Sometimes farebeating is OK, says City Councilman Robert Jackson

[Gorgor]

“I told her to go under,” Jackson said. “I would have gone under.

“Whoever goes to buy a MetroCard should be entitled to a free ride if the machines aren’t working, if there’s no token booth clerk there,” he added.

 

.....were his own words.

 

How else do you interpret someone that specifically directs someone to go under a turnstile without paying the fare....

Don't know about you, but I see that is a deliberate attempt to not pay the fare - which is the very definition of farebeating.

 

So it's no twisting of words... It's putting 2 & 2 together.

 

If you direct someone to engage in an act of farebeating, and you flat out say yourself that you would engage in an act of farebeating.... then you support farebeating....

 

 

The way I define farebeating is that you've already made up your mind to hop it before you even entered the station. That is without a doubt not the case here. He attempted to buy a metrocard, which means that if the MTA hadn't screwed up and had actually done their job at providing working metrocard vending machines, they would've got their $2.25 fare from each of them. If the MTA does not adequately serve riders who want to pay, and the nearest entrance with a station booth is 3 blocks away, then going over is fine.

 

However, I think that it is wrong for the councilman to come out publicly and say this.

[Fan Railer]

The way I define farebeating is that you've already made up your mind to hop it before you even entered the station. That is without a doubt not the case here. He attempted to buy a metrocard, which means that if the MTA hadn't screwed up and had actually done their job at providing working metrocard vending machines, they would've got their $2.25 fare from each of them. If the MTA does not adequately serve riders who want to pay, and the nearest entrance with a station booth is 3 blocks away, then going over is fine.

 

However, I think that it is wrong for the councilman to come out publicly and say this.

 

 

Well, regardless of the motives or intentions, from a legal standpoint, farebeating is still farebeating. Granted, in the situation you have mentioned, it is not entirely the individual's fault for the situation, and the MTA should seriously take better care of its machines (of all the things it SHOULD be taking care of), but it is still not a legitimate excuse to break the law. Its like hearkening this situation to euthanasia. You may want to put someone out of their own misery, and perhaps you have good intentions, but its still murder, and its still illegal, and you can still get into a great deal of trouble for it.

 

If anything good should come from this situation, let's hope that its the MTA making sure their "profit" components stay well maintained.

[INDman]

Gorgor, unless your card is read by the turn style or HEET, you have not paid. Having money on a metro card means nothing. You have not paid until you swipe. No one cares how YOU define fare evasion, not only because your wrong, but you also don't dictate policy. I work for a transit company, I know what the rules are. Also, my previous post was a general statement on fare evasion.

[checkmatechamp13]

1) Nah dude, even if you're not sayin you agree with it or not sayin that there'd be a great likeliness of being forced into such a position, you're backtracking here.... Don't tell me that's not what you're referring to when I'm exposing your retorts to questions regarding your commentary of the original position you brought up (which is this whole what you're "technically" supposed to do, bit).....

 

Kicking this whole sub-discussion off, you said:

- "if the farebox says "Read Error", people always side with the rider, even though technically, you're supposed to pay the fare and apply for a refund"

 

* I replied to that by asking, how do you pay the fare if the farebox keeps giving you a read error....

(thought it was obvious we're talking about by way of the MC... but let's continue with your reply to this)....

 

* You answered that by saying you could pay with coins

(I was gonna ask, suppose the person doesn't have coins - then what.... But I entertained your back-to-the-wall response)

 

* I then asked, so why would you need a refund for if you pay with coins...

 

- You then bring up scenarios (xfer on an MC, student MC, unl. MC) that doesn't support that previous answer of paying with coins....

 

* I reply to that by saying, you explain to the driver that you had a transfer on the card, if you knew you had one on there....

(YOU brought up transfers dude, not me)

 

- Your reply to that is..... That's not what you're talking about.... LMAO.

(I never once ventured off from the direct answers you gave to my inquiries)

 

^^^....and that my friends is how you stymy someone....

You pigeonholed yourself when you decided to bring up that whole coin argument...

(again, even if you're not sayin you agree with it)...

---------------------------

 

Yes, It's not the rider's fault that a farebox is faulty, nor is it the b/o's fault if the case is as such.....

(to add to this, riders are not required to carry a wad of coins around, just in case they come upon a bus w/ a faulty MC reader)

 

Yes, it's a catch-22 situation - you can't pay the fare w/ the MC if the MC reader on the farebox isn't reading properly....

 

* If the b/o sees you made a valiant attempt at trying to pay the fare w/ the MC & he waves you on, that is NOT farebeating.... Your authorization to ride the bus has been granted in this case...

- If the b/o sees you made a valiant attempt at trying to pay the fare & he does not wave you on, it becomes farebeating if you make your way onto the bus from that point on.... Your authorization to ride the bus hasn't been granted in this case....

 

You say your catchphrase is "there's always more space in the back".....

Maybe so, but that does not mean you're entitled, under any circumstances, to avoid paying the fare......

Just b/c you have the ability to do wrong doesn't mean wrong all of a sudden, becomes right....

 

Any position that supports the advocation of breaking the law does not hold water.

