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B36 Via Ave U

Brooklyn Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

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4 hours ago, Just New York said:

That for the elderly you have the western Beef on new lots plus other shops. Pennsylvania does not need 3 buses to the Juction you also help the No non ADA (3) stations. A lot of people would use the B84 to Navigate that side of ENY as your connecting major shopping points.

I'm not implicating that it should run to Broadway Junction.... Any route semi-circulating the same general area like that doesn't need to exist.... Your B20 on Van Siclen & the B83 running clear along Penn is sufficient enough.

I get that you had high hopes for the (real) B84, but the thing is a failed experiment.... If the community it's supposed to serve doesn't support it, then neither will I.....

9 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

This was another BrooklynBus proposal from 2004. This would’ve been done in conjunction with the Spring Creek extension. In my plan,  buses would use Euclid Avenue and Crescent Street going to Crown Heights from Spring Creek. It would then run via Pitkin Avenue to Logan/Fountain Avenues and return to Sutter Avenue to resume the normal route. This reroute would add 5 minutes for those going to destinations west of Fountain Avenue, but would provide those east of Crescent Street and in eastern Spring Creek with a new subway line to access. 

....Except the B14 does enough backtracking... At least that one is justified, as it benefits a large enough a concentration of people.

There are already two routes in Spring Creek in very close proximity to Forbell running to Euclid subway (B13, Q8)....  This idea that you're going to have the B14 serve Euclid subway to benefit a 2x2 block community & make it more attractive to other Spring Creek patrons as well, is excessive.... I get it, it's an exercise in nobility - but there's another train of thought that says, well hey, if you decide to reside in a tucked away area like that, then chances are you're not factoring in having public transit as a primary option.....

 

Edited by B35 via Church
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Based on a previous proposal I made for a cross-Brooklyn route via 65th Street and Avenue P, except it's an extension of the B2 as opposed to the B31:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XI7hh17kWZala56pNiiPgWOTr4cDmA5G&ll=40.61849798344596%2C-73.97457500000002&z=11

If it were to come to life, I'm not sure whether to base it at Jackie Gleason or Flatbush...

Edited by lara8710

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:19 PM, lara8710 said:

Based on a previous proposal I made for a cross-Brooklyn route via 65th Street and Avenue P, except it's an extension of the B2 as opposed to the B31:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XI7hh17kWZala56pNiiPgWOTr4cDmA5G&ll=40.61849798344596%2C-73.97457500000002&z=11

If it were to come to life, I'm not sure whether to base it at Jackie Gleason or Flatbush...

UPDATE: Eastern terminal moved (back) to Gerritsen Beach on map

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On 11/26/2018 at 3:22 AM, B35 via Church said:

I'm not implicating that it should run to Broadway Junction.... Any route semi-circulating the same general area like that doesn't need to exist.... Your B20 on Van Siclen & the B83 running clear along Penn is sufficient enough.

I get that you had high hopes for the (real) B84, but the thing is a failed experiment.... If the community it's supposed to serve doesn't support it, then neither will I.....

....Except the B14 does enough backtracking... At least that one is justified, as it benefits a large enough a concentration of people.

There are already two routes in Spring Creek in very close proximity to Forbell running to Euclid subway (B13, Q8)....  This idea that you're going to have the B14 serve Euclid subway to benefit a 2x2 block community & make it more attractive to other Spring Creek patrons as well, is excessive.... I get it, it's an exercise in nobility - but there's another train of thought that says, well hey, if you decide to reside in a tucked away area like that, then chances are you're not factoring in having public transit as a primary option.....

 

I think a (3) train extension to Flatlands Avenue would sound like a better idea, don't you think?

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On the B84 issue---when the neighborhood is complete and Vandalia Avenue is re-opened between Gateway Drive (formerly the proposed Walker Street) and Elton Street), I see a better option...reroute the B13 and the Q8. Both routes would end at Gateway Mall via JC Penney, but take different routes there. Both would turn off Fountain at Vandalia Avenue. Then:

  • One route would turn left onto Erskine Street, operate south on Erskine Street, and then along Gateway Drive.
    • New stops at: Vandalia & Fountain, Erskine/Vandalia, Erskine at Buffalo Wild Wings, Erskine at Home Depot, Gateway Drive at Site Drive (actually made a stop), and Gateway Drive at JC Penney.
  • The other route would remain on Vandalia Avenue, making the following stops on Vandalia:
    • Fountain, Erskine, Essex, Elton, mid-way between Elton and Gateway Drive, and Gateway Drive at JC Penney

At that point, the B84 would be discontinued, with better connections and ADA access to the subway. The build-up of the neighborhood requires a rethinking of the routes in Spring Creek Basin.

