NYC Commuter Tax Gets a Chilly Reception.

[Phantom909]

It's the very thought that individual liberties are far more important than the long term consequences to society that worries me. A lot of people tend to see themselves and forget about the big picture. This aggressive desire to hold on to personal transportation is holding all of us back.

 

 

Individual liberties worry you???? That sir is a very scary statement. How do you justify giving away other people`s freedoms for your own benefit? There is one word for that it is tyranny. The agressive desire for personal freedom is what built this country and will save it from tyranny.

 

Joe

[lilbluefoxie]

Individual liberties worry you???? That sir is a very scary statement. How do you justify giving away other people`s freedoms for your own benefit? There is one word for that it is tyranny. The agressive desire for personal freedom is what built this country and will save it from tyranny.

 

Joe

 

 

Very true, this country and its government were designed to protect and grow individual liberty and freedom, not to make some mindless collective of drones working towards whatever the people at the top tell them is good. Theres plenty of other countries in the world you can live in if that's what you desire.

[Shortline Bus]

I disagree 100% The only way someones really getting sick from car exhaust is if they put their mouth on the damn tailpipe and inhale it. The "enviornmental cost" is just the cost of being in modern society. IF you dont wanna be a part of modern society, go move to Pennsylvania and become an amish and drive a horse and buggy around and do everything by candlelight. I for one am not going to support sending this country back to the stone age with this environmental alarmism.

 

Unless you're a car owner, you'll never understand. I for one am not willing to give up the personal freedom of going where I want, when I want, and being in the comfort and quiet of my car, where I can turn the heat or the AC up how I like it, I can listen to whatever I want on the radio. When I gotta go somewhere long distance, I hop in the car and drive there. I like to be able to set my own schedule.

 

 

Foxie i also own a car. However it's not a birth right to own one either. With that said, as long as gas mileage(later in near future greener enengry cars as Foxie once products become mass produced it gets cheaper i.e computers)being far the highway infrastructure in most of America was not designed to handle all the cars on the road. This is true in bigger cities/regions from NYC-LA.

 

With that said, i live upstate in Ducthess County in Poughkeepsie area and don't mind taking Metro North to Manhattan. Parking lots such as the LIE to Major Degan and even the Lincoln Tunnel flat out has too many cars. God forbid in a situation where an ER or ambulence vechile has to take a patient to a hosptial they get stuck in these clogged roads and a patient dies. Or another man-made i.e terror attack or natural disater i.e worse version of Hurricane Irene or the Post Christmas 2010 Blizzard.

 

If someone lives in say Manhaasset, LI IMO and works in Midtown normal business hours of 9am-5pm, unless they car pooling their butts should be on the LIRR. If you drive alone, there should be a tax aka toll to drive to Midtown/Downtown NYC. It's costs money to maintain the NYC/NJ metro area highways and mass transit networks. Even if your town is now served by LIRR, NJ Transit or Metro North, those drivers to Manhattan weekdays should use a 'park and ride' somewhere.

 

That why congestion pricing is the best solution to pay for expanded transit services and new construction of regional rail/subway lines as well. Not to mention upgrade of the regions highways, bridges and tunnels.

[lilbluefoxie]

Foxie i also own a car. However it's not a birth right to own one either. With that said, as long as gas mileage(later in near future greener enengry cars as Foxie once products become mass produced it gets cheaper i.e computers)being far the highway infrastructure in most of America was not designed to handle all the cars on the road. This is true in bigger cities/regions from NYC-LA.

 

With that said, i live upstate in Ducthess County in Poughkeepsie area and don't mind taking Metro North to Manhattan. Parking lots such as the LIE to Major Degan and even the Lincoln Tunnel flat out has too many cars. God forbid in a situation where an ER or ambulence vechile has to take a patient to a hosptial they get stuck in these clogged roads and a patient dies. Or another man-made i.e terror attack or natural disater i.e worse version of Hurricane Irene or the Post Christmas 2010 Blizzard.

