Queens Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[B35 via Church]

The main market is from Rochdale to QCC.

 

The other markets are from Rochdale and the rest of southeast Queens, via transfers, to LIJ, St. Johns, Bayside High School, etc. The idea is to open up travel opportunities. Bay Terrace functions as both a destination in itself and a handy place to turn buses around.

You're not getting any significant amt. of patrons from NE Queens wanting to travel deep into SE Queens...

Have it not be for QCC, SE Queens folks would generally not ride past Union Turnpike.....

 

Anyone that believes that NE Queens patrons (specifically in areas/neighborhoods north of Northern Blvd) are looking to ride buses anywhere south of the Q30 in large numbers, is sorely mistaken, the way I see it....

 

I mean, who is taking buses all the way from South Ferry to 125/2nd? Very few people go end to end on such routes, but lots of people should get on and get off in intermediate usage.

 

As it stands right now, pretty much the only way to go N/S like that is the Cross Island Pkwy. I would ride a bus that would let me avoid the Cross Island.

I don't even see the intermediate usage being potent enough to justify a Bay Terrace - Rochdale route... What Gotham states what the main market would be for a route like that - should be a separate route itself.... It running past QCC to Bay Terrace (which is what I just stated in the last reply to BM5's idea) is a non-starter.... Never mind the mileage b/w Rochdale & the current Q27 terminal down around 119th/120th....

 

Your last sentence there... If it's for the purposes for commuting, you'd be in the vast minority.... Usage on the current (extended) portion of the Q36 and the usage of the Q76 b/w Jamaica Estates & Northern blvd (not inclusive), is proof enough for me....

 

There seems to be enough of those routes as it is that aren't used enough. When I'm in Northeast Queens (i.e. Whitestone, etc.) buses like the Q76 are pretty empty.

Despite the fact that the Q76 doesn't have the most desirable headways, it barely takes NE Queens patrons where they're generally seeking.... Being honest, it doesn't really take SE Queens patrons where they're generally going either (aside from being supplemental to other routes along Hillside).... On top of that, that route has large stretches of passenger inactivity/nonstop travel - and worse, it has no real major ridership generator in NE Queens...

 

Not even that shopping center out in College point is a major generator for the Q76 (most are waiting for 20's across the street from it, for access to Flushing & points south).... I like fanning the Q76, but the route's a glorified schoolkid route & not much more....

I feel like that's a bad example, especially on weekends. Yes, there isn't much ridership in that area, but on weekends it dies down in those areas. I would say that weekend ridership above Northern Boulevard is very small, compared to ridership coming from Jamaica and along Francis Lewis Boulevard.

Could have fooled me.... I'd say It's a classic example of how much demand there isn't b/w NE Queens & SE Queens....

Edited April 29, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You're not getting any significant amt. of patrons from NE Queens wanting to travel deep into SE Queens...Have it not be for QCC, SE Queens folks would generally not ride past Union Turnpike..... Anyone that believes that NE Queens patrons (specifically in areas/neighborhoods north of Northern Blvd) are looking to ride buses anywhere south of the Q30 in large numbers, is sorely mistaken, the way I see it.... I don't even see the intermediate usage being potent enough to justify a Bay Terrace - Rochdale route... What Gotham states what the main market would be for a route like that - should be a separate route itself.... It running past QCC to Bay Terrace (which is what I just stated in the last reply to BM5's idea) is a non-starter.... Never mind the mileage b/w Rochdale & the current Q27 terminal down around 119th/120th.... Your last sentence there... If it's for the purposes for commuting, you'd be in the vast minority.... Usage on the current (extended) portion of the Q36 and the usage of the Q76 b/w Jamaica Estates & Northern blvd (not inclusive), is proof enough for me.... Despite the fact that the Q76 doesn't have the most desirable headways, it barely takes NE Queens patrons where they're generally seeking.... Being honest, it doesn't really take SE Queens patrons where they're generally going either (aside from being supplemental to other routes along Hillside).... On top of that, that route has large stretches of passenger inactivity/nonstop travel - and worse, it has no real major ridership generator outside of 165th terminal & the .... Not even that shopping center out in College point is a major generator for the Q76 (most are waiting for 20's across the street from it, for access to Flushing & points south).... I like fanning the Q76, but the route's a glorified schoolkid route & not much more....Could have fooled me.... I'd say It's a classic example of how much demand there isn't b/w NE Queens & SE Queens....

