Could the 3rd Ave El been saved, plus interconnected with todays Subway?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

But Park Avenue in the Bronx frames the open-cut that Metro-North's Harlem and New Haven Lines travel in. If an el over Park Avenue were to be planned, it would have to be two separate structures that straddle the railroad cut. It would be one of the most unique elevated rail lines in the country, if not the world. The railroad cut would also be a factor if the MTA decided to do a subway under Park. It would have to be two separate tunnels on either side of the railroad.

[TwoTimer]

I was just thinking about it cause the width of the cut is perfect for a two track island platform system (remember all new stations have to be ADA complaint complete with elevators), there would be no eminent domain issues since the land in question is already owned by transit (and it would be unique too, like you said), it minimizes the amount of tunneling to be done and there's several wide, barren areas of land between 149th and 161st where a portal could be dug. One could also stay true to Park Avenue and cover the MNR tracks between stations and actually recreate park and rec space under the el.

[Wallyhorse]

You've never been on an elevated subway line, have you? It may not be pretty, but people do use it to go places. Meanwhile, the people in the Bronx who used the Third Avenue El before the selfish real estate developers and short-sighted anti-blight activists had it torn down, now have to pack onto buses then crowd onto the already packed and trains at Third Avenue-149th St. If they ever get around to extending the or to the central Bronx, it has to be built from scratch. It didn't have to be this way.

 

It didn't have to, but even if it had not been torn down by people very short-sighted (though 1973 was a much different time and place as opposed to today), it would have had to have undergone a complete rebuild in order to deal with modern equipment by around 1981-'82 in all likelihood (when the R-12s that I think were retired by then). I would be looking as noted to build a Bronx 3rd Avenue El (or wherever) as a Bronx extension to the SAS with provisions that would also allow for a complete rebuild of the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan (as a four-track, two-level line) to also be connected to it.

 

Would central Bronx residents be accepting of a new el structure up Third Avenue (or a parallel street)? Maybe the MTA ought to survey the residents in that area.

 

That I agree. If you explain the benefits of it properly, I think they would go for it.

[Rell]

I and others have suggested Park Avenue (to Fordham) since that street runs up mostly commerical interests from 161 going north, with the residential a block or two off on either side, so it wouldnt be out their front door or window but just a short 5 min or less walk away. The people in the area though would be more concerned about 2.50... and may balk at the idea that if TA said we'd extend it up there if you'd anti up $3 for a fare

 

Would a service like that terminate at Fordham? & how would the tracks work?

 

Would it tunnel to the Bronx via 2nd Av, to Lincoln Av, continue as Morris Av, then turn on to Park Av after 156 St...

 

or would it turn on to 3 Av after 138 St, turn on to Melrose at 149, then turn on to Park after 165?

 

3 Av - 138 St

3 Av - 149 St (if second track idea, transfer to )

161 St (connection to Metro-North)

167 St

Claremont Pkwy

Tremont Avenue (connection to Metro-North)

180 St

Fordham Plaza (Transfer to Bx12 SBS ; Connection to Metro-North)

 

I just noticed a problem - if the tracks were elevated, how would they get over the Cross Bronx Expwy?

and how would the terminal work?

[Roadcruiser1]

Well my idea is if you are using the Park Avenue ROW you best should go a bit cheaper. Here is my idea for it. During Phase 1 we cover the MNRR's ROW with a roof/canopy. This would cause the MNRR's cut to become a tunnel. It's very similar to the cut and cover method. On the surface of the roof there would be 2 tracks, and 1 island platform for all stations. Here is where the would run as soon as it gets into the Bronx. Thus it would be cheap, and efficient, but the problem is there are some buildings along the ROW that we might have to go Robert Moses on, and say "Sorry, but you have to go. We are building a subway connection to help the Bronx". Later on the would elevate, and run to the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station, and terminate there.

