Staten Island Division: 2010 and beyond

[Santa Fe via Willow]

I read on nycsubway.org a while back which was posted by MCI GUY that there was plans to operate a Limited Stop bus service between Eltingville Transit Center and Newark Liberty International Airport.

 

This might have changed, if anyone has any information about this proposed route, please post up anything you might have.

 

That would be AWESOME! SI should have bus service to/from EWR.

 

Maybe private bus companies can fill that gap if (NYCT) can't or won't.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

I think they take some kind of low-sulfur gas. I remember an article that said that one of their suppliers was raising their prices from 20 cents a gallon to 70 cents a gallon (this was a couple of years ago). I believe hybrids get 3.4 miles to the gallon compared with regular buses, which get 2.5 miles to the gallon.

 

As far as your bus routes go, all I can say is that the #308 bus costs $25.50 from Newark to Six Flags, so about $20 round trip seems fair enough. I just can't see people going one-way. Think about it: That place is in the middle of nowhere. If you come by car, you're not going to leave your car there, and if you come by bus, your only option is to get home by bus (unless you plan on hitchhiking back).

 

The only thing would be, maybe for the Jersey Shore routes, you get commuters who take a bus into Staten Island (if they work at a place where they could go to Manhattan for the train or to whereever your route would leave them off) and then come back by the North Jersey Coast Line.

 

Maybe you could negotiate discounts with Six Flags and the beaches on the Jersey Shore, to attract people looking for a bargain (you have to think-generally, those long trips are cheaper by car, especially if you have multiple passengers). You could say something to the effect of: For $20 round trip, you save on parking, gas, and tolls.

 

$20.00 is more than reasonable. Plus it would free people to drink if they want to who'd otherwise be driving.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Maybe these:

 

http://nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23482

 

could be used eventually on Staten Island to fill holes that buses can't &/or no longer fill:cool:

 

For starters, the dead s42 & s60 buses come to mind immediately:tup:

[checkmatechamp13]

The only places I could realistically see a trolley line working would be on Victory Boulevard, Hylan Boulevard, and possibly Richmond Avenue if the HBLR isn' extended down Richmond Avenue.

 

The reason is that trolleys (which are pretty much like light rail) only really work on corridors where there is the perfect amount of ridership-not too much and not too little.

 

If there is too little ridership, the flaws are obvious-it is a pretty large capital expense to build a trolley line, and you have to run a whole trolley instead of a bus, with all of the extra operating costs associated with it. That is why the (S42) and (S60) are probably some of the worst choices for a trolley line-the ridership doesn't warrant it.

 

If there is too much ridership, it is better to build a heavy rail line, which offers additional capacity for less of an operating cost. Think about it-a 4-car to 8-car train vs. a 2-car trolley. You have to pay fewer personell to operate the train. That is why I said it is better to put heavy rail on the North Shore. Also, all of those trolleys operating in the street affects the traffic.

 

If you notice the corridors that am talking about, you see that they all fit the characteristics of a corridor suitable for a trolley.

 

As far as the (S42) and (S60), there should definitely be nothing done about the (S60)-the (S66) covers it fine on weekdays (and better than the (S60) ever did, as it goes to St George) and, if the people on Grymes Hill really need weekend service, the (S66) can be expanded on weekends. In my opinion, the (S42) is covered well enough on the eastern portion by the (S52), but, since that New Brighton area is really hilly (you can see it along Castleton Avenue and Forest Avenue how hilly it is), a dollar van service can cover it if the people think it is necessary.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

The only places I could realistically see a trolley line working would be on Victory Boulevard, Hylan Boulevard, and possibly Richmond Avenue if the HBLR isn' extended down Richmond Avenue.

 

The reason is that trolleys (which are pretty much like light rail) only really work on corridors where there is the perfect amount of ridership-not too much and not too little.

 

If there is too little ridership, the flaws are obvious-it is a pretty large capital expense to build a trolley line, and you have to run a whole trolley instead of a bus, with all of the extra operating costs associated with it. That is why the (S42) and (S60) are probably some of the worst choices for a trolley line-the ridership doesn't warrant it.

 

If there is too much ridership, it is better to build a heavy rail line, which offers additional capacity for less of an operating cost. Think about it-a 4-car to 8-car train vs. a 2-car trolley. You have to pay fewer personell to operate the train. That is why I said it is better to put heavy rail on the North Shore. Also, all of those trolleys operating in the street affects the traffic.

 

If you notice the corridors that am talking about, you see that they all fit the characteristics of a corridor suitable for a trolley.

 

As far as the (S42) and (S60), there should definitely be nothing done about the (S60)-the (S66) covers it fine on weekdays (and better than the (S60) ever did, as it goes to St George) and, if the people on Grymes Hill really need weekend service, the (S66) can be expanded on weekends. In my opinion, the (S42) is covered well enough on the eastern portion by the (S52), but, since that New Brighton area is really hilly (you can see it along Castleton Avenue and Forest Avenue how hilly it is), a dollar van service can cover it if the people think it is necessary.

 

It would be awesome to see trolleys on Victory, Hylan & Richmond Avenue:cool:

 

Dollar vans are an underutilized resource. It'd be good to see those on SI:tup:

[checkmatechamp13]

I have an idea for a new bus route that would expand service into new neighborhoods. The problem is that it would duplicate more frequent and more popular routes, and the surrounding neighborhoods are generally not very dense.