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8 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

On the B84 issue---when the neighborhood is complete and Vandalia Avenue is re-opened between Gateway Drive (formerly the proposed Walker Street) and Elton Street), I see a better option...reroute the B13 and the Q8. Both routes would end at Gateway Mall via JC Penney, but take different routes there. Both would turn off Fountain at Vandalia Avenue. Then:

  • One route would turn left onto Erskine Street, operate south on Erskine Street, and then along Gateway Drive.
    • New stops at: Vandalia & Fountain, Erskine/Vandalia, Erskine at Buffalo Wild Wings, Erskine at Home Depot, Gateway Drive at Site Drive (actually made a stop), and Gateway Drive at JC Penney.
  • The other route would remain on Vandalia Avenue, making the following stops on Vandalia:
    • Fountain, Erskine, Essex, Elton, mid-way between Elton and Gateway Drive, and Gateway Drive at JC Penney

At that point, the B84 would be discontinued, with better connections and ADA access to the subway. The build-up of the neighborhood requires a rethinking of the routes in Spring Creek Basin.

Yeah, with the combination of [the current terminal having been carved, proximate to Gateway II] & [the closing of Brooklyn DDSO], there's no real point to having buses run down Fountain all the way to the end....

I say the B84 should get axed, regardless....

For what you're proposing here however, I'd have the Q8 running via Erskine & the B13 running via Vandalia....

The whole point of the Q8 extension was to serve Gateway, not to better serve Brooklyn neighborhoods..... That route is a PITA along 101st as it is; nevermind what it has to deal with within Jamaica proper.... With that said, I would not have Q8's making all those stops you list after the (current) Fountain/Flatlands stop..... After Flatlands, I'd only have it stopping by the eastern end of Gateway II (Buffalo Wild Wings), the current Site dr. stop, and the western end of Gateway II (current terminal)..... Leave Vandalia/Fountain & Erskine/Vandaila for the B13.... As for the Home depot stop (which was where they had B84's temporarily terminating at throughout most of this year), the problem I have with it is that it exacerbates traffic in the immediate area.... That right lane/curbside lane should be left for all the mall goers making that right turn inside the mall....

I think the B13 is underserved as it is, but (if one were to) have the B13 running via Vandalia (esp. during peak hours), you may end up needing short turns b/w the mall & Jamaica av. when Spring Creek gets fully developed down there.....

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4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, with the combination of [the current terminal having been carved, proximate to Gateway II] & [the closing of Brooklyn DDSO], there's no real point to having buses run down Fountain all the way to the end....

I say the B84 should get axed, regardless....

For what you're proposing here however, I'd have the Q8 running via Erskine & the B13 running via Vandalia....

The whole point of the Q8 extension was to serve Gateway, not to better serve Brooklyn neighborhoods..... That route is a PITA along 101st as it is; nevermind what it has to deal with within Jamaica proper.... With that said, I would not have Q8's making all those stops you list after the (current) Fountain/Flatlands stop..... After Flatlands, I'd only have it stopping by the eastern end of Gateway II (Buffalo Wild Wings), the current Site dr. stop, and the western end of Gateway II (current terminal)..... Leave Vandalia/Fountain & Erskine/Vandaila for the B13.... As for the Home depot stop (which was where they had B84's temporarily terminating at throughout most of this year), the problem I have with it is that it exacerbates traffic in the immediate area.... That right lane/curbside lane should be left for all the mall goers making that right turn inside the mall....

I think the B13 is underserved as it is, but (if one were to) have the B13 running via Vandalia (esp. during peak hours), you may end up needing short turns b/w the mall & Jamaica av. when Spring Creek gets fully developed down there.....

I intentionally didn't assign one route number to a plan since I couldn't decide which should go where. I agree that the B13 is likely more valid along Vandalia. The B13 short turns could come from Spring Creek Depot once everything is fully merged there.

---REPLY ENDS HERE---

While not a route proposal per se, is there any reason why, with the new bridges all open on Shore Parkway between Sheepshead Bay and Spring Creek (the last one was the former Mill Basin Draw), the BM routes, in particular the BM3/4 could not use Shore Parkway to deadhead at the flow of traffic (50-55 mph; I believe the capped top speed is 60 mph) instead of down city streets at 25 mph? One could reduce the run-on and run-offs to about 15 minutes. instead of the current Flatlands/Ralph/Mill/U/Knapp or Gerritsen deadhead. Right now, it's as inefficient as NJ Transit's Ironbound garage is (Ironbound is in Newark not too far from the Sims Metal scrapyard, but serves routes deep into Union County, NJ).

Edited by aemoreira81

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10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, with the combination of [the current terminal having been carved, proximate to Gateway II] & [the closing of Brooklyn DDSO], there's no real point to having buses run down Fountain all the way to the end....

