Staten Island Division: 2010 and beyond

[B35 via Church]

I have not read this entire thread, but has anyone suggested extending a local route across the Goethals to Elizabeth, and another acorss the Outerbridge to South Amboy NJT stations? To go by public transit from say Tottenville to Perth Amboy, almost waking distance, (which you cannot do on Outerbridge) would take an unbelievably long and convoluted time.

I think there was a ferry connection way back (untill bridge opened in early '30's?).

 

....from what I skimmed through, someone made a suggestion/mention of having an S40 variant go across the Goethals to newark - penn (which I think is a little far-fetched); having that route end at Newark airport would more than suffice IMO (while still serving that Ikea, toys r us out there in elizabeth)....

 

I always thought a route should exist between SIRR Tottenville & either woodbridge mall and/or (NJT) metropark station.... the question is, who would be responsible for operating it....

[Shortline Bus]

....from what I skimmed through, someone made a suggestion/mention of having an S40 variant go across the Goethals to newark - penn (which I think is a little far-fetched); having that route end at Newark airport would more than suffice IMO (while still serving that Ikea, toys r us out there in elizabeth)....

 

I always thought a route should exist between SIRR Tottenville & either woodbridge mall and/or (NJT) metropark station.... the question is, who would be responsible for operating it....

 

Speaking frankly, I read in the SI Advance for years now even online in which readers reguarly write letters in the OP-ED section complaining about the traffic. The 3 'hot spots' they always whine about is the SI Expressway, Goethals and Outerbridge Crossing. As someone of you already know those areas often now get more traffic jams on Friday Evening (To NJ) and Sunday Evenings(From NJ) than the traditional Monday-Friday Rush hour.

Problem is that just like in Long Island and New Jersey, most SI Car Owners only want to use mass transit to get to/from work mainly in Manhattan and not any other time. They flat out love their cars.

 

IMO running a 7-day bus line between Newark Airport/Elizabeth (it would have to connect to a (NJT)station for it to work )and SI via Goethals Bridge is a no brainer, that should have started at least 5 years ago. Especially since there are plans to soon start construction on a new Bridge to replace the Goethals.

 

On the other hand a bus line over the Outerbridge is more of a risk since a majority of those drivers are more likely to go 'long distance' as far south as Atlantic City via the GSP and via the NJ Turnpike to Philly, Wilimington, Del/Maryland and points south.

I think as B35 suggested a route between Eligntville TC and Woodbridge Mall/Metro Park makes the most sense and we shall call it a day from that point. For service to the NJ shore maybe create a summer holiday only special between Seaside Heights/Toms River and SI.

 

Just my takes.

[traildriver]

In most interstate operations, the carrier that goes the furthest within its state is usually the operator. Or the carrier that comes from the state where most of the passengers are from. Exceptions for operating convenience, of course. Like NJT being paid by MTA to operate all the way to Port Jervis. OR MN being paid by Ct. to operate in that state.

Or NYC Bus running "closed doors" through NJ from SI express to Manhattan for faster service than through Brooklyn.

[traildriver]

Even if the SI NYC Bus just crossed the bridges to the first NJT train or bus connection, it would at least allow passengers to connect with NJT services to reach all other points in NJ and beyond, without having to go through Manhattan first. The only one available now is over the Bayonne bridge, and that is still too long a route if you want to go south or west.

[checkmatechamp13]

That was the logic in extending the S55 to Perth Amboy-it connects with the North Jersey Coast Line to points south, like the Jersey Shore. The problem is that relatively few people would use that connection to travel to other places-the express bus is $5.50 to Manhattan compared with the North Jersey Coast Line, which costs $9.50.

As far as the S40 goes, the problem is that the fare is $6.75 from Elizabeth to Penn Station-more expensive than the $5.50 express bus and still giving up a one-seat ride. Of course, the train doesn't get stuck in traffic in the Lincoln Tunnel, but I doubt most people would pay extra to take a train that provides a 10 minute time savings at most.

The more promising one of these is the S40 extension-a lot of SI travelers use Newark Airport, so there is a larger market. Also, with a simple transfer to the #62 bus, travelers can go to points further north from Newark Penn Station. I don't really think a lot of people would go to points further south from Staten Island, at least by public transportation.

