Could the 3rd Ave El been saved, plus interconnected with todays Subway?

[RailRunRob]

Yeah the Hell Gate isnt going to happen.. that's for sure A City Take over of The Bay Ridge Line could.. Owned by LIRR.. Crosstown Route from BayRidge to LGA..

[Roadcruiser1]

Sorry the Bay Ridge Branch doesn't run anywhere near LaGuardia Airport, and the section north of the Canarsie Line is owned by CSX another railroad company.

[RailRunRob]

Come On it's 1.5 Miles from 31ave to 81st.. right before the Hell Gate It's a perfect candidate.. Not for anything in all the Nine years I studied Architecture, Civil planing and Engineering. Ive never been turned down on a idea so quickly.. And I attended Cal Berkeley alot of hard asses and talented minds . Even tho I dont practice my degree I enjoy this site.. and railfans and idea's.. I was that kid that made maps and Rail Faned back in the 90's But you should'nt limit what could happen. Maybe maybe the line is more to keep up then it's worth. Who's to say CSX wouldnt sell? It's all about the dollar at the end of the end.. Im sure isnt what it was in it's hayday. And to build a 1.5 Mile spur isnt asking to much.. Sure it presents it's issues but that's what the games is about.. Solving a issue.. work around. Statistics, Data and resch If you go into planing thinking it can't be done you already lost.. Transport wouldn't progress.

[Roadcruiser1]

That section is owned by CSX not the LIRR -____-.

[Ceya]

Set us up with a link of some pictures.. totally hanging

 

I have to get pics of them, Ill keep you posted.

 

Here is a link I put up before,this guy has wonderful pics of the 9th, 6th, 3rd and 2nd ave ELs.

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/MercuryWW

 

The ones Im looking at are in a collection.

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[Roadcruiser1]

I think it's possible though to relocate the into the Bay Ridge Branch's ROW, and to have it run to 59th Street. That is the only section that is still owned by the . It has a maximum capacity of 4 tracks so 2 tracks could be used for service while the other 2 carries freight..

[TwoTimer]

Ill go from recent to the past...

 

Get off this to Co-op, Co-op didn't even exist when 205th was built. Further east, yes, but to where exactly still up in the air even though there were plans, plans are always subject to change.

 

On that or on Park Av Bronx Idea...

 

Some mention that a subway line and MNR can't exist next to each other is hogwash, the Lex and MNR are one short block apart and coexist just fine. The Park Av ROW bends toward the southwest at 161st, going under Concourse Village. Going with the fewer stops (less cost in the long run and faster runtimes downtown) idea, the 2av line at 125 and 2nd Avenue is lined up with Lincoln Av in the Bronx, and would stop at 138th-3rd Av, below the south end of the at 138-3av. A slight bend up 3Av would take it up to 149th, below the current IRT . The land area just north of the current portal on the north side of Westchester Av is actually vacant, and would have enough space for a 2 track portal. Structure (el) would begin there (2 tracks), as the line goes up Brook Av for a bit.

 

From here it assumes piggybacking the MNR/Park Av ROW, as structure, not open cut as someone mentioned (there are many cross streets that would interfere with simply covering the ROW and laying track on top of it). It makes a stop between 167th and 168th (keep in mind 167 is closer to 161/163 at this point then over where it is at the Concourse/Jerome lines, and this was a hard decision) with exits at both ends (the Bx35 is at 168th when it crosses Park Av, so the station will be called 168th). Further up the ROW is Claremont Pkwy. The structure goes over I-95 (would make for excellent views) and reaches its highest point, before descending back down to make a stop at E. Tremont. Next and last stop is Fordham Rd (the station's main entrance and crew facilities where the southern half of Fordham Plaza is now.

 

After 125th...

138st Bx1/Bx2/Bx15/Bx21/Bx32/Bx33

149st Bx2/Bx4/Bx4a/Bx55/Bx15

168st Bx35

Claremont Pkwy Bx11

E. Tremont Avenue Bx40/Bx42/Bx36

Fordham Rd Bx9/Bx12/Bx15/Bx17/Bx22/Bx41/Bx55

 

Questions that I know will be posed, I will answer now...

 

Why no stop at 161/163 for Bx6/Yankee stadium/Concourse Village?. The stadium is actually not in walking distance to this particular area, its farther than one would think if one would look at a map. Concourse Village has a lil bit of a walk to 161st for service, but at least its a flat walk, unlike the uphill climb to the Concourse at stations further north. Provisions can be made to add a station at 163rd later on.

 

Why no stop at 180th for the Bx36/LTD? Too close to Temont, and that bus turns down Webster a few short blocks away then makes a right on Tremont. It can easily be rerouted down Park Av instead to make a stop outside the station.

