D Train Issue

['89 Liberty MCI]

Mike: I didn't realize these issues until I looked at the track maps. I see that there are no tracks to lay up on at West 4th. At 145th the only way to lay up, assuming you service 155th, is to stop on the S/B local track, get on the middle track south of the station, and then either get right on the N/B track or wait for the next train to leave 145th and then get over to the N/B track.

 

Also I had calculated that five shuttle trains would be needed to maintain a 10-minute headway for the shuttle. That means the trains would have a minimum of 6 minutes to rest at either end. The maximum rest period would probably not be much longer with a train getting ready to enter the station. This is probably not enough time to turn the train around south of 145th and change crews.

 

Then another option is to skip 155th Street and use the switches west of 161/River Av to get to/from the middle track so that the train is already on the middle track when it reaches 145th. The local has always skipped Hoyt Street in Brooklyn and that station is more heavily used than 155/8th Av so statistically it wouldn't be a big loss. I don't like inconveniencing people (especially since 155th is residential while Hoyt is in a shopping district) but there have to be some sacrifices to help the majority.

 

Too bad not much can be done about the Brooklyn shuttle. Getting it to a place where it can safely turn around, whether you send up Avenue of the Americas or (as I just started thinking) Broadway, means sending it to some station in midtown or better and there don't seem to be funds for that.

 

But operating costs aside, what if the last stop were 14th Street/8th Avenue and the trains laid up on the long middle track south of Penn Station (http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/pm_west_1.png)? The service would switch to the 8th Avenue express line at West 4th. I know it misses 23rd and 34th while running very close to them, but putting it on the local track would make the turnaround harder when there are already two local services on 8th Avenue.

 

Train Master: Can you elaborate on what you said about the Brooklyn shuttle?

[Princelex]

I've used the in the Bronx for years and I firmly believe that the needs more service AND the ( needs to be extended to Bedford Park Blvd on the weekdays. The is quite busy and the service has gotten bad in the last couple of years. Something has got to give with that line.

[Princelex]

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Anf for that rerason is why the ( isn't needed in the Bronx outside of rush hours. Its costs money to send those crews up there. What's the point of extending it when the Bx1 LTD/Bx2 LCL is directly upstairs

 

People coming from or going to Manhattan aren't thinking anything about the Bx1/Bx2 so the need is there for the the to go past 145th after rush hrs.

[Concourse Express]

Where to begin...

 

...first, let's clarify some things; pertaining to the PM rush period, the last via Concourse Express leaves 145 St at 6:41 PM, while the last ( to Bedford Park Blvd leaves 8 minutes later, at 6:49 PM. In my experiences (which are many, as a regular Concourse Line commuter for nearly 12 years and a casual rider for longer than that), this is insufficient. Deltas are on 10-min headways beginning with the second-to-last Concourse Express train, when significant rush-hour crowding still exists (these trains typically traverse Midtown around 6:00 PM or so). The Bronx-bound Bravos are on 10-min headways for all of the PM rush.

 

The crowding is much worse when the Yankees are in town; though the MTA will have all Concourse Exp trains stop at 161 for Yankee games, the rush hour period still ends at the aforementioned times. Subsequently, cats are often unable to board the first few post-rush trains at 125/145/155 as the resulting crowding is simply ridiculous (this is also the case during rush-hours also).

 

For a long time, I've stated on here, on SubChat, in emails to MTA, and most recently during the President's forum held last November at 2 Broadway, that PM rush Concourse service is in dire need of improvement. Interestingly enough, in that forum, one of the officials on the panel (not the President) responded with two comments: 1] Average weekday ridership levels at the Concourse Exp stations (205, Bedford, Kingsbridge, Fordham, Tremont, and to a lesser extent 145) and the Concourse Lcl stations were approximately equal, and 2] the majority of demand from both the Concourse Lcl and Exp stations is for express Manhattan service...(I have an idea for a possible solution to this problem, but I've no time since I have class in an hour; mayhap later this evening I'll append this part of my post.)

