TML Posted January 5, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 5, 2011 Ever since the MTA decided to eliminate weekend service on this branch, I've been thinking about the long-term future of this branch. Shortly after weekend service was officially discontinued, there was an article in Newsday which mentioned how some residents were viewing those cuts as a precursor to closing the entire line altogether. After some research, I've come up with some possible reasons behind this line's low ridership: -Sporadic service frequencies (as much as two hours between trains) -Necessity of transferring at Valley Stream on many trips -Single-track operation from Valley Stream to Hempstead Gardens -Proximity to nearby bus/train service (N15, N31/32, Babylon/Montauk Branches). -Slow speed of branch modernization (compared to other branches) With that said, I've been wondering: Is this line going to be shut down altogether in a few years? If not, will service ever be expanded beyond current levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 5, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 5, 2011 its only off peak that you need to change at valley stream. Its hard to say what is likely to happen, since this was one of the most drastic cuts the LIRR ever had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak7 Posted January 5, 2011 Share #3 Posted January 5, 2011 Ever since the MTA decided to eliminate weekend service on this branch, I've been thinking about the long-term future of this branch. Shortly after weekend service was officially discontinued, there was an article in Newsday which mentioned how some residents were viewing those cuts as a precursor to closing the entire line altogether. After some research, I've come up with some possible reasons behind this line's low ridership: -Sporadic service frequencies (as much as two hours between trains) -Necessity of transferring at Valley Stream on many trips -Single-track operation from Valley Stream to Hempstead Gardens -Proximity to nearby bus/train service (N15, N31/32, Babylon/Montauk Branches). -Slow speed of branch modernization (compared to other branches) With that said, I've been wondering: Is this line going to be shut down altogether in a few years? If not, will service ever be expanded beyond current levels? LIRR spent a bunch of money to install cab signalling on the branch, so it's staying (plus they never requested a PTC MTEA for it). The reason transfers are required and there are no off-peak through trains is the low ridership. They really should eliminate midday/late night service, as I doubt it's used much. Remember, outside of NYC, there's plenty of weekday peak-direction only commuter lines. (NJT High Bridge, Metra North Central Svc, MARC Camden/Brunswick, VRE Fredericksburg, etc.) And if LIB shuts down, ridership will rise. What I am afraid will die is Greenport service. The MTEA LIRR has requested for Main Line East is under the condition of "temporal separation", meaning physical means to prevent freight trains from operating except at certain times is necessary. If there were no year-round service at all, no MTEA need be requested, no signalling nor PTC need be installed, it could be transferred to NYA like the Bay Ridge Branch. Scary thought, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67thAve Posted January 6, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 6, 2011 Shorten trains to 4 cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 6, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 6, 2011 if it were up to me, 2 hour weekend headways and no overnight service (last train at 11pm or so) for the West Hempstead Branch. The LIRR Greenport Branch is really the kind of thing were a little bit of smart investment, could pay off, the "Suburbs" continue to sprawl outward and there's evidence that people from out east drive to ronkonkoma to take the train, so with the right level of service they could make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest Glen Posted January 6, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 6, 2011 The West Hempstead Branch is useless. The area it serves has a fairly reliable bus line (N15). The branch is sandwiched between the Babylon and Hempstead Branches. They should shut down the West Hempstead Branch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TML Posted January 6, 2011 Author Share #7 Posted January 6, 2011 if it were up to me, 2 hour weekend headways and no overnight service (last train at 11pm or so) for the West Hempstead Branch. I believe this was how weekend service was on this branch when it last existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 7, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 7, 2011 The West Hempstead Branch is useless. The area it serves has a fairly reliable bus line (N15). The branch is sandwiched between the Babylon and Hempstead Branches. They should shut down the West Hempstead Branch. it could be useful if the headways were better and they cut waste such as using shorter trains and use one conductor and one engineer per train. There are people out there that would rather take a train than a bus becuse the train is faster and more comfortable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemoreira81 Posted January 7, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 7, 2011 it could be useful if the headways were better and they cut waste such as using shorter trains and use one conductor and one engineer per train. There are people out there that would rather take a train than a bus becuse