 

If someone lives in say Manhaasset, LI IMO and works in Midtown normal business hours of 9am-5pm, unless they car pooling their butts should be on the LIRR. If you drive alone, there should be a tax aka toll to drive to Midtown/Downtown NYC. It's costs money to maintain the NYC/NJ metro area highways and mass transit networks. Even if your town is now served by LIRR, NJ Transit or Metro North, those drivers to Manhattan weekdays should use a 'park and ride' somewhere.

 

That why congestion pricing is the best solution to pay for expanded transit services and new construction of regional rail/subway lines as well. Not to mention upgrade of the regions highways, bridges and tunnels.

 

 

Well if someone chooses to drive, they deal with traffic, simple as that. It's a choice. You'll get no argument from me that its more convenient to take the LIRR to Manhattan but I don't support penalizing people for choosing to drive to Manhattan for whatever reason. The MTA already siphons bridge toll money to pay for the Subway. They need to come up with more creative ways to raise money that don't involve penalizing people who choose a different method to get around.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well if someone chooses to drive, they deal with traffic, simple as that. It's a choice. You'll get no argument from me that its more convenient to take the LIRR to Manhattan but I don't support penalizing people for choosing to drive to Manhattan for whatever reason. The MTA already siphons bridge toll money to pay for the Subway. They need to come up with more creative ways to raise money that don't involve penalizing people who choose a different method to get around.

 

 

Yeah, but you're missing a big point... If everyone chose to drive no one would get anywhere. As the population increases, the roads will become more and more clogged. Now I do realize that folks need their cars more in the suburbs, so I'm against penalizing suburban commuters, as I too live in the suburbs, BUT I would support congestion pricing simply because traffic is getting worse here in NYC. Everyone is free to commute as they choose, but I personally believe that folks should use public transit to get in where possible because it makes the commute better for those who want or need to drive.

[Shortline Bus]

Yeah, but you're missing a big point... If everyone chose to drive no one would get anywhere. As the population increases, the roads will become more and more clogged. Now I do realize that folks need their cars more in the suburbs, so I'm against penalizing suburban commuters, as I too live in the suburbs, BUT I would support congestion pricing simply because traffic is getting worse here in NYC. Everyone is free to commute as they choose, but I personally believe that folks should use public transit to get in where possible because it makes the commute better for those who want or need to drive.

 

 

 

VG8 Riverdale is not an 'suburb' but an 'NYC outerboro' neighborhood on the outskirts of Manhattan. this also applies to Chicago's Hyde Park, Philadelphia Bala Cwydn, and San Diego La Jolla 'hoods' as well. Affluent areas on the city lines. Suburus are usually smaller cities(i.e Yonkers, Newark, Stamford)and towns(Scarsdale, Paramus, NJ)that near a huge major internationally known city such as NYC. VG8 you need to vist more of your 'home' country the USA and not so much Europe lol.

 

Other than that, I agree with rest of your statement. While no one here wants to pay for it, NYC and almost all of America's biggest cities will have population growths in next 25-30 years. Just closer to home in Metro NYC the subways, regional rails and highways/freeways will not have capcity to handle 12-14 Million that is expected to be living in the 5 boros alone by 2040. The monies got to come from somewhere foxie.

[lilbluefoxie]

Yeah, but you're missing a big point... If everyone chose to drive no one would get anywhere. As the population increases, the roads will become more and more clogged. Now I do realize that folks need their cars more in the suburbs, so I'm against penalizing suburban commuters, as I too live in the suburbs, BUT I would support congestion pricing simply because traffic is getting worse here in NYC. Everyone is free to commute as they choose, but I personally believe that folks should use public transit to get in where possible because it makes the commute better for those who want or need to drive.

 

 

not everyone in the city is going to have a car, and never will. Many people in the city cannot afford one, and most of their destinations are somewhere that's a few bus or subway stops away. Especially people living in Manhattan are less likely to own a car because of all the subway lines AND the hassle in finding a place to park it every day. That is likely to be a luxury for only wealthy people in Manhattan. Many people who live in NYC and have a car use it to drive to work outside of the city. I believe that fuel, parking, and insurance costs, as well as the cost of actually buying the car and maintaining it is enough to equalize the amount of cars on the road vs population. Also the trend nowadays is younger people moving to the city instead of staying in the suburbs, and these newer people arent buying cars, especially if theyre going to be living in the city.