I say the B84 should get axed, regardless....

For what you're proposing here however, I'd have the Q8 running via Erskine & the B13 running via Vandalia....

The whole point of the Q8 extension was to serve Gateway, not to better serve Brooklyn neighborhoods..... That route is a PITA along 101st as it is; nevermind what it has to deal with within Jamaica proper.... With that said, I would not have Q8's making all those stops you list after the (current) Fountain/Flatlands stop..... After Flatlands, I'd only have it stopping by the eastern end of Gateway II (Buffalo Wild Wings), the current Site dr. stop, and the western end of Gateway II (current terminal)..... Leave Vandalia/Fountain & Erskine/Vandaila for the B13.... As for the Home depot stop (which was where they had B84's temporarily terminating at throughout most of this year), the problem I have with it is that it exacerbates traffic in the immediate area.... That right lane/curbside lane should be left for all the mall goers making that right turn inside the mall....

I think the B13 is underserved as it is, but (if one were to) have the B13 running via Vandalia (esp. during peak hours), you may end up needing short turns b/w the mall & Jamaica av. when Spring Creek gets fully developed down there.....

As somebody from this area where do you get you number from ??. That community will use the B84 if it better servers us say New Lots or Pennsylvania Avenue. No one will use the B84 from New Lots because the people that use gateway don’t come from the (3). Brookline, Linden & Blvd all use gateway but don’t have a direct bus beside the horrible B83. If you give the B84 more western service you can draw people to it.

The Q8 will not do much for that side as none of us really wanna go to QNS. The B13 is a wasted routes should just left the B18. That the biggest issue with the bus system it’s not basied off the neighborhood that use them. We have 7 Routes in and Around the Spring Creek (Gateway) & ENY area only 2 sever the mall from the same direction. 

Edited by Just New York

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5 hours ago, Just New York said:

As somebody from this area where do you get you number from ??. That community will use the B84 if it better servers us say New Lots or Pennsylvania Avenue. No one will use the B84 from New Lots because the people that use gateway don’t come from the (3). Brookline, Linden & Blvd all use gateway but don’t have a direct bus beside the horrible B83. If you give the B84 more western service you can draw people to it.

The Q8 will not do much for that side as none of us really wanna go to QNS. The B13 is a wasted routes should just left the B18. That the biggest issue with the bus system it’s not basied off the neighborhood that use them. We have 7 Routes in and Around the Spring Creek (Gateway) & ENY area only 2 sever the mall from the same direction. 

- Where do I get what number from? What are you talking about....

- I'm not going to keep going back & forth with you about the B84.... I said what I said in prior posts to you in this thread & my sentiments are not going to change - Nor is the shitty usage of the B84 apparently :lol:.... I mean listen, you feel that strongly about making the thing more useful, take it up with the MTA & fight for whatever change you deem necessary....

- As far as the Q8, people of your ilk not wanting to go to Queens (who's even disputing this??) doesn't mean that the route should continue to serve much of a bunch of nothing along Fountain, south of Vandalia.... I'm not sure why you bothered conveying that to me anyway, as I just sat there & said verbatim "The whole point of the Q8 extension was to serve Gateway, not to better serve Brooklyn neighborhoods"...

- You say the B13 is a wasted route... I say the B18 was more useful than this damn B84 the MTA got running out here - look where the hell that route ended up !

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6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

- Where do I get what number from? What are you talking about....

- I'm not going to keep going back & forth with you about the B84.... I said what I said in prior posts to you in this thread & my sentiments are not going to change - Nor is the shitty usage of the B84 apparently :lol:.... I mean listen, you feel that strongly about making the thing more useful, take it up with the MTA & fight for whatever change you deem necessary....

- As far as the Q8, people of your ilk not wanting to go to Queens (who's even disputing this??) doesn't mean that the route should continue to serve much of a bunch of nothing along Fountain, south of Vandalia.... I'm not sure why you bothered conveying that to me anyway, as I just sat there & said verbatim "The whole point of the Q8 extension was to serve Gateway, not to better serve Brooklyn neighborhoods"...

- You say the B13 is a wasted route... I say the B18 was more useful than this damn B84 the MTA got running out here - look where the hell that route ended up !

It’s not about the B84 and more of your lack of knowledge of the area and the service needs. The network in that area is not geared towards the demands of service for the present time. I don’t really go to Gateway so I could care less if the B84 stay or goes, But it’s not useless I will say that.

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1 hour ago, Just New York said:

It’s not about the B84 and more of your lack of knowledge of the area and the service needs. The network in that area is not geared towards the demands of service for the present time. I don’t really go to Gateway so I could care less if the B84 stay or goes, But it’s not useless I will say that.

