bobtehpanda Posted April 2, 2016 Share #26 Posted April 2, 2016 Once again I don't think this type of thinking sustainable. Let's let history serve as a guide connectivity is everything The only reason we're talking about the New York City subways because somebody decided to build here based on connectivity to the old world. This country is what it is today and was able to expand because the connectivity from shipping down the Mississippi to the railroads connecting east to west. So with that as a foundation it's really hard for me to understand the monotonous thinking. Millions of people cross these imaginary lines daily when I'm driving on the parkway or interstate when I cross the city limits I expect everything to be seamless i'm not saying to myself oh well Yonkers should be handling this part of the road I just want to get from A to B how do we move forward with everybody Saying what they can't do based on the rules and the mess that their predecessors put in place.Every once in a while someone comes along and rethinks how it could be done that's the only way we get progress. The point is just better interoperability between the agencies towns and counties what's so hard about that. If I'm missing something let me know besides the funding points. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Money comes from somewhere. The City gets expansions because the City pays for part of it. The Long Islanders get ESA because they pay for part of it. The money can be obtained directly from municipal/county budgets or from the state by legislators lobbying for money. The point is that projects happen because people put money where their mouths are. Westchester is by no means a poor county; nor is Nassau, or Hudson, or Bergen counties. If they really wanted more extensions, they could definitely pay for it or lobby for money from the state, but they don't put in the necessary legwork either because they don't want to or they can't be bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted April 2, 2016 Share #27 Posted April 2, 2016 Let's not pretend the areas outside of New York City are the transit deserts you're making them out to be. You've got Metro-North serving almost every town in the northern suburbs and the LIRR for better or worse out in Long Island. In Westchester, there is the Bee-Line bus network serving a large portion of the county. Things aren't perfect up here either, but the day I see NYC expanding subway service up here is the day I hit Lotto, Mega Millions and PowerBall all at the same time and then get struck by lightning. Besides, where in the hell would you build a subway up here anyhow? Better question, how would you connect it to the existing network in NYC? Not saying it's a desert at all i'm not saying I fully disagree once again. Every transportation option within the metropolitan area has seen substantial growth we see the numbers. Not talking about expanding subway service anywhere I'm talking about better intraoperative options with what we have. Metro north and both LIRR have seen record growth over the last decade. The existing subway and commuter rail can work better together that's all I'm saying. My other point in my previous post with seeing both the city and the outer suburbs as one region people may take the metro into the city from the suburbs but they still need that last mile option to get to the office or place of employment. LIRR&MetroNorth +Subway = my point. What do you call the guys that love the subway foamers? Trust me I'm not taking that standpoint. All I asked is if we should be looking at the city and the surrounding suburbs one? Transportation wise? Nothing more nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted April 2, 2016 Share #28 Posted April 2, 2016 Money comes from somewhere. The City gets expansions because the City pays for part of it. The Long Islanders get ESA because they pay for part of it. The money can be obtained directly from municipal/county budgets or from the state by legislators lobbying for money. The point is that projects happen because people put money where their mouths are. Westchester is by no means a poor county; nor is Nassau, or Hudson, or Bergen counties. If they really wanted more extensions, they could definitely pay for it or lobby for money from the state, but they don't put in the necessary legwork either because they don't want to or they can't be bothered. I get what you're saying. But I'm asking you personally if people really understand the ramifications or better yet even understand what they should be asking for or even understand where their tax money's going? Be honest 60 or 70 years now years from now you really think we're putting investments that we need and in now? You think this existing infrastructure is going to hold or even work in the world of tomorrow? Pragmatic process for the answer please. Don't tell me with what the books or reports tell you to say tell me what you actually think. What would you do Bob? You seem like a rational person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted April 2, 2016 Share #29 Posted April 2, 2016 I get what you're saying. But I'm asking you personally if people really understand the ramifications or better yet even understand what they should be asking for or even understand where their tax money's going? Be honest 60 or 70 years now years from now you really think we're putting investments that we need and in now? You think this existing infrastructure is going to hold or even work in the world of tomorrow? Pragmatic process for the answer please. Don't tell me with what the books or reports tell you to say tell me what you actually think. What would you do Bob? You seem like a rational person? We don't live in a dictatorship, and in general people thinking they know better has usually not ended too well (see: Robert Moses). New Yorkers have been clamoring for a better subway system in the boroughs for decades, since before the MTA existed. People in CT and Westchester already fight for and get service improvements. Meanwhile Long Island says that more train tracks will make places "lose character" or bring in "those people", and the population is already declining because no one wants to live there. All of these areas have their decisions made by grown-ass adults who are responsible for the consequences of their actions. They made their bed, now they can lie in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted April 2, 2016 Share #30 Posted April 2, 2016 We don't live in a dictatorship, and in general people thinking they know better has usually not ended too well (see: Robert Moses). New Yorkers have been clamoring for a better subway system in the boroughs for decades, since before the MTA existed. People in CT and Westchester already fight for and get service improvements. Meanwhile Long Island says that more train tracks will make places "lose character" or bring in "those people", and the population