If you could, would you have fixed the (9)?

[LRG]

In real-world usage, the isn't that much slower than the , but the is express where the stops don't really matter and serves most of the frequently-used stops from midtown to lower Manhattan, while the and distributes its express stops but skip a lot of the popular stops.

 

I believe the line from the Broadway Bridge upwards should be B division-compatible. If the were extended, the would be cut back to 207 Street and disconnected from the bridge, while the would be connected over the bridge and run to 242 Street.

 

It's not.

[B35 via Church]

What's funny is the ride between those stations between 96 and 242 in either direction is pretty swift without the express service.

Exactly why I don't think there's no real need to bring the 9 back, or have the 1 have some form of express service.....

[Guest lance25]

To take a quote from Mike and TwoTimer, just because a line has express tracks, it doesn't mean it needs to be in active service. Besides, the middle track on the Broadway-7th Avenue line are really just bypass tracks. Because said track merges with the local tracks three times, no time would be saved anyhow.

[Roadcruiser1]

To take a quote from Mike and TwoTimer, just because a line has express tracks, it doesn't mean it needs to be in active service. Besides, the middle track on the Broadway-7th Avenue line are really just bypass tracks. Because said track merges with the local tracks three times, no time would be saved anyhow.

 

I think the center track on the was actually built as an axuillary track. It isn't meant for express or skip stop service, but in case if there is any emergency trains can switch onto the middle track sparing a disaster from happening.

[CenSin]

It's not.

A Division

 

I'm not sure how this is meant to be read, but one would've assumed that this included the Broadway Bridge to 242 Street:

"The Dyre Ave Line and all the other Bronx IRT Els except the West Farms El south of East 180th St."

[LRG]

It means they are not B Division compatible.

[Kacie Jane]

A Division

 

I'm not sure how this is meant to be read, but one would've assumed that this included the Broadway Bridge to 242 Street:

"The Dyre Ave Line and all the other Bronx IRT Els except the West Farms El south of East 180th St."

 

It means they are not B Division compatible.

 

No, actually, that's under the list of "IRT lines that can handle BMT sized cars once the station platforms are shaved". Which means that the tracks can handle B-division cars, but the stations cannot.

 

So in theory, you could shave back the platforms, and connect the Bronx part of the Broadway line with the instead of the with a relatively minimal amount of the construction.

 

I can see where CenSin's going with this -- it would make more sense for a line that stretches so far north to be served by an express line -- but I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon... or ever...

[Roadcruiser1]

It might just seem easier to extend the over the Henry Hudson Bridge seeing that there is a lower level. It could serve the western section of Riverdale which doesn't have any subway service but has Metro North service, and could run parallel to the MNRR ROW.

[Kacie Jane]

It might just seem easier to extend the over the Henry Hudson Bridge seeing that there is a lower level. It could serve the western section of Riverdale which doesn't have any subway service but has Metro North service, and could run parallel to the MNRR ROW.

 

Extending the A to Riverdale a fine idea for a fantasy map, and one that's been seen several times on this board. However as it applies to this thread, it wouldn't really work.

 

But first, allow me to correct what I said earlier. The webpage CenSin linked to is woefully poorly written, but if you read the text at the beginning before the two lists, it makes a little clearer which portions of the IRT can fit BMT equipment. The northern stretches of the Broadway line, built in 1906-08 well prior to the Dual Contracts, can not fit IND/BMT equipment. So extending the to VCP would require complete reconstruction (not to mention a new tunnel portal).

 

But even so, I don't think routing an extension to Riverdale via the Henry Hudson Bridge would be any easier. The 207th Street station is under Broadway, so it's perfectly aligned for the Broadway Bridge. The Henry Hudson Bridge is a good half mile west, so you'd either have to build some awkward curves in the new extension, or reroute the north of 190th. Then if you wanted to use the MNRR ROW, you'd have to curve west once again -- but I don't think using that ROW for a subway would work well, as there's nothing there. The location along the river works as commuter rail because it already has a station at the only location where a street reaches the tracks, but for a subway, you'd want to build something further east.

 

Note also that this thread is about fixing the , and I don't see how a new line further west would really do anything about that. Potentially there would be a handful of riders that would take the A instead of the 1, but I think this number would be rather small. I think most of the riders on a Riverdale line would be new to the subway... people who originally took Metro-North, express buses, or take the (Bx7)(Bx20) to the already.