I'll just be blunt in saying that the demographics don't support people traveling from Southeast Queens to Northeast Queens and no, people from Northeast Queens have no desire to travel to Southeast Queens. My question would be for what??

 

Hell I believe Gotham Bus lives in Northeast Queens. How many trips has he taken to Southeast Queens? I'll put money on that one that it's a fat ZERO. lol!

The Q76 is much farther west than Springfield though. If I were to go that far west to go north instead of stopping at Springfield, that would easily add an additional 30 minutes to the trip.

Yeah well there's only a handful of routes that do well going North-South, and most of that is due to the lack of subways in Northeast Queens. Edited April 29, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

I'll just be blunt in saying that the demographics don't support people traveling from Southeast Queens to Northeast Queens and no, people from Northeast Queens have no desire to travel to Southeast Queens. My question would be for what??

...and I'll be more blunt/specific.

 

Even if NE Queens is majority White & Asian & SE Queens is majority Black, there are large portions of eastern Queens (north or south) that resembles the suburbs... People are generally not looking to commute b/w the residential portions of two suburbs en masse....  Which is why again, a large portion of Q76 & Q31 ridership are schoolkids...

 

Now I'm not implicating that those routes should be eliminated because of that difference in demographics, but at the same time, I'm not going to c/s some unwarranted extension that won't make a difference in some route's usage when it's all said & done....

 

Rochdale isn't some magic bullet that's going to spur more ridership from areas north of it, on the Q27....

Edited April 29, 2017 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

...and I'll be more blunt/specific.

 

Even if NE Queens is majority White & Asian & SE Queens is majority Black, there are large portions of eastern Queens (north or south) that resembles the suburbs... People are generally not looking to commute b/w the residential portions of two suburbs en masse....  Which is why again, a large portion of Q76 & Q31 ridership are schoolkids...

 

Now I'm not implicating that those routes should be eliminated because of that difference in demographics, but at the same time, I'm not going to c/s some unwarranted extension that won't make a difference in some route's usage when it's all said & done....

 

Rochdale isn't some magic bullet that's going to spur more ridership from areas north of it, on the Q27....

I was thinking that as well. Both areas are suburban so folks either stay within their areas, go to Long Island or go to Manhattan. Whatever exists in the neighborhood usually does the job, but spending so much time on a local bus for more or less the same shopping amenities... Please. Hell Bay Terrace has nothing spectacular in terms of shopping to draw folks from Southeast Queens and vice versa. The only draw for me when I'm up there in Whitestone is the Target because they carry a few staples that I buy cheaper in comparison to the Whole Foods' mark up, and Shop Rite carries those expensive halogen bulbs for my floor lamp that are almost impossible to get elsewhere being American made, plus the QM2 is a plus for me since I don't have to take the subway. For those reasons, I go there and stock up, but outside of that, nothing so great about the amenities that one can't get elsewhere.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Could have fooled me.... I'd say It's a classic example of how much demand there isn't b/w NE Queens & SE Queens....

 

I don't disagree with the demand for travel between NE & SE Queens being low, I just don't agree with using the Q76 for several reasons, the first being that, because most of the route itself is in NE Queens. It not going to places where NE Queens residents want to go is one thing. However, the tidbit compared to demand being relatively low would make more sense if VG8 was making his observations on the Q76 in Fresh Meadows, closer to the dividing line between NE & SE Queens. Besides, if someone wanted to go to lets say, Jamaica (which would likely be one of the few destinations people going between NE & SE Queens access in significant amounts), there are faster (or at the very least, more frequent) ways to get there (by bus) over the Q76, which is another reason I would not immediately suggest that empty buses in Whitestone are due to that. It would make sense to say that it doesn't serve areas many people want to go to within NE Queens.

 

I get what you want to do with the "Q78" (improving connectivity north of QCC), I'm saying I don't understand the need for it....