 

Second, what's with all these shuttle ideas? There is no reason whatsoever that the Concourse Line should be relegated to shuttle service at any time! If anything, the Concourse Line needs more weekend service, NOT less! Furthermore, I believe it unwise to suggest the overcrowded line as an alternate; we should be looking for ways to mitigate crowding on the overcrowded , not add to it. Also, all these "cut the Bx1/2 to here or there" ideas are similarly bad and do nothing to improve service.

 

Mi dos centavos.

[Princelex]

The idea of a shuttle is laughable. ( service needs to be the same except that it ALWAYS goes to BPB, thats all.

['89 Liberty MCI]

I was the original bearer of the shuttle ideas and cutting the Bx1/2.

 

The reason, which we should all probably respect, is that I, just like you, want to have the ( do its full route during all of its current operating hours (I want that full route 7 days a week), but others on the forum have said that the authority lacks the money to do so. That's why I brought up ideas about shuttles and cutting the Bx1/2.

 

The authority lacks operating revenue because it is handcuffed by multiple things, including the state Governors and Albany, which have both been very good for redirecting money meant for mass transit towards other things. Everybody blew a gasket about congestion pricing, gas prices aren't high enough to force people out of their cars, and public transportation is obviously underfunded because this country doesn't care about it like some others do.

[NYCTSignals]

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There's no need for the ( up there after rush hours as its not needed

 

As for the original topic of the post, I weondered that myself

 

 

ummm i worked up there at all times of the day.....its not unusal to have a packed D train at 11 at nite..... espcially northbound....during the summer epscially they should def. keep the B running up to Bedford longer in both directions.

[TwoTimer]

I always felt the ( should continue up to Bedford Park (once it starts going up there again for the PM rush) until the service ends that night (instead of going back to 145th as a terminal). The weekend crowding could just be solved by adding some extra trains, an entire extra service (which would require extra supervisory and hourly personnel on both ends or the idea of half the headway on Brighton) or major cuts to the buses are not needed at all. Limited bus service on the CC corridor generally stops at all the local stops anyway.

[MikeGerald]

I am not saying that extra B or D-train service is or is not needed in the Bronx during the pm rush hours, or that B-train operating times in the Bronx should or should not be extended. I do not live that section of the Bronx, or ride the B or D-trains in the Bronx regularly enough to state any opinions on that particular matter. My only point was to suggest that the pair of B-train shuttles as proposed was not a work-able idea.

 

My only suggestions for additional service involve making this issue known to the the powers-that-be, and getting them to provide the service.

 

For one - I would settle upon ONE really work-able idea - for example: the MTA providiing additional runs of the B local train during the pm rush hours because the D-trains are very over crowded. If the problem is defined that way, the solution becomes a simpler obtainable one. The goal is wrapped up in the demand, the goal is clear, and not muddied up with qualifiers, etc.

 

Is there a way to get the media involved, by showing the over-crowded trains, and the lack of timely service? At times, some very well placed articles and news reports have done wonders. For example - favorable stories on the local cable and local TV channels, and local Bronx papers, then repeating such stories in the city-wide media, web-sites devoted to the issue.

 

Is there a way to get the local politicians involved to push for more full-length runs of the B-train as the immediate solution. A few more full-length runs of the B-train really should not be "that expensive", compared to some of the other wild suggestions. Are there any "new guys" running for office - hand them this issue to campaign on! Or make this an issue for the "old guys" either running for office, or to help them "look good" by pushing to get stuff for their voters.

 

Is there a way to have a poll of the affected riders, and their views of the situation. Yes, everybody wants more "free stuff such as transit" - but sometimes simple things are do-able and not "budget busting". The poll with large numbers of residents reporting favorably - means that you're not the only one pushing this issue.

 

Is there a way to heavily publicize this issue among "lots of the transit folk" so it becomes "common knowledge" that more service is needed. Once it is "common knowledge" - it becomes something that is harder to deny. You have to keep pushing a very simple message, but repeatedly for it to sink in.