[Kendell]

Guys i think the Should be fixed But Runs Via The Local Line.

Becomes Local At wakefiled,while Runs Express.

 

Or Cut Back The From South Ferry To Chambers Street And Have It Run To New Lots Ave, Cuts Back To Times Sq, Can Run Late Nights while Is Running To New Lots Ave

[Roadcruiser1]

Guys i think the Should be fixed But Runs Via The Local Line.

Becomes Local At wakefiled,while Runs Express.

 

Or Cut Back The From South Ferry To Chambers Street And Have It Run To New Lots Ave, Cuts Back To Times Sq, Can Run Late Nights while Is Running To New Lots Ave

 

One word. NO!

[Kacie Jane]

Guys i think the Should be fixed But Runs Via The Local Line.

Becomes Local At wakefiled,while Runs Express.

 

Or Cut Back The From South Ferry To Chambers Street And Have It Run To New Lots Ave, Cuts Back To Times Sq, Can Run Late Nights while Is Running To New Lots Ave

 

I count seven words in that post that weren't capitalized. Funnily enough, two of those should have been.

 

That's my only response to this post.

[CenSin]

(off topic)

 

Pink - FtrainFan. I remember his tiny little arguments about things. I wonder how he is doing now. I hope he isn't as bad as he used to be.

I miss that kid. He was entertaining, and I would've encouraged him to continue posting.

[Kacie Jane]

In honor of the tête-à-tête Dan and I had on the New Year's thread, I'm going to go back on my word and explain with logic what is wrong with Kendall's plan -- even though my instinct tells me his post was a bit of trolling.

 

And that's provided, of course, that I can wade through the bad grammar and divine exactly what his plan is.

 

 

1. The White Plains Road Line cannot handle three services (). Even though it has a center express track, you have to treat it as a single pair when determining capacity. Having the center track doesn't add any capacity, since all trains have to merge north of 149th before the splits off south of 149th.
   
2. No one would get on a in the Bronx knowing it would be local in Manhattan when they could just take a from the same stations. The only riders this might benefit are those who wanted to transfer to the ( at Columbus Circle. (It would also benefit riders going to 86th, 79th, or 66th, but I imagine the number of people going from the Bronx to those stations is negligible. For anything south of 34th, it would probably still be faster to take the down and transfer there.)
   
3. The local tracks on the 7th Avenue/Broadway line are at or close to capacity, so the number of trains you could add is negligible. In order to provide any sort of meaningful service on this new line, you'd have to cut service on the north of 96th.
   

 

 

That third point applies to virtually any change you could make to service -- you would cut service at some northern stations, and that would make riders unhappy. Let's see if I can make this very clear... The way to fix the was to get rid of it, and simply increase regular service.

[Grand Concourse]

Kacie: you must have a lot of patience to debunk such foamerish posts in detail. I applaud your responses. I would've just given up at this point. lol.

[B35 via Church]

Guys i think the Should be fixed But Runs Via The Local Line.

Becomes Local At wakefiled,while Runs Express.

 

Or Cut Back The From South Ferry To Chambers Street And Have It Run To New Lots Ave, Cuts Back To Times Sq, Can Run Late Nights while Is Running To New Lots Ave

 

What did 7th av riders ever do to you.....

[Kacie Jane]

Kacie: you must have a lot of patience to debunk such foamerish posts in detail. I applaud your responses. I would've just given up at this point. lol.

 

Eh, that's why I stepped back and let it simmer for a couple of days. Big mistake, because it somehow started eating at my brain at work this morning, so I came back and posted. I didn't realize until I saw B35's post that I'd completely ignored the second half of Kendall's plan, but that's okay because I can't make sense of that part anyway.

[Roadcruiser1]

She is correct you know. The distance from 242nd Street to 207th Street is so short. A person can walk from the to the and just transfer to the express services with no problems. Skip stop service wasn't really needed in the first place. Any idea to bring back the would be old school foam, and should be labeled ridiculous.