Yeah right, coming from someone that suggests restructuring the B20 to have the B84 take on some foolish semi-circular routing & having commenced in a further defense of it.... You claim to live in the area & that's the best you can come up with.... Just like the B84, what a joke.... This is most certainly about that route & the fact that you're adamant about the thing being not being useless.... Nobody's disputing that it's not filling a demand - which makes it useless :lol:

Don't talk to me about knowledge when you come on here talking about the B13 being a wasted route...

The MTA let you down with the B84, too bad.... To hell with this exchange of posts on here, the riders are talking with their feet... The thing is useless.

Edited by B35 via Church

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I feel like we all are going back and forth with this B84 service. Yes, the portion of East New York // Spring Creek is being developed. However, I’m not here to advocate whether or not the B84 should stay or go. Spring Creek needs transportation options to get their patrons to the subway. I feel once everything is developed. Gateway II & III will semi car centric and bus centric. 

 

1 hour ago, Just New York said:

It’s not about the B84 and more of your lack of knowledge of the area and the service needs. The network in that area is not geared towards the demands of service for the present time. I don’t really go to Gateway so I could care less if the B84 stay or goes, But it’s not useless I will say that.

As for someone who drives into East New York a lot. I will say this. The MTA is having a hard time making the B84 useful. Although it provides bus connections to the B6, B13, B15, B20 and B83 and the (3)(4) trains at New Lots. 

Penn Avenue has its own reliability issues with the B20 // B83. To me if the B84 is to be relevant it has to cover all of Spring Creek and some of City line- Liberty Avenue, Grant Avenue and Sheridan Avenue (Former B12) or the old B18 on Cypress Hills Station- Jamaica Avenue (J)(Z)  

Extending to Broadway-East New York and other points are not useful. Once a upon of time I’ve mentioned that the 84 should cover Canarsie. Although my idea was met with a lot of criticism I understood why it wouldn’t work b/c your telling people to back track into Rockaway Parkway and start their trip into Manhattan via the (L)  (I know @B35 via Church) would agree with me on this. 

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7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You say the B13 is a wasted route... I say the B18 was more useful than this damn B84 the MTA got running out here - look where the hell that route ended up !

My first question is whassup with this Brooklyn re-design plan. The re-design is taking forever I might even rollover my grave before this ever happens 😂😂

2nd: I’ve been reading old articles from 2001 and 2002 how the B18 service severely dropped b/c of the construction on Cypress Avenue. If the MTA did right with the B18 today we wouldn’t even have a discussion with the B84 and using the B18 model that would of been extended perhaps to Spring Creek // Gateway Mall. 

3rd: To me (IMO) if the 84 were to surivive it has to service Spring Creek, City Line and perhaps a touch of Ridgewood // Glendale if wants to see the light of day. What do i know with this planning process 😂😂. #fin 

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2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I feel like we all are going back and forth with this B84 service. Yes, the portion of East New York // Spring Creek is being developed. However, I’m not here to advocate whether or not the B84 should stay or go. Spring Creek needs transportation options to get their patrons to the subway. I feel once everything is developed. Gateway II & III will semi car centric and bus centric. 

As for someone who drives into East New York a lot. I will say this. The MTA is having a hard time making the B84 useful. Although it provides bus connections to the B6, B13, B15, B20 and B83 and the (3)(4) trains at New Lots. 

Penn Avenue has its own reliability issues with the B20 // B83. To me if the B84 is to be relevant it has to cover all of Spring Creek and some of City line- Liberty Avenue, Grant Avenue and Sheridan Avenue (Former B12) or the old B18 on Cypress Hills Station- Jamaica Avenue (J)(Z)  

Extending to Broadway-East New York and other points are not useful. Once a upon of time I’ve mentioned that the 84 should cover Canarsie. Although my idea was met with a lot of criticism I understood why it wouldn’t work b/c your telling people to back track into Rockaway Parkway and start their trip into Manhattan via the (L)  (I know @B35 via Church) would agree with me on this. 

The problem per se isn't the notion behind having created a route to serve the new-formed community, it's how frugally they went about doing it....

FWIW, I just find it real odd that, considering all that was done to the old Q21 that yielded in Arverne getting the plentiful amount of service it has today, there wasn't remotely a similar amount of effort put in to better serving that newly-formed community within Spring Creek.... Arverne was undergoing urban renewal too when the Q21 used to serve areas west of the Hammels Wye during & before the fact.... I mean we see what's going down in Spring Creek as far as development goes & all they get in terms of newly formed bus service is a POS dinky shuttle that runs from the mall to the subway - that half ass serves the newformed community on top of it..... Complete slap in the face; it's as if the route was set up to fail.... If the issue is that (the MTA believes) that general pocket of Brooklyn is oversaturated, then they should have never created the B84 as is, to begin with... Of course, having to alter other routes to serve that immediate pocket of Spring Creek meant more $$$$.... Public transit is supposed to be about serving the public, but AFAIC, with this agency, I seriously question that (at least, it being the primary motivation anyway)......