is already declining because no one wants to live there. All of these areas have their decisions made by grown-ass adults who are responsible for the consequences of their actions. They made their bed, now they can lie in it. No arguments there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted April 2, 2016 Share #31 Posted April 2, 2016 We don't live in a dictatorship, and in general people thinking they know better has usually not ended too well (see: Robert Moses). New Yorkers have been clamoring for a better subway system in the boroughs for decades, since before the MTA existed. People in CT and Westchester already fight for and get service improvements. Meanwhile Long Island says that more train tracks will make places "lose character" or bring in "those people", and the population is already declining because no one wants to live there. All of these areas have their decisions made by grown-ass adults who are responsible for the consequences of their actions. They made their bed, now they can lie in it. Yes. Robert Moses is a prime example of why things are as they are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewYorkElevated Posted April 3, 2016 Share #32 Posted April 3, 2016 Yes. Robert Moses is a prime example of why things are as they are today. ^^So true^^ Especially with the proposals he put out. An expressway through Midtown and Lower Manhattan, and there's a ton more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted April 3, 2016 Share #33 Posted April 3, 2016 ^^So true^^ Especially with the proposals he put out. An expressway through Midtown and Lower Manhattan, and there's a ton more. God damn it man how many pictures of rare FIND displays do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewYorkElevated Posted July 5, 2016 Share #34 Posted July 5, 2016 God damn it man how many pictures of rare FIND displays do you have? The rare FIND displays I come across were during weekend service changes. I have one that shows an New Tech train heading to Jamaica-179th Street during a weekend service change back in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted July 25, 2016 Share #35 Posted July 25, 2016 s-l1600-118 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-117 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-116 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-115 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-114 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-113 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-102 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-101 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-85 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-84 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-83 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-82 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-81 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-80 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-79 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-78 by spicker613, on Flickr s-l1600-77 by spicker613, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GojiMet86 Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share #36 Posted July 25, 2016 Wow, where did you find the NJ map? I knew about the JFK Blvd line from another proposal but this one was completely unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted July 26, 2016 Share #37 Posted July 26, 2016 Wow, where did you find the NJ map? I knew about the JFK Blvd line from another proposal but this one was completely unknown. An ebay seller. BK sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted July 27, 2016 Share #38 Posted July 27, 2016 Yes. Robert Moses is a prime example of why things are as they are today.Yeah. If only we had a Moses for the subways... Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 27, 2016 Share #39 Posted July 27, 2016 Yeah. If only we had a Moses for the subways... Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk Which is a terrible idea, because Robert Moses destroyed entire neighborhoods and uprooted entire communities to move his projects through. It's 2016. We no longer need to gash through the city to create infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted July 27, 2016 Share #40 Posted July 27, 2016 Which is a terrible idea, because Robert Moses destroyed entire neighborhoods and uprooted entire communities to move his projects through. It's 2016. We no longer need to gash through the city to create infrastructure. Last I checked, the only areas that feel any pain when subways are built are the the residents and stores along the right of way. But the entire area reaps the benefits in the long run. If anything, the areas for storage yard construction are the only true issue. But I think one can temporarily displace the residents into hotels, demolish the needed areas, build the yard, and cover it over with new housing. An underground storage yard. You say something needs to be done about subways, but denounce a rapid transit Moses? Man, if we had a Rapid Transit Moses, this discussion would likely not be a thing. Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 27, 2016 Share #41 Posted July 27, 2016 Last I checked, the only areas that feel any pain when subways are built are the the residents and stores along the right of way. But the entire area reaps the benefits in the long run. If anything, the areas for storage yard construction are the only true issue. But I think one can temporarily displace the residents into hotels, demolish the needed areas, build the yard, and cover it over with new housing. An underground storage yard. You say something needs to be done about subways, but denounce a rapid transit Moses? Man, if we had a Rapid Transit Moses, this discussion would likely not be a thing. Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk You don't need to rally around a corrupt autocrat like Robert Moses, or Mussolini to 'get things done.' Many places manage to get by planning infrastructure without centralizing around one egotistical person. Any sort of discussion of a Robert Moses for transit is also hilariously misinformed, because the main reason that Moses was able to complete the highways was because the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority was a giant money maker, which built more bridges and tunnels that became even greater money makers, and so on and so forth. The subway has not, and will never be, a self-sustaining entity, let alone make enough money to fund ever more subway expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted July 27, 2016 Share #42 Posted July 27, 2016 You don't need to rally around a corrupt autocrat like Robert Moses, or Mussolini to 'get things done.' Many places manage to get by planning infrastructure without centralizing around one egotistical person. Any sort of discussion of a Robert Moses for transit is also hilariously