Could the 3rd Ave El been saved, plus interconnected with todays Subway?

[TwoTimer]

Could actually do a lot with just two tracks...look at the and . Reason theres no third and fourth tracks is cause they dont look to tie in another service end to end to have express service

[Rell]

Could actually do a lot with just two tracks...look at the and . Reason theres no third and fourth tracks is cause they dont look to tie in another service end to end to have express service

 

Well, I get the point with the . But aren't there provisions for a third track on the , and there is a used third track on the , hence the

[Trainmaster5]

Well, I get the point with the . But aren't there provisions for a third track on the , and there is a used third track on the , hence the

 

The was built with 3 tracks in the Bronx and the segment south of 145th St to 103rd St. The builders were not shortsighted back then like the present day . Better to be unused than non-existent IMO.

[Fresh Pond]

I think it's possible though to relocate the into the Bay Ridge Branch's ROW, and to have it run to 59th Street. That is the only section that is still owned by the . It has a maximum capacity of 4 tracks so 2 tracks could be used for service while the other 2 carries freight..

 

Ok, so if that's done, what's gonna serve Canarsie? Remember, that LIRR branch turns off south of the Livonia Av station

 

And don't say create another branch cuz that just sounds more silly than that branch idea

[subwaykid256]

To answer the original question it could of been saved but it would of needed heavy renovation. and do you really need extra service i mean theres always the Bx15 & 55

[Wallyhorse]

That won't happen alright. The only places elevated lines would even exist is in the outer Boroughs, and that won't even work, because people would still push pressure. Why push for the Third Avenue Elevated to be rebuilt in Manhattan anyway. There is no use to it. All people need is a central Bronx Line running up Third Avenue connected to the Second Avenue Subway, and that is all they need, and also stop foaming that won't happen ever.

 

Right now, yes, but I think if we continue to have oil shortages and gas prices continue to rise, you will see some of that NIMBYism change. Enough, perhaps? Probably not, but I suspect you will see change on that end and also by environmentalists wanting cars off the road for other reasons.

[Roadcruiser1]

Well I did consider Canarsie. It seems the best idea is to tunnel a bit southwest from the current Canarsie station. Once it reaches the ROW it could just come out of the tunnel, and run on down to create a cross Brooklyn line. It seems to be needed due to the fact the cross Brooklyn buses are crowded especially during rush hour. It would also spur development in Brooklyn.

[Roadcruiser1]

The Third Avenue Elevated would never be rebuilt. If the East Side ever needs more service then the Second Avenue Subway, Lexington Avenue Subway, or the M15 SBS they would build a Third Avenue Subway, but I doubt the fact that there would be lack of service when the Second Avenue Subway opens. The East Side would be well served. There is no need for express service. The Canarsie Line is fine being an all local service. If that is your reason why. The Second Avenue Subway should operate in the same way.

[Guest lance25]

Right now, yes, but I think if we continue to have oil shortages and gas prices continue to rise, you will see some of that NIMBYism change. Enough, perhaps? Probably not, but I suspect you will see change on that end and also by environmentalists wanting cars off the road for other reasons.

 

Just how high do you think gas prices are going to go?

[Fresh Pond]

Well I did consider Canarsie. It seems the best idea is to tunnel a bit southwest from the current Canarsie station. Once it reaches the ROW it could just come out of the tunnel, and run on down to create a cross Brooklyn line. It seems to be needed due to the fact the cross Brooklyn buses are crowded especially during rush hour. It would also spur development in Brooklyn.

 

You can't tunnel over there. Remember the East 105 St & Rockaway Pkwy stations are at street level.

