City in talks with MTA to roll back commuter prices on Metro-North, LIRR

[Via Garibaldi 8]

City in talks with MTA to roll back commuter prices on Metro-North, LIRR: officials

 

BY DAN RIVOLI

 

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

 

Updated: Thursday, November 12, 2015, 2:15 PM

           

ANTHONY DELMUNDO/NEW YORK DAILY NEWS The city is in talks with the MTA to lower fare prices for commuters who use the Metro-North Railroad.

   

City commuters who use Metro-North and the Long Island Rail Road may be in for a fare break.

The city and Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials are in talks to roll back prices for commuters who use the rail lines within the five boroughs, Transportation Commissioner Polly Trottenberg told the City Council Thursday.

Lawmakers in the outer boroughs have long been pressing the transit agency to make the commuter rail an affordable option for New Yorkers in the far reaches of the city.

 

Riders might also be able to get free transfers to subway and bus from the commuter rails, lawmakers said.

 

“These actions will reduce commuter times to top business districts throughout the city by up to 7.5 hours a week,” said Councilman I. Daneek Miller (D-Queens).

 

“You cannot quantify the value of getting back five to ten hours per person, to their families, to their communities and to the city,” Miller said.

 

BARRY WILLIAMS/FOR NEW YORK DAILY NEWS City Council member I. Daneek Miller (D-Queens) supports working towards an affordable option for New Yorkers in the far reaches of the city.

 

 

JOHN ROCA/FOR NEW YORK DAILY NEWS (BY JOHN Long Island Rail Road commuters may also be getting a fare break.

 

But the MTA has balked at the cost, which would drain $70 million a year from the agency’s revenues.

The two railroads make more than 14 million trips a year within the city limits, according to MTA officials.

 

“To remain financially whole, MTA would need to be reimbursed for these discounts,” MTA Chairman Tom Prendergast wrote in a letter to the City Council transportation committee chairman, Ydanis Rodriguez.

 

The MTA’s discussions on the commuter lines with the city are part of talks over fare hike in 2017 for the city’s subway and bus riders.

 

The MTA needs to generate 4% more revenue from fares and tolls, officials said.

Currently, the MTA offers New Yorkers a discounted $4.25 one-way ticket to travel on the commuter rails between Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens on weekends.

 

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-mta-talks-cut-metro-north-lirr-prices-article-1.2432694

[paulrivera]

Free transfers to the subway and bus is a bit much but having a lower fare on the weekends would encourage people in certain areas to get off the subway with all its track work or the express bus with all their detours, which almost never takes a weekend off. There's no need to lower the weekday fare however, these railroads are overburdened enough during the week.

 

Seeing this is the city's idea, the city should pay for it and not a dime from this proposal should come from the MTA imo.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Free transfers to the subway and bus is a bit much but having a lower fare on the weekends would encourage people in certain areas to get off the subway with all its track work or the express bus with all their detours, which almost never takes a weekend off. There's no need to lower the weekday fare however, these railroads are overburdened enough during the week.

 

Seeing this is the city's idea, the city should pay for it and not a dime from this proposal should come from the MTA imo.

I don't see the need to lower the fares because you have City Ticket on weekends, which I use at times to and from certain areas.  I was tutoring in the South Bronx yesterday and used the MNRR.  The Yankees-East 153rd street station and that Melrose station both see light usage on weekends from the residents there despite having the $4.25 City Ticket, so I'm not sure how much they want to lower the fare, but I don't support it being lowered too much because it would create too much overcrowding, not to mention that those are commuter trains and NOT subways.  They are not designed to handle those types of crowds, and furthermore, they have limited capacity as it is with record ridership on both the LIRR and MNRR.  They can roll back the fare, but no free transfer.  Besides, if the people in those areas can't afford the local bus fare and don't pay, what makes them think they can afford a reduce fare?  That's the whole point of paying the higher fare is so that you have a faster commute, otherwise you use the subway or the local bus.

[Missabassie]

Its a fanciful idea, but LIRR/MNR were not designed for what they've got in mind. The fare structure between Commuter Train - Subway - Bus is at this time a barrier. This is not Tokyo. "Blurring the lines" if you will, is going to take many years and billions of dollars.

[Truckie]

I'll believe it when I see it. As has already been mentioned there is currently a discount inter-boro on weekends contingent it's used the same day it's purchased.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'll believe it when I see it. As has already been mentioned there is currently a discount inter-boro on weekends contingent it's used the same day it's purchased.