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

My first question is whassup with this Brooklyn re-design plan. The re-design is taking forever I might even rollover my grave before this ever happens 😂😂

2nd: I’ve been reading old articles from 2001 and 2002 how the B18 service severely dropped b/c of the construction on Cypress Avenue. If the MTA did right with the B18 today we wouldn’t even have a discussion with the B84 and using the B18 model that would of been extended perhaps to Spring Creek // Gateway Mall. 

3rd: To me (IMO) if the 84 were to surivive it has to service Spring Creek, City Line and perhaps a touch of Ridgewood // Glendale if wants to see the light of day. What do i know with this planning process 😂😂. #fin 

1) Don't know & not looking forward to it either, to be honest....

2) As far as keeping it around goes? Well B18 headways were never all that great.... Service levels would still be shit.

3) Shouldn't be alarming to anyone, but the thing is in dire need of another major ridership generator.... Gateway is cool & all, but it's not (or shouldn't be) an end-all be-all in that department..... The route's footprint is much too narrow & simply put, there are other routes with better service surrounding the B84..... Doubt Glendale would be enough of an attractant & Ridgewood is even more oversaturated with buses than ENY (Spring Creek & New Lots subsections, specifically speaking) is....

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13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah right, coming from someone that suggests restructuring the B20 to have the B84 take on some foolish semi-circular routing & having commenced in a further defense of it.... You claim to live in the area & that's the best you can come up with.... Just like the B84, what a joke.... This is most certainly about that route & the fact that you're adamant about the thing being not being useless.... Nobody's disputing that it's not filling a demand - which makes it useless :lol:

Don't talk to me about knowledge when you come on here talking about the B13 being a wasted route...

The MTA let you down with the B84, too bad.... To hell with this exchange of posts on here, the riders are talking with their feet... The thing is useless.

Pennsylvania Ave is plague by the horrible service pattern, the B20 is dead past rush hour. Wortman av and points east only need access to the (3). The B83 is the primary route to Broadway Junction by the amount of people that get off on van siclen whatever bus is ok. The B13 is a wasted route nobody wants to go to Williamsburg from ENY on the bus. Bushwick is a quicker ride by take the (J) or the (C) to the Junction. Outside of Cypress Hill Houses nobody rides the B13 to gateway

 You don't really have anything backing your opions towards the B84 needing to be cut. Those 3 routes could do better redesigned to streamline Pennsylvania av which should be a major concern.

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8 hours ago, Just New York said:

Pennsylvania Ave is plague by the horrible service pattern, the B20 is dead past rush hour. Wortman av and points east only need access to the (3). The B83 is the primary route to Broadway Junction by the amount of people that get off on van siclen whatever bus is ok. The B13 is a wasted route nobody wants to go to Williamsburg from ENY on the bus. Bushwick is a quicker ride by take the (J) or the (C) to the Junction. Outside of Cypress Hill Houses nobody rides the B13 to gateway

 You don't really have anything backing your opions towards the B84 needing to be cut. Those 3 routes could do better redesigned to streamline Pennsylvania av which should be a major concern.

...except you haven't made a cogent argument yet for keeping it around.

Juxtaposing the [lackadaisical usage of the B84] in with the [issues plaguing the Penn. routes (B20/B83)] isn't a supporting argument.... Declaring that musical chairs should be played with other routes isn't a supporting argument.... Go somewhere with this red herring fallacy....

The MTA's own ridership stats since the route's inception, by itself, is enough to support getting rid of the thing..... Don't bother conveying that there's this untapped ridership to be had either, because there's no proof of it.... If the route was so in demand & sought after, then it would have accumulated far more riders than what it currently garners... Fact of the matter is, people that are snatching up those homes out there are driving & I can't say I exactly blame them..... The residents in & around the area aren't considering what's supposed to be "their" bus - that's all the "backing" that's needed... There isn't any good in having a bus route around if any significant collective of patrons are refusing to consider embarking on it...

Furthermore, your assertion of the B13 is myopic & utterly ridiculous..... So since Brooklynites living in ENY aren't riding the thing to its other end terminal, that makes the thing wasteful? Also, this notion that it's only the Cypress Hill folks taking B13's to Gateway is a straight up lie... The B83 having been extended to the mall hasn't taken away that much ridership from off the B13 to the mall.....