[MikeGerald]

I believe that a few buildings and structures have been placed over the Metro-North tracks (Concourse Village, etc.) that would block using that right of way.

 

Building a new elevated right of way is going to be VERY EXPENSIVE - the costs would be similar to the construction costs of building the Air-Train. That is why buses was used to replace the Third Avenue EL - at least until the Second Avenue subway was built, and its use of the Metro North trackage - until that was ruled out. Replacing the line was always going to be expensive - which leads to the question of ridership. If the population figures of the Bronx are shown to be declining - and they were in the 1970's - from where would the ridership come from?

 

It's a lot harder to get a transit line re-built if it was torn down.

Mike

[Roadcruiser1]

Still if I have to rip apart houses like Robert Moses to get things done in the name of mass transit I will still do it. I don't care as long as it's improving the future for other people.

[MikeGerald]

Still if I have to rip apart houses like Robert Moses to get things done in the name of mass transit I will still do it. I don't care as long as it's improving the future for other people.

 

Good Luck with that!

Mike

[RailRunRob]

I believe that a few buildings and structures have been placed over the Metro-North tracks (Concourse Village, etc.) that would block using that right of way.

 

Building a new elevated right of way is going to be VERY EXPENSIVE - the costs would be similar to the construction costs of building the Air-Train. That is why buses was used to replace the Third Avenue EL - at least until the Second Avenue subway was built, and its use of the Metro North trackage - until that was ruled out. Replacing the line was always going to be expensive - which leads to the question of ridership. If the population figures of the Bronx are shown to be declining - and they were in the 1970's - from where would the ridership come from?

 

It's a lot harder to get a transit line re-built if it was torn down.

Mike

 

NewYork's Population is set grow quite abit over the next 40-50 years. With Gentrification happening nt many places within close proximity to Manhattan and to Rapid Transit.. The Ridership will come. The Population is rebounding back to near Late Sixties levels and is over 1.4 Million up from it's 80's low of 1.1 Million. The Southern Bronx is in the plans for a major overhaul.. Were starting to see it in Mott Haven and in the 149th and 161 area's on the GC.

Plus the shift in Ridership from the 2,4,5, B and D to the 3rd Ave line would bring the ridership to good levels alone. Were going to have to get back into the Age of Transit Expansion.. Money can't be a issue in Major Infrastructural projects. It's takes money to make money.. The gains are insurmountable.

[RailRunRob]

Would a service like that terminate at Fordham? & how would the tracks work?

 

Would it tunnel to the Bronx via 2nd Av, to Lincoln Av, continue as Morris Av, then turn on to Park Av after 156 St...

 

or would it turn on to 3 Av after 138 St, turn on to Melrose at 149, then turn on to Park after 165?

 

3 Av - 138 St

3 Av - 149 St (if second track idea, transfer to )

161 St (connection to Metro-North)

167 St

Claremont Pkwy

Tremont Avenue (connection to Metro-North)

180 St

 

Maybe

Lincoln to Third ave..

With Stops @ 138th/ 3rd and 149th and 3rd

Third to Melrose with a stop @ 161 street

Onto Park ave with stops @

167-168th Sts

Claremont Parkway

Tremont

183st (Access to the hospital eventho it's a walk)

and then Fordham and points north.

 

They raised the 3rd ave line over the Cross Bronx in 56.. Im sure there should be room to raise the line over the CBE.. even if the Tremont ave exit is at the southern end of the station that would add someroom.

[Vistausss]

3rd Ave to Fordham? Just get MNRR.

[Rell]

3rd Ave to Fordham? Just get MNRR.

 

Wouldn't it cost more to go via MNRR? and that's another point, the shouldn't just go to Fordham, and it shouldn't follow the MNRR after a certain point.

[Vistausss]

Sure. But a subway to Fordham is beyond it's range.