misinformed, because the main reason that Moses was able to complete the highways was because the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority was a giant money maker, which built more bridges and tunnels that became even greater money makers, and so on and so forth. The subway has not, and will never be, a self-sustaining entity, let alone make enough money to fund ever more subway expansion. It was a money maker because it had to be. If here was one thing that Moses was exceptional at, it was convincing the Board of Estimate that the Money would be paid back. That was the complete opposite to the Board of Transportation who flat out said that they know the money isn't there, and any subway proposals they had could be amended. You really think hat in today's world we don't need a man with the gift of gab to things done? While the MTA was begging for money from Albany, the Democratic Socialist majority government of France gave the RATP more money (32 Billion Euros) to not only continue to fix the current system, but to build new lines (Grand Paris lines 15, 16, 17, and 18.) of various types. What is needed is a middleman organization like the TB&T with string leadership. In the Paris region. It's the STIF. The needed bridge between public and private. I'm not asking for a self sustaining subway. I'm just asking for more subways. Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted July 27, 2016 Share #43 Posted July 27, 2016 It was a money maker because it had to be. If here was one thing that Moses was exceptional at, it was convincing the Board of Estimate that the Money would be paid back. That was the complete opposite to the Board of Transportation who flat out said that they know the money isn't there, and any subway proposals they had could be amended. You really think hat in today's world we don't need a man with the gift of gab to things done? While the MTA was begging for money from Albany, the Democratic Socialist majority government of France gave the RATP more money (32 Billion Euros) to not only continue to fix the current system, but to build new lines (Grand Paris lines 15, 16, 17, and 18.) of various types. What is needed is a middleman organization like the TB&T with string leadership. In the Paris region. It's the STIF. The needed bridge between public and private. I'm not asking for a self sustaining subway. I'm just asking for more subways. Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk That's the thing, though. The money was paid back. Most of the future projects were paid using TBTA bonds paid for with TBTA money from TBTA projects. In contrast, the Dual Contracts was really just a scheme to milk the IRT and BMT for all they were worth, and the IND was a big reason as to why New York became fiscally insolvent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GojiMet86 Posted September 21, 2016 Author Share #44 Posted September 21, 2016 Saw the Port Authority extension thread and I remembered these maps, for those curious about the alignments and track schematics. These are the maps from the 2013 study: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted June 20, 2017 Share #45 Posted June 20, 2017 hate to bring up an old thread but would like to put up a contrasting point has there ever been a situation in the city where a community leader/ black pastor(not trying to be racist) was whining about the train how it is bad for the neighborhood and some how during it's rehab project some how the pastor was able to con the city into getting rid of the service beliving it was for the good of the community (happened in chicago, pastor named Arthur Brazier conned the cta into cutting what is today's green line and as a result the cta had to forfit federal funds.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted June 20, 2017 Share #46 Posted June 20, 2017 hate to bring up an old thread but would like to put up a contrasting point has there ever been a situation in the city where a community leader/ black pastor(not trying to be racist) was whining about the train how it is bad for the neighborhood and some how during it's rehab project some how the pastor was able to con the city into getting rid of the service beliving it was for the good of the community (happened in chicago, pastor named Arthur Brazier conned the cta into cutting what is today's green line and as a result the cta had to forfit federal funds.) Uh, hell yes. The elevateds disappearing. Cadman Plaza is named after the main opponent to the Crosstown Elevated. The IND second phase as originally planned. The Routes Not Taken answeres this question in immense detail. Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted June 21, 2017 Share #47 Posted June 21, 2017 hate to bring up an old thread but would like to put up a contrasting point has there ever been a situation in the city where a community leader/ black pastor(not trying to be racist) was whining about the train how it is bad for the neighborhood and some how during it's rehab project some how the pastor was able to con the city into getting rid of the service beliving it was for the good of the community (happened in chicago, pastor named Arthur Brazier conned the cta into cutting what is today's green line and as a result the cta had to forfit federal funds.) Actually you were trying to be racist by bringing up the "black pastor" instead of just stopping at community leader or using another descriptor: community activist, special interest, lobbyist, rabble-rouser, etc. And by doing that, you ignore that the elimination of the Els here in NYC wasn't because of Harlem preachers, it was due to wealthy (white) residents and business owners in the UES, midtown and downtown. Were they visionaries or comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTA1992 Posted June 21, 2017 Share #48 Posted June 21, 2017 Well, the DID advocate heavily for the subways that would replace them. The biggest issue is they didn't want to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6 Limited Posted June 21, 2017 Share #49 Posted June 21, 2017 The QB Express would have been a helpful bypass with all of these QBL issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreeddekalbL Posted June 21, 2017 Share #50 Posted June 21, 2017 Actually you were trying to be racist by bringing up the "black pastor" instead of just stopping at community leader or using another descriptor: community activist, special interest, lobbyist, rabble-rouser, etc. And by doing that, you ignore that the elimination of the Els here in NYC wasn't because of Harlem preachers, it was due to wealthy (white) residents and business owners in the UES, midtown and downtown. Were they visionaries or comments? well i didn't mean to be racist but the fact is the black pastor was involved in tearing down the el out in jackson park in chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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