 

Besides, as far as the buses go, the B6 & B82 (both limiteds at that) always seem to bunch up there so not every bus is as crowded as you say it is. On a good day you'll see about 6 of them in a row, and that's both B6/82 locals & B6/82 limiteds

[Roadcruiser1]

From looking at some maps the best idea is to 2 track the tracks that run behind the East 105th Street station that would lead to the Canarsie Yard, and extend it, and connect it to the Canarsie Line north of the East 105th Street station. The Rockaway Parkway Station would be temporarily removed along with the tracks, and the area the tracks is located would be the portal to the tunnel, and the East 105th Street station would be underground. It would then run southwest in a tunnel underneath Glenwood Road. This two tracked tunnel would have these other stations:

 

-Remsen Avenue

-East 83rd Street

-Ralph Avenue

-Utica Avenue-Kings Highway

-East 43rd Street

 

At Avenue H-Kings Highway the would leave the tunnel, and connect to the Triboro RX's ROW. The ROW would run on to 59th Street with these stations.

 

-Brooklyn Avenue

-Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College Transfer is available to the , and trains.

-East 16th Street Transfer is available to the (, and trains.

-20th Avenue-Avenue I Transfer is available to the train.

-New Utrecht Avenue-62nd Street Transfer is available to the , and trains.

-Fort Hamilton Parkway Transfer is available to the train.

-8th Avenue Transfer is available to the train.

-59th Street Transfer is available to the , and trains.

 

This is the only realistic option due to the fact north of the ROW the doesn't own it, and it would spur development in Brooklyn by providing a cross Brooklyn Line. Also it would take less time to construct then the Second Avenue Subway. The tunneling would be done anywhere between 5-6 years, and to reconstruct the ROW, and the stations would take around 4 years. This could be done around 9-10 years.

[Fresh Pond]

From looking at some maps the best idea is to 2 track the tracks that run behind the East 105th Street station that would lead to the Canarsie Yard, and extend it, and connect it to the Canarsie Line north of the East 105th Street station. The Rockaway Parkway Station would be temporarily removed along with the tracks, and the area the tracks is located would be the portal to the tunnel, and the East 105th Street station would be underground. It would then run southwest in a tunnel underneath Glenwood Road. This two tracked tunnel would have these other stations:

 

-Remsen Avenue

-East 83rd Street

-Ralph Avenue

-Utica Avenue-Kings Highway

-East 43rd Street

 

At Avenue H-Kings Highway the would leave the tunnel, and connect to the Triboro RX's ROW. The ROW would run on to 59th Street with these stations.

 

-Brooklyn Avenue

-Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College Transfer is available to the , and trains.

-East 16th Street Transfer is available to the (, and trains.

-20th Avenue-Avenue I Transfer is available to the train.

-New Utrecht Avenue-62nd Street Transfer is available to the , and trains.

-Fort Hamilton Parkway Transfer is available to the train.

-8th Avenue Transfer is available to the train.

-59th Street Transfer is available to the , and trains.

 

This is the only realistic option due to the fact north of the ROW the doesn't own it, and it would spur development in Brooklyn by providing a cross Brooklyn Line. Also it would take less time to construct then the Second Avenue Subway. The tunneling would be done anywhere between 5-6 years, and to reconstruct the ROW, and the stations would take around 4 years. This could be done around 9-10 years.

 

A few problems there (and not by looking at maps, this is from actually knowing the area...

 

-Where exactly would the "new" E. 105 St station be? That station is also on ground level

-If you relocate the Rockaway Pkwy station, where would you move the bus terminal? Remember, the B42 bus stop is technically built into the station so people can have a free transfer

-That ROW going under Midwood is only 1 track, and its still used by freight trains on occasion

-The area where it runs under the is so low which would make a transfer nearly impossible. Besides, the Avenue H station is built so narrow

-The area where that ROW meets the train holds freight trains there

-The area where it goes under the train is directly in the middle of 59 & Bay Ridge Avs, so a transfer there would be difficult. Plus, that area is somewhat of a valley; even though the sees light in that area, its still under 4 Av

 

That's all I got for right now

[Roadcruiser1]

The East 105th Street station would remain on the surface, and would look similar to the Ninth Avenue station on the West End Line. The B42 would stop at a bus platform which would have escalators and elevators that would connect to the platform, and for the rest of the problems the Bay Ridge Branch was built to carry 4 tracks. There are only anywhere between 1 to 2 tracks today. There is enough room for both freight, and passenger trains to use the line without interference. For the (, area it would be a out of the system transfer. The 59th Street platform for the would be underground, and would be underneath the , and platform.