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23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...except you haven't made a cogent argument yet for keeping it around.

Juxtaposing the [lackadaisical usage of the B84] in with the [issues plaguing the Penn. routes (B20/B83)] isn't a supporting argument.... Declaring that musical chairs should be played with other routes isn't a supporting argument.... Go somewhere with this red herring fallacy....

The MTA's own ridership stats since the route's inception, by itself, is enough to support getting rid of the thing..... Don't bother conveying that there's this untapped ridership to be had either, because there's no proof of it.... If the route was so in demand & sought after, then it would have accumulated far more riders than what it currently garners... Fact of the matter is, people that are snatching up those homes out there are driving & I can't say I exactly blame them..... The residents in & around the area aren't considering what's supposed to be "their" bus - that's all the "backing" that's needed... There isn't any good in having a bus route around if any significant collective of patrons are refusing to consider embarking on it...

Furthermore, your assertion of the B13 is myopic & utterly ridiculous..... So since Brooklynites living in ENY aren't riding the thing to its other end terminal, that makes the thing wasteful? Also, this notion that it's only the Cypress Hill folks taking B13's to Gateway is a straight up lie... The B83 having been extended to the mall hasn't taken away that much ridership from off the B13 to the mall.....

You don't live in this area it's ok your off a bit stick to Marine Park areas you don't know ENY. The B13 is a feeder for Euclid av nothing more I been off the B84 seeing your talk is not geared towards the current situation in the area. You not a everyday rider of the routes in this area I can tell by the you lack of knowledge. The B83 was chosen because the B6 & B82 are longer enough and would only add run time. The B13 has nothing to do with the B83 being extend there not even in the same rider pool. 

Your jump all over the place and by the way the B24 is a semi circle route that works well for Greenpoint, Maspeth & Williamsburg.  

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1 hour ago, Just New York said:

You don't live in this area it's ok your off a bit stick to Marine Park areas you don't know ENY. The B13 is a feeder for Euclid av nothing more I been off the B84 seeing your talk is not geared towards the current situation in the area. You not a everyday rider of the routes in this area I can tell by the you lack of knowledge. The B83 was chosen because the B6 & B82 are longer enough and would only add run time. The B13 has nothing to do with the B83 being extend there not even in the same rider pool. 

Your jump all over the place and by the way the B24 is a semi circle route that works well for Greenpoint, Maspeth & Williamsburg.  

In other words, you can't conjure up a supporting argument for keeping the B84 around, separate of anything involving altering the Penn. routes.

Not being an everyday rider doesn't eliminate anyone of having an accurate assessment of an area; same age-old lame duck disqualification attempt.... Miss me with these little vague statements, "your talk is not geared towards the current situation in the area", "You not a everyday rider of the routes in this area I can tell by the you lack of knowledge"... If you had all this damn knowledge you're putting on this front like you have, you'd have been laid it out on front street already....

I'll stick to Marine Park, East Flatbush (where I actually live), any other neighborhood in Brooklyn, any other neighborhood in any of the other 4 boroughs, and anywhere else I see fit..... I know more about your area than you appear to think & have had other people that live in the same sector of Brooklyn you claim to, that have concurred with my commentaries about it... If I was so full of shit, I'd have BEEN called out around these parts.... So you really aint hittin on anything like you think you are....

Deflections all over the place out of you..... With the Penn routes, you aren't saying anything different that I haven't said 10 times over on this forum already.... The debunking of your short-sighted assessment of the B13 wasn't an attempt whatsoever at comparing it to the B83.... Now you're resorting to shutting down strawman arguments.... smh.

Look, don't talk to me about being all over the place, when you resort to bringing up:

  • altering the Penn routes to justify keeping the B84 around...
  • the B6 & the B82 as to why the B83 was chosen for the extension to Gateway....
  • the B13 being a so-called "wasted route...
  • the B13 having "nothing to do with the B83

You've got nothing plausible when it comes to keeping the B84... Not your little vague statements, not your little red herrings/deflections, not your attempt to try to minimize the B13, not your B84 proposal, not the comparison of the B24 to your B84 proposal...

Nothing.

Edited by B35 via Church

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48 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

In other words, you can't conjure up a supporting argument for keeping the B84 around, separate of anything involving altering the Penn. routes.

Not being an everyday rider doesn't eliminate anyone of having an accurate assessment of an area; same age-old lame duck disqualification attempt.... Miss me with these little vague statements, "your talk is not geared towards the current situation in the area", "You not a everyday rider of the routes in this area I can tell by the you lack of knowledge"... If you had all this damn knowledge you're putting on this front like you have, you'd have been laid it out on front street already....