[Kacie Jane]

She is correct you know. The distance from 242nd Street to 207th Street is so short. A person can walk from the to the and just transfer to the express services with no problems. Skip stop service wasn't really needed in the first place. Any idea to bring back the would be old school foam, and should be labeled ridiculous.

'

Why wouldn't they just transfer at 168th? I know there have been horror stories about the elevators there, but still, it's an in-system transfer, and the makes an extra stop at 175th.

[GreatOne2k]

In honor of the tête-à-tête Dan and I had on the New Year's thread, I'm going to go back on my word and explain with logic what is wrong with Kendall's plan -- even though my instinct tells me his post was a bit of trolling.

 

And that's provided, of course, that I can wade through the bad grammar and divine exactly what his plan is.

 

[*]The White Plains Road Line cannot handle three services (). Even though it has a center express track, you have to treat it as a single pair when determining capacity. Having the center track doesn't add any capacity, since all trains have to merge north of 149th before the splits off south of 149th.

 

 

The White Plains Road Line (West Farms lower trunk segment) has handled three services before:

When the 2nd Avenue Elevated terminated at Freeman Street (later replaced by the 3rd Avenue Elevated). Everything here was running local.

 

From 2001-2003 there were some trains running in the Bronx during rush hours peak direction, early AM rush(S/:(, early late nights(N/B).

[GreatOne2k]

'

Why wouldn't they just transfer at 168th? I know there have been horror stories about the elevators there, but still, it's an in-system transfer, and the makes an extra stop at 175th.

 

Some elevator horror stories here:

 

12 People Trapped In Washington Heights Subway Elevator: Gothamist

Uptown Manhattan subway station elevator riders more likely to get stuck - New York Daily News

People Trapped In Subway Elevator: 28 Straphangers Rescued By FDNY (VIDEO)

[Grand Concourse]

Once in a while occurrances... If it happened like 17 times a month, then of course there's a serious issue. The few times I rode those elevators at 168th and 181st were uneventful and fine.

 

The White Plains Road Line (West Farms lower trunk segment) has handled three services before:

When the 2nd Avenue Elevated terminated at Freeman Street (later replaced by the 3rd Avenue Elevated). Everything here was running local.

 

From 2001-2003 there were some trains running in the Bronx during rush hours peak direction, early AM rush(S/:(, early late nights(N/B).

 

But those do not affect the line did they? Her point stands: if this were to branch off from the , the will lose service for stations above 96th St and that won't help anyone at all. The as bad as it is, does not need the to help it when it has the .

 

That's because the went as far as 14th St and could afford to fill in gaps in service by the over extended via local line. It's not like all trains were running that far north.

[Urbanfortitude]

Clearly anyone suggesting the come back wasn't riding the before the doomsday cuts. 3-5 minute waits on the was amazing.

[Kacie Jane]

The White Plains Road Line (West Farms lower trunk segment) has handled three services before:

When the 2nd Avenue Elevated terminated at Freeman Street (later replaced by the 3rd Avenue Elevated). Everything here was running local.

 

From 2001-2003 there were some trains running in the Bronx during rush hours peak direction, early AM rush(S/:(, early late nights(N/B).

 

Are we really comparing service that ended in the 1940s to service in 2011?

 

Are we really comparing a couple of odd early morning/late night trips to what I assume would be intended to be a full-service line, at least during rush hours and middays when lines are running on their shortest headways?

 

My point is, while I was not aware of either of those two facts, they don't make running the on WPR any more feasible.

[Trainmaster5]

The White Plains Road Line (West Farms lower trunk segment) has handled three services before:

When the 2nd Avenue Elevated terminated at Freeman Street (later replaced by the 3rd Avenue Elevated). Everything here was running local.

 

 

Correction. The Third Avenue El never terminated at Freeman St. It traveled on Third Avenue exclusively until it connected with the WPR line at Gun Hill . The Second Avenue El connected with the other elevated south of Jackson Avenue. Hope that helped to clear things up. 3 services DID run at one time, the Lex from 241 St, the 7th from the old 180th St/Bronx Park terminal, and the Second Ave el from Freeman St. The major difference between then and now is the shorter trains and their frequency compared to today. With a tower at Freeman St, one at Brook Ave, and one just north of East Tremont, it was easier to slot and coordinate train movements back then, even with the rush hour thru expresses running in the middle track.