 

The route can start at the Teleport, and run the following route:

 

South Avenue-Travis Avenue-Victory Boulevard-Signs Road-Arlene Street-Lamberts Lane-Richmond Avenue-Deppe Place/Watchogue Road-Willowbrook Road-College Avenue-Martling Avenue-Clove Road-Bard Avenue and possibly terminate at St.Vincent's Hospital or merge into one of the North Shore routes.

 

It could possibly run as an extension of the S42, if it isn't merged with the S54.

 

What does everybody think?

[Santa Fe via Willow]

I have an idea for a new bus route that would expand service into new neighborhoods. The problem is that it would duplicate more frequent and more popular routes, and the surrounding neighborhoods are generally not very dense.

 

The route can start at the Teleport, and run the following route:

 

South Avenue-Travis Avenue-Victory Boulevard-Signs Road-Arlene Street-Lamberts Lane-Richmond Avenue-Deppe Place/Watchogue Road-Willowbrook Road-College Avenue-Martling Avenue-Clove Road-Bard Avenue and possibly terminate at St.Vincent's Hospital or merge into one of the North Shore routes.

 

It could possibly run as an extension of the S42, if it isn't merged with the S54.

 

What does everybody think?

 

:cool::tup:

 

You think like me:)

 

SI has too many roads & streets unused, underused, unserved & underserved by (NYCT).

 

I like the routing of your route.

[checkmatechamp13]

Now that I think about it, it doesn't really parallel any one route (or corridor) for a significant distance. It parallels the Victory Blvd (S62/S92), Richmond Avenue (S44/S59/S89/S94), and Forest Avenue (S48/S98) routes for a portion, as well as the S57 (which doesn't count because it only runs every 30 minutes), but it doesn't parallel any route for much more than a mile.

 

Not to mention that these neighborhoods aren't well-connected. If I want to get from the Teleport to College Avenue, I would have to take the S46 to Forest Avenue and transfer to the S48 and then walk over a pretty long distance over to College Avenue, (not ridiculously long, but still pretty long). The same pretty much applies for all of the other neighborhoods involved.

 

As far as major traffic generators go, they would be the Teleport, some fairly dense housing near Signs Road and along Richmond Avenue, Moore Catholic High School, I.S.51, and St. Vincent's Hospital as well as all of the transfer points and shopping districts it passes through. The cost recovery probably wouldn't be great, but I could picture it being about as efficient as the S57, or about $4.00 per person, if it ran all day. If it ran from 6AM-9AM and 2PM-6PM (school hours and rush hour), it would probably be more like $3.00 per person.

[S78 via Hylan]

I have a new idea. Many have mentioned ideas before about the (S42)/(S54) combo, but here's my idea:

 

The new route which will be renumbered as the (S54) would run St. George Ferry Terminal to Hylan Blvd/Richmond Av via Bay St, Slosson Terrace, Cental Av, St. Marks Place, Westervelt Av, Jersey St, Brighton Av, Lafayette Av, Henderson Av and then it's regular route from there.

 

The Hours of Operation would be from 5AM to 10:30 PM Weekdays and maybe even some weekend service if needed.

 

Benefits: High School students will have a direct route to Susan Wagner HS, Seaview Hospital, and the (SIR) Great Kills Train Station. This would also turn two useless routes targeted for elmination into one useful route. This would also eliminate transfers between other bus routes.

[checkmatechamp13]

I think that that was what everybody was thinking of when they thought of the (S42)/(S54) combo. I can't think of any other possible way of combining the 2 routes.

 

As far as the ridership, I don't think ridership would skyrocket to the point where weekend service would be warranted.

 

The thing is that, for the most part, you wouldn't have very much overlapping ridership. Nobody would ride the route from St. George/New Brighton all the way to Great Kills, because there are routes that travel that route more directly.

 

The people who would realistically benefit are those traveling to Sea View Hospital, since those people can realistically live anywhere on Staten Island. Also, people traveling from St. George/New Brighton into West New Brighton/Westerleigh would probably benefit. For everybody else, their trips will remain unchanged, as they would only be riding one section or the other section of the route.

 

For example, the Great Kills (SIR) station is frequented by the people in the neighborhood, or who are headed in that general direction. For example, to go from West Brighton to Tottenville, the most direct way is to take the (S54) to Great Kills for the (SIR). However, not a whole lot of people coming from New Brighton would take the (S54) to Great Kills because they have the option of either the (S52) to Stapleton for the (SIR) or the New Brighton end of the (S54) (or what is now the (S42)) to St. George for the (SIR).

 

The same applies for Susan Wagner High School-relatively few people come from New Brighton to Susan Wagner High School.

 

My point is that there definitely are benefits, but I think that there is a limit to how high the ridership can go. If the (S42) and (S54) had about 4,000 weekday riders combined, then realistically, I definitely can't see the ridership going over 5,000.

[LRG]

I honestly don't think that even after the S42 and S54 are combined should that ever happen, that won't warrant weekend service for such combined routing. I'm glad that checkmate brought up that Susan Wagner students are affected should they have a special Saturday class.