 

There was an article last month in the NY Times about this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/business/media/to-draw-reluctant-young-buyers-gm-turns-to-mtv.html?_r=2&scp=8&sq=young%20people%20cars&st=cse the car manufactuers are struggling to cater to a younger generation that isnt interested in driving a car.

 

As for how theyre going to afford the increased capacity on everything? Like I said there's other ways they can offset the costs. Theres defenately going to be numerous fare increases between now and 2040. More people also mean more fare payers. They can restructure the way they do things, or even get private sector companies to run parts of the system like how Nassau did.

 

Increasing the cost of living here via taxation is going to just encourage people to leave and seek work and a place to live elsewhere. Plenty of my relatives moved to the south for that reason.

[Phantom909]

Yeah, but you're missing a big point... If everyone chose to drive no one would get anywhere. As the population increases, the roads will become more and more clogged. Now I do realize that folks need their cars more in the suburbs, so I'm against penalizing suburban commuters, as I too live in the suburbs, BUT I would support congestion pricing simply because traffic is getting worse here in NYC. Everyone is free to commute as they choose, but I personally believe that folks should use public transit to get in where possible because it makes the commute better for those who want or need to drive.

 

 

no, you are missing the big point. You guys want to give away yours and others freedom after freedom to these temporary politicians who claim to care about you when they only care about lining their pockets and keeping power. What have they done for you? Theyve taken our money and wasted it for their own benefit or for "your own good"? Please, its time to stand up for everyones rights They try to sell you a more perfect system, but heres the reality, THERE IS NO PERFECT System, because the system is run by human beings who are imperfect and you cant perfect imperfection.

 

Joe.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

VG8 Riverdale is not an 'suburb' but an 'NYC outerboro' neighborhood on the outskirts of Manhattan. this also applies to Chicago's Hyde Park, Philadelphia Bala Cwydn, and San Diego La Jolla 'hoods' as well. Affluent areas on the city lines. Suburus are usually smaller cities(i.e Yonkers, Newark, Stamford)and towns(Scarsdale, Paramus, NJ)that near a huge major internationally known city such as NYC. VG8 you need to vist more of your 'home' country the USA and not so much Europe lol.

 

Other than that, I agree with rest of your statement. While no one here wants to pay for it, NYC and almost all of America's biggest cities will have population growths in next 25-30 years. Just closer to home in Metro NYC the subways, regional rails and highways/freeways will not have capcity to handle 12-14 Million that is expected to be living in the 5 boros alone by 2040. The monies got to come from somewhere foxie.

 

Oh please... Riverdale isn't a true suburb, but it is certainly not urban, especially Northern Riverdale. It isn't as suburban as Staten Island, but it certainly has a suburban feel (very much has a small town feel and reminds me a lot of Staten Island in fact) and is indeed a commuter community with our express buses and MetroNorth.

 

not everyone in the city is going to have a car, and never will. Many people in the city cannot afford one, and most of their destinations are somewhere that's a few bus or subway stops away. Especially people living in Manhattan are less likely to own a car because of all the subway lines AND the hassle in finding a place to park it every day. That is likely to be a luxury for only wealthy people in Manhattan. Many people who live in NYC and have a car use it to drive to work outside of the city. I believe that fuel, parking, and insurance costs, as well as the cost of actually buying the car and maintaining it is enough to equalize the amount of cars on the road vs population. Also the trend nowadays is younger people moving to the city instead of staying in the suburbs, and these newer people arent buying cars, especially if theyre going to be living in the city.

 

There was an article last month in the NY Times about this: http://www.nytimes.c...e%20cars&st=cse the car manufactuers are struggling to cater to a younger generation that isnt interested in driving a car.

 

As for how theyre going to afford the increased capacity on everything? Like I said there's other ways they can offset the costs. Theres defenately going to be numerous fare increases between now and 2040. More people also mean more fare payers. They can restructure the way they do things, or even get private sector companies to run parts of the system like how Nassau did.

 

Increasing the cost of living here via taxation is going to just encourage people to leave and seek work and a place to live elsewhere. Plenty of my relatives moved to the south for that reason.

