Fare Beater Policy Express Bus vs Local Bus

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Fare-beating is a big problem on Staten Island, but it's more of an issue of the local buses than the express buses. I've wondered about this because I've heard drivers say that they're only supposed to state the fare if a person gets on and doesn't pay. However, it seems like B/Os on the express bus lines tend to be a bit more adamant about making sure that passengers pay where are fare-beaters appear to be less likely to be stopped when they don't pay on the local bus. I could be wrong, but this has been my observation... I'd like to know if there is any truth to this observation?

[SevenEleven]

Homie, this shit is basic:

 

If you're riding the express bus, it obviously means you know the [premium] fare. You should definitely know that the majority of riders either have enough money on their Metrocards to pay for the bus or is using that express bus unlimited. There's no way in hell farebeaters look to express buses for free rides, because its not happening...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Homie, this shit is basic:

 

If you're riding the express bus, it obviously means you know the [premium] fare. You should definitely know that the majority of riders either have enough money on their Metrocards to pay for the bus or is using that express bus unlimited. There's no way in hell farebeaters look to express buses for free rides, because its not happening...

 

The reason I asked is because when someone doesn't pay on the express bus and walks and sits down, I've witnessed a few drivers literally stop the bus and indicate that he's not moving until that person comes and pays. Meanwhile on local buses this rarely if ever happens and the B/Os could care less what the riders story is. They just wave them on and keep on going. So is there a different level on "enforecement" when it comes to the express bus vs the local bus? Just curious.

[B35 via Church]

ok, here, I'll cut you some slack... b/c you do raise a point here...

 

It may come down to the individual attitudes of a lot of b/o's.... let's face it, locals make more stops, goes through more lower than middle class neighborhoods, and quite frankly, deal w/ more people on any given day/run....

 

you'll find w/ express buses, the vast majority of pax, are people that loyally take a particular route.... so much so that they develop a sort of a bond, having conversations about life or w/e... there's just not that time/space on a local bus... not sure how to fully explain it...

 

That said, it's more difficult to try to slyly beat the fare on an express bus b/c there's only that 1 door on an MCI....

 

In english, you're predisposed to more variables from people on a local bus... hence the likeliness of a b/o even bothering to remind a passenger to pay the fare... I wouldn't use the term adamant, but I think they re-state the fare, b/c you do have some people that run & hop on a bus b/c "it's there"...

 

instead of saying "this is an express bus, and (I know) this isn't the bus you want"...

they simply state the fare... people will catch the drift when you say "5.50"

 

fi' dollas for a ride, ufck that....

lol...

[checkmatechamp13]

I think part of it is based on the attitudes of the driver as a result of driving a route that goes through low-crime, middle- to high-income areas.

 

a) They know that most of the people who try to farebeat on an express bus aren't likely to be violent

They know that the people whose time/comfort is valuable enough that they would take an express bus to Manhattan instead of the local bus/subway are going to make sure they have the money for the express bus.

c) The point of public transportation is to serve the public-if they don't have money, they should still have a way of transport-that form of transport doesn't have to be the most convenient, though (all express routes run within walking distance of a local route that eventually connects with a service that takes you to Manhattan).

d) On an express bus, the farebeater is taking a seat that would otherwise go to a paying customer.

e) Express buses cost a lot more per passenger to operate than a local bus. The average local bus cost $1.44 per passenger to operate, while the average express bus cost $8.64 per passenger to operate (prior to June 27th). The MTA just wouldn't give away its most expensive service to a person when they can use one of their cheaper services.

 

NOTE: Some of these points are directly related to each other.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think part of it is based on the attitudes of the driver as a result of driving a route that goes through low-crime, middle- to high-income areas.