[S78 via Hylan]

Here's some new ideas:

 

I think the S94 makes way too many stops along it's route. It should make limited stops between St. George Ferry Terminal and Richmond Av/Forest Av like the S48/S98.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think the S81, S84 and S86 are useless and should be canned, as having rode all three of these routes myself. They may get crowded, but only until a few stops and then they have very little people on them or even sometimes empty.

[Bill444616]

to the person that was asking about the fair box's if thay could change from express to local. The answer is yes all the driver needs to do is punch in the local code. If a boarding on the local route a passenger needs a transfer the box can despence a paper transfer. To those that suggested the the 3x be eliminated that can not be done or the 4x 7x and the 8x the 3x serves starts over by the back of the wtc and so does the 4x. the 8x starts under the Brooklyn bridge and services that part of the downtown area.Which is a heavy route. The 1x during rush hours is a heavy route and the weekends and evening times as well. with the 3x and 4x thay only hit Broadway at park place. even by then there are no seats available as well as standing room only. the 6x and the 7x provide relief for the 1x and i think their hours should be extended to at least 9 pm service into S.I. cancellation of the s79 from the back of the mall is not a solution. the s79 services the elmwood park houses as well as part of housing development on the north side of the mall. The s54 is not only used by the Wagner kids but also the seaview nursing home as well as Egbert nursing home and all the other nursing home along manor rd. The aides and nurses uses that bus to connect to the buses on forest and casleton ave's as well as the s76,s78 and the s79.

[checkmatechamp13]

Here's some new ideas:

 

I think the S94 makes way too many stops along it's route. It should make limited stops between St. George Ferry Terminal and Richmond Av/Forest Av like the S48/S98.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think the S81, S84 and S86 are useless and should be canned, as having rode all three of these routes myself. They may get crowded, but only until a few stops and then they have very little people on them or even sometimes empty.

 

This seems like a good idea. Limited stops could be at Post Avenue/Port Richmond Avenue, Walker Street/Trantor Place, and Morningstar Road/Walker Street.

Whenever I see the S94 at Forest Avenue/Richmond Avenue when there are 2 S94s leaving simultaneously, the first bus is always overcrowded and the second bus has 2 or 3 people. If the S44 were extended, it could probably replace the second S94 (most regular riders realize that the S94 really doesn't save much more than 2-3 minutes than the S44).

 

to the person that was asking about the fair box's if thay could change from express to local. The answer is yes all the driver needs to do is punch in the local code. If a boarding on the local route a passenger needs a transfer the box can despence a paper transfer. To those that suggested the the 3x be eliminated that can not be done or the 4x 7x and the 8x the 3x serves starts over by the back of the wtc and so does the 4x. the 8x starts under the Brooklyn bridge and services that part of the downtown area.Which is a heavy route. The 1x during rush hours is a heavy route and the weekends and evening times as well. with the 3x and 4x thay only hit Broadway at park place. even by then there are no seats available as well as standing room only. the 6x and the 7x provide relief for the 1x and i think their hours should be extended to at least 9 pm service into S.I. cancellation of the s79 from the back of the mall is not a solution. the s79 services the elmwood park houses as well as part of housing development on the north side of the mall. The s54 is not only used by the Wagner kids but also the seaview nursing home as well as Egbert nursing home and all the other nursing home along manor rd. The aides and nurses uses that bus to connect to the buses on forest and casleton ave's as well as the s76,s78 and the s79.

 

Thanks for the information on the fareboxes. I would just like to point out a few things:

As far as the X3 being eliminated, there are replacements at all of the stops:

The X9 serves the World Financial Center and the X1 serves the stops along Broadway. The X4 provides backup to those 2 routes (it also serves Hylan Blvd between Midland Avenue and Ebbitts Street)

I don't think anybody here was suggesting eliminating the X8.

The person who suggested ending the S79 at the Yukon Depot was only suggesting doing that late nights if the S79 received overnight service.