 

I'm sure that there are a number of community boards containing riders that are affected by the D-train service. Since each of these community boards have transportation committees - get this issue on their agendas, where they can vote on resolutions. What does this do? It's simple - it puts the issue on the register - no one can say that they've never heard of it.

 

That is the point - to put the issue on the record, to get regular folks involved, to get the powers-that-be involved, that's the way to push the MTA to provide a few extra runs of the B local train in the Bronx.

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

[GreatOne2k]

The idea of a shuttle is laughable. service needs to be the same except that it ALWAYS goes to BPB, thats all.

 

167, Tremont, and Fordham are also usable off peak terminals as well, and are slightly cheaper to run, unless the runs express all day like the . Any of these terminals is better than 145 (because it allows the transfer with the at 161).

[GreatOne2k]

Notice the has help until after 11pm on the Astoria Line, but the can't get any kind of help after 7pm on the Concourse Line. Is the off peak really that crowded? Unless Queensboro Plaza has that many transferees

[Guest lance25]

167, Tremont, and Fordham are also usable off peak terminals as well, and are slightly cheaper to run, unless the runs express all day like the . Any of these terminals is better than 145 (because it allows the transfer with the at 161).

 

The thing is, with 167 St and Tremont Av, trains will have to switch over to the express track then reverse back down to the downtown local tracks, whereas with 145 St (lower level), once the terminating trains stop at the station, they can immediately return back down to Brooklyn without all the switching.

 

Concerning Fordham Rd, if the (B)s are going to go that far up the Concourse line, they might as well terminate at Bedford Park Blvd instead of stopping two stops short.

[Concourse Express]

167, Tremont, and Fordham are also usable off peak terminals as well, and are slightly cheaper to run, unless the runs express all day like the . Any of these terminals is better than 145 (because it allows the transfer with the at 161).

 

Remember that the switches south of Fordham Rd were removed a few years back; trains terminating at Fordham Rd from points south must bypass 182-183 Sts as a result.

 

Also, while 167 and Tremont Ave are viable terminals:

1) Terminating at 167 requires fumigation and has the potential to delay service (and I'm sure we can agree that the doesn't need any more delays!)

2) If you send the as far up as Tremont, you might as well send it all the way to BPB; might as well serve the second-busiest Concourse Line station in Fordham Rd and give residents more incentive to use the Concourse Subway.

 

EDIT: Looks like lance25 beat me to the punch.

[2Line1291]

A line as short as the Astoria can have the cause of "overcrowding", then why can't the Concourse have the if this is the case.

[Concourse Express]

Notice the has help until after 11pm on the Astoria Line, but the can't get any kind of help after 7pm on the Concourse Line. Is the off peak really that crowded? Unless Queensboro Plaza has that many transferees

 

The is far from the only example; the last northbound express train departs 3 Ave - 149 St at 7:43 PM and the northbound and expresses end even later than that.

 

To answer your other question: from the times I've used/transferred/passed through Queensboro Plaza, there is decent transferee traffic there. Also many stations on the Astoria Line are busy. That said, none of this explains the absurdly early end time of the PM rush Concourse pattern.

 

And yes, I'm aware MTA's financial picture isn't rosy but this is a situation that has needed rectifying for years - especially on baseball weeknights, as I mentioned previously.

[Guest lance25]

A line as short as the Astoria can have the cause of "overcrowding", then why can't the Concourse have the if this is the case.

Simple: politics.

 

The folks over on the Astoria line have louder voices than those on Concourse.

[Princelex]

167, Tremont, and Fordham are also usable off peak terminals as well, and are slightly cheaper to run, unless the runs express all day like the . Any of these terminals is better than 145 (because it allows the transfer with the at 161).

 

To me, I think that the should go express until 8pm. Once that's over and done, if the wasn't going to BPB or 145th, then it should go to Fordham Rd. Now with that said, BPB is a big spot for dispatchers and I think the Crew Room for employees so it might be a hard sell to have it end anywhere between 145th and Bedford Park. I could be wrong but that's just what I've observed.