[Vistausss]

Ok, so if that's done, what's gonna serve Canarsie? Remember, that LIRR branch turns off south of the Livonia Av station

 

And don't say create another branch cuz that just sounds more silly than that branch idea

 

The reincarnated via 9th Ave lower level to Canarsie? There you go, problem solved. via Bay Ridge, via 9th Ave to Canarsie.

[Roadcruiser1]

What the hell? What the hell are you talking about?

[Vistausss]

What the hell? What the hell are you talking about?

 

Don't act like that. It was your idea at first to send the via 9th Ave. And I figured since the lower level of 9th Ave has a connection to the Canarsie express track, the could be send up to Canarsie via 9th Ave lower level when your idea of the via Bay Ridge happens.

[Roadcruiser1]

No it does not. I mentioned that the tracks to the Canarsie Yard should be double tracked. There are not tracks connecting the to Ninth Avenue. It's miles away from where the terminates.

[engineerboy6561]

Don't act like that. It was your idea at first to send the via 9th Ave. And I figured since the lower level of 9th Ave has a connection to the Canarsie express track, the could be send up to Canarsie via 9th Ave lower level when your idea of the via Bay Ridge happens.

 

Er, the Canarsie subway line (the ) is two-tracked the entire way and has no express track. Also, I believe he only referenced 9 Av in his post as an analogy to explain the style of one of the stations he suggested building. If you meant sending the to the Canarsie area via new outer tracks along the Bay Ridge Branch ROW PATH-style, with passenger stations along the way and a connection at 9 Av to the West End line, then that makes sense.

[KeystoneRegional]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Trainmaster5]

Question for those proposing to use the Bay Ridge Branch ROW. IIRC subway style equipment is not allowed to use railroad right of way if railroad equipment is also used on the same ROW. New equipment built to railroad specs, or modified subway cars improved to FRA specs, would have to be used and paid for. The alternative would be to disconnect the whole branch from the national railroad grid. I doubt the latter course would even be considered. Carry on.

[engineerboy6561]

What I was wondering was whether a PATH-type setup is possible, e.g. the PATH occupies the outer two of six tracks in the area around the Harrison station, while Amtrak and (NJT) use the inner four. Would such a setup be legal on the Bay Ridge Branch (RR traffic on the two inner tracks, subway traffic on the outer two, no interlockings between the inner and outer tracks used in revenue service) or is Harrison (NJT) territory that PATH has a waiver to operate on?

[KeystoneRegional]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Wallyhorse]

Just how high do you think gas prices are going to go?

 

Who knows. Given the demands of China and India, I could see gas prices skyrocket to $7, $8 or even $10 per gallon in the next few years. We are going to almost certainly see $5 a gallon gas on the west coast this summer.

 

Anyway, that's what makes me think if prices continue to rise, we could see a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan, as I think if prices get past a certain point, the objections would be far less than now.

[Roadcruiser1]

There would be no rebuilt elevated lines in Manhattan. Case closed.

 

Anyway for the Bay Ridge Branch there is enough room for a total of 4 tracks, but the problem would be that 2 tracks are going to be used for freight service while the other 2 would be for the subway. You could have LIRR passenger trains run on the 2 tracks with freight if you could find some way to connect your plan to the LIRR lines. It would of course be some sort of LIRR feeder line. Of course though the would still be extended on the other 2 tracks partially, because railroad service is literally more expensive then subway service. Though the LIRR would do something similar to express service in Brooklyn for the which it would run parallel to. Remember though north of the Canarsie Line that section of the Bay Ridge Branch all the way up to the Bronx is owned by CSX, and Amtrak, and the won't be able to run trains up there.

[Vistausss]

Of course they can run trains up there. MNRR also shares tracks with Amtrak, so why couldn't the same thing happen up there on the Bay Ridge-branch?

By the way, it's easy to reconnect it to LIRR. Just reconnect it near LIC and run trains via there to Jamaica or even to Penn.