I'll stick to Marine Park, East Flatbush (where I actually live), any other neighborhood in Brooklyn, any other neighborhood in any of the other 4 boroughs, and anywhere else I see fit..... I know more about your area than you appear to think & have had other people that live in the same sector of Brooklyn you claim to, that have concurred with my commentaries about it... If I was so full of shit, I'd have BEEN called out around these parts.... So you really aint hittin on anything like you think you are....

Deflections all over the place out of you..... With the Penn routes, you aren't saying anything different that I haven't said 10 times over on this forum already.... The debunking of your short-sighted assessment of the B13 wasn't an attempt whatsoever at comparing it to the B83.... Now you're resorting to shutting down strawman arguments.... smh.

Look, don't talk to me about being all over the place, when you resort to bringing up:

  • altering the Penn routes to justify keeping the B84 around...
  • the B6 & the B82 as to why the B83 was chosen for the extension to Gateway....
  • the B13 being a so-called "wasted route...
  • the B13 having "nothing to do with the B83

You've got nothing plausible when it comes to keeping the B84... Not your little vague statements, not your little red herrings/deflections, not your attempt to try to minimize the B13, not your B84 proposal, not the comparison of the B24 to your B84 proposal...

Nothing.

Lol my proposal are base off of me actually riding the route at varies times of the day. You not from here so you not fimlair with the shops and pockets of businesses in and around New lots. We like to stick to the area of ENY, Brownsville & Canarsie. It would not matter if the B13 goes to Williamsburg or Ridgewood it won't add ridership to gateway, Plus the B13 has a purpose and it serves that Gateway is extra.

The B83 is the Starrett city bus that most of the rider not gateway customers it actually made it worse then it was. The B20 is almost as bad as the B13 it's only around because you need extra service to Broadway Junction. I don't mind you opions because there not based off were I live. That why the B84 was created to help ENY get to gateway only issue it's not serving ENY. But I would not expect you to know that so it's ok bro I'm not losing sleep over somebody from Flatbush talking to me about service in my area.

The B20 has been cut and alter because it cost more then it bring in manly bad routing. While the B83 is packed because nobody wants to transfer at Pennsylvania & New lots or Wortman & Van siclen from the B20.

Edited by Just New York

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2 minutes ago, Just New York said:

Lol my proposal are base off of me actually riding the route at varies times of the day. You not from here so you not fimlair with the shops and pockets of businesses in and around New lots. We like to stick to the area of ENY, Brownsville & Canarsie. It would not matter if the B13 goes to Williamsburg or Ridgewood it won't add ridershipto gateway.

The B83 is the Starrett city bus that most of the rider not gateway customers. The B20 is almost as bad as the B13 it's only around because you need extra service to Broadway Junction. I don't mind you opions because there not based off were I live. That why the B84 was created to help ENY get to gateway only issue it's not serving ENY. But I would not expect you to know that so it's ok bro I'm not losing sleep over somebody from Flatbush talking to me about service in my area.

I’m going to leave this right here. All this fighting and bickering ain’t going to get these ideas across. The last I checked this is a transit board where like minded people have an interest in the way transportation is designed in this city. 

Now, everyone doesn’t have to agree with you as we all have different perspectives on how bus routes are designed. With all that said I’m going to say this. Chill with the arguments. It’s kinda frustrating going back and forth and there’s no end in sight.  

It’s like going through a yield sign. You go through it without stopping and than you hit a car on purpose. This is what’s going on here. 

#fin 

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4 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’m going to leave this right here. All this fighting and bickering ain’t going to get these ideas across. The last I checked this is a transit board where like minded people have an interest in the way transportation is designed in this city. 

Now, everyone doesn’t have to agree with you as we all have different perspectives on how bus routes are designed. With all that said I’m going to say this. Chill with the arguments. It’s kinda frustrating going back and forth and there’s no end in sight.  

It’s like going through a yield sign. You go through it without stopping and than you hit a car on purpose. This is what’s going on here. 

#fin 

It's a debate he entitled to his opinion it's ok to have dialog it won't end the world. I'm Kool as a fan I enjoy different ensign on situations I could be missing something maybe I could not see.

Edited by Just New York

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52 minutes ago, Just New York said:

Lol my proposal are base off of me actually riding the route at varies times of the day. You not from here so you not fimlair with the shops and pockets of businesses in and around New lots. We like to stick to the area of ENY, Brownsville & Canarsie. It would not matter if the B13 goes to Williamsburg or Ridgewood it won't add ridershipto gateway.

The B83 is the Starrett city bus that most of the rider not gateway customers. The B20 is almost as bad as the B13 it's only around because you need extra service to Broadway Junction. I don't mind you opions because there not based off were I live. That why the B84 was created to help ENY get to gateway only issue it's not serving ENY. But I would not expect you to know that so it's ok bro I'm not losing sleep over somebody from Flatbush talking to me about service in my area.