As far as the S54 goes, a good portion of the route is covered by the S57. Students at Susan Wagner High School can walk over to Bradley Avenue for the S57, so they can at least access the North Shore buses (S40, S44, S46, and S48). The same applies for Sea View Hospital visitors in both directions (the S57 connects with the S74, S76, S78, and S79). I would have no problem keeping the S54 on weekends if people actually rode it. Only 1,100 passengers rode it on weekends with a cost per passenger of $7.57, one of the highest in the system.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

It'll be interesting to see if the Charleston Bus Annex will improve bus service on Staten Island at all when it finally opens.

 

Knowing the MTA & given their track record on SI, I can't help but be cynical & skeptical.

[checkmatechamp13]

As of now, it probably won't improve service on Staten Island. It will, however, allow them to save some money by having buses terminate closer to their depot (the S74, S78, and X22 won't have to relay halfway across Staten Island to leave the bus at the depot)

In the future, however, more buses will be needed, as Staten Island is the fastest growing borough in NYC (percentage-wise). So, like it or not, the MTA will have to add those extra buses, if nothing else to meet the demand.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

As of now, it probably won't improve service on Staten Island. It will, however, allow them to save some money by having buses terminate closer to their depot (the S74, S78, and X22 won't have to relay halfway across Staten Island to leave the bus at the depot)

 

 

As well as some, maybe all, 55s & 59s.

 

CBA could also house articulateds if they're ever used in Staten Island.

[checkmatechamp13]

I forgot about the S55. It terminates conveniently near 2 depots (Yukon and Charleston). The S59 only makes sense out of Charleston for those rush hour runs to Tottenville. Geographically, the best depot is probably Castleton, since it terminates in Port Richmond.

 

The problem with articulated buses in the South Shore is that those routes don't tend to get crowded until they get into the Park Hill area. Better candidates for articulated buses are the S46/S96, and S48/S98, if Castleton could be equipped to handle them (and Meredith if they move the S46/S96 there). The turns for some of those routes get pretty tight in some areas particularly in the western portion of the routes, but I'm sure those problems can be fixed (either make cars stop further back or widen a portion of the intersection).

[checkmatechamp13]

I have another idea-if the Fresh Kills Park ever opens up, the S56 could be extended down Richmond Hill Road and go through the park (Richmond Hill Road would be extended to connect with the West Shore Expressway).

 

If the North Shore and West Shore Rail Lines were built, I would build them like this:

 

North Shore Line: North Shore ROW-West Shore Expressway-Pleasant Plains.

Stops are at: St George, New Brighton, Livingston, West New Brighton, Port Richmond, Elm Park, Mariners' Harbor, Arlington, Bloomfield-Teleport, Travis-Fresh Kills Park, Arthur Kill Road, Sharrotts Road, Pleasant Plains.

 

West Shore Line: HBLR Bayonne Branch-Route 440-Victory Blvd-Richmond Avenue-Eltingville Transit Center

Stops are at: 8th Street, then Elm Park, Forest Avenue, Bulls Head-Richmond Avenue-Rockland Avenue-Staten Island Mall-Eltingville Transit Center.

 

The S56 would help passengers coming from the New Springville area looking to get to the Staten Island Ferry quickly by connecting to the North Shore Rail at Travis.

An extended S93 would serve customers from the neighborhoods east of the Bloomfield station looking to get to the Staten Island Ferry quickly.

All of the other stations are self-explanatory.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

I have another idea-if the Fresh Kills Park ever opens up, the S56 could be extended down Richmond Hill Road and go through the park (Richmond Hill Road would be extended to connect with the West Shore Expressway).

 

If the North Shore and West Shore Rail Lines were built, I would build them like this:

 

North Shore Line: North Shore ROW-West Shore Expressway-Pleasant Plains.

Stops are at: St George, New Brighton, Livingston, West New Brighton, Port Richmond, Elm Park, Mariners' Harbor, Arlington, Bloomfield-Teleport, Travis-Fresh Kills Park, Arthur Kill Road, Sharrotts Road, Pleasant Plains.

 

West Shore Line: HBLR Bayonne Branch-Route 440-Victory Blvd-Richmond Avenue-Eltingville Transit Center

Stops are at: 8th Street, then Elm Park, Forest Avenue, Bulls Head-Richmond Avenue-Rockland Avenue-Staten Island Mall-Eltingville Transit Center.