 

Well I'll admit that I really don't have much of an interest in a car. Here in Riverdale I am centrally located so I have everything within a short walking distance, albeit usually uphill, but still a rather short walk. Quite frankly if I had a car here it wouldn't be worth it because by the time you find parking, etc. you might as well had taken the express bus. Even when I lived in Florence, I rarely used taxis and just walked or took the bus when necessary since I was only a 15 minute walk from Downtown where I could access Stazione Centrale for any traveling outside of Florence that I needed. Cars will only appeal to the younger generation if they're economical and more environmentally friendly and my generation esp. is much more environmentally conscious with recycling and thinking about pollution. I know I certainly am and that's a good thing.

 

no, you are missing the big point. You guys want to give away yours and others freedom after freedom to these temporary politicians who claim to care about you when they only care about lining their pockets and keeping power. What have they done for you? Theyve taken our money and wasted it for their own benefit or for "your own good"? Please, its time to stand up for everyones rights They try to sell you a more perfect system, but heres the reality, THERE IS NO PERFECT System, because the system is run by human beings who are imperfect and you cant perfect imperfection.

 

Joe.

 

lol... Well you do have a point... The monies are not going where they should be which is back into our infrastructure and transit systems.

[checkmatechamp13]

Staten Island isn't suburban either. In a true suburb, the streets would be unwalkable, and transit would run like crap (you'd have like one bus route in your neighborhood running once an hour). Neither applies to Riverdale or most of SI for that matter.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Staten Island isn't suburban either. In a true suburb, the streets would be unwalkable, and transit would run like crap (you'd have like one bus route in your neighborhood running once an hour). Neither applies to Riverdale or most of SI for that matter.

 

Oh please don't start. They're suburban by NYC standards... That's the point... And FYI, we have hourly service on Sundays here in Riverdale for our express buses and so does SI during certain times. Parts of NJ are walkable but are considered suburbs as they should be. I can tell you one thing... Both Riverdale and parts of Staten Island close their stores early as if they were true suburban communities... Urban areas don't function like that/

[CenSin]

Individual liberties worry you???? That sir is a very scary statement. How do you justify giving away other people`s freedoms for your own benefit? There is one word for that it is tyranny. The agressive desire for personal freedom is what built this country and will save it from tyranny.

 

Joe

Very well. I guess should exercise my right to open up a box of stinky tofu or can of surströmming on the bus. There are many things that people do that have real consequences on everyone else. Most are too negligible to restrict and many were once controversial to restrict (like smoking). With that said, tolls are technically not eroding your civil liberties, though it could be said that if they're sufficiently onerous that you simply cannot drive you'd be indirectly deprived of your right to drive. That's not the point I'm aiming for.

 

Many transit advocates want an equilibrium where transit is expanded to the point that it becomes convenient to get to most places while lowering the time and environmental costs of driving. The way it is now is not the way it's supposed to be: an underfunded transit system, shoddy service, rising demand and inadequate supply.

 

You see, this is apparently not true:

I believe that fuel, parking, and insurance costs, as well as the cost of actually buying the car and maintaining it is enough to equalize the amount of cars on the road vs population.

Traffic in the five boroughs is something that needs to be put under control; nobody is going to argue that traffic is not a problem when a cursory obervation is convincing enough that it is.

I disagree 100% The only way someones really getting sick from car exhaust is if they put their mouth on the damn tailpipe and inhale it. The "enviornmental cost" is just the cost of being in modern society. IF you dont wanna be a part of modern society, go move to Pennsylvania and become an amish and drive a horse and buggy around and do everything by candlelight. I for one am not going to support sending this country back to the stone age with this environmental alarmism.

And the cost of traveling to the five boroughs is going to have to be one of two things:

• the environment which affects everyone, their time—and by extension—the productivity of our economy
  
• or your money for choosing to drive
  

…obviously because fuel, parking, insurance, and maintenance aren't a deterrent to enough drivers to put the issue under the radar.