The other issue is even if they do get fares reduced significantly and add a transfer, how is the going to deal with the capacity issues?  Let's face it, those trains are quite crowded already (even on weekends).  The Hudson Line has some capacity overall, but I've been on plenty of Harlem trains that were SRO on weekends.  I'm actually annoyed by what the city is trying to do because they're looking for a cheap solution instead of investing in the subway system.  The MNRR and LIRR are NOT subways, nor should they be treated as such.  The other issue is the quality of the ride.  There's already enough people standing as it is and the trains are already dirty enough, so you add more people on those crowded trains, and I think it adds up to wayyy more than just $70 million. What about the extra cleaners needed to keep those trains looking half decent? You'd also have more foot traffic requiring the stations to be cleaned more often.

[Around the Horn]

Okay,I'm fine with this as a stop gap measure until we can get the backlog of old subway cars outta here,most of the renovations done and then the MTA can focus on extending the network (I'm talking about you and ).

 

Lack of subway service is an issue in Southeast Queens and parts of the Bronx.The LIRR and MNR have always been there but have never reached the peak ridership out the because of two factors:cost and frequency. Subway extensions solve this problem but can't be completed tomorrow (or else SEPTA's subway service would triple in its coverage but that's neither here nor there...)

 

However if they seriously expect to lower fares in the city while the same stupid lack-of-frequencies run out to Long Island I've got a bridge to sell you...

[bobtehpanda]

The other issue is even if they do get fares reduced significantly and add a transfer, how is the going to deal with the capacity issues?  Let's face it, those trains are quite crowded already (even on weekends).  The Hudson Line has some capacity overall, but I've been on plenty of Harlem trains that were SRO on weekends.  I'm actually annoyed by what the city is trying to do because they're looking for a cheap solution instead of investing in the subway system.  The MNRR and LIRR are NOT subways, nor should they be treated as such.  The other issue is the quality of the ride.  There's already enough people standing as it is and the trains are already dirty enough, so you add more people on those crowded trains, and I think it adds up to wayyy more than just $70 million. What about the extra cleaners needed to keep those trains looking half decent? You'd also have more foot traffic requiring the stations to be cleaned more often.

 

The LIRR has a place to turn trains on the Main Line once East Side Access is complete; Belmont Park could be used to short turn trains coming from Atlantic Terminal and Penn Station, and the Port Washington Line is basically a subway the way it runs.

[DetSMART45]

Lower the fares today, but what about when "tomorrow" comes and MNRR/LIRR starts looking (and performing) like the subway and the only way floated to fix the situation is to raise the fares?

 

The stop-gap "fixes" never work and end up costing more in the long run.

 

And, really, for what they're talking about to work properly, it'd be best to get touchless/Ventra/Oyster up and running.  Then you could build-in transfers to subway/bus and if restrictions need to be in place, they can be added.  Plus zones would be better enforced by touch-in/touch-out with daily caps, which would be an added benefit to riders.

 

If the city wants this, let them subsidize it.  Non-NYC residents should not have to pay for the city's/MTA's transit deficiencies and inadequacies.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay,I'm fine with this as a stop gap measure until we can get the backlog of old subway cars outta here,most of the renovations done and then the MTA can focus on extending the network (I'm talking about you and ).

 

Lack of subway service is an issue in Southeast Queens and parts of the Bronx.The LIRR and MNR have always been there but have never reached the peak ridership out the because of two factors:cost and frequency. Subway extensions solve this problem but can't be completed tomorrow (or else SEPTA's subway service would triple in its coverage but that's neither here nor there...)

 

However if they seriously expect to lower fares in the city while the same stupid lack-of-frequencies run out to Long Island I've got a bridge to sell you...

What peak ridership are you referring to?  Ridership on both the MNRR and LIRR are already at all-time highs, and Truckie has pointed in previous threads that MNRR barely has enough trains around to make service as it is.  The peak trains are already crowded enough, and plenty of off-peak trains are crowded too, so the question is where do they get more trains from to meet demand?  It's clear that the city wants prices to be affordable for large amounts of people, and if that's the case, then there has to be service increases to meet that demand.

 

The LIRR has a place to turn trains on the Main Line once East Side Access is complete; Belmont Park could be used to short turn trains coming from Atlantic Terminal and Penn Station, and the Port Washington Line is basically a subway the way it runs.

Forget about turning trains.  It's been noted that there aren't enough trains as it is to maintain service, so where are they supposed to get more trains from to deal with the increase in ridership?