the train is faster and more comfortable The reason for running a longer train, however, is to prevent gapping out. I wonder if there are ever more than 2 open cars on these trains, perhaps as little as one. If it were up to me, however, if the line must be operated, service would run during the rush hours only on the WH; upgrading it seems like a waste of money. Customers could be told to use the N32 for Malverne and the N15 for the rest of the line. If you are going to need 3 transfers to get to Manhattan, you might as well drive or ride to the Babylon or Hempstead lines. The other thing hurting it is that the Hempstead Line is so close to it. Ideally, if I made the call, I would make this tough call and close the line and focus on electrification to Speonk and Yaphank, and double-platforming Patchogue, as requiring a change at Babylon for every Patchogue local is a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Up Front Posted January 7, 2011 Share #10 Posted January 7, 2011 I've seen as much as 5 cars on one train leading out of West Hempstead, all open - about 5 people were on the train combined, not including any of the train crew. That same train was also NOT a Valley Stream shuttle - it was headed for Atlantic Terminal. As for the service, I don't know - there are still people living along the Valley Stream-Malverne border that use the WH branch daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Express Posted January 7, 2011 Share #11 Posted January 7, 2011 Well according to the 2006 LIRR origin and destination study The AM & PM Peak Ridership averaged a total of 1,226 passengers for the entire line,this includes St.Albans Station (which saw an avg of 93 weekday boardings, 70 of them being during the AM Rush) the busiest station on the branch was Lakeview (493 boardings..421 during Rush Hrs) Midday Ridership was 168 passengers, with Lakeview seeing 64 boardings (again the busiest) and West Hempsted seeing 12(the lowest) Sat ridership was 186, and Sun was 125...none of these stations broke 50, except Malverne which saw 83 on Sat. With that being said, the most economical thing to do would be to make it a weekday rush hour only line (Peak Direction Only), however, Im sure there's political reasons that are preventing that from happening. As for making the EMU sets shorter than 6-cars, you generally try to stay away from that since the equipment manipulation can call for consists to be replaced and swapped with other sets, including trains to/from NY. and we all know anything shorter than 6-cars out of NY wouldn't be good. So 6-cars is an EMU minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest Glen Posted January 7, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 7, 2011 I think the 9:05 PM Babylon train from Penn Station carries more than 1,226 passengers. The West Hempstead Branch is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 7, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 7, 2011 using stations on teh hempstead branch isnt an option since all the nearby ones require village of garden city permits, and weekdays you need a valley stream permit to park in valley stream. Those areas are kinda nice neighborhoods, so telling them to go park in Hempstead is not gunna go over well. For what it is, a short line serving a few neighborhoods its tough to compare it to a main corridor like Babylon or Ronkonkoma, for that matter wahts Oyster Bay and Long Beach Branch's ridership? I could see weekend service working if it was more reliable and didnt require a transfer at valley stream, since you got people double transferring if they want penn station service. If they could do it and end it in Jamaica on weekends and middays and cut that second transfer, you might see more ridership if it appears more convienient to use. Given the choice between Long Island Bus or the LIRR to go the same place, id take LIRR over the bus any day, I can park at the station, wait on the platform, teh trains are faster and more comfortable, for the bus you have to wait on some street corner with no parking for your car and the bus is at the mercy of traffic and traffic lights. Think like a suburbanite, this is not New York city, most people drive on long island, they dont even use the bus, but they will use the LIRR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Express Posted January 7, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 7, 2011 I think the 9:05 PM Babylon train from Penn Station carries more than 1,226 passengers. The West Hempstead Branch is a joke. haha yea...well all commuter rail systems have their MONSTER busy lines and then their lighter routes. Look at NJT The Northeast Corridor Line sees 53,798 boardings a day While the Boonton Line (excluding Montclair stops which is a service in itself in a sense) 1,715 boardings, when the Montclair portion of the Boonton Line was electrified they could have easily killed the service Northwest of Montclair (Between Denville and MSU), bus service to these areas is robust, and the last train that is inbound departs Hackettstown (via Boonton) at 8:11AM. However, in the transit market once you have something instituted it is VERY VERY VERY hard to take it away. Closing Great Notch Station was in itself a fiasco. Other examples of this is Metra. BNSF Line sees 60,000 boardings a day Heritage Corridor sees 2,900 (which I think personally is pretty good for a line that only has 3 AM/PM Peak Only round trips) Look at the NYC Subway The Rockaway Park Branch, sees very very very little ridership, all of the least used stations in the