 

Putting it another way, how many newfound riders can you expect to take the "unique" part of the route, once folks from the south disembark for HHE, Cardozo, or QCC? I mean, running Q78's from QCC via Luke > 216th > 48th > up Bell (past Northern) won't maintain a similar/same amt. of ppl. that would be lost from the Q31 running on Northern instead of 46th/47th/48th, as it's an entirely different riderbase!

 

Again, while I can concur with the idea of having Q26's replace Q27 local service b/w Flushing & QCC (Q26 local only, Q27 LTD only b/w those 2 points), and while I can understand getting folks on the Q31 (from the south) to Northern Blvd quicker, I don't like the idea of cutting the amount of Q27 local trips you would to try to justify that "Q78"... As an alternative to your plan, I would simply have the:

 

- Q27 local trips that'd run from Cambria Hgts. end at [QCC] or [HHE]

- Q27 LTD trips that'd run from [Cambria Hgts.] or [LIRR QV] end at Flushing

 

....while still doing what you want to do w/ the Q31....

=======================================

 

 

This is how I'd change things around, regarding those 3 routes in question...

 

Q26: Span expansion & service increase to supplement the Q27 b/w Flushing & QCC... Hollis court blvd service eliminated...

Q27: Slight amt. of overall local trips cut (a net increase of local service b/w Flushing & QCC would still result, see Q26)... also, span expansion of Q27 LTD service...

Q31: From the 46th/47th corridor, buses would turn off on (and run up) Francis Lewis instead of Bell, enroute to Bayside HS via 32nd...

 

Basically, I wouldn't bother diverting & re-branding local Q27 trips to have them connect Springfield to Bell, because I see it as a non-starter (see 2nd paragraph)...

One thing I would like to point out is that the Q78 wouldn't have continued on to Bay Terrace Shopping straight up Bell. It would have followed up the Q31 to Bayside High School, and from there followed the Q28 to Bay Terrace. Basically, anyone transferring from the Q27 below 48 Avenue to points along the Q31 north of 48 Avenue would still have a bus, and would not have to walk to catch a bus going points north. This would mainly benefit schoolkids going from the general area of Oakland Gardens up to Bayside High School. On the weekends, there would be no reason to run this service (which is why I didn't have it running on weekends). Depending on what plan would theoretically be implemented with regards to the Q31, there would be no other way but to backtrack to Francis Lewis Boulevard. The reason I had it also serve Bay Terrace is based on the amount of resources I would have dedicated (60 minutes between terminals given the headways provided on that route). There was enough layover time to sacrificed which would have still been under guidelines, and would have not needed additional resources.

 

As far as redistributed with having only Q26s or Q27s, IDK how weekend ridership along Springfield Boulevard on the Q27 is, but if there are a suitable amount of LTD trips, you won't need short-turns between QCC and Cambria Heights & Queens Village on the weekend. There are a few of those short-turn trips already on weekdays, so there might be some more needed on those days. 

[B35 via Church]

I don't disagree with the demand for travel between NE & SE Queens being low, I just don't agree with using the Q76 for several reasons, the first being that, because most of the route itself is in NE Queens. It not going to places where NE Queens residents want to go is one thing. However, the tidbit compared to demand being relatively low would make more sense if VG8 was making his observations on the Q76 in Fresh Meadows, closer to the dividing line between NE & SE Queens. Besides, if someone wanted to go to lets say, Jamaica (which would likely be one of the few destinations people going between NE & SE Queens access in significant amounts), there are faster (or at the very least, more frequent) ways to get there (by bus) over the Q76, which is another reason I would not immediately suggest that empty buses in Whitestone are due to that. It would make sense to say that it doesn't serve areas many people want to go to within NE Queens.

Whether those 2 statements were meant to be conflated, IDK... But I didn't take it as VG8 saying north-south travel on the Q76 is low because there are empty buses in Whitestone....

 

Not seeing what a dividing line has to do with anything, fam.... It would make no difference if he singled out Fresh Meadows instead of Whitestone when it comes to the Q76..... But since you bring up Fresh Meadows, that actually bolsters the point regarding low demand.... Riders in that area are too busy taking Q17's, 30's, and 46's to be thinking about a Q76.... The biggest knock on the Q76 has always been that it doesn't serve Flushing..... I mean hell, there's more Q76 usage in Whitestone over Fresh Meadows - and if it's usage in Whitestone is rather low, well......