[BreeddekalbL]

didn't the TA just say hell no to this?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

didn't the TA just say hell no to this?

No, if the City gives them money, they may likely implement some of the things listed in the article.

[Around the Horn]

What peak ridership are you referring to?  Ridership on both the MNRR and LIRR are already at all-time highs, and Truckie has pointed in previous threads that MNRR barely has enough trains around to make service as it is.  The peak trains are already crowded enough, and plenty of off-peak trains are crowded too, so the question is where do they get more trains from to meet demand?  It's clear that the city wants prices to be affordable for large amounts of people, and if that's the case, then there has to be service increases to meet that demand.

 

Forget about turning trains.  It's been noted that there aren't enough trains as it is to maintain service, so where are they supposed to get more trains from to deal with the increase in ridership?

I was referring to ridership within the city.

Without a doubt, more people would ride it to/from areas without subways if it wasn't so damn expensive...I would...

 

And I agree with you about the need for service increases especially out on Long Island (Main Line anyone?)

 

However if they seriously expect to lower fares in the city while the same stupid lack-of-frequencies run out to Long Island I've got a bridge to sell you...

[Around the Horn]

Lower the fares today, but what about when "tomorrow" comes and MNRR/LIRR starts looking (and performing) like the subway and the only way floated to fix the situation is to raise the fares?

 

The stop-gap "fixes" never work and end up costing more in the long run.

 

And, really, for what they're talking about to work properly, it'd be best to get touchless/Ventra/Oyster up and running.  Then you could build-in transfers to subway/bus and if restrictions need to be in place, they can be added.  Plus zones would be better enforced by touch-in/touch-out with daily caps, which would be an added benefit to riders.

 

If the city wants this, let them subsidize it.  Non-NYC residents should not have to pay for the city's/MTA's transit deficiencies and inadequacies.

That's if the unions will let them.

LIRR conductor's unions have already delayed the mobile ticketing app by almost a year...

[NY1635]

Where is the MTA supposed to find the money to support the reduced fare on MNRR and LIRR? Wouldn't the City have to fork over some cash in order to keep the prices low?

[DetSMART45]

That's if the unions will let them.

LIRR conductor's unions have already delayed the mobile ticketing app by almost a year...

Who's running the place?  Don't make me dredge up the OFFICIAL charter of the MTA -- doesn't mention anything about Unions running the way things are supposed to go.  "Public benefit corporation" doesn't have anything to do with the workforce calling the shots.  That's something everyone within the NYC region should be up in arms about.

 

An "app".  That sounds just like the MTA.  Kinda like after all the bucketloads of cash they get their hands on and yet subway train destination signs are stored/loaded by FLOPPY DISKS.  Government efficiency at its finest.  The 2nd largest transit system can get touchless up ........ yet the MTA can't and they can't even get annunciators paid for on their buses.

 

Yeah .... transit use looks like it's going to be skyrocketing with 1980s technology leading the way.  And the answer: "Deal with it."

 

Where is the MTA supposed to find the money to support the reduced fare on MNRR and LIRR? Wouldn't the City have to fork over some cash in order to keep the prices low?

Exactly.  But in the "fairness" doctrines followed by DeBlasio et al, the city/state/MTA pretty much skate out from under such fairness, and the VAST majority of riders of MNRR/LIRR who live OUTSIDE city borders should "subsidize" the city because of their own shortcomings/inefficiencies/pure boneheadedness.  The subway is inefficient, so let's have commuter rail pick up the slack, because we've never addressed things all these years.  Look at the LIRR/MNRR lines of the Capital budget -- hardly anything compared to "investment" the the city core.  Yet those suburban services seem to be the ones that are judged as operating "unfair."

[aemoreira81]

If it actually comes to fruition, it could eliminate the need to run some express bus routes that are not on Staten Island, especially in Queens. The way to sell this to the MTA would be as that...you lower the fare, you save money by not having to run as many OTR coaches where there isn't rider turnover. Obviously they will still be needed in some areas, but they could be cut from some areas. The QM21, X63 and X64 are examples where the train could replace the express bus. This plan could also mean the end of the QM3. That would result in about 30-35 fewer express buses being needed.