I don't care about what sleep you aren't losing, or if you ever wake up again, quite honestly...

You question where I got some number (nobody knows wtf you're talking about) from, you say I have nothing backing my opinion of getting rid of the B84 - and yet and still you have yet to make a supporting argument for keeping the B84 around.... Status quo isn't helping its case & ENY isn't some magic bullet that's going to make the route some sort of success..... The rest of what you're babbling on about in your never ending drivel of short-sightedness, is fluff.

Furthermore, the B84 was created for no other reason than to provide that newly developed portion of Spring Creek with bus service, Mr. Knowledge......

42 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’m going to leave this right here. All this fighting and bickering ain’t going to get these ideas across. The last I checked this is a transit board where like minded people have an interest in the way transportation is designed in this city. 

Now, everyone doesn’t have to agree with you as we all have different perspectives on how bus routes are designed. With all that said I’m going to say this. Chill with the arguments. It’s kinda frustrating going back and forth and there’s no end in sight.  

It’s like going through a yield sign. You go through it without stopping and than you hit a car on purpose. This is what’s going on here. 

#fin 

I don't mind a good argument; dude wants to defend his turf (which is all this is), let him....

Edited by B35 via Church

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There might be a need for a connection to the Spring Creek Basin area from the west. An earlier plan, and an earlier iteration of the B84, which ran from Canarsie to Ashford Street, was ultimately combined with the B6 (which used to end at Ashford and Wortman). Then the B6 was extended up to the New Lots Avenue (3) station. Why do I bring this up? Might it be time to extend the B6 Local to Spring Creek basin as a branch of the B6, renumbered to B5?

The B5 would basically be an extension of the B6 Local. When the B6 Limited runs, the B5 would only run between Coney Island Avenue and Spring Creek Basin, except for pull-in and pull-out trips that would terminate/originate in Bensonhurst, since unlike the B84, this B5 would be out of Ulmer Park.

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Just what we need another extension of the B/6 to make a bad situation worse.

What is my interest in the B/6 extension when I ride the B/36? 

The answer is that many drivers work a split; that is one half on the B/6 and the other half on the B/36 and when the driver is running late on the B/6, it impacts upon the service on the B/36. When drivers did both halves on the same route then a driver could be put in place during a delay which helped the riders.  As many members of the forum know, I remain adamantly opposed to having drivers do one half of their trip on one route and the other on another route as while it saves pennies and justifies what the pencil people are doing, it hurts ridership. For the same reason, I believe that there is a limit to how long a route should take one way in terms of time as you reach a point where maintaining a decent headway becomes unsustainable as one small delay can snowball into a major problem on the route. 

One last comment concerning the extension of the B/2 (or for that matter the B/31) from Kings Highway Station. There is no market for that service as the B/64 headway during the non peak hours is 20 minutes which means there is no reason to justify another route on Bay Ridge Avenue. The 69th Street Ferry is long, long gone and that was the reason that there were 7 minute headways 50 years ago and now has 20 minute headways.  The extension would serve an area that is almost all residential and where automobile use has skyrocketed as it has in other parts of southern Brooklyn. 

 

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3 hours ago, Interested Rider said:

One last comment concerning the extension of the B/2 (or for that matter the B/31) from Kings Highway Station. There is no market for that service as the B/64 headway during the non peak hours is 20 minutes which means there is no reason to justify another route on Bay Ridge Avenue. The 69th Street Ferry is long, long gone and that was the reason that there were 7 minute headways 50 years ago and now has 20 minute headways.  The extension would serve an area that is almost all residential and where automobile use has skyrocketed as it has in other parts of southern Brooklyn. 

There was a proposal to extend Avenue R service (B2) to Bay Ridge Av, replacing the B64. The routing would have been named the B1 (which served Bay Ridge Av before 2010). The B64 would've went elsewhere. To get a better idea of what site I'm talking about, here is the web page where I got it from: http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/id12.html. The proposal is at the bottom of the page.

Now that its 2018, my version would be updated to retain the B2 designation and bi-directional service on Bay Ridge Av west of 13th Av instead of the routing on the site has. This would provide a route to fill in the service gap in Bensonhurst along 65th Street and in Midwood on Avenue P, improving crosstown service. It would also increase connectivity to the (D) and (N)  in case the (R) at Bay Ridge Avenue is out. The B64 on Bay Ridge Av is still eliminated under this plan, thus having Bay Ridge Avenue with one bus route going to where people want to go (Kings Plaza) without relying on subways through Downtown Brooklyn.

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