[lilbluefoxie]

Very well. I guess should exercise my right to open up a box of stinky tofu or can of surströmming on the bus. There are many things that people do that have real consequences on everyone else. Most are too negligible to restrict and many were once controversial to restrict (like smoking). With that said, tolls are technically not eroding your civil liberties, though it could be said that if they're sufficiently onerous that you simply cannot drive you'd be indirectly deprived of your right to drive. That's not the point I'm aiming for.

 

Many transit advocates want an equilibrium where transit is expanded to the point that it becomes convenient to get to most places while lowering the time and environmental costs of driving. The way it is now is not the way it's supposed to be: an underfunded transit system, shoddy service, rising demand and inadequate supply.

 

You see, this is apparently not true:Traffic in the five boroughs is something that needs to be put under control; nobody is going to argue that traffic is not a problem when a cursory obervation is convincing enough that it is.And the cost of traveling to the five boroughs is going to have to be one of two things:

• the environment which affects everyone, their time—and by extension—the productivity of our economy
  
• or your money for choosing to drive
  

…obviously because fuel, parking, insurance, and maintenance aren't a deterrent to enough drivers to put the issue under the radar.

 

Either way its a choice people make, and I don't support people trying to penalize others for making a choice they disagree with. And many transit advocates want to make car ownership so expensive that only the rich people can afford to drive, and the rest of the masses must be crammed on the train or bus. As for the time it takes sitting in traffic, its a CHOICE people willingly make, the choice to take the LIE to the city rahter than the LIRR. But all I know is this, if this is the way New York city and by extension this region is headed, Ill be a very happy fox when I finally move out of here. There are plenty of other vibrant, smaller cities and suburbs with jobs that are much less hostile to motorists.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

Either way its a choice people make, and I don't support people trying to penalize others for making a choice they disagree with. And many transit advocates want to make car ownership so expensive that only the rich people can afford to drive, and the rest of the masses must be crammed on the train or bus. As for the time it takes sitting in traffic, its a CHOICE people willingly make, the choice to take the LIE to the city rahter than the LIRR. But all I know is this, if this is the way New York city and by extension this region is headed, Ill be a very happy fox when I finally move out of here. There are plenty of other vibrant, smaller cities and suburbs with jobs that are much less hostile to motorists.

 

My question is what choice does NYC have with a population that is steadily growing?? I mean sure folks should be able to drive, but the fact is the roadways will be crammed more and more so gridlock will become so bad to the point that something will have to be done to alleviate the problem, so what do you propose in order to allow folks to keep driving that want to? I should point out that other major cities around the world and in the US have enacted congestion pricing, which has worked very well in helping out with traffic flow, etc.

[Phantom909]

Very well. I guess should exercise my right to open up a box of stinky tofu or can of surströmming on the bus. There are many things that people do that have real consequences on everyone else. Most are too negligible to restrict and many were once controversial to restrict (like smoking). With that said, tolls are technically not eroding your civil liberties, though it could be said that if they're sufficiently onerous that you simply cannot drive you'd be indirectly deprived of your right to drive. That's not the point I'm aiming for.

 

Many transit advocates want an equilibrium where transit is expanded to the point that it becomes convenient to get to most places while lowering the time and environmental costs of driving. The way it is now is not the way it's supposed to be: an underfunded transit system, shoddy service, rising demand and inadequate supply.

 

well first of all eating and drinking on a bus is illegal. Your comment "The way it is now is not the way it`s supposed to be' is another example of whats wrong with this line of thinking. What makes you or anyone else an expert on that? Its just another talking point from the "social engineers" who claim they know whats best for everybody, but they don`t. . The more government or these other "know it all masterminds" interfere with peoples freedoms it makes things worse. There plans work in great in a theoretical world, but we live in the real world, thats why their plans fail.

 

Joe

[Phantom909]

My question is what choice does NYC have with a population that is steadily growing?? I mean sure folks should be able to drive, but the fact is the roadways will be crammed more and more so gridlock will become so bad to the point that something will have to be done to alleviate the problem, so what do you propose in order to allow folks to keep driving that want to? I should point out that other major cities around the world and in the US have enacted congestion pricing, which has worked very well in helping out with traffic flow, etc.