 

a) They know that most of the people who try to farebeat on an express bus aren't likely to be violent

They know that the people whose time/comfort is valuable enough that they would take an express bus to Manhattan instead of the local bus/subway are going to make sure they have the money for the express bus.

c) The point of public transportation is to serve the public-if they don't have money, they should still have a way of transport-that form of transport doesn't have to be the most convenient, though (all express routes run within walking distance of a local route that eventually connects with a service that takes you to Manhattan).

d) On an express bus, the farebeater is taking a seat that would otherwise go to a paying customer.

e) Express buses cost a lot more per passenger to operate than a local bus. The average local bus cost $1.44 per passenger to operate, while the average express bus cost $8.64 per passenger to operate (prior to June 27th). The MTA just wouldn't give away its most expensive service to a person when they can use one of their cheaper services.

 

NOTE: Some of these points are directly related to each other.

 

I agree with both of you 100%. @B35 - I do wonder about what you said about the MTA not giving away one of their most expensive services... My question is if B/Os are told to be more strict about letting fare beaters go on the express bus as opposed to the local buses?

[checkmatechamp13]

Considering that people who consider farebeating on the express buses is so low, I don't think it really matters, but I think the same rule applies as for local buses-the bus operator is required to inform the person of the required fare and take no further action. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Usually, if somebody dips in a MetroCard with a partial fare on it, the bus driver will let them go. Very rarely will they actually let a person get on for nothing (like I said, they feel comfortable enough that the person won't pull out a weapon against them)

[Noflexdont]

As a bus operator we are told to say is "the fare is X.XX". For the most part the guys that are driving the express buses have many years on the job and feel that your taking from there pocket if you dont pay the full fare. As far as the local goes i say what i have to and wave them on. Now if everytime i deal with you and you dont have your fare that a different story. i dont mind helping someone in a tough situation but dont abuse my kindness. Remember people are always watching us and how we interact with others. I had a guy come up to me at the end of my trip (was on the B52) say i seen you wave 5 people on the bus with out paying, Why am i spending $89 a month. He was really pissed off.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Considering that people who consider farebeating on the express buses is so low, I don't think it really matters, but I think the same rule applies as for local buses-the bus operator is required to inform the person of the required fare and take no further action. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Usually, if somebody dips in a MetroCard with a partial fare on it, the bus driver will let them go. Very rarely will they actually let a person get on for nothing (like I said, they feel comfortable enough that the person won't pull out a weapon against them)

 

The way I see it B/Os shouldn't even have to deal with any fare issues. They should just allowed to do what they're paid to do, which is DRIVE. In Italy, the B/Os drive and they let fare inspectors take care of the fare beaters. Now I know they have a similar system on the SBS lines, but from what I heard about the BX12 SBS, fare evasion is high, but the MTA again tries to downplay the issue. Think about it though... The more you raise the fare the more people are not going to pay, so at some point you can't keep sweeping it under the rug. In the end the only real losers are the paying passengers because we continue to pay while the fare-beaters continue to get off scotch free.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As a bus operator we are told to say is "the fare is X.XX". For the most part the guys that are driving the express buses have many years on the job and feel that your taking from there pocket if you dont pay the full fare. As far as the local goes i say what i have to and wave them on. Now if everytime i deal with you and you dont have your fare that a different story. i dont mind helping someone in a tough situation but dont abuse my kindness. Remember people are always watching us and how we interact with others. I had a guy come up to me at the end of my trip (was on the B52) say i seen you wave 5 people on the bus with out paying, Why am i spending $89 a month. He was really pissed off.

 

And can you fault him? In my opinion this is another example of where the MTA should be clamping down. Enforcing the fare is not the B/Os job but the MTA's job. If they're going to cry broke but then sit back and have no problem losing millions in fare evasion, what sort of message are you sending to the paying public??? The more you raise fares, those who do pay will become increasing angry over the MTA's inaction to do nothing about the problem and then cut service on top of it.

[checkmatechamp13]

To be honest, I think the local buses/subways should be free for everybody. All of the time and costs associated with fare collection would be eliminated, and there would be a real incentive to use mass transit. (Though the extensive network has led to NYC having the highest percentage of autoless households in the USA-55%)

 

That is why I supported congestion pricing-it could be used to boost service and lower (or eliminate) fares, depending on how high the toll is and what times it is implemented.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

To be honest, I think the local buses/subways should be free for everybody. All of the time and costs associated with fare collection would be eliminated, and there would be a real incentive to use mass transit. (Though the extensive network has led to NYC having the highest percentage of autoless households in the USA-55%)

 

That is why I supported congestion pricing-it could be used to boost service and lower (or eliminate) fares, depending on how high the toll is and what times it is implemented.

