The 3rd Avenue EL

[uptown164]

Why didn't they just keep the 3rd Av EL and now we are building a subway under 2nd Av (for the 100th time lol) just seems like ironic to me

[Eric B]

The city was in a rush to get rid of els. The merchants probably had a lot to do with it too.

They figures the new subway was coming soon, and didn't count on it being delayed like this.

[Gorgor]

Plus els are disgusting, noisy, and a huge eye sore.

[INDman]

Plus els are disgusting, noisy, and a huge eye sore.

 

But they are necessary. Try replacing all the IRT Els in the Bronx or the BMT Els in Brooklyn or the in Queens with subways. It will never happen.

[Dan05979]

But they are necessary. Try replacing all the IRT Els in the Bronx or the BMT Els in Brooklyn or the in Queens with subways. It will never happen.

 

It could happen in this day and age, it would make one hell of a mess though.

[INDman]

It could happen in this day and age, it would make one hell of a mess though.

 

I don't think the city or feds would fund it and there really is no reason for it.

[Jashawn R.]

My dad used to live by the 200th Street Station on the (8). His room was at eye level with the tracks!

[Dan05979]

I don't think the city or feds would fund it and there really is no reason for it.

 

I'm sure there would be tons of red tape, but I mean it physically can be done with a couple of shovels and laborers. But I understand.

[INDman]

I'm sure there would be tons of red tape, but I mean it physically can be done with a couple of shovels and laborers. But I understand.

 

Oh yea, it can certainly be done just like Boston's "Big Dig: just a hell of a lot bigger.

[Roadcruiser1]

I don't find elevated lines ugly, disgusting, or rotten. I actually like them. I like it when a train is running high above everything and everyone. I also like the noises that come from them. Although sometimes I am upset that they had removed the Second and Third Avenue Elevated can't handle any of the train cars that we have today. They won't be able to handle an R62/A. They would have had required severe retrofitting. Another thing was what the others pointed out. They and the real estate developers thought the El was noisy and was ruining property value. The Second Avenue El went first. It was taken down in 1940 for the World War 2 effort. The steel was going to be made into weapons, planes, and ships. The Third Avenue El went second in 1955. People like Robert Moses complained that it was noisy, that people could just use the Lexington Avenue Line , , and , and they were convinced that it would be replaced. Though the Manhattan section was taken down first. That section ran from 125th St to South Ferry. The other section in Bronx which was labeled the (8) was taken down in 1977. The section ran from Gun Hill Road to 149th St-3rd Avenue. In reality though a car was proposed for the remaining section of 3rd Avenue. It was going to be called the R39. It never got built because the found out it was cheaper to get rid of the remaining sections of elevated lines.

 

Some pictures:

 

 

The Bronx section of the Third Avenue El.

 

 

All the elevated lines including Third and Second Avenue.

 

 

Second and Third Avenue El map.

 

 

 

Third Avenue Elevated.

 

 

 

Second Avenue Elevated.

 

 

Second Avenue Subway.

[uptown164]

It could happen in this day and age, it would make one hell of a mess though.

 

lets see the try it starting with westchester av and then white plains road and see how far it goes lol

[metsfan]

Long island's geology would be a severe hinderance to a tunnel replacement of trestle run lines.

 

- A

[EE Broadway Local]

I think The Bronx's topography would be also. The is entirely elevated; the is elevated from Third Avenue; the is elevated from 161st Street; the is elevated from Third Avenue and the does have a nice subway run, not becoming elevated until Whitlock Avenue. Only the are entirely underground.

 

I think Brooklyn is second behind Manhattan in subway length.

[Ceya]

The city was in a rush to get rid of els. The merchants probably had a lot to do with it too.

They figures the new subway was coming soon, and didn't count on it being delayed like this.

 

 

Merchants is one of the reason for the J train EL in Jamaica destruction.

 

They lost because people took their business to Hillside ave where the INDs were located.

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[KGTeleport]

I have often wondered whether it was just those three-track street-darkening els that so irritated the merchants and whether the els could have survived largely intact if the express tracks had been sacrificed. I even made an Elevated Division fantasy map playing with that hypothesis.

[CenSin]

I have often wondered whether it was just those three-track street-darkening els that so irritated the merchants and whether the els could have survived largely intact if the express tracks had been sacrificed. I even made an Elevated Division fantasy map playing with that hypothesis.

What makes you think removing a track will placate the merchants? As long as trains are running, making noise, and blotting out the sun, the number of tracks on the structure won't matter.