 

One thing I would like to point out is that the Q78 wouldn't have continued on to Bay Terrace Shopping straight up Bell. It would have followed up the Q31 to Bayside High School, and from there followed the Q28 to Bay Terrace.

 

Basically, anyone transferring from the Q27 below 48 Avenue to points along the Q31 north of 48 Avenue would still have a bus, and would not have to walk to catch a bus going points north. This would mainly benefit schoolkids going from the general area of Oakland Gardens up to Bayside High School.....

Alright, hold on.... So you have your "Q78" going to The Bay Terrace (shopping) also? So you made up your mind then, because earlier you said that it would either run to Bay Terrace (the neighborhood...  although you never specified where in Bay Terrace exactly) or to the Q31 terminal.... You only specifically declared that the altered Q31 would run up to The Bay Terrace....

 

Let's spell it all out:

 

* Your "Q78" north of QCC goes Luke, 216th, 48th, Bell, 35th, Corp. Ken., 18th, 211th, 23rd, enters shopping center to exit on Bell, Bell, 23rd to stand w/ the Q28...

 

* Your Q31 north of Hollis Court stays on Utopia to Northern, then Northern, Bell, 35th, Corp. Ken., 18th, 211th, 23rd, enters shopping center to exit on Bell, Bell, 23rd to also stand w/ the Q28...

- So neither of the two routes would end at Francis Lewis/29th (IMO, nothing should terminate there anyway)?
- So both routes are running to The Bay Terrace (shopping)?
- So both routes are ending with the Q28?

Make any corrections, because I want to be crystal on this...

 

 

....On the weekends, there would be no reason to run this service (which is why I didn't have it running on weekends). Depending on what plan would theoretically be implemented with regards to the Q31, there would be no other way but to backtrack to Francis Lewis Boulevard. The reason I had it also serve Bay Terrace is based on the amount of resources I would have dedicated (60 minutes between terminals given the headways provided on that route). There was enough layover time to sacrificed which would have still been under guidelines, and would have not needed additional resources.

 

As far as redistributed with having only Q26s or Q27s, IDK how weekend ridership along Springfield Boulevard on the Q27 is, but if there are a suitable amount of LTD trips, you won't need short-turns between QCC and Cambria Heights & Queens Village on the weekend. There are a few of those short-turn trips already on weekdays, so there might be some more needed on those days. 

Yes, I get that your "Q78" is a weekday only route... My comments about the route are within the realm of the weekday.

 

I know how the Q27 is on saturdays for the most part; sundays, not so much....

[Q43LTD]

I wonder if the Q31 and 76 would be the "black sheeps" of Stengel since they don't serve Flushing? I guess the now defunct Q74 could be included

[danielhg121]

And the Q32

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Q43LTD]

I wouldn't consider it since it goes to Manhattan

[B35 via Church]

I wonder if the Q31 and 76 would be the "black sheeps" of Stengel since they don't serve Flushing? I guess the now defunct Q74 could be included

I'd deem them as Stengel's "throwaway" routes....

 

And the Q32

I wouldn't consider it since it goes to Manhattan

Q32 has the ridership & the demand.

[IAlam]

I'd deem them as Stengel's "throwaway" routes....

 

Q32 has the ridership & the demand.

The Q32 has good demand considering that when you look at the schedule the first bus starts on the Manhattan side, meaning a bus is deadheading all the way to Manhattan, shows that it's not just running for the sake of running. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The Q32 has good demand considering that when you look at the schedule the first bus starts on the Manhattan side, meaning a bus is deadheading all the way to Manhattan, shows that it's not just running for the sake of running. 

I don't believe that's the reason at all. I would say that it's just an old operational thing dating back to when MJQ operated the line. The MTA could add trips on the Q32 if they wanted to, but a DH is much faster (and costs less) than going to Jackson Heights, and then running in service. Same thing applies in the reverse towards Jackson Heights at night.

Edited May 1, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Whether those 2 statements were meant to be conflated, IDK... But I didn't take it as VG8 saying north-south travel on the Q76 is low because there are empty buses in Whitestone....