 

With the amount of taxes the MTA gets from us, if they were more efficient the fares could be lower, but not free. That would mean that the state and city would have to actually allot their fare share and now allocate those funds to other things, which they often do. In Europe the fares are reasonable and service is pretty efficient, especially in the Northern, and Western Europe in places like Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, but the citizens pay a lot in taxes.

 

I also supported congestion pricing because I think transportation is the way to go. Nevertheless our system isn't free here and if you continue to have a lax stance on fare evasion, he problem will become worse over time because people will think that they can just get on without paying without any consequences.

[Lennyj17]

The one primary reason fare evasion is low on the Express buses is low is because of the Single front door MCI's....

 

If we were still using RTSs and O5's on Express Routes the fare evasion be higher than the MCI's but probably still lower than the Locals..

 

Fare evasion on the Locals wouldn't be as high if Drivers learned to Shut the friggin Back Doors right after the last person exited....A lot of local drivers leave the Rear Doors hanging open until their ready to pull off..It just screams "ENTER" especially when its a ridiculously long line waiting to board.

[jmazz77]

Fare evasion on the Locals wouldn't be as high if Drivers learned to Shut the friggin Back Doors right after the last person exited....A lot of local drivers leave the Rear Doors hanging open until their ready to pull off..It just screams "ENTER" especially when its a ridiculously long line waiting to board.

 

 

I agree. But 9 times out of 10, as soon as that rear door opens, there is someone there to hold it and hop on. Even if you move the control to close the door, it doesn't matter if someone is there holding it. It's a slow-operating mechanism that operates the rear door. And to be honest, half the people exit through the front door anyway so they might as well get rid of the back door.

[B35 via Church]

The one primary reason fare evasion is low on the Express buses is low is because of the Single front door MCI's....

 

If we were still using RTSs and O5's on Express Routes the fare evasion be higher than the MCI's but probably still lower than the Locals..

 

Fare evasion on the Locals wouldn't be as high if Drivers learned to Shut the friggin Back Doors right after the last person exited....A lot of local drivers leave the Rear Doors hanging open until their ready to pull off..It just screams "ENTER" especially when its a ridiculously long line waiting to board.

 

I know what you're trying to say; (you'd think) the probability of fare beating would be higher, just by the simple fact of there being the back door....

 

But I'll tell you what, take this FWIW, but out of all the express buses I've been on where O5's were still being ran on em at the time (BM1-5, Qm1, Qm2/a, Qm3), I have never seen someone try to hop the back of the bus... and I'm talking about somewhere b/w 100-200 different rides... people aren't looking to fare beat express buses... your average person could care less for the express bus b/c of what areas they deem the buses travel through (the rich areas; can't stand when people say that btw), and two, the "type" of people, in accordance to the fare of the bus itself...

 

also to note, when people are boarding express buses in manhattan in the PM (and in it's respective outerborough in the AM), no one's getting off buses at these times... so the back door never opens, for someone to have the chance to board through the back...

 

 

little story:

I had an acquaintance (wadn't really a friend) that lives in canarsie... he asked me one day, how do you get home... I say sometimes I take the (, sometimes I take a bus... he was like, you live in brooklyn, there's no bus that goes from manhattan back to brooklyn... I said "the express bus"... he goes "those big tall buses w/ the tinted windows", I laugh & said yeah...

 

then he went off on a tirade talking about those buses aint for nzzzzzz's, those are for the rich white man, it's like 10.00 a ride.... I'm like dude, the bus I take ends in CANARSIE... I forgot what he said exactly, but it was like a yeah right type of response... told him to wait for about 5 minutes...

