I'm confused now with railcar purchases in 10-14 capital plan

[Fan Railer]

NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT

NEW CARS

CATEGORY T-601

As the largest subway and rail network in the country NYC Transit currently operates a fleet of

about 6,300 rail cars serving 468 stations and approximately five million customers daily. Due

to differences in tunnel geometry, NYC Transit maintains two internal subway divisions: A and

B, respectively corresponding to the numbered and lettered lines. There are approximately

2,800 A division cars and 3,500 B division cars.

The subway car fleet reached a State of Good Repair as of 1991 through a combination of new

car purchases and comprehensive overhauls. Since that time, a program has been in place

with a goal to replace cars as they reach the end of their useful lives (currently 40 years). This

Normal Replacement program also has introduced advanced technologies and improved

customer accessibility features, automated public address systems and signage, improved

lighting, customer emergency intercoms, and electronic route maps.

The PROPOSED 2010-2014 Capital Program - $1.333 billion

New York City Transit proposes to invest $1.333 billion for 463 new rail cars as part of the 2010-

2014 Capital Program. This allows for the purchase of 340 replacement railcars for the B

Division and the purchase of 123 fleet expansion railcars for the A Division. These cars are

needed to accommodate service growth on the Flushing and Broadway/7th Ave. lines. In

addition, budgeted elsewhere is the purchase of 80 replacement cars for the Staten Island

Railway (which operates with B Division equipment).

The B Division replacement project and the SIR replacement project are to replace the R44 car

fleet, which has been in service since 1973/4. These cars will be in excess of 40 years old

when ultimately retired. While this fleet operates reliably today, the projected maintenance

costs going forward --as well as the opportunity to further extend the operating efficiencies and

customer benefits enjoyed by new technology cars-- argue for replacement.

Fleet expansion on the Flushing #7 line of the A Division is in conjunction with the new

technology signal upgrade and an extension to the west side of Manhattan now underway on

that line; additionally, the expansion is slated to allow service increases for the Broadway/7th

Avenue “1 2 3” line services. This expansion fleet will address ridership increases projected in

these corridors by providing additional off-peak and longer periods of peak service.

http://mta.info/mta/pdf/CP/ProposedProgram.pdf

 

01 NEW SUBWAY CARS:

01 123 A Division Railcars (R188)

02 200 B Division Railcars (?) both these could either be option 3 r160s

03 140 B Division Railcars (?) or r179's. idk.

 

01 SIR: MISCELLANEOUS:

04 80 Railcars (R179), up from original 64.

 

LIRR: 84 M-9's to start M-3 replacement.

MNRR: in addition to 342 M-8's, plan 30 M-9's to replace remaining M1's.

 

 

feel free to browse through document and draw your own conclusions.

[R44 5278]

The M3s do not need to be replaced.

[Fan Railer]

For starters, it does not state the contract numbers. Also, the TA isn't ordering anymore 75-foot cars (those who have disagreed with me on that owes me something).

 

yeah, i know that, i was just applying previously known contract information.

[LRG]

For starters, it does not state the contract numbers. Also, the TA isn't ordering anymore 75-foot cars (those who have disagreed with me on that owes me something).

 

Thank god! This means that the R179s won't be 75-footers after all!

[Y2Julio]

For starters, it does not state the contract numbers. Also, the TA isn't ordering anymore 75-foot cars (those who have disagreed with me on that owes me something).

your source for that information is?

[LRG]

The figures above are plausible proof. 80 cars will be ordered for the SIR, up from the proposed 64. This means that there will still be 16 consists of trains but the consists will be 5-car 60-footers instead of 4-car 75-footers.

[Y2Julio]

http://mta.info

 

Look around and you'll see what I mean.

 

I'm not doing your work. You want to claim something you show your source.

[LRG]

Guys, the original poster gave a link. :confused:

[MTR Admiralty]

The figures above are plausible proof. 80 cars will be ordered for the SIR, up from the proposed 64. This means that there will still be 16 consists of trains but the consists will be 5-car 60-footers instead of 4-car 75-footers.

Correct, 80 60-footers are the equivalent of 64 75-footers. The math is correct. Besides, I don't think the MTA plans to have service increases on the SIR. I doubt it is providing a surplus of 16 additional 75-footers.

 

I am very certain that these cars are 60-footers.

[Y2Julio]

Guys, the original poster gave a link. :confused:

The Capital plan is subject to change. It's the MTA's wish list. It's like me asking for a Nikon D5000 for Christmas, sure, I can ask for it but it doesn't mean I will get it.

[LRG]

The Capital plan is subject to change. It's the MTA's wish list. It's like me asking for a Nikon D5000 for Christmas, sure, I can ask for it but it doesn't mean I will get it.

 

Okay then, that's valid, the plan is subject to change, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But as of right now, it all seems logical that the R179s won't be a 75-foot car order; the math I gave and what MTR said can justify that. If it changes, then that's no problem either; it will just show that the MTA can never really make up their mind with that they want....

[metsfan]

So i guess this means they have their sights set on retiring the R44/R46 within a not too distant time frame.

 

I've come to the understanding that is not really basing retirement 100% on condition or age of the equipment, but wants to get a standard fleet that can be upgraded to ATC to reduce headways and reduce line served limitations such as the areas where 75 foot cars can't go in service.