 

 

as far as i know there is no city in the united states with it. There are cities in Europe with it, but thats the difference,We are America, not Europe. In the scenario where you say that everything will get too congested, people and companies making a free decision can stay or leave. Thats whats great about America. What we dont need is tyrannical control from politicians to force us to do something that we feel is against our best interest. Thats what we fought the Revolutionary War for 237 years ago. over 1.3 million Americans have died defending it and you want to give it back? Stunning

 

Joe

[Via Garibaldi 8]

as far as i know there is no city in the united states with it. There are cities in Europe with it, but thats the difference,We are America, not Europe. In the scenario where you say that everything will get too congested, people and companies making a free decision can stay or leave. Thats whats great about America. What we dont need is tyrannical control from politicians to force us to do something that we feel is against our best interest. Thats what we fought the Revolutionary War for 237 years ago. over 1.3 million Americans have died defending it and you want to give it back? Stunning

 

Joe

 

 

lol... Well for starters, Chicago has congestion pricing and it works just fine...

[Shortline Bus]

Not quiet VG8. Chicago is 'close' to congestion tolls to be used on the Chicago Skyway Bridge to connect to Gary, Ind. It has not started yet.

[Phantom909]

lol... Well for starters, Chicago has congestion pricing and it works just fine...

 

 

not implemented yet so check your facts next time.

 

Joe

[Via Garibaldi 8]

not implemented yet so check your facts next time.

 

Joe

 

 

I thought that because I heard that they had some sort of change in how truck companies deliver goods and such. Even though no U.S. city as enacted congestion pricing yet, clearly something needs to be done to deal with congestion and you can cry about freedom all you want. That has nothing to do with dealing with gridlock, not unless you really enjoy sitting in traffic burning your money away in gas.

[Phantom909]

I thought that because I heard that they had some sort of change in how truck companies deliver goods and such. Even though no U.S. city as enacted congestion pricing yet, clearly something needs to be done to deal with congestion and you can cry about freedom all you want. That has nothing to do with dealing with gridlock, not unless you really enjoy sitting in traffic burning your money away in gas.

 

 

Its my choice and Id rather burn my money away in gas than give it to an entity thats going to steal it. And freedom is something that I cherish, I dont cry about it, youre the ones who are crying about other people cherishing their freedoms. Thats the difference.

 

Joe

[Shortline Bus]

Its my choice and Id rather burn my money away in gas than give it to an entity thats going to steal it. And freedom is something that I cherish, I dont cry about it, youre the ones who are crying about other people cherishing their freedoms. Thats the difference.

 

Joe

 

 

Let me guess phantom? You support Libertarianism? Under your logic i assume there should be no taxes right? Then there would be no schools, or military to defend our country. Or even maintain our highways as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Its my choice and Id rather burn my money away in gas than give it to an entity thats going to steal it. And freedom is something that I cherish, I dont cry about it, youre the ones who are crying about other people cherishing their freedoms. Thats the difference.

 

Joe

 

 

You want to talk about freedoms huh?? Well I'd like to not spend my time sitting in traffic. You are hiding behind this freedom crappola for the wrong reasons. The point is we ALL deserve quicker commutes and having people clog the streets with their cars does not benefit anyone, period.

[Phantom909]

Let me guess phantom? You support Libertarianism? Under your logic i assume there should be no taxes right? Then there would be no schools, or military to defend our country. Or even maintain our highways as well.

 

 

No I am not a Libertarian. I pay my taxes. But Im tired of seeing my tax money being wasted. If the money would go to where its supposed to I wouldnt mind it, but it doesnt, thats why I am against any more taken from me until the politicians who put us into this mess straighten it out. I have to live within a budget, why cant they?

 

Joe

[Phantom909]

You want to talk about freedoms huh?? Well I'd like to not spend my time sitting in traffic. You are hiding behind this freedom crappola for the wrong reasons. The point is we ALL deserve quicker commutes and having people clog the streets with their cars does not benefit anyone, period.

 

 

Freedom crappola? Its always stunning to me how [people can decide what freedoms other people can have. Where do you get off forcing your beliefs on others. If people want to drive, take a train bus walk do handstands all the way to work its fine with me. You dont have the right to decide whats best for me or anyone else. You have the right to decide whats right for you without impacting others rights.

 

Joe