system come from that Branch, yet it still operates. I know from the outside it looks real stupid and costly( and trust me..it IS costly) to operate these lines and keep them open, but more goes into it then just ridership, im not saying that doesn't play a big role, but there other factors and POLITICS are one of them. Simple, Short example there was an NJT Train that operated in the 1990's(before the days of Midtown Direct) called the Somerset Hills Express, it was an express from Hoboken to Gladstone, that made Newark Broad, then operated non-stop to Millington. It was a 4-car EMU set that carried roughly 20 ppl (give or take). The train was eliminated due to low ridership, however the executive director had a friend who lived in one of the towns it served and took that train home every day. After a complaint from that one person..the train was put back. Now do you think if that person wasn't buddy buddy with Ms.Shirley (NJT director back then) would that train have been restored?...probably not. Also people are more attracted to trains then buses....hence why we have lightrail systems that exist with a virtually non-existent fare recovery rate. A lot of it is making things look nice and pretty, even though no one is using it. Wayne-Route 23 Station is a perfect example, 85% if not more of those people are taking Buses from that park-n-ride station, NOT the train and NJT knew this when they built the complex, but why is there a platform for the lightly used, slow moving Boonton Line? because the tracks are there...and "options" are attractive, especially if its a train, even though only 1 out of 20 ppl are gonna use it. Now im not saying the WH Branch is pointless or trains are pointless, but the reality is, there are some areas in our region where bus service more frequent, faster and better....and when you have trains in the same area that are slow, and have little to no direct service to NY and sometimes more expensive...guess what? ppl are gonna go for the Bus. Transit isn't just rail & subways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 8, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 8, 2011 Ive ridden the West Hempstead branch once on a weekend, it was quite quick between stations. It was a mid afternoon train so ridership was pretty light at the last stop, Im hoping when things pick up and Albany kicks em back some more cash theyll reopen the line all the time. Ive heard that Greenpoint, Oyster Bay, and West Hempstead were planned to be closed completely many times before but yet they still are around for the most part today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 8, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 8, 2011 I could see weekend service working if it was more reliable and didnt require a transfer at valley stream, since you got people double transferring if they want penn station service. If they could do it and end it in Jamaica on weekends and middays and cut that second transfer, you might see more ridership if it appears more convienient to use. Given the choice between Long Island Bus or the LIRR to go the same place, id take LIRR over the bus any day, I can park at the station, wait on the platform, teh trains are faster and more comfortable, for the bus you have to wait on some street corner with no parking for your car and the bus is at the mercy of traffic and traffic lights. Think like a suburbanite, this is not New York city, most people drive on long island, they dont even use the bus, but they will use the LIRR. Any chance of West Hempstead 'weekend' service returning is not happening in the near future due to current budget crisis. If anything IMO the first service cuts that should be restored in order: 1)Overnight service to Atlantic Terminal(Flatbush)Brooklyn 2)1/2 Hour headways all day Monday-Saturday (until 9pm)on the Pt Washington, Babloyn and main line branches. Then we can discuss about restoring weekend West Hempstead. If weekend service returns it should be IMO Saturdays only running as a 'shuttle' between Jamaica and West Hempstead every 2 hours. I only been on the W. Hempstead line, a few times but based on ridership data and personal experience I don't think this line warrants Sunday service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 8, 2011 Share #17 Posted January 8, 2011 well what im saying is if they get their financial house in order and are able to spend more on service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKorean Posted January 8, 2011 Share #18 Posted January 8, 2011 if it were up to me, 2 hour weekend headways and no overnight service (last train at 11pm or so) for the West Hempstead Branch. The LIRR Greenport Branch is really the kind of thing were a little bit of smart investment, could pay off, the "Suburbs" continue to sprawl outward and there's evidence that people from out east drive to ronkonkoma to take the train, so with the right level of service they could make it work. They could do what Vancouver's West Coast Express do. 5 trains toward NY only during the morning peak hour and 5 trains towards Greenport only on evening peak hours. Express train of course, skipping 3/4 of all the stations in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 8, 2011 Share #19 Posted January 8, 2011 They could do what Vancouver's West Coast Express do. 5 trains toward NY only during the morning peak hour and 5 trains towards Greenport only on evening peak hours. Express train of course, skipping 3/4 of all the stations in between. There already 'through' or direct 1-seat service to both Brooklyn and