 

In my opinion, the best thing to do is to alter an existing route to serve the affectd sector: the S61.

 

By doing this, there would be no need for weekend S42/S54 service along Manor Road for Susan Wagner students that have classes on Saturdays In addition, this would give riders who attend the high school that live close to Victory Boulevard a one-seat ride without having to make a transfer to the S54 during regular school hours. My proposed pattern would have every other bus alternate via either Bradley Avenue or Manor Road when headways are no greater than every 15 minutes along the normal route (so both streets could be served every 30 minutes); when headways are greater than 30 minutes, all buses will serve Bradley Avenue. Astonishingly, the S61 maintains 10-minute frequency from the mall to the ferry on weekdays from as early as 5:30 so the buses that serve Manor Road can still alternate evenly, or for every two buses that serve Bradley Avenue, one bus would serve Manor Road every 30 minutes (but I'd shoot for all service alternating evenly over 2 for 1 service though).

 

I've created a map to show how the S61 service via Manor Road would work (link).

 

This pattern is similar to how the S51 alternates between School Road and Fort Wadsworth.

 

Originally, I had decided to have S61 buses turn off Manor Road to run along Harold Street where it would resume normal service after crossing Bradley Avenue, but there would be the issue of adding bus stops and losing current parking space, so I instead shot for routing the S61 along the S54's route completely between Victory Boulevard/Manor Road and Bradley/Breille Avenues, then head north along Bradley Avenue making an S57 stop before turning onto Harold Street and continuing to the mall (or vice versa). I understand it's a bit longer but should add no more than five minutes to the runtime.

 

Comments?

[checkmatechamp13]

I also thought of sending the S61 down there. I actually thought of a grand plan for the whole neighborhood.

 

1) Send all S61/S91 buses along Manor Road.

2) Send the S54 route up Bradley Avenue and then continue down Jewett Avenue to Port Richmond.

3) Send the S66 up Manor Road instead of Jewett Avenue.

 

Unfortunately, the S42 wouldn't be able to be combined with the S54 if this plan were to go through. However, it could be extended along the route that I mentioned yesterday at 5:10 PM.

 

The advantages of my plan are as follows:

 

-The frequencies of buses along Bradley Avenue and Manor Road are roughly even (around 4 buses per hour throughout the day on weekdays)

-The Todt Hill Houses get direct access to the Staten Island Ferry (they are the only housing project on Staten Island without direct access to the ferry)

-The S54 and S57 will run on the same streets from Richmond Road to Victory Blvd, and again in Port Richmond. This would make it easier for people going to the Greenbelt. For example: If I am on an S62 going eastbound and want to go to SeaView Hospital, I don't have to make a choice between waiting at Bradley Avenue for the S57 or at Manor Road for the S54 (considering that, seperately, they run every 30 minutes).

-There is no confusion as to whether the S61 runs via Manor Road or via Bradley Avenue.

 

The only real disadvantage is the fact that people north of Victory Blvd would lose direct access to Susan Wagner High School. However, they can always transfer at Victory Blvd to the S61.

[East New York]

I honestly don't think that even after the S42 and S54 are combined should that ever happen, that won't warrant weekend service for such combined routing. I'm glad that checkmate brought up that Susan Wagner students are affected should they have a special Saturday class.

 

In my opinion, the best thing to do is to alter an existing route to serve the affectd sector: the S61.

 

By doing this, there would be no need for weekend S42/S54 service along Manor Road for Susan Wagner students that have classes on Saturdays In addition, this would give riders who attend the high school that live close to Victory Boulevard a one-seat ride without having to make a transfer to the S54 during regular school hours. My proposed pattern would have every other bus alternate via either Bradley Avenue or Manor Road when headways are no greater than every 15 minutes along the normal route (so both streets could be served every 30 minutes); when headways are greater than 30 minutes, all buses will serve Bradley Avenue. Astonishingly, the S61 maintains 10-minute frequency from the mall to the ferry on weekdays from as early as 5:30 so the buses that serve Manor Road can still alternate evenly, or for every two buses that serve Bradley Avenue, one bus would serve Manor Road every 30 minutes (but I'd shoot for all service alternating evenly over 2 for 1 service though).

 

I've created a map to show how the S61 service via Manor Road would work (link).

 

This pattern is similar to how the S51 alternates between School Road and Fort Wadsworth.

 

Originally, I had decided to have S61 buses turn off Manor Road to run along Harold Street where it would resume normal service after crossing Bradley Avenue, but there would be the issue of adding bus stops and losing current parking space, so I instead shot for routing the S61 along the S54's route completely between Victory Boulevard/Manor Road and Bradley/Breille Avenues, then head north along Bradley Avenue making an S57 stop before turning onto Harold Street and continuing to the mall (or vice versa). I understand it's a bit longer but should add no more than five minutes to the runtime.

 

Comments?

 

I'm not really an SI guy, but that sounds like a winner to me!

[LRG]

I also thought of sending the S61 down there. I actually thought of a grand plan for the whole neighborhood.

 

1) Send all S61/S91 buses along Manor Road.

2) Send the S54 route up Bradley Avenue and then continue down Jewett Avenue to Port Richmond.

