Second Avenue subway question

[Gun Hill Road]

I'm new here, so maybe this has been covered already. If so, forgive me.

 

So let's assume the Second Avenue subway is built. As of right now, it's just two tracks. Seems to me that will be obsolete by the time it's opened. Every other trunk line in NYC is four tracks, doubling capacity. Manhattan's density requires this.

 

Sure, they ran out of money, did what is possible, etc. Does anyone know if there are provisions for future 4-tracking the line? Seems to me that they could make provisions for a tunnel beneath this one, like on 6th avenue between W. 4th and 34th. One of the hassles of construction of the line has been moving utility lines and so forth to create access to the surface. A lower tunnel would need only access the upper tunnel, and only at express stations. Has anyone thought of this? Or are there more issues than $$$?

[IRT Bronx Express]

Nothing can be said at this time until the SAS is actually built and ready for revenue service, which won't happen for many years to come.

[Roadcruiser1]

It's only going to be a two tracked line from 125th Street to Hanover Square, but there isn't need for express service, because the stations are place at the same location as express stations on such a line should be. The main problem is since it's going to be 2 tracked if a problem occurs on the line a section of the line, or the whole line would shut down. It would be similar to the Canarise Line. Take a trip on the Canarsie Line someday and you would find out how Second Avenue , might work in the future.

 

This is proof that it's only going to be two tracked.

The picture above is the future 96th Street Station. Notice the tunnel portals and the station layout. It's only wide enough for 2 tracks.

 

Here is the Second Avenue Subway map itself

A two tracked line between 125th Street, and Hanover Square.

 

Since you might like to know the Sixth Avenue Line is a example of a subway line that was originally built on a 2 track configuration. They widened it to four.

[Shortline Bus]

I'm new here, so maybe this has been covered already. If so, forgive me.

 

So let's assume the Second Avenue subway is built. As of right now, it's just two tracks. Seems to me that will be obsolete by the time it's opened. Every other trunk line in NYC is four tracks, doubling capacity. Manhattan's density requires this.

 

Sure, they ran out of money, did what is possible, etc. Does anyone know if there are provisions for future 4-tracking the line? Seems to me that they could make provisions for a tunnel beneath this one, like on 6th avenue between W. 4th and 34th. One of the hassles of construction of the line has been moving utility lines and so forth to create access to the surface. A lower tunnel would need only access the upper tunnel, and only at express stations. Has anyone thought of this? Or are there more issues than $$$?

 

Welcome aboard. On the SAS i think the other guys pretty much answered and gave reasons on why the second ave subway is only 2-tracked. Not to mention being delayed and projected to open at the earliest around 2016-17.

Personally I think only the portion to 96th St/2nd Ave. will be finished in our lifetime.

[R32 3348]

Only Phase I will definitely be two-tracked. Phases 2-4 have not been worked on yet with no funding dedications, so there is nothing binding them to be two-tracked as well. For all we know they could all be built with four tracks (Phase II's existing tunnels could have more added - this is all hypothetical anyway). Either way it will be a marked improvement over the East Side's current transportation options. I agree though that any provision to expand it to a four-track line should be considered if and when the time for expansion into other boroughs comes, for capacity reasons.

[TheArr]

The budget says 2 tracks for now, up to 96 street. I'm really doubting the MTA's ability to raise enough money to construct the SAS to phase 4, let alone express tracks or expansion to the bronx or brooklyn. On the other hand, the distance between stops isn't nearly as high as most other lines, so it probably won't be nearly as bad as something like taking the from 125 st to city hall.

[Jamaica Express]

Well if you look at the other lines in the system that don't really connect to other lines, they also are two tracked (examples are the ) Many lines have express tracks so they can take on extra trains, it would be sort of redundant to have all 4 tracks stop at all stations since some routes are longer than others.

 

If you look at the way the IND was built, its kind of obvious that express tracks were built so the lines could carry more trains.

 

Being that the 2nd Ave Line will probably never reach the Bronx or Brooklyn, the only lines using it will be the & one day the . Since its an entirely new line, Im sure the signal system will be able to handle both on just 2 tracks. It will probably be all CBTC by the time the other phases open anyway.

[asidrane]

Is the line going to be built with a lot of switches between the two tracks? That's the only way that the line will work well. Otherwise when a train breaks down along the route, the line will be in big trouble.

[Roadcruiser1]

Once again the Canarsie Line is the best example of this. When a problem occurs on that two tracked line they would shut a section of the line down.

[asidrane]

Once again the Canarsie Line is the best example of this. When a problem occurs on that two tracked line they would shut a section of the line down.

 

The Canarsie line is over 80 years old. Over this period there haven't been improvements in the way to set up and operate a two track line in order to avoid the problems seen on the ?

[Roadcruiser1]

There has. They added more switches, but still you would have delays, and sometimes if it includes both tracks a shut down.

[EE Broadway Local]

If we get to Phase III and Phase IV, the Second Avenue Subway will have some nice spacing in Midtown - 86th Street to 72d Street; 72d Street to 55th Street; 55th Street to 42d Street.

 

It looks like overall, the sixteen stations are being spaced with none less than a half-mile apart.

 

By comparison, the makes twenty stops between Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall and 125th Street (six between Grand Central-42d Street and 86th Street).