 

Why not further up than Fordham Plaza via Webster? Above Fordham, half of the neighborhood is parkland and educational facilities (Fordham University) to begin with, cutting the possible ridership in half. Also, the Jerome/Concourse and White Plains lines begin to get closer together as well, to the point that by time one reaches Gun Hill Rd, the and are only a 15 min walk apart, and if not blocked by Montefiore Hospital, could actually be seen. This is just view as a fantasy dream of replicating the line entirely to a now phantom lower level of Gun Hill just because it was there before, which is now entirely unnecessary.

[Wallyhorse]

about this: Since the and the will both be running up 2 Av, have them split after 125 St/2 Av. Send the west with stops at Lexington-Park Avs (to connect to the Lexington Av lines), Lenox Av (to connect to the and ), St. Nicholas Av (to connect to CPW), and Broadway/129 St (to connect to the ). Send the north via a new tunnel to a new el with the following stops:

138 St-3 Av (underground, transfer to )

149 St (elevated, transfer to

161 St-Concourse Plaza (connection to Harlem Line)

167 St

Claremont Pkwy

Tremont Av (Connection to Harlem Line)

183 St

Fordham Plaza ( Transfer to Bx12SBS, connection to Harlem and New Haven Lines)

Bedford Park Blvd

204 St

Gun Hill Rd (Transfer to , connection to Harlem Line)

Bronxwood Av

Knapp St(Transfer to )

Bartow Av

Bay Plaza(Transfer to Bx12SBS)

 

I would also advocate three-tracking the line at least as far as Gun Hill Rd; During rush the would run express in peak direction from Gun Hill Rd to 125 St, stopping only at Fordham Plaza, Tremont Av, 149 St, and 138 St and a reconstituted would provide local service from Gun Hill Rd to 125 St. I would also locate the tunnel portals on the block bordered by 141 St, Canal Pl, 144 St, and Park Av because the only thing that would need to be knocked down would be an old warehouse, and cover the rail line from 144 St to Fordham Plaza. I completely agree with the proposal to create parkland along the ROW under the el during that stretch, and I proposed the Gun Hill Rd connection to give Co-op direct subway access.

 

This is pretty much the way I would do it, though in my case setting it up in the Bronx with provisions for a re-built 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan to connect to a re-built Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El (and I do think even if the Bronx portion had not been torn down in 1973-'74, it would eventually have had to have been torn down and completely re-built either to B Division standards or to allow for heavier equipment on the line). In my version, if the Manhattan 3rd Avenue El were rebuilt, the express (South Ferry) line it would join the as a full-time Bronx 3rd Avenue El service, while the local (World Trade Center) branch of such an El would above-ground run with the to 125th/Broadway-12th Avenue and a transfer to the , which I would have as a low elevated terminal for both the 3rd Avenue El and .

 

The three-track line in the Bronx I think would be good as well to provide peak-direction express service if possible.

[Roadcruiser1]

No one in Manhattan wants an elevated line coming down to them again. Even if you make it pretty looking Manhattan would throw it out like it's some sort of trash in a garbage can.

[RailRunRob]

Ill go from recent to the past...

 

Get off this to Co-op, Co-op didn't even exist when 205th was built. Further east, yes, but to where exactly still up in the air even though there were plans, plans are always subject to change.

 

On that or on Park Av Bronx Idea...

 

Some mention that a subway line and MNR can't exist next to each other is hogwash, the Lex and MNR are one short block apart and coexist just fine. The Park Av ROW bends toward the southwest at 161st, going under Concourse Village. Going with the fewer stops (less cost in the long run and faster runtimes downtown) idea, the 2av line at 125 and 2nd Avenue is lined up with Lincoln Av in the Bronx, and would stop at 138th-3rd Av, below the south end of the at 138-3av. A slight bend up 3Av would take it up to 149th, below the current IRT . The land area just north of the current portal on the north side of Westchester Av is actually vacant, and would have enough space for a 2 track portal. Structure (el) would begin there (2 tracks), as the line goes up Brook Av for a bit.

 

From here it assumes piggybacking the MNR/Park Av ROW, as structure, not open cut as someone mentioned (there are many cross streets that would interfere with simply covering the ROW and laying track on top of it). It makes a stop between 167th and 168th (keep in mind 167 is closer to 161/163 at this point then over where it is at the Concourse/Jerome lines, and this was a hard decision) with exits at both ends (the Bx35 is at 168th when it crosses Park Av, so the station will be called 168th). Further up the ROW is Claremont Pkwy. The structure goes over I-95 (would make for excellent views) and reaches its highest point, before descending back down to make a stop at E. Tremont. Next and last stop is Fordham Rd (the station's main entrance and crew facilities where the southern half of Fordham Plaza is now.

 

After 125th...