 

he saw me board on that BM2 (he thought I was bluffing & wadn't gonna get on)... I was like, later yo, and that was that.... saw him the next day @ work, and I basically told him the riderbase of that route - middle aged black women (which is what it still is)... still didn't believe me, and at that point, I was like w/e...

 

The point is, the route runs right in his own backyard, but yet, it's for the rich white man (why he gotta be white, that's another thing) @ 10 bucks a ride.. when (at the time), it was exactly half that....

[B35 via Church]

To be honest, I think the local buses/subways should be free for everybody. All of the time and costs associated with fare collection would be eliminated, and there would be a real incentive to use mass transit. (Though the extensive network has led to NYC having the highest percentage of autoless households in the USA-55%)

 

That is why I supported congestion pricing-it could be used to boost service and lower (or eliminate) fares, depending on how high the toll is and what times it is implemented.

 

Even though such a service would be for the people 100%....

VERY high ridership, no reward (well, other than customer satisfaction, but intangibles don't matter for squat these days)...

hmm, I'd hate to be the transportation provider for that company !

 

Yes, in a perfect world, public transportation should be free, and said provider would have scrooge mcduck money....

 

But as I'm sure you realize, that's just not realistic....

 

 

I agree. But 9 times out of 10, as soon as that rear door opens, there is someone there to hold it and hop on. Even if you move the control to close the door, it doesn't matter if someone is there holding it. It's a slow-operating mechanism that operates the rear door. And to be honest, half the people exit through the front door anyway so they might as well get rid of the back door.

 

you aint never lied...

 

I'm even guilty of exiting through the front at times...

 

as far as the holding of the back doors, you'll almost always see this at the SB B46 stop on utica/eastern pkwy & the EB B35 stop on church/nostrand... well both the routes period are notorious for fare beating.... I see people (already on the bus) holding the doors open for someone to sneak through... which I never quite understood; like, why am I helping you get on for free when I, myself paid 2.25 to get on this mothafu**a.....

[checkmatechamp13]

Public transportation is a public service funded by the taxpayers already. Fares only cover something like 50% of the operating costs anyway-the rest is covered by a combination of tolls, taxes, and other things like advertising.

 

We get police, fire, and sanitation services fully funded by taxpayers, so why not mass transit?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I know what you're trying to say; (you'd think) the probability of fare beating would be higher, just by the simple fact of there being the back door....

 

But I'll tell you what, take this FWIW, but out of all the express buses I've been on where O5's were still being ran on em at the time (BM1-5, Qm1, Qm2/a, Qm3), I have never seen someone try to hop the back of the bus... and I'm talking about somewhere b/w 100-200 different rides... people aren't looking to fare beat express buses... your average person could care less for the express bus b/c of what areas they deem the buses travel through (the rich areas; can't stand when people say that btw), and two, the "type" of people, in accordance to the fare of the bus itself...

 

also to note, when people are boarding express buses in manhattan in the PM (and in it's respective outerborough in the AM), no one's getting off buses at these times... so the back door never opens, for someone to have the chance to board through the back...

 

 

little story:

I had an acquaintance (wadn't really a friend) that lives in canarsie... he asked me one day, how do you get home... I say sometimes I take the (, sometimes I take a bus... he was like, you live in brooklyn, there's no bus that goes from manhattan back to brooklyn... I said "the express bus"... he goes "those big tall buses w/ the tinted windows", I laugh & said yeah...

 

then he went off on a tirade talking about those buses aint for nzzzzzz's, those are for the rich white man, it's like 10.00 a ride.... I'm like dude, the bus I take ends in CANARSIE... I forgot what he said exactly, but it was like a yeah right type of response... told him to wait for about 5 minutes...

 

he saw me board on that BM2 (he thought I was bluffing & wadn't gonna get on)... I was like, later yo, and that was that.... saw him the next day @ work, and I basically told him the riderbase of that route - middle aged black women (which is what it still is)... still didn't believe me, and at that point, I was like w/e...

 

The point is, the route runs right in his own backyard, but yet, it's for the rich white man (why he gotta be white, that's another thing) @ 10 bucks a ride.. when (at the time), it was exactly half that....