 

It is also appropriate to ask if people who take express buses take no other mode of transit currently. At least some may be amenable to a rail alternative, which could result in more savings, especially when the merger is finally completed in 2020 and mean that fewer express buses will have to be bought to replace the MTA Bus MCIs. After all, they would not have to deal with traffic in Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If it actually comes to fruition, it could eliminate the need to run some express bus routes that are not on Staten Island, especially in Queens. The way to sell this to the MTA would be as that...you lower the fare, you save money by not having to run as many OTR coaches where there isn't rider turnover. Obviously they will still be needed in some areas, but they could be cut from some areas. The QM21, X63 and X64 are examples where the train could replace the express bus. This plan could also mean the end of the QM3. That would result in about 30-35 fewer express buses being needed.

 

It is also appropriate to ask if people who take express buses take no other mode of transit currently. At least some may be amenable to a rail alternative, which could result in more savings, especially when the merger is finally completed in 2020 and mean that fewer express buses will have to be bought to replace the MTA Bus MCIs. After all, they would not have to deal with traffic in Manhattan.

I would imagine some communities arguing that rail service would force them to have to make extra transfers whereas the express bus is just one bus for many commuters and far more convenient.  It's precisely why some areas with MNRR or LIRR service for example still do very well with the express bus.  A one seat ride is much better than having to transfer several times, even if that means spending a little more time in traffic.  It's not all about traffic.  There are some commuters that CARE about their commute and want comfort.  It may seem mind boggling, but that's why you have different tiers of service for different types of commuters. They don't all fit the same mold.

[Around the Horn]

Who's running the place?  Don't make me dredge up the OFFICIAL charter of the MTA -- doesn't mention anything about Unions running the way things are supposed to go.  "Public benefit corporation" doesn't have anything to do with the workforce calling the shots.  That's something everyone within the NYC region should be up in arms about.

Believe me I don't like it either...

 

An "app".  That sounds just like the MTA. 

In fairness,most of the commuter rails in this country have some sort of mobile ticketing app.This does not preclude them from the New fare payment system which is happening and is also delayed...(Sign up for the LIRR Today email newsletter if your interested in looking over the details...)

 

An "app".  That sounds just like the MTA.  Kinda like after all the bucketloads of cash they get their hands on and yet subway train destination signs are stored/loaded by FLOPPY DISKS.  Government efficiency at its finest.  The 2nd largest transit system can get touchless up ........ yet the MTA can't and they can't even get annunciators paid for on their buses.

Floppy disks?Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure that at the very least the R143/160 use USBs, not sure about the R142/142As...The problem cited with them is the hard drive on the trains being too small,never heard about floppy disks...

 

The computers for the 142s are likely from 2000, hence their lack of disc space. Of course, with portable 1TB HDs under $100, it still isn't an excuse.

 

Also annunciators are coming in this capital program, they wanted BusTime done first...

[bobtehpanda]

In fairness,most of the commuter rails in this country have some sort of mobile ticketing app.This does not preclude them from the New fare payment system which is happening and is also delayed...(Sign up for the LIRR Today email newsletter if your interested in looking over the details...)

 

Isn't that website defunct? There's still a newsletter?

[N6 Limited]

Believe me I don't like it either...

 

In fairness,most of the commuter rails in this country have some sort of mobile ticketing app.This does not preclude them from the New fare payment system which is happening and is also delayed...(Sign up for the LIRR Today email newsletter if your interested in looking over the details...)

 

Floppy disks?Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure that at the very least the R143/160 use USBs, not sure about the R142/142As...The problem cited with them is the hard drive on the trains being too small,never heard about floppy disks...

 

Also annunciators are coming in this capital program, they wanted BusTime done first...

 

Even NICE Bus has mobile ticketing

 

I'd say that BusTime was more of a priority than annunciators, good call on them.

[Around the Horn]

Isn't that website defunct? There's still a newsletter?

Yeah he emails a PDF every other week...

The website isn't defunct its just not working properly...

 

I’m having some trouble with getting people access to the archived version of the website, Google apparently has some arbitrary limit to how many people can have accessed to the archived version of the site, and I’ve apparently reached it somehow, so I’m trying to figure out a way to work around it.  I’ll let you know when I can get that taken care of.

 

This link should work to signup for the email newsletter...

http://lists.thelirrtoday.com/

[Union Tpke]

Isn't that website defunct? There's still a newsletter?

nope there is still a newsletter. I just messaged lirr42 on here, and he gave me an invitation.

[DetSMART45]

Just for the record .....

 

Was going by a post in Subway forum on the floppy disk comment.

 

But judging by the way things are, would it really be something too hard to imagine?  After all, President "O" has been OFFICIALLY photographed with a computer running an XP screensaver.  What's to say MTA isn't really using old tech to run things?  If the White House is OK with it, then .......