138st Bx1/Bx2/Bx15/Bx21/Bx32/Bx33

149st Bx2/Bx4/Bx4a/Bx55/Bx15

168st Bx35

Claremont Pkwy Bx11

E. Tremont Avenue Bx40/Bx42/Bx36

Fordham Rd Bx9/Bx12/Bx15/Bx17/Bx22/Bx41/Bx55

 

Questions that I know will be posed, I will answer now...

 

Why no stop at 161/163 for Bx6/Yankee stadium/Concourse Village?. The stadium is actually not in walking distance to this particular area, its farther than one would think if one would look at a map. Concourse Village has a lil bit of a walk to 161st for service, but at least its a flat walk, unlike the uphill climb to the Concourse at stations further north. Provisions can be made to add a station at 163rd later on.

 

Why no stop at 180th for the Bx36/LTD? Too close to Temont, and that bus turns down Webster a few short blocks away then makes a right on Tremont. It can easily be rerouted down Park Av instead to make a stop outside the station.

 

Why not further up than Fordham Plaza via Webster? Above Fordham, half of the neighborhood is parkland and educational facilities (Fordham University) to begin with, cutting the possible ridership in half. Also, the Jerome/Concourse and White Plains lines begin to get closer together as well, to the point that by time one reaches Gun Hill Rd, the and are only a 15 min walk apart, and if not blocked by Montefiore Hospital, could actually be seen. This is just view as a fantasy dream of replicating the line entirely to a now phantom lower level of Gun Hill just because it was there before, which is now entirely unnecessary.

 

Reasonably the best plan yet. Links into all major crosstown Buses and transfers to 2,5,6 giving eastside access to those riders. Major points covered. I dont see the need for service above Fordham as well.

[TwoTimer]

Reasonably the best plan yet. Links into all major crosstown Buses and transfers to 2,5,6 giving eastside access to those riders. Major points covered. I dont see the need for service above Fordham as well.

 

Umm, the line goes down the eastside, unless you meant west side service with the connection for the .

[Roadcruiser1]

That won't work then. The plan is to send it up Third Avenue. I do plan to seve the eastern section of the Bronx with an elevated line branching off of the Pelham Line.

[RailRunRob]

 

Umm, the line goes down the eastside, unless you meant west side service with the connection for the .

Yep Meaning if your coming from BronxParkEast you have Access to Second Ave via the Transfer @149th

[TwoTimer]

3Av is very narrow in many places and NIMBYish, therefore Park Av (one block over in most places) would work even though it is not emulating the original el exactly its the best that works with what the neighborhood (of which I live one neighborhood over from) and land plans are at the moment. Also there wouldn't be any need anymore for MNR stations in Tremont or Melrose either so some money could be saved there (even though there is no agent in those rail stations just machines and platforms). All of these's el's went up before there was the dense overbuilding that is there now. Do do it again would mean putting lines underground.

[Vistausss]

The line to the Rockaways existed before the went to the Rockaways. Back then it was the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. The only reason the even went there was, because the LIRR's trestle to the Rockaways burnt down. The bought it for a low cost, and reconnected to the line. It won't exist today if it wasn't for that reason. Besides the is way too long and it just won't be viable for an all local service to connect to Staten Island. The runs express at certain points on the line unlike the which only runs express for several stations in Queens.

 

You seem to don't get my point.

 

1 I know the history of the LIRR. Trust me, I'm a LIRR guy. I know why they made the go down there. It doesn't matter though, the distance is far and so is Brooklyn<=>SI.

2 Why are you refering to rhe ? I never mentioned the . I talked about a subway line in general. I don't care which line will go to SI, be it the or be it the or whatever line. A subway line is a subway line and I don't care which one is going down there.

[Vistausss]

I second that.. 45mins from SI to Canal is possible. It's over a hour from FarRock to Midtown.

 

Indeed

[Roadcruiser1]

It's not impossible to construct, but the money isn't there.

[Vistausss]

It's not impossible to construct, but the money isn't there.

 

I thought SI said they're willing to put up money for a subway link?

Edit: and this too: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25673

So there is money.

[Roadcruiser1]

What? The is broke. They can't even take care of their current infrastructure. What makes you think they can do any more construction. The even explained to Bloomberg they are in debt, and they can't construct anything anymore. The only reason why the Second Avenue Subway is even under construction is partially, because it's funded by Bloomberg, and that money is going to the Amtrak's Gateway Project. No one else is going to get it.

[Wallyhorse]

No one in Manhattan wants an elevated line coming down to them again. Even if you make it pretty looking Manhattan would throw it out like it's some sort of trash in a garbage can.

 

I wouldn't be so sure now.