 

Canarsie is a relatively suburban area that wasn't always black. It was mainly white, with a high % of Italians living there and when blacks started moving in so began the white flight. If you look at most express bus routes excluding a few in Queens and the Bronx (i.e. BXM7) they end up in predominately suburban neighborhoods, and whites tend to live in the suburbs while minorities live in urban areas. I'm of a mixed background, but mainly Italian and I have to admit that the it was strange the one time I jumped on the BM2 accidentally (the BM3 was a no show and I thought that the BM2 also took Ocean Ave down so far like the BM1/BM4 buses) to be on an express bus w/predominately black riders because living in the areas that I've lived and currently live in, the majority is usually white. On Staten Island for example the local buses are used mainly by minorities, with some whites, but especially during certain times of the day and the express buses I'd say are 85 - 90% white.

[B35 via Church]

Canarsie is a relatively suburban area that wasn't always black. It was mainly white, with a high % of Italians living there and when blacks started moving in so began the white flight. If you look at most express bus routes excluding a few in Queens and the Bronx (i.e. BXM7) they end up in predominately suburban neighborhoods, and whites tend to live in the suburbs while minorities live in urban areas. I'm of a mixed background, but mainly Italian and I have to admit that the it was strange the one time I jumped on the BM2 accidentally (the BM3 was a no show and I thought that the BM2 also took Ocean Ave down so far like the BM1/BM4 buses) to be on an express bus w/predominately black riders because living in the areas that I've lived and currently live in, the majority is usually white. On Staten Island for example the local buses are used mainly by minorities, with some whites, but especially during certain times of the day and the express buses I'd say are 85 - 90% white.

 

What point does he have? That canarsie was mainly white "back then"....

He wasn't referring to no back then... It was a general (triggered, IMO) response...

He didn't even know about the route, but yet he says he takes the B103 to the

(with which the BM2 parallels the B103...)

 

There was nothing but ignorance being spewed out of him that day... what I typed in that post is the doctored up version of events out of his mouth; less the racial slurs & a few more expletives....

 

So you really actually agree w/ someone that claims that express buses are for the rich white man.... believe what you will, but there are no "rich" areas in the 5 boroughs, and there sure as hell aint no whites only signs around & about the buses....

 

You let someone keep talking and eventually they'll hang themselves.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What point does he have?

That canarsie was mainly white "back then"?

He wasn't referring to no back then... He didn't even know about the route !

 

There was nothing but ignorance being spewed out of him... what I typed in that post is the doctored up version of events out of his mouth...

 

So you really actually agree w/ someone that claims that express buses are for the rich white man.... believe what you will, but there are no "rich" areas in the 5 boroughs....

 

You let someone keep talking and eventually they'll hang themselves.

 

Express bus riders aren't necessarily rich. Take me for example... I'm a young middle class guy. I'm by no means rich, but I do alright, but I know what you're getting at about what he said. The perception in NYC is that if you can afford $11.00 a day for transportation then you must be earning a decent salary because when you compare $11.00 a day to $4.50 cents it's more than double in cost. I buy the 7 day express bus card which is about $180 - 225 a month depending on the amount of weeks in the month, then I factor in my expense for car service during the weekends and late nights from the express bus and that's about $340 - 400 a month compared to a monthly local pass, which I don't even know the cost of, but I know it costs less than a $100.00 at the moment, so you're talking a difference that's triple or quadruple, so yeah, I can understand what he is saying, BUT I know what you're saying. His comments were quite ignorant because he's insinuating that blacks don't ride the express bus as if they don't earn enough to ride it when some of them actually do and can afford to ride it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What point does he have? That canarsie was mainly white "back then"....

He wasn't referring to no back then... It was a general (triggered, IMO) response...

He didn't even know about the route, but yet he says he takes the B103 to the

(with which the BM2 parallels the B103...)

 

There was nothing but ignorance being spewed out of him that day... what I typed in that post is the doctored up version of events out of his mouth; less the racial slurs & a few more expletives....