Penn Station rush hours. With the connection to Grand Central ready around 2016, you send the West Hempstead trains to GCT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexis4Jersey Posted January 8, 2011 Share #20 Posted January 8, 2011 I think the LIRR should close the gaps in the system , which would allow for through trains on Hempstead Branch / Line , West Hempstead branch should be restored into the Hempstead line. The ROW is still intact and the NYSDOT owns it , be creating more through lines service increases and costs decrease slightly... If you have a blockage on the Main line , you can reroute trains onto other lines..... http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215312482559953359515.000496c9cdea77cff2ae1&ll=40.717339,-73.603592&spn=0.138435,0.308647&z=12&iwloc=000496ca1a2efe7d1c64d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 8, 2011 Share #21 Posted January 8, 2011 I think the LIRR should close the gaps in the system , which would allow for through trains on Hempstead Branch / Line , West Hempstead branch should be restored into the Hempstead line. The ROW is still intact and the NYSDOT owns it , be creating more through lines service increases and costs decrease slightly... If you have a blockage on the Main line , you can reroute trains onto other lines..... http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=215312482559953359515.000496c9cdea77cff2ae1&ll=40.717339,-73.603592&spn=0.138435,0.308647&z=12&iwloc=000496ca1a2efe7d1c64d It could work, they could have the trains run from Westwood to Atlantic Terminal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaica Express Posted January 8, 2011 Share #22 Posted January 8, 2011 Any service that operates on the West Hempstead Branch outside of Rush Hour is simply a pure Waste of Money. There is one direct train #905 which leaves West Hempstead at 7:36AM and gets to NYP at 8:29AM. I'd assume a PM trip may not be so unprofitbale if it makes Woodside or the other two Queens stops and has 2-3 connections to busy trains at Jamaica, but Im sure there are operational issues that probably prevent that plus ridership is much more spread out in the evening than in the morning. Weather a railroad is in good shape or not, some lines don't need service 24/7around the clock. Hence the term Commuter rail. Some lines are there just to get the 9-5 crowd to work and back. No one is going to waste money giving a slot to a train thats carrying 250 people. Amtrak charges both NJT and LIRR a pretty penny for slots, so if there are any additional openings during evening or morning rush hour I highly doubt it would go to the West Hempstead Branch. The Hempstead Branch is perfect the way it is, it has pretty decent direct NYP service during the AM & PM peak's then everything else goes to Atlantic Terminal, however if you look at the travel market along line's route...a significant amount of people are indeed headed to Brooklyn, especially from Hempstead Station. Like I said before no one has to worry about the Oyster Bay,West Hempstead or Greenport Lines completely closing, a lot of towns in LI have strong political power which will prevent this from happening. Service reductions are one thing, full line closures are another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m7zanr160s Posted January 11, 2011 Share #23 Posted January 11, 2011 Well according to the 2006 LIRR origin and destination study The AM & PM Peak Ridership averaged a total of 1,226 passengers for the entire line,this includes St.Albans Station (which saw an avg of 93 weekday boardings, 70 of them being during the AM Rush) the busiest station on the branch was Lakeview (493 boardings..421 during Rush Hrs) Midday Ridership was 168 passengers, with Lakeview seeing 64 boardings (again the busiest) and West Hempsted seeing 12(the lowest) Sat ridership was 186, and Sun was 125...none of these stations broke 50, except Malverne which saw 83 on Sat. With that being said, the most economical thing to do would be to make it a weekday rush hour only line (Peak Direction Only), however, Im sure there's political reasons that are preventing that from happening. As for making the EMU sets shorter than 6-cars, you generally try to stay away from that since the equipment manipulation can call for consists to be replaced and swapped with other sets, including trains to/from NY. and we all know anything shorter than 6-cars out of NY wouldn't be good. So 6-cars is an EMU minimum. I don't like how St. Albans is apart of the West Hempstead branch. IINM, no trains that go to West Hempstead even stop there. It should be apart of the Babylon Branch. Also, West Hempstead trains run past my building on the Far Rockaway branch. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbluefoxie Posted January 11, 2011 Share #24 Posted January 11, 2011 I don't like how St. Albans is apart of the West Hempstead branch. IINM, no trains that go to West Hempstead even stop there. It should be apart of the Babylon Branch. Also, West Hempstead trains run past my building on the Far Rockaway branch. :confused: i think it has more to do with its easier to put it that way on the timetable, Locust Manor, Laurelton, and Rosedale actually are Long Beach branch stops on weekends but its easier to stick em with Far Rockaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKorean Posted January 12, 2011 Share #25 Posted January 12, 2011 How about LIRR acquiring Gennies to run 90mph+ for the diesel sections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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