 

Sure, there are always going to be NIMBYs, and especially in Manhattan, but with even the SAS only relieving some of the congestion and with the density of the upper east side, I think it would be realized the 3rd Avenue El might also need to be rebuilt. Also, I would think environmentalists, trying to get cars off the road would also push for the El to be rebuilt. As I would do it in Manhattan:

 

The South Ferry/Bronx branch would be the express branch and use the upper level, starting at South Ferry and essentially using the same stops as the old el, running its old route to Chatam Square before going express. Stops on this route would be the same as the SAS otherwise to Chatam Square.

 

The World Trade Center-125th Street branch would actually start if possible inside Battery Park City to give those residents more convenient transit service, then head to Liberty Street and up Church to Vesey and the start of Park Row, then going across there along its old route to Chatham Square where it would become the local. Stops would be:

 

Battery Park City (Terminal)

Cortlandt-Vesey Streets (Transfer to all stations in the Fulton Transportation Center complex)

City Hall-Park Row (Transfer to (4)/(5)/(6)/(J)/(Z)

 

Both lines would stop together at Chatham Square with a transfer to the SAS, then go as follows:

 

Grand Street-Bowery (Local-Express, Transfer to (B)/(D)/(T) at Grand Street and J/Z at Bowery)

Houston Street (Local, MetroCard transfer to (F)/T)

11th-14th Streets (Local-Express, transfer to (L)/T, MetroCard Transfer to Broadway and Lexington Avenue Lines and L at Union Square)

20th-23rd Streets (Local)

34th Street (Local)

42nd Street (Local-Express, transfer to (4)/(5)/(6)/(7)/(S)

53rd Street (Local-Express, transfer to (6)/(E)/(M)/T)

60th-63rd Street (Local-Express and biggest transfer spot on the line to the 4/5/6/(N)/® at 60th Street and (F/(Q) at 63rd Street)

76th-79th Street (Local)

86th Street (Local, MetroCard transfer to the 4/5/6/Q/T)

96th Street (Local)

110th Street (Local)

125th Street (Local-Express, MetroCard transfer to the 4/5/6/Q)

 

After 125th, locals go across 125th to a low elevated terminal at Broadway-12th Avenue while expresses continue to the Bronx, sharing the Bronx Branch of a new 3rd Avenue El with an SAS line (). The local stops going across except for Park Avenue would be the same as the and would be:

 

Park Avenue (Transfer to Metro North)

Lenox Avenue (Transfer to (2)/(3))

St. Nicholas Avenue (Transfer to (A)/(B)/©/(D))

Broadway/12th Avenue-125th Street (Transfer to ).

 

This to me can work.

[Roadcruiser1]

That won't happen alright. The only places elevated lines would even exist is in the outer Boroughs, and that won't even work, because people would still push pressure. Why push for the Third Avenue Elevated to be rebuilt in Manhattan anyway. There is no use to it. All people need is a central Bronx Line running up Third Avenue connected to the Second Avenue Subway, and that is all they need, and also stop foaming that won't happen ever.

[Guest lance25]

The Third Avenue elevated doesn't need to be rebuilt. What's needed is a better Second Avenue. Even the original plan from the late '90s/early 2000s is considerably flawed. From Lexington Av-125 St to Hanover Sq, it's really just a glorified shuttle with a couple of transfers to much more useful lines. Now with its capacity and some of the transfers cut, it's even more useless as more than an intra-borough route. Alas, that's for another discussion.

[Vistausss]

Don't forget the useless dropped 10th Ave station on SAS.

 

But I don't think 3rd Ave should be rebuilt either. It's better to have a better 2nd Ave subway and when Bloomberg puts in some more money, you could extend the line to 3rd Ave. So basically to Hanover Square and then to 3rd Ave or extend it from where it branches off currently and make it a split-line like the (A)'s terminals.

[Roadcruiser1]

You mean the train extension, and no I don't see any need for splitting the , or anything. In fact I don't see any use to the Third Avenue Subway. The Second Avenue Subway should solve the problems, and if it doesn't the M15 SBS should.

[Trainmaster5]

The Third Avenue elevated doesn't need to be rebuilt. What's needed is a better Second Avenue. Even the original plan from the late '90s/early 2000s is considerably flawed. From Lexington Av-125 St to Hanover Sq, it's really just a glorified shuttle with a couple of transfers to much more useful lines. Now with its capacity and some of the transfers cut, it's even more useless as more than an intra-borough route. Alas, that's for another discussion.

 

It should have been at least 3, preferably 4, tracks through Manhattan. Although what's being built is flawed it's better than nothing IMO. If there were to be a Bronx segment would that also be a two track line? Offhand I can't see a 3 or 4 track Bronx line tieing in to the SAS as it is currently setup. I realize this is fantasy and the central BX needs help but this connection doesn't do much for any anticipated population growth down the road.