[MikeGerald]

Many subway transit lines across the country, and in other parts of the world consist of just two track systems, for example the Toronto Subway, the Montreal subway, among many others. Only a few have "express tracks" let alone "express trains" running during most of the operating hours.

 

It helps to keep that in mind when talking about the Second Avenue Subway, and the originally planned extensions to Queens.

 

Is it that there's some kind of love for "express trains", and "express tracks"?

 

Mike

[Fresh Pond]

Many subway transit lines across the country, and in other parts of the world consist of just two track systems, for example the Toronto Subway, the Montreal subway, among many others. Only a few have "express tracks" let alone "express trains" running during most of the operating hours.

 

It helps to keep that in mind when talking about the Second Avenue Subway, and the originally planned extensions to Queens.

 

Is it that there's some kind of love for "express trains", and "express tracks"?

 

Mike

 

It gives people the impression that they're getting to their destination faster when in most cases it doesnt

[Guest lance25]

Personally, I don't care if Second Avenue has express service, primarily because the stations are so far apart. However, history has proven that here in New York, two track lines are not good for flexibility. Unless the line has reverse signaling, once something happens (and we all know it will), the line will be shut down.

[Mark 1]

We'll be lucky to get Phase 1 by the new projected completion date, being the end of the decade. On express service, people need to realize express tracks are there for capacity/flexibility and not necessarily for speeding up commute times, even though it is a benefit.

 

Even though building the line for 4 tracks sounds good, having a 2 track line with less stops is just as effective minus any kind of service disruption.

[TriboroughBridge]

I'm new here, so maybe this has been covered already. If so, forgive me.

 

So let's assume the Second Avenue subway is built. As of right now, it's just two tracks. Seems to me that will be obsolete by the time it's opened. Every other trunk line in NYC is four tracks, doubling capacity. Manhattan's density requires this.

 

The Nassau st line, Flushing line & 14 st line dont have 4 tracks for express service.

[Roadcruiser1]

Exactly there isn't even the money to build Second Avenue in the first place. The whole reason why this subway is even under construction was to alleviate the Lexington Avenue Line , , . Plus there isn't any future plans to extend the , elsewhere. If the time far in the future not in most of our lifetimes calls for it more stations could be built on the current Second Avenue Line to make it perfectly local, and a new level underneath the current tracks could be dug for express service, and maybe even farther into the future not in our lifetimes Second Avenue could have 2 local, and 2 express services like the other existing Sixth, and Eighth Avenue Lines running into the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn.

 

To tell you guys the truth the originally proposed Second Avenue Subway from 1929 from the IND Second System plan was to include six tracks 2 local tracks, 2 express tracks, and 2 super express tracks. The depression brought it to a quick end.

[Law]

To tell you guys the truth the originally proposed Second Avenue Subway from 1929 from the IND Second System plan was to include six tracks 2 local tracks, 2 express tracks, and 2 super express tracks. The depression brought it to a quick end.

 

They should have made it WPA project, it would had been built.

[Roadcruiser1]

I thought of that too, but Robert Moses the car/highway buff would have had never allowed it. He took advantage of the depression by building pools, highways, and roads.

[CenSin]

I'd be content if they just had bell mouths to a lower level to provision for extra tracks.

[Roadcruiser1]

Actually the real proposal as of currently is a two tracked line from 125th Street to Hanover Square. Any idea to add express tracks in a tunnel below the existing tracks or widening the current tunnel would take a long time to take to come, but it did happen before. As an example the current Lexington Avenue Line was only a 2 tracked line when it was opened so was Sixth Avenue.

 

Here is a track map of the current SAS:

 

Also I will quote below from the NY Times from 1929 the original proposed Second Avenue Subway.

Second Avenue Subway: From Pine and Water Sts, via Water St., Pearl St., New Bowery, Chrystie St., Second Ave. 2 tracks to Chambers St., 4 tracks to 61st St., 6 tracks to 125th St., 4 tracks to the Harlem river, with connection to Bronx lines.

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/indsecond.html

http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/2ndave.html

[R32 3348]

Actually the real proposal as of currently is a two tracked line from 125th Street to Hanover Square. Any idea to add express tracks in a tunnel below the existing tracks or widening the current tunnel would take a long time to take to come, but it did happen before. As an example the current Lexington Avenue Line was only a 2 tracked line when it was opened so was Sixth Avenue.

 

Here is a track map of the current SAS:

 

Also I will quote below from the NY Times from 1929 the original proposed Second Avenue Subway.

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/indsecond.html

http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/2ndave.html

That is not the current track plan. Since that rendition, changes have been made to the design of Phase I so that it is entirely two-tracked. The track plans for the other phases are just as subject to change.

[Donald]

Personally, I don't care if Second Avenue has express service, primarily because the stations are so far apart. However, history has proven that here in New York, two track lines are not good for flexibility. Unless the line has reverse signaling, once something happens (and we all know it will), the line will be shut down.

 

 

I guarantee you there will be at least 1 major shutdown/ delay within the first month of the SAS opening. I guarantee it.

[Jamaica Express]

I guarantee you there will be at least 1 major shutdown/ delay within the first month of the SAS opening. I guarantee it.

 

well delays happen everyday...and incidents happen on the daily basis that call for the temporary suspension of service. It happens. Not just on 2nd Ave or in NY, but on most large systems.....