. Look no further than the East Side counterpart the  which made all local stops in Manhattan. Finally they extended the  service from its old midnight terminal at 125th Street down to Brooklyn Bridge. Most of the posters are unaware of the old service patterns but I can personally attest to some of them because I worked some of those jobs.

Sunday nights we ran  trains from New Lots to White Plains Road with FIVE cars. Express in Manhattan.

The  ran FIVE car trains on the midnight tour from VCP down to the ferry and back. I’ve witnessed the frustration of the people who were at the local stations and trying to get home.

As for a midnight  going anywhere south of Times Square that’s a non starter in my opinion. I worked the  shuttle from Lenox to 135th Street and I’ve worked Lenox when there was no service on the midnight tour. We survived. My opinion. Carry on. BTW this was discussed in the forum 15 years ago and most people agreed with the present service patterns.

Exactly!

There's a reason the  and on the 7th Avenue Line are both local late nights while the  and  do the same on the Lexington Line.  The one thing I would differently with regards to these when the  is not running also have the  go to Bowling Green so there are trains to/from there to/from the SI Ferry every 10 minutes or so in late night hours.  

I would also have the  run express to Grand Central in late night hours much like the  does to Times Square.  

[Amiri the subway guy]

Any opinions on my 2nd Avenue plan?

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Exactly!

There's a reason the  and on the 7th Avenue Line are both local late nights while the  and  do the same on the Lexington Line.  The one thing I would differently with regards to these when the  is not running also have the  go to Bowling Green so there are trains to/from there to/from the SI Ferry every 10 minutes or so in late night hours.  

I would also have the  run express to Grand Central in late night hours much like the  does to Times Square.  

I’m not sure about your move at Grand Central with the  . IIRC the only connection is from the downtown express and wrong railing onto the uptown express track. That would mean the riders headed for points south would have to de train and cross over to the downtown tracks. I could be mistaken but I’ve only made that move with a road train. Carry on.

[Robert Spire]

12 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Exactly!

There's a reason the  and on the 7th Avenue Line are both local late nights while the  and  do the same on the Lexington Line.  The one thing I would differently with regards to these when the  is not running also have the  go to Bowling Green so there are trains to/from there to/from the SI Ferry every 10 minutes or so in late night hours.  

I would also have the  run express to Grand Central in late night hours much like the  does to Times Square.  

There are reliability problems with the  late nights. There's people that take the  into Queens for the Q44 instead late nights.