 

This would explain replacing M3's, which while are still reliable, are not nearly as sophisticated as the newer M8 & M9 after that.

 

Yes, i will miss the older fleet, but you know what, every other metro in the world has a pretty standardized rolling fleet, is all most alone in having utterly different interior and exterior designs on each revenue order. I don't blame them for "blanderdizing". We may not like it, but it makes it easier to train, maintain, and plan ahead.

 

- A

[Pu3rToRoCk8947]

I personally don't agree with the notion of the MTA replacing M3's yet,at least not in this capitol budget.M3's have only been around since the early 80's and will be around for another 10 years or so.It will be interesting to see what the proposed R179 and R188 will look like,remember these are pending still.I do think more R160's will be ordered but it's highly unlikely that would happen even after option orders are exhausted.We have to wait and see,speculation is what we have now.

[lilbluefoxie]

Plus, they hardly ever use the M3s, I havent ridden in one since 2001-02, every time I use the LIRR, and I go during varying times, mornings, afternoons, eitehr from Port Washington or Huntington or Ronkonkoma, I have yet to see an M3, I only get M7s, I do see hte M3s but they never seem to run em on any line I go on.

 

Its nice the (NYCT) is looking to get new stuff.

[Pu3rToRoCk8947]

Wish list or not, its been known for a few years now that the MTA is not going to order more 75-foot cars.

Correct,MTA does not want to order anymore 75-foot cars.It's possible the future pending orders of R179/188 will be similar to the R160 cars but with improvements.

[LRG]

I personally don't agree with the notion of the MTA replacing M3's yet,at least not in this capitol budget.M3's have only been around since the early 80's and will be around for another 10 years or so.It will be interesting to see what the proposed R179 and R188 will look like,remember these are pending still.I do think more R160's will be ordered but it's highly unlikely that would happen even after option orders are exhausted.We have to wait and see,speculation is what we have now.

 

The R188s will look pretty much like the R142As because they'll have to run with the R142As once they've been converted to CBTC and are set for Flushing. I wouldn't be surprised if R179s and R160s are compatible to run together as well.

[LandoftheLost]

said there will option2 for ( purchasing 100 R160B) when ( option 1

order 140 R160B are completing build run into service #9803 - #9942 ?

i am guessing .

[Pu3rToRoCk8947]

Plus, they hardly ever use the M3s, I havent ridden in one since 2001-02, every time I use the LIRR, and I go during varying times, mornings, afternoons, eitehr from Port Washington or Huntington or Ronkonkoma, I have yet to see an M3, I only get M7s, I do see hte M3s but they never seem to run em on any line I go on.

 

Its nice the (NYCT) is looking to get new stuff.

M3's are funny to spot most of the time,sometimes you can catch them on the Babylon,Port Washington or Huntington Branches.I have been on the Huntington Branch recently and i have mostly seen M3's and M7's.If you want to catch one stay at Penn Station or Flatbush Avenue Station during Peak hours and you will see a few of them,Off Peak they can be spotty.Far Rockaway runs M3's sometimes during Off Peak hours.

[metsfan]

They are very often on the port washington line. Many times i will see trains, both that bypass & stop at the stadium station are M3.

 

On the MNRR side, i see many M3 there as well at GCT.

 

- A

[Far Rock Depot]

based on the math, even i have to agree that it might more a reality that the new car order may just be 60-footers. The average station length in SI seems to be able to fit a 5-car set of 60-footers.

after reading the pdf, one thing does leave this topic open to discussion....

It doesnt state if the b-divison order and the SIR order would be under the same contract as the previous report did. the previous stated that they were R179's and 64 of them were for SIR leading the reader to assume that these would be 75 footers.

although it still has yet to be reveiled, the statement of 80 cars for SIR do suggest 60-footers.

personnaly IMO, the SIR order should be the only one with 75-footers.

less cars to maintain, a passenger-familiar car reletive to its size compared to current cars, and technically, it IS a railroad. and NOT connected to NYCT's system. No car restraints

[Far Rock Depot]

i just thought of something.....

if SIR does get 60-footers, and run them in sets of 5.....

how would they run 2 car sets overnights?????

[LRG]

i just thought of something.....

if SIR does get 60-footers, and run them in sets of 5.....

how would they run 2 car sets overnights?????

 

Two solutions:

 

1. They either run all five cars, or

2. The units can be singles to run two-, three-, or four-car trains.

[Far Rock Depot]

Two solutions:

 

1. They either run all five cars, or

2. The units can be singles to run two-, three-, or four-car trains.

 

they run 2 cars now cause theres not enough passengers for 4 cars. its a security issue.

singles are more expensive to maintain and are heavier. and the purpose of operating cars in sets is for operating systems to be more affective with cars linked or "hardwired" together to prevent malfuntions.

 

Perhaps the order will be not in 5 car sets but in 4 cars sets with a few 2 car sets for overnight service. remember, its not the subway. SIR would have flexibility in car orders and operation as long as it complies with FRA Class 1A regulations

[LRG]

Well with the R44s on Staten Island the cars are single but the "B" cars still need the "A" cars to run. The "B" cars just come with couplers so longer and shorter trains can be made.

[Far Rock Depot]

true, but the R44s do not have the technology as the newer fleets do. Cars are way more complex when it comes to systems intergration than 30 years ago.