3) Send the S66 up Manor Road instead of Jewett Avenue.

 

Unfortunately, the S42 wouldn't be able to be combined with the S54 if this plan were to go through. However, it could be extended along the route that I mentioned yesterday at 5:10 PM.

 

The advantages of my plan are as follows:

 

-The frequencies of buses along Bradley Avenue and Manor Road are roughly even (around 4 buses per hour throughout the day on weekdays)

-The Todt Hill Houses get direct access to the Staten Island Ferry (they are the only housing project on Staten Island without direct access to the ferry)

-The S54 and S57 will run on the same streets from Richmond Road to Victory Blvd, and again in Port Richmond. This would make it easier for people going to the Greenbelt. For example: If I am on an S62 going eastbound and want to go to SeaView Hospital, I don't have to make a choice between waiting at Bradley Avenue for the S57 or at Manor Road for the S54 (considering that, seperately, they run every 30 minutes).

-There is no confusion as to whether the S61 runs via Manor Road or via Bradley Avenue.

 

The only real disadvantage is the fact that people north of Victory Blvd would lose direct access to Susan Wagner High School. However, they can always transfer at Victory Blvd to the S61.

 

The idea that I'm mainly shooting for is that there could be two services along Bradley Avenue (S57 and S61/91 LTD) and Manor Road (S54 and S61/91 LTD) so when the S54 is out on weekends, the S61 replaces it between in the Todt Hill area with the same headways that the S54 had (30 minutes). I guess it wouldn't hurt if there was extra service along Manor Road on weekends if the S61 were to be rerouted there but trip times would be roughly five-seven minutes extra but you wouldn't want to take all the direct mall service away from Bradley Avenue...just reduce it slightly.

[checkmatechamp13]

But that's the problem, though-that the S54 only runs every 30 minutes, so Manor Road ends up being underserved if the bus serving it runs every 30 minutes.

 

The problem with any branch or short-turn is that there are always going to be people who get confused as to where the bus goes, for whatever reason (there have been plenty of times when I ran for a bus that said "S46", only to dicover that it ended at Forest Avenue). That is why I recommended that both streets the S61 run solely down Manor Road, so that everybody knows that, if the bus says "S61", it will run down Manor Road and Brielle Avenue.

 

If you look at this map (http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Staten-Island-Staten-Island-NY.html) and these two maps: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Bull-s-Head-Staten-Island-NY.html and http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Emerson-Hill-Staten-Island-NY.html , scroll down to "population density", and zoom in on the neighborhoods near Bradley Avenue and Manor Road. You'll see that the population density is slightly higher near Manor Road, meaning that, if anything, Manor Road should receive more service.

 

Also, if the service is split, that means that Manor Road and Bradley Avenue receive service every 30 minutes, and that you may cause people to not know whether to take the bus on Bradley Avenue or Manor Road (for those living between the 2 streets). If the service is all on Manor Road, people will know that the S61 doesn't serve Bradley Avenue and walk to the coest S61 stop on Manor Road or Brielle Avenue.

[LRG]

But that's the problem, though-that the S54 only runs every 30 minutes, so Manor Road ends up being underserved if the bus serving it runs every 30 minutes.

 

The problem with any branch or short-turn is that there are always going to be people who get confused as to where the bus goes, for whatever reason (there have been plenty of times when I ran for a bus that said "S46", only to dicover that it ended at Forest Avenue). That is why I recommended that both streets the S61 run solely down Manor Road, so that everybody knows that, if the bus says "S61", it will run down Manor Road and Brielle Avenue.

 

If you look at this map (http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Staten-Island-Staten-Island-NY.html) and these two maps: http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Bull-s-Head-Staten-Island-NY.html and http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Emerson-Hill-Staten-Island-NY.html , scroll down to "population density", and zoom in on the neighborhoods near Bradley Avenue and Manor Road. You'll see that the population density is slightly higher near Manor Road, meaning that, if anything, Manor Road should receive more service.

 

Also, if the service is split, that means that Manor Road and Bradley Avenue receive service every 30 minutes, and that you may cause people to not know whether to take the bus on Bradley Avenue or Manor Road (for those living between the 2 streets). If the service is all on Manor Road, people will know that the S61 doesn't serve Bradley Avenue and walk to the coest S61 stop on Manor Road or Brielle Avenue.

 

You know something, I'm convinced now. The S61 should serve Manor Road and Breille Avenue. I can also see that by having the S54 and S57 run along Bradley Avenue they interline until Victory Boulevard instead of Breille Avenue, especially since they both operate every 30 minutes even during the rush hours.

[checkmatechamp13]

You know something, I'm convinced now. The S61 should serve Manor Road and Breille Avenue. I can also see that by having the S54 and S57 run along Bradley Avenue they interline until Victory Boulevard instead of Breille Avenue, especially since they both operate every 30 minutes even during the rush hours.

 

Actually, for a brief period of time in the morning rush hour (about 7:00AM-8:30AM), the S54 runs every 10-15 minutes north of Sea View Hospital, and during school dismissal times (about 1:00PM-3:00PM southbound and 3:25PM-4:45PM northbound), the S54 runs every 20 minutes (see http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/staten/s054cur.pdf). A similar situation exists for the S57 (see http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/staten/s057cur.pdf). But I see your point: that frequencies in the Greenbelt could be potentially cut in half to a reasonable time (10-15 minutes) if they are interlined correctly.