[subwaykid256]

heres my suggestion I know it might be crazy but if they were to exted the to the bronx heres how i would build it

 

first I would have the lone go to the bronx via Madison avene bridge with a station at 135 St & Madison than have it go the same route as the madison av brige to go to 138 st, then to Third Av, Than to boston Rd, 174 Street, Wood Av, Metropolitan Av, Lyvere St, Silver St and Than Eastchester Road.

 

Heres my Proposed Stations

 

135 Street/ Madison Avenue

138 Street- Grand Concourse Transfer to

3 Av- 138 St Transfer to

149 Street /3 Avenue Transfer to

156 Street/3 Avenue

163 Street/ 3 Avenue

Prospect Avenue/ Boston Road

Southern Boulevard/Boston Road Transfer to at 174 St

Cross Bronx Expressway/174 Street

Harrod Avenue/174 Street

Rosedale Avenue/174 Street

White Plains Road/Wood Av (Build with Exits to Metropolitan Av by Macys and Starbucks)

Castle Hill Av/Metropolitan Av

East Tretmont Av/Silver St

Waters Place/Eastchester Road

Morris Park Av/Eastchester Road

Pelham Parkway/Eastchester Road

Allerton Avenue/Eastchester Road

Gun Hill Road/ Eastchester Road

222 Street/ Eastchester Road

233 Street/Eastchester Road

Nereid Avenue/Eastchester Road

[Rell]

heres my suggestion I know it might be crazy but if they were to exted the to the bronx heres how i would build it

 

first I would have the lone go to the bronx via Madison avene bridge with a station at 135 St & Madison than have it go the same route as the madison av brige to go to 138 st, then to Third Av, Than to boston Rd, 174 Street, Wood Av, Metropolitan Av, Lyvere St, Silver St and Than Eastchester Road.

 

Heres my Proposed Stations

 

135 Street/ Madison Avenue

138 Street- Grand Concourse Transfer to

3 Av- 138 St Transfer to

149 Street /3 Avenue Transfer to

156 Street/3 Avenue

163 Street/ 3 Avenue

Prospect Avenue/ Boston Road

Southern Boulevard/Boston Road Transfer to at 174 St

Cross Bronx Expressway/174 Street

Harrod Avenue/174 Street

Rosedale Avenue/174 Street

White Plains Road/Wood Av (Build with Exits to Metropolitan Av by Macys and Starbucks)

Castle Hill Av/Metropolitan Av

East Tretmont Av/Silver St

Waters Place/Eastchester Road

Morris Park Av/Eastchester Road

Pelham Parkway/Eastchester Road

Allerton Avenue/Eastchester Road

Gun Hill Road/ Eastchester Road

222 Street/ Eastchester Road

233 Street/Eastchester Road

Nereid Avenue/Eastchester Road

 

The Cross Bronx & 174 don't intersect until after your proposed Rosedale Av stop, so how does your routing after Boston Rd (174 St) work? And the Harrod Av stop might work better at Bronx River Av, because it's more populated with people who aren't 2 blocks from the [at Morrison Av]. And I don't know about an elevated running through Bronx River, how would it even go over the 174 St bridge (which goes over the I-895 - Sheridan Expwy) or over the Cross Bronx? And you can forget about Parkchester letting a train route run through their condo-city going on there.

 

I actually do like the idea personally, but it wouldn't likely work out. That's the X for you.

[Roadcruiser1]

Here is a more realistic proposal from the original Third Avenue Elevated stations that was torn down in 1971. The stations are almost the same with some removed to add to the speed for subway service. The serves all stations.

 

-125th Street

-Harlem River Tunnel

-138th Street

-147th Street

-156th Street

-165th Street

-Claremont Parkway

-Tremont Avenue

-Bronx Park-Fordham Road

-205th Street

-Gun Hill Road

[RailRunRob]

Here is a more realistic proposal from the original Third Avenue Elevated stations that was torn down in 1971. The stations are almost the same with some removed to add to the speed for subway service. The serves all stations.