 

The S56 would help passengers coming from the New Springville area looking to get to the Staten Island Ferry quickly by connecting to the North Shore Rail at Travis.

 

An extended S93 would serve customers from the neighborhoods east of the Bloomfield station looking to get to the Staten Island Ferry quickly.

 

All of the other stations are self-explanatory.

 

:cool:

 

As Siskel & Ebert would say:

 

:tup::tup:

 

What you describe here would be really cool & awesome. It would be like what they have in Los Angeles County.

[checkmatechamp13]

I found some maps online (http://www.metro.net/around/maps/) showing the system, and, it looks kind of like a system where the bus system kind of fills in the gap between train lines (I guess that theme is present in all 5 boroughs as well, in the form of crosstown buses).

 

I find that the problem with little crosstown service is more acute on the South Shore. The S74 and S78 parallel the SIR, and the only real "gap fillers" are the S59/S79/S89 (the S54/S55/S56 don't run frequently enough to count). Of course, the key is to get people to get rid of their second car in the South Shore, so the buses become more cost-efficient to run.

 

Statistically, the percentage of autoless households is higher in areas near rapid transit (heavy rail or light rail lines) than in areas near buses. This study should be interesting: http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPA_tomorrows_transit.pdf . The problem is that the South Shore really doesn't have the density to support a lot of transit, and, therefore, the number of 2-car households is high.

 

If you see this map (I don't know why Annadale is missing), you see the number of cars available in apartments and houses, as well as the number of people who commute by transit (and other things like income and population density): http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Staten-Island-Staten-Island-NY.html. Just scroll down on the menu and click on the census tract to find the information.

[checkmatechamp13]

I have a question:

 

Is it possible to find the cost-efficiency of the S89 and S93 routes? They were listed with the S53 and S59, but it would be interesting to see how the ridership breaks down.

 

If it costs $70 per hour to run a bus, I figure that the S89 makes 39 runs throughout the day. If those runs take 50 minutes apiece, and there is 10 minutes of layover time at the terminal, that is 39 hours * $70 per hour = $2, 730 for the day. If there are about 920 passengers throughout the day, that is about $2.97 per passenger.

 

If the S93 makes 52 trips per day, and each trip takes about 40 minutes, plus 10 minutes of layover, that is about 44 hours * $70 per hour = about $3,080 for the day. If there are 1,310 passengers throughout the day, that is about $2.35 per passenger.

 

If 8 trips in the AM and 7 trips in the PM have to relay between Bayonne and the Yukon Depot, that 15 minute trip costs $17.50. Multiply that by 15 and you get $262.50.

 

If 6 trips in the AM and 6 trips in the PM have to relay between Eltingville and the Yukon Depot, that 8 minute trip costs $9.33. Multiply that by 12 and you get $111.96.

 

$262.50+$111.96+=$2730=$3,104.46

Divide that by 920 passengers and you get $3.37 when you include the deadhead time.

 

If 6 trips in the AM and 6 trips in the PM have to relay between Castleton and CSI, that 7 minute trip costs $8.17. Multiply that by 12 and you get $98.04.

 

If 6 trips in the AM and 6 trips in the PM have to relay between Bay Ridge and Castleton, that 20 minute trip costs $23.33. Multiply that by 12 and you get $279.96.

 

$98.04+$279.96+$3,080=$3,458.

Divide that by 1,310 passengers and you get $2.64 when you include the deadhead time.

 

Do those numbers sound right or am I completely off?

[Santa Fe via Willow]

^ Brings me back to 1998 when I was trying to figure out how much it would cost to build a Page Ave SIR Station, right under the overpass. The actual price, sans labor & all that stuff. I remember thinking about the cost of concrete & the quantity as well other materials. I forget my progress now:(

 

What kind of gas do MTA buses take? How much gas money are hybrids saving the MTA & other TAs?

 

Makes me wonder:

 

Let's say I started privately operated SI/Jersey Shore (Sandy Hook, Sea Bright & Long Branch) and SI/Great Adventure bus routes. Reliable & customer service friendly. Like flying First Class on the ground.

 

How much should I charge per person per ride?

 

$10.00?

 

$15.00?

 

$20.00?