[Eric B]

Cool map! (I too thought about the possibility of connecting the BRT system with the Manhattan els).

But it's true that removing the middle track would not have made much difference. Even with a bit more light in the middle of the street, it overall still casts too much of a dark noisy shadow over the thoroughfare (including the sidewalks, where the stores and residences are).

 

Since those lines on this map all end where the subways took over the route, then we could imagine them having been replaced with monorail type guideways, which can be really thin.

[Roadcruiser1]

That map kind of reminded me of the Chicago El's. Imagine what would have happen if we had kept them. Then New York would have had some taste of Chicago here too. Also it would have had helped people living on the far West and East Side of Manhattan. I sometimes wished they were still here intact and running. There is another cool thing about your map. If it came true trains would still be crossing the Brooklyn Bridge to get to the Elevated Lines in Manhattan.

 

PS KGTeleport I posted the map for you just in case.

 

[KGTeleport]

What makes you think removing a track will placate the merchants? As long as trains are running, making noise, and blotting out the sun, the number of tracks on the structure won't matter.

 

It was actually set off by one of those ridiculous discussions about adding a third track to the Jamaica El. Naturally someone responded that this would make the street beneath substantially worse (and presumably turn Woodhaven into Broadway after the riots ). So I took the inverse of this ever-so-slightly absurd argument and stretched it way too far as a bit of an experiment in nostalgia crossed with futurism.

 

PS KGTeleport I posted the map for you just in case.

 

Thanks. I was trying not to hijack someone else's thread with yet more fantasy maps!

 

That map kind of reminded me of the Chicago El's.

 

That was the look I was trying to achieve! Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[EE Broadway Local]

That map kind of reminded me of the Chicago El's.

PS KGTeleport I posted the map for you just in case.

 

 

Cool Map, KGTeleport! :tup: It, too. also reminds me of the Chicago El Map.

[GojiMet86]

I have often wondered whether it was just those three-track street-darkening els that so irritated the merchants and whether the els could have survived largely intact if the express tracks had been sacrificed. I even made an Elevated Division fantasy map playing with that hypothesis.

 

Heh, I once tried to make a fictional Brooklyn elevated system, but I lost interest in it. It was more of a track map, actually.

[KGTeleport]

Heh, I once tried to make a fictional Brooklyn elevated system, but I lost interest in it. It was more of a track map, actually.

 

Well, it's always nice to see a work in progress. There are various things that make the Brooklyn els difficult:

- too many lines fed into the Myrtle side of Sands Street: it must have been amazing to see it at its height, with Myrtle, Lexington, 3rd Av, Culver, West End, and Sea Beach trains all on the same pair of tracks

- it was a horrendous mistake to build Myrtle/Grand at grade, rather than at two levels like Myrtle/Broadway: Park Av was doomed from this point on

- Lexington Av was over a bit of a random street: it's really really odd it didn't run over Gates instead

- the 5th-3rd Av Line lost most of its ridership once the 4th Av subway opened

- even if Fulton St hadn't been undermined by the IND, it had a lot of stations, weird service patterns, and wasn't exactly a speed demon

- the "what if the Centre Street loop had been completed" what-if results in routes that turn back on each other: I once (years and years ago) drew a joke map with the extended over the Brooklyn Bridge and Myrtle Av El to Metropolitan Av and the (Mx) extended over the Brooklyn Bridge and Lexington Av El to Jamaica.

 

Unfortunately, the IND in Brooklyn is a whole new awfulness. It doesn't interchange very well with anything else, and one cannot help but feel that a Myrtle Av El to Park Row would be more use than a Lafayette Av Subway to Church/McDonald Avs. It is actually quite tempting to draw a Brooklyn fantasy map with "what if there weren't any existing lines" as the premise.

[105th St KK QJ JJ J]

Here's a pic of the Bronx section of the 3rd avenue EL in 1971. :cool:

 

[bxtransit1155]

Here's a pic of the Bronx section of the 3rd avenue EL in 1971. :cool:

 

 

That's a great pic. I've always been interested in this line because prior to being reduced to a shuttle line, there was a station on my block (E 143 St-3 Av), it would have been great to see it open when the Patterson Houses were built.

[Ceya]

IRT service patterns in the 1920s and 1930s?

 

Check out the topic post above, i posted a cool site a gentleman put up about the 2nd, 3rd and other Els trains.

 

Awesome Pics!

 

S/F,

CEYA!