 

The only disadvantage is that S54 customers lose direct access to Susan Wagner High School. However, it is only about a 6 minute walk (and I think that there are special buses in both the AM and PM), and they are balanced out by S61 customers gaining direct access to Susan Wagner High School.

 

 

I also have another idea: There are plans for the West Shore Light Rail Line, but there is not even a bus line in the corridor of the West Shore Expressway. This new route would get the people accustomed to taking public transit in these corridors and could be called the S73 (South Shore buses are generally in the S70s and this most closely parallels the S74, out of all other South Shore routes)

 

The routing would be as follows:

 

*WSE-West Shore Expressway

*MLK-Martin Luther King Jr. Expressway

 

SB (from 34th Street HBLR station): Route 440(MLK)-Morningstar Road-Richmond Avenue-Goethals Road North-South Avenue-Route 440(WSE)-Arden Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Rossville Avene-Woodrow Road-Bloomingdale Road-Englewood Avenue-Veterans Road West-Arthur Kill Road-Main Street.

 

NB (from Tottenville): Amboy Road-Johnson Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Veterans oad West-Englewood Avenue-Bloomingdale Road-Woodrow Road-Rossville Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Arden Avenue-Route 440(WSE)-South Avenue-Fahy Avenue-Lamberts Lane-Richmond Avenue-Morningstar Road-Walker Street-Trantor Place-Route 440(MLK)-34th Street HBLR station.

 

The route would have some "cherry stems" (a phrase I got from one of the transportation blogs that refers to a point where a route diverges from the main route and then goes back on, like the S62 at the College of Staten Island, or the S74 at the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility). They would be at:

-The Teleport (possibly)

-The West Shore Plaza

-Exiting the WSE to stop at Victory Blvd and then remerging onto the WSE.

-The Bricktown Shopping Center

 

Alternatives:

-Go down Sharrotts Road instead of Englewood Avenue

-Avoid going down the West Shore Expressway service road and instead take the S74/S84 route from Arden Avenue/Arthur Kill Road to Amboy Road/Main Street.

 

 

The advantage of this route is that it would expand the network coverage onto new streets in certain sections of Staten Island, including Fahy Avenue/Goethals Road North, the West Shore Expressway (facilitates north/south travel for residents of West Shore neighborhoods), and Veterans Road. Also, it would supplement the frequencies of other routes neighborhoods, like the S44/S59/S89/S94 on Richmond Avenue, the S46/S96 on South Avenue, the S74/S84 on Arthur Kill Road, and the S55 on Bloomingdale Road (depending if the route goes down Sharrotts Road or Englewood Avenue).

 

One of the major groups that it would benefit, besides the ones I mentioned above, are the schoolkids on the South Shore who have lost their school bus service. While I feel that they are hyping it up to be more than it is (I've walked through the same situations for school related activities on the North Shore, like desolate underpasses and roads without sidewalks), their concerns about the frequencies of bus service on the South Shore are valid, to an extent (since most routes run every 30 minutes). This would either give them more frequent service or more coverage, depending on which route is chosen.

 

The headways would be as follows:

 

Weekdays:

 

Rush hour: 12-15 minutes

Midday: 20 minutes

Evenings: 30 minutes

 

(Runs roughly from 5AM-10PM)

 

Weekends:

 

20 minutes throughout the day.

 

(Runs roughly from 6AM-9PM)

 

What does everybody think?

[checkmatechamp13]

:cool::tup:

 

You think like me:)

 

SI has too many roads & streets unused, underused, unserved & underserved by (NYCT).

 

I like the routing of your route.

 

Agreed. The problem with Staten Island is:

 

a) The relatively low population density and auto-centric mentality (more people will ride transit if they do not have access to a car), which means that there are fewer people to potentially ride a route.

 

The lack of train stations for routes to feed into: Trains are much faster than buses, which makes them a more desirable choice. For example, at Port Richmond Avenue/Richmond Terrace, there is a terminal for the (S53), (S57), (S59), and (S66), which all connect to the (S40)/(S90). As of now, you don't get a whole lot of people transferring between these routes. However, if the North Shore Rail Line opened up the station at Port Richmond, half a block away, you would see more people finding that taking a local bus to the train is quicker than a local bus directly to their destination. As of now, that is not the case, so you have more people in cars because there is no comparable alternative, as far as speed is concerned.

 

For example a person traveling from Forest Avenue/Port Richmond Avenue to the ferry now has to take the (S48)/(S98) to the ferry, which takes about 25-30 minutes. If the North Shore Rail Line were built, a person would be able to take a 7-8 minute trip on the (S57) or (S59) to Richmond Terrace and then take the North Shore Rail Line to St. George, which takes 8-10 minutes, potentially cutting the travel time in half. Realistically, when you factor in the waiting time, that time savings goes from 15 minutes to 10 minutes, but it is still quicker and more efficient (to the to run the train line than the bus line).