 

So you really actually agree w/ someone that claims that express buses are for the rich white man.... believe what you will, but there are no "rich" areas in the 5 boroughs, and there sure as hell aint no whites only signs around & about the buses....

 

You let someone keep talking and eventually they'll hang themselves.

 

There are plenty of rich areas in NYC, and certainly plenty of rich areas on Staten Island. There's parts of Randall Manor, Todt Hill, Emerson Hill and Grymes Hill. Todt Hill has plenty of multimillion dollar homes and I see plenty of Maserati cars up around Todt Hill. Manhattan has the Upper East Side, Yorkville, the Upper West Side, parts of Downtown and plenty of other ritsy areas. 5th Ave is the richest street in the world. The Bronx has Riverdale. Brooklyn has parts of Bay Ridge along Shore Road with million dollar houses, as well as Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. I don't know about Queens, but I'm sure the areas out towards Long Island are pretty well to do, so I think you should re-think that comment.

[B35 via Church]

There are plenty of rich areas in NYC, and certainly plent of rich areas on Staten Island. There's parts of Randall Manor, Todt Hill, Emerson Hill and Grymes Hill. Todt Hill has plenty of multimillion dollar homes and I see plenty of Maserati cars up around Todt Hill. Manhattan has the Upper East Side, Yorkville, the Upper West Side, parts of Downtown and plenty of other ritsy areas. 5th Ave is the richest street in the world. The Bronx has Riverdale. Brooklyn has parts of Bay Ridge along Shore Road with million dollar houses, as well as Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. I don't know about Queens, but I'm sure the areas out towards Long Island are pretty well to do, so I think you should re-think that comment.

 

While I don't know about the avg. incomes per household of Randall manor & Todt/Emerson/Grymes hills'....

 

All the other areas you listed, I don't consider to be rich (especially the areas in Brooklyn w/ which you state).... at all...

Wealthy areas over most others in NYC, yes... but not rich... I don't use those two terms interchangably... they're just not the same to me....

 

the strip along 5th av with which you refer to, is predominantly commercial....

 

So there's nothing to re-think... We just have different ideas of what constitutes being rich....

 

 

Furthermore, if I wanted to be snooty about it... I'd say out of all those areas you just listed, only Riverdale, Yorkville, & Bay Ridge are served by express buses like that.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While I don't know about the avg. incomes per household of Randall manor & Todt/Emerson/Grymes hills'....

 

All the other areas you listed, I don't consider to be rich (especially the areas in Brooklyn w/ which you state).... at all...

Wealthy areas over most others in NYC, yes... but not rich... I don't use those two terms interchangably... they're just not the same to me....

 

the strip along 5th av with which you refer to, is predominantly commercial....

 

So there's nothing to re-think... We just have different ideas of what constitutes being rich....

 

 

Furthermore, if I wanted to be snooty about it... I'd say out of all those areas you just listed, only Riverdale, Yorkville, & Bay Ridge are served by express buses like that.....

 

Yeah, clearly we have different ideas of rich. I guess Todt Hill isn't rich despite the fact that people like John Franco from NY Mets lived there. And no the Upper East Side isn't rich either despite the fact that it has some of richest real estate in the world.

[B35 via Church]

Yeah, clearly we have different ideas of rich. I guess Todt Hill isn't rich despite the fact that people like John Franco from NY Mets lived there. And no the Upper East Side isn't rich either despite the fact that it has some of richest real estate in the world.

Yeh...

 

I define my level of rich, not through what some athlete made....

If I struck it rich, I tell you one thing... I would not reside anywhere in NYC...

 

Bay Ridge & Park slope... middle class areas being rich... LMFAO....

 

If you can't discern wealth vs riches, then that isn't my problem.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeh...

 

I define my level of rich, not through what some athlete made....

If I struck it rich, I tell you one thing... I would not reside anywhere in NYC...

 

Bay Ridge & Park slope... middle class areas being rich... LMFAO....

 

If you can't discern wealth vs riches, then that isn't my problem.

 

I'm saying SOME parts of those areas are very well to do. Of course most parts of those areas are middle class. I thought you understood that, but I guess not.