 

-125th Street

-Harlem River Tunnel

-138th Street

-147th Street

-156th Street

-165th Street

-Claremont Parkway

-Tremont Avenue

-Bronx Park-Fordham Road

-205th Street

-Gun Hill Road

 

On Point but I would add a stop @ 182nd-83rd to serve the Hospital. Id also add a stop @ 167 street. up from 165th street.

[Roadcruiser1]

Nah there would be staircases with ADA elevators, and escalators that would connect to these buildings using passageways.

[RailRunRob]

Nah there would be staircases with ADA elevators, and escalators that would connect to these buildings using passageways.

? From Fordham? on your list of stops I didnt see 183 on there. Escalators? Passageways?

[Roadcruiser1]

I could move the Tremont Avenue station to 181st Street instead. It's possible to build a staircase connection from there instead. That would shut down the Tremont Avenue station instead.

[RailRunRob]

Moving forward over the next 20-25 years. I could totally see More BRT service in the Bronx on crosstown routes and over the city.. Tremont is a major East/West Ave. Just thinking forward Tremont would prob be a important Station if it were link with Crosstown Buses or BRT service.

[Roadcruiser1]

Well BRT(SBS), and Light Rail service is a good idea to make up mass transit for the places that lack subway lines in place. They are faster and easier to construct then subway systems, and if we consider expanding the subway we would have to construct more elevated lines, and use more cut and cover methods to speed up construction at a more rapid pace.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I believe that a few buildings and structures have been placed over the Metro-North tracks (Concourse Village, etc.) that would block using that right of way.

 

Building a new elevated right of way is going to be VERY EXPENSIVE - the costs would be similar to the construction costs of building the Air-Train. That is why buses was used to replace the Third Avenue EL - at least until the Second Avenue subway was built, and its use of the Metro North trackage - until that was ruled out. Replacing the line was always going to be expensive - which leads to the question of ridership. If the population figures of the Bronx are shown to be declining - and they were in the 1970's - from where would the ridership come from?

 

It's a lot harder to get a transit line re-built if it was torn down.

Mike

More expensive than building a similar-length subway? I'd be very surprised if it was.

 

Also, if they ever decided to extend the or into the Bronx via an elevated Park Avenue route they could have the train line surface north of Concourse Village. to clear the housing complex. Further north, the line would have to rise higher to clear the Cross Bronx Expressway, but that's not anything that hasn't been done before.

[RailRunRob]

Well BRT(SBS), and Light Rail service is a good idea to make up mass transit for the places that lack subway lines in place. They are faster and easier to construct then subway systems, and if we consider expanding the subway we would have to construct more elevated lines, and use more cut and cover methods to speed up construction at a more rapid pace.

 

I agree.. BRT (SBS) is more then likely going to fill in the gaps for the lack of Subway Service.. in some places IE: within Boro trips. Crosstown Bronx routes.. North to South Queens Routes works for sure... LightRail not sure if that would be a option in NewYork. Maybe Staten Island or Eastern Queens.. due to the population density and Traffic Dynamics. The Key here isnt what we should do as a quickfix but is the LONGTERM. What is Transport going to look like in 100 years in the NewYork area. Moving between Manhattan and peoples home area and allowing them to branch out from Rapid to Buses. What type of Transport BRT, Light-rail or Rapid? depends on Capacity needs and forsite in population shifts and movement. NYC is unique in the fact that in the early 20th Century The Subway and rapid transportation moved people into newly developed area's. So if you build it they will come. Types of construction also greatly depends on Terran there are elevated lines in the outter Boro's B/C back in the 1900-1920s there was almost no urbanspawl.. miles of low level delovpemnt and even farmland.. Neighborhoods were built around the Subways/Els... DeepBoring VS Cut and Cover all the depends of it that options available or necessary .. Cover and cover on 3rd ave feasible.. Cut and Cover in Washington Heights in most places not a option..

[subwaykid256]

whats a light rail? Are there any in the city