 

Not seeing what a dividing line has to do with anything, fam.... It would make no difference if he singled out Fresh Meadows instead of Whitestone when it comes to the Q76..... But since you bring up Fresh Meadows, that actually bolsters the point regarding low demand.... Riders in that area are too busy taking Q17's, 30's, and 46's to be thinking about a Q76.... The biggest knock on the Q76 has always been that it doesn't serve Flushing..... I mean hell, there's more Q76 usage in Whitestone over Fresh Meadows - and if it's usage in Whitestone is rather low, well......

 

Alright, hold on.... So you have your "Q78" going to The Bay Terrace (shopping) also? So you made up your mind then, because earlier you said that it would either run to Bay Terrace (the neighborhood...  although you never specified where in Bay Terrace exactly) or to the Q31 terminal.... You only specifically declared that the altered Q31 would run up to The Bay Terrace....

 

Let's spell it all out:

 

* Your "Q78" north of QCC goes Luke, 216th, 48th, Bell, 35th, Corp. Ken., 18th, 211th, 23rd, enters shopping center to exit on Bell, Bell, 23rd to stand w/ the Q28...

 

* Your Q31 north of Hollis Court stays on Utopia to Northern, then Northern, Bell, 35th, Corp. Ken., 18th, 211th, 23rd, enters shopping center to exit on Bell, Bell, 23rd to also stand w/ the Q28...

- So neither of the two routes would end at Francis Lewis/29th (IMO, nothing should terminate there anyway)?
- So both routes are running to The Bay Terrace (shopping)?
- So both routes are ending with the Q28?

Make any corrections, because I want to be crystal on this...

 

 

Yes, I get that your "Q78" is a weekday only route... My comments about the route are within the realm of the weekday.

 

I know how the Q27 is on saturdays for the most part; sundays, not so much....

Yes, the Q78 would run to Bay Terrace Shopping Center, since I figured sending it down 32 Avenue would be wasteful, but leaving it to terminate at Bayside High School would give BO's a bit too much layover at times.

[B35 via Church]

Yes, the Q78 would run to Bay Terrace Shopping Center, since I figured sending it down 32 Avenue would be wasteful, but leaving it to terminate at Bayside High School would give BO's a bit too much layover at times.

Not contesting that exactly, but I am curious as to how you come to that conclusion....

 

Anyway, I see the Q28, Q13, Q31, and your "Q78" as being too much service for that shopping center (even with as relatively infrequently that that Q31 runs, and your "Q78" would as well)..... Worse, the current Q28 terminal in Bay Terrace (@ the library) doesn't allow for but so many buses.... So much so that you have some Q28 drivers taking (unofficial) breaks at the stop inside the mall for like 5 mins. or so (which I find to be irritating), proceeds to the actual terminal, lets off w/e pax that are left on the bus, picks up w/e pax that are waiting for the bus, then proceeds to Flushing.....

 

Doesn't help that the Q28 constantly bunches either (which is a problem in & of itself).... Not uncommon to see 2 buses at a time on layover out there.

 

The Q32 has good demand considering that when you look at the schedule the first bus starts on the Manhattan side, meaning a bus is deadheading all the way to Manhattan, shows that it's not just running for the sake of running. 

Yes on the demand part, however that first trip used to come out of Quill.... I wouldn't be surprised if they cut that first trip (now that the route is solely out of Stengel) for the sole sake of saving money/cutting down on non revenue mileage like that....

[IAlam]

I don't believe that's the reason at all. I would say that it's just an old operational thing dating back to when MJQ operated the line. The MTA could add trips on the Q32 if they wanted to, but a DH is much faster (and costs less) than going to Jackson Heights, and then running in service. Same thing applies in the reverse towards Jackson Heights at night.

Interesting, but I'm surprised the schedule was never modified, kind weird don't you think especially because at least 4 buses have to deadhead to Manhattan before the first bus from Jackson Heights is scheduled to arrive. 

 

 

Yes on the demand part, however that first trip used to come out of Quill.... I wouldn't be surprised if they cut that first trip (now that the route is solely out of Stengel) for the sole sake of saving money/cutting down on non revenue mileage like that....

It's current set up is pretty unique, it too bad no one is allowed to ride those deadheading buses to the city, would be a convenient "express bus" into the city. 