 

What about those few times when someone's riding one way? Either coming or going? Charge them $19.25? $19.00 even? $9.25? $9.00 even?

 

Bus company'd be called Joe Bob's BeachCoaster Express.

[checkmatechamp13]

^ Brings me back to 1998 when I was trying to figure out how much it would cost to build a Page Ave SIR Station, right under the overpass. The actual price, sans labor & all that stuff. I remember thinking about the cost of concrete & the quantity as well other materials. I forget my progress now:(

 

What kind of gas do MTA buses take? How much gas money are hybrids saving the MTA & other TAs?

 

Makes me wonder:

 

Let's say I started privately operated SI/Jersey Shore (Sandy Hook, Sea Bright & Long Branch) and SI/Great Adventure bus routes. Reliable & customer service friendly. Like flying First Class on the ground.

 

How much should I charge per person per ride?

 

$10.00?

 

$15.00?

 

$20.00?

 

What about those few times when someone's riding one way? Either coming or going? Charge them $19.25? $19.00 even? $9.25? $9.00 even?

 

Bus company'd be called Joe Bob's BeachCoaster Express.

 

I think they take some kind of low-sulfur gas. I remember an article that said that one of their suppliers was raising their prices from 20 cents a gallon to 70 cents a gallon (this was a couple of years ago). I believe hybrids get 3.4 miles to the gallon compared with regular buses, which get 2.5 miles to the gallon.

 

As far as your bus routes go, all I can say is that the #308 bus costs $25.50 from Newark to Six Flags, so about $20 round trip seems fair enough. I just can't see people going one-way. Think about it: That place is in the middle of nowhere. If you come by car, you're not going to leave your car there, and if you come by bus, your only option is to get home by bus (unless you plan on hitchhiking back).

 

The only thing would be, maybe for the Jersey Shore routes, you get commuters who take a bus into Staten Island (if they work at a place where they could go to Manhattan for the train or to whereever your route would leave them off) and then come back by the North Jersey Coast Line.

 

Maybe you could negotiate discounts with Six Flags and the beaches on the Jersey Shore, to attract people looking for a bargain (you have to think-generally, those long trips are cheaper by car, especially if you have multiple passengers). You could say something to the effect of: For $20 round trip, you save on parking, gas, and tolls.

[SIR North Shore]

So here's a full list of changes I would like to see happen.

 

1: Combine the (S54) and (S42) via Henderson Avenue. This gives West Brighton riders like myself another option to reach the ferry and New Brighton/Tompkinsville besides the crowded S46. This new (S54) route would only run on weekdays only. This would essentially take two useless routes that were both at risk for elimination and create one useful route.

 

2: Give the (S44) the hawk runs it deserves. There are entire neighborhoods that have absolutely no transit access once the (S44) stops running. Even if it only runs to Forest/Richmond, that's good enough.

 

3: (S40), (S90) or (S98) to Elizabeth NJT for connectivity reasons. As of now, if you want to reach New Jersey and points south & west, you must first take the ferry into Manhattan and NJT is a lot more expensive out of NY Penn rather than Elizabeth. This route should run 7 days a week but not all day.

 

4: Run the (S89) once an hour during midday.

 

5: A proper (S53) limited that makes limited stops along the current S53 route to speed things up.

 

6: Extend the (S56) to Perth Amboy NJT.

 

7: Re-route the (S74) to stop at Bricktowne, because there's no civilization along Arthur Kill Road at that point.

[checkmatechamp13]

Replies in bold.

 

So here's a full list of changes I would like to see happen.

 

1: Combine the (S54) and (S42) via Henderson Avenue. This gives West Brighton riders like myself another option to reach the ferry and New Brighton/Tompkinsville besides the crowded S46. This new (S54) route would only run on weekdays only. This would essentially take two useless routes that were both at risk for elimination and create one useful route.

 

That was one of my ideas. Hopefully, people in West Brighton would be willing to take the S54, since it would loop around New Brighton, instead of the S46, which runs straight down Castleton Avenue. Also, the S54 runs every 30 minutes, half as frequently as the S46. If this worked, that would take off a lot of riders from the S46 that get on at Castleton Avenue/Broadway. (Of course, this can only be a temporary fix until the North Shore Rail Line comes). Also, since routes that serve the ferry tend to be more efficient, the S54 would give riders on Manor Road direct access to the ferry.