 

Therefore, the real solution is to build more rail lines in Staten Island, which would solve both of the problems. The development caused by the proximity to a rail line would cause more dense housing to be built (causing more people to ride transit in the surrounding neighborhood, which results in more service being run on existing routes and more new routes being created, which results in more ridership for the transit agency), and the stations themselves would provide a hub for bus lines to feed into from the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

For example, as of now, my bus line would only feed into other bus lines. However, if there was a North Shore Rail Line that were extended down the West Shore Expressway, with a stop at Bloomfield, my line would be an attractive line to bring people from the surrounding neighborhoods into that station. The same would apply if there was an HBLR extension down the MLK Expressway-people from the surrounding neighborhoods would be able to take the bus to the train.

[checkmatechamp13]

Now that I look at my post, I realize that almost every single station could have buses that feed into it (perpendicularly). The route that ran along College Avenue could go up Bard Avenue to terminate at a "Livingston" station (that used to be at that location). That way, everybody can have the best of both worlds-an (S42)/(S54) combination route and a route that fills in gaps in other North Shore neighbohoods.

 

Another idea is a shuttle feeding into a Mariners' Harbor station at Van Pelt Avenue/Linden Avenue. The routing could be as follows:

SB: Linden Avenue-Maple Parkway-Forest Avenue-Amity Place-Amador Street-South Avenue.

NB: South Avenue-Lisk Avenue-Amity Place-Forest Avenue-Van Pelt Avenue-Linden Avenue.

 

And, of course, existing routes can be bent to serve the stations. For example, the (S46)/(S96) can be diverted into the Bloomfield station (possibly that Mariners' Harbor Shuttle and (S93) could be extended there as well)

 

On the South Shore, that idea may or may not be able to work, due to the fact that it is more car-centered. Besides bending the routing of bus lines to serve stations that already exist (such as sending the (S55) to the line down the West Shore Expressway, which can be seen in my proposed Staten Island rail system here: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=323494&postcount=67, another idea is to create some route down Hugenot Avenue to serve the Hugenot station, possibly as a branch of the (S74) or (S78).

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Actually, for a brief period of time in the morning rush hour (about 7:00AM-8:30AM), the S54 runs every 10-15 minutes north of Sea View Hospital, and during school dismissal times (about 1:00PM-3:00PM southbound and 3:25PM-4:45PM northbound), the S54 runs every 20 minutes (see http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/staten/s054cur.pdf). A similar situation exists for the S57 (see http://mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/staten/s057cur.pdf). But I see your point: that frequencies in the Greenbelt could be potentially cut in half to a reasonable time (10-15 minutes) if they are interlined correctly.

 

The only disadvantage is that S54 customers lose direct access to Susan Wagner High School. However, it is only about a 6 minute walk (and I think that there are special buses in both the AM and PM), and they are balanced out by S61 customers gaining direct access to Susan Wagner High School.

 

 

I also have another idea: There are plans for the West Shore Light Rail Line, but there is not even a bus line in the corridor of the West Shore Expressway. This new route would get the people accustomed to taking public transit in these corridors and could be called the S73 (South Shore buses are generally in the S70s and this most closely parallels the S74, out of all other South Shore routes)

 

The routing would be as follows:

 

*WSE-West Shore Expressway

*MLK-Martin Luther King Jr. Expressway

 

SB (from 34th Street HBLR station): Route 440(MLK)-Morningstar Road-Richmond Avenue-Goethals Road North-South Avenue-Route 440(WSE)-Arden Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Rossville Avene-Woodrow Road-Bloomingdale Road-Englewood Avenue-Veterans Road West-Arthur Kill Road-Main Street.

 

NB (from Tottenville): Amboy Road-Johnson Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Veterans oad West-Englewood Avenue-Bloomingdale Road-Woodrow Road-Rossville Avenue-Arthur Kill Road-Arden Avenue-Route 440(WSE)-South Avenue-Fahy Avenue-Lamberts Lane-Richmond Avenue-Morningstar Road-Walker Street-Trantor Place-Route 440(MLK)-34th Street HBLR station.

 

The route would have some "cherry stems" (a phrase I got from one of the transportation blogs that refers to a point where a route diverges from the main route and then goes back on, like the S62 at the College of Staten Island, or the S74 at the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility). They would be at:

-The Teleport (possibly)

-The West Shore Plaza

-Exiting the WSE to stop at Victory Blvd and then remerging onto the WSE.

-The Bricktown Shopping Center

 

Alternatives:

-Go down Sharrotts Road instead of Englewood Avenue

-Avoid going down the West Shore Expressway service road and instead take the S74/S84 route from Arden Avenue/Arthur Kill Road to Amboy Road/Main Street.

 

 

The advantage of this route is that it would expand the network coverage onto new streets in certain sections of Staten Island, including Fahy Avenue/Goethals Road North, the West Shore Expressway (facilitates north/south travel for residents of West Shore neighborhoods), and Veterans Road. Also, it would supplement the frequencies of other routes neighborhoods, like the S44/S59/S89/S94 on Richmond Avenue, the S46/S96 on South Avenue, the S74/S84 on Arthur Kill Road, and the S55 on Bloomingdale Road (depending if the route goes down Sharrotts Road or Englewood Avenue).