[bstar1]

Yes it is

Edited May 2, 2017 by bstar1

[bobtehpanda]

Has there ever been a limited stop route or express bus route to the waterfront communities via the QMT or QB?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Has there ever been a limited stop route or express bus route to the waterfront communities via the QMT or QB?

Which waterfront communities in particular?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Has there ever been a limited stop route or express bus route to the waterfront communities via the QMT or QB?

If you count the QM22, then yes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If you count the QM22, then yes.

Depending on what is being considered waterfront communities, the QM2 certainly comes to mind with Beechhurst and Bay Terrace.

[bobtehpanda]

Which waterfront communities in particular?

 

Let me clarify:

 

the East River waterfront communities (Astoria, Greenpoint, etc.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Let me clarify:

 

the East River waterfront communities (Astoria, Greenpoint, etc.)

The QM22 then... They should bring it back and have it restructured... Politicians in that area are too weak...

[IAlam]

The QM22 then... They should bring it back and have it restructured... Politicians in that area are too weak...

It'd probably be better as a downtown route if anything 

[B35 via Church]

The QM22 then... They should bring it back and have it restructured... Politicians in that area are too weak...

Don't hear much from Queens CB2, I agree.... Queens CB1 however, it's not that they're weak/passive, it's that their affinity has always been with the subway... They care more about ferry service than express bus service... It's not like the infamous Brooklyn CB6 where they're more concerned with express bus service (they're not getting), over ferry service....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1) Not contesting that exactly, but I am curious as to how you come to that conclusion....

 

2) Anyway, I see the Q28, Q13, Q31, and your "Q78" as being too much service for that shopping center (even with as relatively infrequently that that Q31 runs, and your "Q78" would as well)..... Worse, the current Q28 terminal in Bay Terrace (@ the library) doesn't allow for but so many buses.... So much so that you have some Q28 drivers taking (unofficial) breaks at the stop inside the mall for like 5 mins. or so (which I find to be irritating), proceeds to the actual terminal, lets off w/e pax that are left on the bus, picks up w/e pax that are waiting for the bus, then proceeds to Flushing.....

 

Doesn't help that the Q28 constantly bunches either (which is a problem in & of itself).... Not uncommon to see 2 buses at a time on layover out there.

1)The runtime from Cambria Heights to QCC on the current Q27 varies (from 30-38 minutes). The runtime would be 13 minutes from QCC to Bayside High School, and then 6-7 minutes from Bayside High to Bay Terrace. Obviously, if you add the highest runtimes possible for each section, the longest runtime for a Bay Terrace-Cambria Heights route would be 58 minutes, and the lowest possible runtime being 49 minutes. 

 

Now, because the Q78 doesn't go to Flushing (and there's riders along Springfield getting on Q27's towards Flushing even as far down into the 60 and 70 Avenue blocks, in addition to the amount of people taking the bus to QCC. More people without a doubt are heading towards Flushing, so this Q78 would not be picking up these riders, leading to less stops being made as the bus picks up people north of Union Turnpike heading north, and less dwell times per stop, which would actually reduce runtime. I estimated that 4 minutes would be saved during the peak times (where the runtime is higher), and at most 2 minutes outside those times. So that means that the runtime would actually be 28-34 minutes from Cambria Heights to QCC. If you add the highest possible runtimes, the peak runtime would be 54 minutes, which IIRC meets the MTA's minimal requirements for recovery time. During other periods, the runtime can range from 47 to 50 minutes. 

 

If the route went to Bayside High School only, the runtime would be between 41 and 47 minutes. A 13 minute layover is a decent layover, however a 19 minute layover for said route is a bit too much, especially since outside of the AM rush and the PM school departure times, Bayside High School is not so big of a trip destination. Since there would be 4 buses at any given point besides the AM rush (there would be 8), with a cycle of 120 minutes, there would be time to send the buses to Bay Terrace.

 

2) If that's the case given that scenario, then I would have the Q31 terminate instead with the QM20 or at Bayside High School. The Q78 could terminate at the mall stop, with the Q78 taking Corporal Kennedy Street, 26 Avenue, Bell Boulevard, 23 Avenue, 213 Place, and terminate. Again, that's a hypothetical.