[dman1455]

I really wish they would add Extra trains but wouldn't that cause delays at 4th Avenue? Why you may ask.. because in my opinion Murphy Tower is "special"

If you got a N train waiting right before 36th St why not send it through instead of waiting for a D that won't come for another 4 minutes... I'm just saying. And Murphy doesn't even respond half the time to the T/O's. I was listening in and a T/O called in at least 10 times to Murphy with no response! Then he said "Oh my god really"

['89 Liberty MCI]

I think a video of what goes on at 145th every day is in order...

[GreatOne2k]

The is far from the only example; the last northbound express train departs 3 Ave - 149 St at 7:43 PM and the northbound and expresses end even later than that.

 

To answer your other question: from the times I've used/transferred/passed through Queensboro Plaza, there is decent transferee traffic there. Also many stations on the Astoria Line are busy. That said, none of this explains the absurdly early end time of the PM rush Concourse pattern.

 

And yes, I'm aware MTA's financial picture isn't rosy but this is a situation that has needed rectifying for years - especially on baseball weeknights, as I mentioned previously.

 

, , and aren't the same situation, those lines would have the same service anyway, just running local instead of express. In those cases running express longer into the evening actually saves the MTA money. Running the express longer into the evening costs more because of the need to extend the .

 

The could actually run express during middays if MTA wanted to. They could leave E 180 St the same time in the morning and early afternoon until after 12:30pm

[GreatOne2k]

Remember that the switches south of Fordham Rd were removed a few years back; trains terminating at Fordham Rd from points south must bypass 182-183 Sts as a result.

 

Also, while 167 and Tremont Ave are viable terminals:

1) Terminating at 167 requires fumigation and has the potential to delay service (and I'm sure we can agree that the doesn't need any more delays!)

rse Subway.

 

 

The ending at 177 requires fumigation and it somehow works, even with a combined 4 minute (or less) reverse peak headway. The and off peak have a combined 5 minute headway at best.

[CenSin]

I really wish they would add Extra trains but wouldn't that cause delays at 4th Avenue? Why you may ask.. because in my opinion Murphy Tower is "special"

If you got a N train waiting right before 36th St why not send it through instead of waiting for a D that won't come for another 4 minutes... I'm just saying. And Murphy doesn't even respond half the time to the T/O's. I was listening in and a T/O called in at least 10 times to Murphy with no response! Then he said "Oh my god really"

The stuck in the tunnel annoys me the most, but that's an train issue and not a train issue.

[dman1455]

The stuck in the tunnel annoys me the most, but that's an train issue and not a train issue.

 

Well sometimes they change it up B)

Though that switch can sometimes cause Delays on both lines

[cotb16]

Simple: politics.

 

The folks over on the Astoria line have louder voices than those on Concourse.

 

In addition to the residents, the politicians serving Astoria have slightly higher clout than those serving the Concourse areas.

[Concourse Express]

, , and aren't the same situation, those lines would have the same service anyway, just running local instead of express. In those cases running express longer into the evening actually saves the MTA money. Running the express longer into the evening costs more because of the need to extend the (.

 

The could actually run express during middays if MTA wanted to. They could leave E 180 St the same time in the morning and early afternoon until after 12:30pm

 

This is indeed the problem - you'd have to extend the ( longer. However, as I previously mentioned, the majority of demand from Concourse is for express Manhattan service; thus, one possible solution is to introduce Concourse Lcl/<D> Concourse Exp service and reroute the to 168 St. The shortened route would allow some trainsets to go to the without cutting into the (B)'s current headway; this will allow service to be increased to the point where you could effectively split the service in The Bronx. (I surmise you'd need about 15 TPH combined service for this to be workable; not sure if this would make that possible. As you know, the currently runs 10 TPH peak during the AM rush.) This gives all Concourse riders one-seat express Manhattan service, while increasing local service for Washington Heights riders.

 

The ending at 177 requires fumigation and it somehow works, even with a combined 4 minute (or less) reverse peak headway. The and off peak have a combined 5 minute headway at best.

 

True; in the absence of midday Concourse Exp service you could probably justify turning at 167 to allow the to connect to the . However, I still believe that if you extend the midday , it should go all the way up to BPB.