 

One of the major groups that it would benefit, besides the ones I mentioned above, are the schoolkids on the South Shore who have lost their school bus service. While I feel that they are hyping it up to be more than it is (I've walked through the same situations for school related activities on the North Shore, like desolate underpasses and roads without sidewalks), their concerns about the frequencies of bus service on the South Shore are valid, to an extent (since most routes run every 30 minutes). This would either give them more frequent service or more coverage, depending on which route is chosen.

 

The headways would be as follows:

 

Weekdays:

 

Rush hour: 12-15 minutes

Midday: 20 minutes

Evenings: 30 minutes

 

(Runs roughly from 5AM-10PM)

 

Weekends:

 

20 minutes throughout the day.

 

(Runs roughly from 6AM-9PM)

 

What does everybody think?

 

:tup::tup: as Siskel & Ebert would've said.

 

:cool:

 

I've had & have similar thoughts regarding SI's highways & bus routes & routing.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Agreed. The problem with Staten Island is:

 

a) The relatively low population density and auto-centric mentality (more people will ride transit if they do not have access to a car), which means that there are fewer people to potentially ride a route.

 

The lack of train stations for routes to feed into: Trains are much faster than buses, which makes them a more desirable choice. For example, at Port Richmond Avenue/Richmond Terrace, there is a terminal for the (S53), (S57), (S59), and (S66), which all connect to the (S40)/(S90). As of now, you don't get a whole lot of people transferring between these routes. However, if the North Shore Rail Line opened up the station at Port Richmond, half a block away, you would see more people finding that taking a local bus to the train is quicker than a local bus directly to their destination. As of now, that is not the case, so you have more people in cars because there is no comparable alternative, as far as speed is concerned.

 

For example a person traveling from Forest Avenue/Port Richmond Avenue to the ferry now has to take the (S48)/(S98) to the ferry, which takes about 25-30 minutes. If the North Shore Rail Line were built, a person would be able to take a 7-8 minute trip on the (S57) or (S59) to Richmond Terrace and then take the North Shore Rail Line to St. George, which takes 8-10 minutes, potentially cutting the travel time in half. Realistically, when you factor in the waiting time, that time savings goes from 15 minutes to 10 minutes, but it is still quicker and more efficient (to the to run the train line than the bus line).

 

Therefore, the real solution is to build more rail lines in Staten Island, which would solve both of the problems. The development caused by the proximity to a rail line would cause more dense housing to be built (causing more people to ride transit in the surrounding neighborhood, which results in more service being run on existing routes and more new routes being created, which results in more ridership for the transit agency), and the stations themselves would provide a hub for bus lines to feed into from the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

For example, as of now, my bus line would only feed into other bus lines. However, if there was a North Shore Rail Line that were extended down the West Shore Expressway, with a stop at Bloomfield, my line would be an attractive line to bring people from the surrounding neighborhoods into that station. The same would apply if there was an HBLR extension down the MLK Expressway-people from the surrounding neighborhoods would be able to take the bus to the train.

 

I hope SI will have essentially an Island Perimeter Train wrapping around the whole island:

 

The existing Tottenville/St.George SIR.

 

The Resurrected North Shore SIR.

 

The West Shore Rail-line.

 

Possibly, probably(?), some trains would go from Tottenville to St.George, then from St.George to Arlington, then from Arlington back to Tottenville.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Now that I look at my post, I realize that almost every single station could have buses that feed into it (perpendicularly). The route that ran along College Avenue could go up Bard Avenue to terminate at a "Livingston" station (that used to be at that location). That way, everybody can have the best of both worlds-an (S42)/(S54) combination route and a route that fills in gaps in other North Shore neighbohoods.

 

Another idea is a shuttle feeding into a Mariners' Harbor station at Van Pelt Avenue/Linden Avenue. The routing could be as follows:

SB: Linden Avenue-Maple Parkway-Forest Avenue-Amity Place-Amador Street-South Avenue.

NB: South Avenue-Lisk Avenue-Amity Place-Forest Avenue-Van Pelt Avenue-Linden Avenue.

 

And, of course, existing routes can be bent to serve the stations. For example, the (S46)/(S96) can be diverted into the Bloomfield station (possibly that Mariners' Harbor Shuttle and (S93) could be extended there as well)

 

On the South Shore, that idea may or may not be able to work, due to the fact that it is more car-centered. Besides bending the routing of bus lines to serve stations that already exist (such as sending the (S55) to the line down the West Shore Expressway, which can be seen in my proposed Staten Island rail system here: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=323494&postcount=67, another idea is to create some route down Hugenot Avenue to serve the Hugenot station, possibly as a branch of the (S74) or (S78).

 

12+ years ago I had similar thoughts about a Huguenot Avenue SIR bus, which would run up & down the whole length of Huguenot Ave during weekday rush-hours (IIRC).

 

I found out later about the F shuttle bus, on Coney Island is it?, or was it?, which is basically the same thing as what I'd thought the Huguenot Ave SIR should have.

 

It'll be interesting to see the North Shore SIR's Second Coming.

 

As well as the West Shore Lightrail.