 

2: Give the (S44) the hawk runs it deserves. There are entire neighborhoods that have absolutely no transit access once the (S44) stops running. Even if it only runs to Forest/Richmond, that's good enough.

 

I don't think that is neccessary. The S40, S46, and S48 pretty much cover the whole North Shore at night. If anything, it should be the S59 that runs 24/7

 

3: (S40), (S90) or (S98) to Elizabeth NJT for connectivity reasons. As of now, if you want to reach New Jersey and points south & west, you must first take the ferry into Manhattan and NJT is a lot more expensive out of NY Penn rather than Elizabeth. This route should run 7 days a week but not all day.

 

I don't think it is neccessary to extend the S98 over there. The S40/S90 should provide enough service to meet the demand.

 

4: Run the (S89) once an hour during midday.

 

That and the S93

 

5: A proper (S53) limited that makes limited stops along the current S53 route to speed things up.

 

6: Extend the (S56) to Perth Amboy NJT.

 

The S55 would be a better candidate, as the Arthur Kill Correctional Facility is near the Outerbridge

 

7: Re-route the (S74) to stop at Bricktowne, because there's no civilization along Arthur Kill Road at that point.

 

Agreed

 

[S78 via Hylan]

As for the (S89) and (S93), they are excellent ideas, but I'm not sure if there is enough demand for these routes to run all day.

[LRG]

So here's a full list of changes I would like to see happen.

 

1: Combine the (S54) and (S42) via Henderson Avenue. This gives West Brighton riders like myself another option to reach the ferry and New Brighton/Tompkinsville besides the crowded S46. This new (S54) route would only run on weekdays only. This would essentially take two useless routes that were both at risk for elimination and create one useful route.

 

Good idea.

 

2: Give the (S44) the hawk runs it deserves. There are entire neighborhoods that have absolutely no transit access once the (S44) stops running. Even if it only runs to Forest/Richmond, that's good enough.

 

I have to disagree on this. The S44 shares Richmond Terrace with the S40 up to Lafayette and runs just about adjacent with the S46.

 

3: (S40), (S90) or (S98) to Elizabeth NJT for connectivity reasons. As of now, if you want to reach New Jersey and points south & west, you must first take the ferry into Manhattan and NJT is a lot more expensive out of NY Penn rather than Elizabeth. This route should run 7 days a week but not all day.

 

4: Run the (S89) once an hour during midday.

 

5: A proper (S53) limited that makes limited stops along the current S53 route to speed things up.

 

6: Extend the (S56) to Perth Amboy NJT.

 

7: Re-route the (S74) to stop at Bricktowne, because there's no civilization along Arthur Kill Road at that point.

 

These I don't have any opinion on, but where exactly is Bricktowne?

[checkmatechamp13]

I think the idea is to cover the Richmond Avenue portion, not the North Shore portion.

 

Bricktowne is just north of the Outerbridge Crossing, about 5 or 6 blocks east of Arthur Kill Road.

[SIR North Shore]

I'm a S44 rider myself and I can definitely tell you the ridership is there for hawk runs. Overnight, the S40 and S46 are packed from the front to back, SRO.

 

Also, don't let the Staten Island bus map fool you, the distances between Richmond Terrace, Henderson & Castleton is a lot longer than the official MTA map would have you think. There are actually entire neighborhoods without transit access when the S44 stops running but the map makes it seem like the S46 and S40 are close by which they are NOT.

[checkmatechamp13]

I still disagree. I've walked from Castleton Avenue to Richmond Terrace and the walk isn't ridiculously long. According to Google Transit, it is about 16 minutes, which is about 4/5 of a mile along Bard Avenue, which seems about right. Also, nobody would be even be walking the full distance because they would either be walking from Richmond Terrace to Henderson Avenue, or Castleton Avenue to Henderson Avenue. Also, the Elm Park/Mariners' Harbor neighborhood survives with 3 bus lines at all times.

 

The more pressing issue is the lack of bus service along Richmond Avenue. There is really no way to get from the North Shore to the South Shore without going all the way to St. George and back.