[checkmatechamp13]

I was originally pretty hesitant about that Hugenot Avenue bus line because all of Hugenot Avenue is served by at least 1 express route (the X24 north of Woodrow Road, the X17/X19 between Woodrow Road and Drumgoogle Road, and the X23 south of Drumgoogle Road), but I figure that, if it comes in as a shuttle solely down Hugenot Avenue, it will probably fail. However, if it were extended to another destination (perhaps the Staten Island Mall or Eltingville Transit Center), it should do alright. (My original idea of an extension of the (S46) was rejected by a couple of users on this sight because the route would become too long (about 21 miles end-to-end))

 

Since the one of the important aspects behind getting people to use buses is frequency, that route could run in tandem with the (S56) and (S74)/(S84) along Arthur Kill Road, so that, although each route seperately runs infrequently, Arthur Kill Road between Arden Avenue and Richmond Avenue would have 3 bus lines serving it, meaning that people might actually take public transportation to reach the Eltingville Transit Center instead of driving.

 

Or maybe my idea of an extension of the (S74) or (S78) would be better. All of the Tottenville buses would remain as Tottenville buses and all of the ones that terminate at Richmond Avenue would be extended down Hugenot Avenue. If the goal is to get riders to the transit center, the (S74) would be the better choice.

 

As far as the shuttle bus, I believe you are referring to the one that ran from 2002-2004 when they were rehabilitating the Coney Island subway station. If I recall correctly, that shuttle bus ran in a clockwise loop down Shell Road, Surf Avenue, Stillwell Avenue, and Neptune Avenue.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

I was originally pretty hesitant about that Hugenot Avenue bus line because all of Hugenot Avenue is served by at least 1 express route (the X24 north of Woodrow Road, the X17/X19 between Woodrow Road and Drumgoogle Road, and the X23 south of Drumgoogle Road), but I figure that, if it comes in as a shuttle solely down Hugenot Avenue, it will probably fail. However, if it were extended to another destination (perhaps the Staten Island Mall or Eltingville Transit Center), it should do alright. (My original idea of an extension of the (S46) was rejected by a couple of users on this sight because the route would become too long (about 21 miles end-to-end))

 

Since the one of the important aspects behind getting people to use buses is frequency, that route could run in tandem with the (S56) and (S74)/(S84) along Arthur Kill Road, so that, although each route seperately runs infrequently, Arthur Kill Road between Arden Avenue and Richmond Avenue would have 3 bus lines serving it, meaning that people might actually take public transportation to reach the Eltingville Transit Center instead of driving.

 

Or maybe my idea of an extension of the (S74) or (S78) would be better. All of the Tottenville buses would remain as Tottenville buses and all of the ones that terminate at Richmond Avenue would be extended down Hugenot Avenue. If the goal is to get riders to the transit center, the (S74) would be the better choice.

 

As far as the shuttle bus, I believe you are referring to the one that ran from 2002-2004 when they were rehabilitating the Coney Island subway station. If I recall correctly, that shuttle bus ran in a clockwise loop down Shell Road, Surf Avenue, Stillwell Avenue, and Neptune Avenue.

 

Yes. That's the bus. I still have a Brooklyn 2003 MTA Bus Map with the Shuttle Bus on it.

[checkmatechamp13]

I thought of an idea for restructuring the Victory Blvd routes to reduce duplication:

 

Send the (S61) up Brielle Avenue and Manor Road to terminate at Broadway/Richmond Terrace. (The (S91) designation would be eliminated)

Send the (S54) up Bradley Avenue and Jewett Avenue to terminate at Port Richmond Avenue/Richmond Terrace

Terminate the (S66) at either Renwick Avenue/Milford Drive, Schmidts Lane/Manor Road, or Bradley Avenue/South Gannon Avenue

 

The (S62)/(S92)/(S93) would run frequently on Victory Blvd for former (S61)/(S91) customers. The (S62)/(S92) would be operated with articulated buses to prevent them from being overcrowded, and the savings would be reinvested either in expanding service elsewhere in Staten Island ((S40)/(S90) extension to Newark Airport, new West Shore bus line, or (S55) extension to the Perth Amboy NJT station), or in the routes involved ((running the (S54) and (S66) on weekends, extending the (S93) to Mariners' Harbor, the West Shore Plaza, or Port Richmond, or running more frequent service on the lines involved)

 

The funny thing is that, if the (S66) were routed this way, it would barely resemble the old (S66).

 

The routing to Bradley Avenue would be as follows:

 

WB: Bay Street-Victory Blvd-Louis Street-Howard Avenue-Arlo Road-Stratford Avenue-Howard Avenue-Clove Road-Little Clove Road-Victory Blvd-Slosson Avenue-North Gannon Avenue-Bradley Avenue

 

EB: South Gannon Avenue-Manor Road-Schmidts Lane-Slosson Avenue-Victory Blvd-Little Clove Road-Renwick Avenue-Milford Drive-Clove Road-Howard Avenue-Louis Street-Victory Blvd-Bay Street.

 

This would help serve some former (S61) customers on Bradley Avenue (they would only be served by the (S54)/(S57)), as well as the Todt Hill Houses on Manor Road, as well as Petrides when it dips back down to Milford Drive.

 

Come to think about it, if it were extended to Bradley Avenue, it would only be a 5 minute drive to the College of Staten Island, and it would be able to serve everybody along Gannon Avenue, and indirectly serve some former (S61) customers in Willowbrook. I don't know if this would compete too much with the (S62) and X10, though.