 

 

1) What I was referring to was the technical legality of it. If the B/O sees you have a Read Error, and he waves you on, technically you still haven't paid (even if you had a transfer on the MetroCard, you're supposed to use up the transfer). If somebody says "I don't have a MetroCard", and the B/O waves them on, technically it's the same thing. Obviously, there's a difference between somebody who intended to pay, but couldn't, and somebody who had no intention to pay.

 

It's like on the subway when there's a problem with the turnstile and it eats your ride (even if it's a transfer or Student MC, or Unlimited), but doesn't let you through. Technically, if you jump the turnstile and you get caught, you'll get a fine. Technically, what you're supposed to do is pay again (either with a SingleRide or with another ride from a PPR, or by waiting another 18 minutes on the Unlimited).

 

Of course, like I said, I think in both situations, you should be allowed to ride, and they should revise that law to read as such.

 

2) The B/O opened up the doors when nobody was getting off and there were 1 or 2 people waiting to get on. It's the same thing as if they had been waved on (meaning they were authorized to go on, which is the argument you brought up) because it was implied that the person could come in through the back door. It's not like the B/O unlocked the door for somebody to get off and the guy made his way to the back and held the door so he could get on.

[B35 via Church]

What I was referring to was the technical legality of it. If the B/O sees you have a Read Error, and he waves you on, technically you still haven't paid (even if you had a transfer on the MetroCard, you're supposed to use up the transfer). If somebody says "I don't have a MetroCard", and the B/O waves them on, technically it's the same thing.

 

Obviously, there's a difference between somebody who intended to pay, but couldn't, and somebody who had no intention to pay.

 

Yes, you still haven't paid, but it's not "the same thing" like you keep trying to pass it off as.....

You're only pulling on that card as an umbrella to support farebeating.... You are not fooling anyone with that crap...

 

You said it yourself... Obviously there's a difference b/w the intent of someone who pays & who hasn't paid.

Yeah, one is breaking the law, and one isn't....

Saying "I don't have a metrocard" is a farebeating tactic, even if the b/o waves you on....

 

Farebeating is an avoidance of paying the fare....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well I have a question... If you buy an unlimited Express bus card or a regular unlimited Metrocard from a MVM and have your receipt with you and your Metrocard keeps saying "Read Error" what is the general policy?? Each time when I've had a read error problem I have generally been allowed to get on after dipping a few times. The B/O just waived me on. However, I can recall three times in which the B/Os were jerks. One (black guy) suggested that I use a new Metrocard, which I refused to do and kept dipping until it finally read, and then I gave him a look like go **** yourself...

 

Another time I was on the B4 and the B/O (white guy) was a douchebag talking about how I need to pay my fare despite me being willing to produce my receipt as proof of payment. Unlimited Metrocards are essentially like passes because you've ALREADY paid in advance to use the damn cards, so don't go telling me that I need to pay when I've already paid. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be a policy that is enforced by all B/Os... In sum I refused to start another Unlimited Express Bus Plus card and while he gave me a lot of lip I basically told him that since I had my receipt as proof of payment that he could do as he pleased and I got on after having dipped three times and that was the end of it. I mean don't sit here and give me this crappola as if I'm trying to beat the system and I spend $50.00 a week for these friggin' passes. Meanwhile the real farebeaters just walk on and have a seat. That's what pisses me. Punish the people that are really looking to beat the system, not the folks whose Metrocards can't be read because of a messed up machine.

 

I eventually did send the card in later that day because it was clear that the read error would not go away as the card had been messed up from the first bus that I rode thanks to a dirty fare box. I had just started the card that Saturday, so naturally I didn't feel like spending another $50.00 after I had already spent $100.00 on two of them just two days ago. The other issue is the only allows you to buy two Metrocards at once per card every 5 days so that means if you want to use the same credit card and you have to send in your card that you basically have to use another credit card if it's on the weekends especially since they can't release the block on credit cards until Monday at the earliest. They claim that they put a block on the card after the second Metrocard to prevent fraud, but I bought several MetroNorth tickets last week all on my Amex card with no problems, so how many MetroNorth cards can you buy say everyday using the same credit card?

 

The third time I had another B/O (black guy) who was a prick on the BM3 talking about where am I going as if I don't know what bus I'm on. This was basically the second driver that Saturday that gave me a hard time, though eventually he did let me on but he was just being a wise@ss to be funny. I don't care if my card has a read error or not, I don't tolerate any B/O being a wise guy with me because I do lash out just the same and I always have my receipts with me as proof of payment.

[B35 via Church]

Well I have a question... If you buy an unlimited Express bus card or a regular unlimited Metrocard from a MVM and have your receipt with you and your Metrocard keeps saying "Read Error" what is the general policy?? Each time when I've had a read error problem I have generally been allowed to get on after dipping a few times. The B/O just waived me on.

 

However, I can recall three times in which the B/Os were jerks.

 

- One (black guy) suggested that I use a new Metrocard, which I refused to do and kept dipping until it finally read, and then I gave him a look like go **** yourself...

 

- Another time I was on the B4 and the B/O (white guy) was a douchebag talking about how I need to pay my fare despite me being willing to produce my receipt as proof of payment. Unlimited Metrocards are essentially like passes because you've ALREADY paid in advance to use the damn cards, so don't go telling me that I need to pay when I've already paid. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be a policy that is enforced by all B/Os... In sum I refused to start another Unlimited Express Bus Plus card and while he gave me a lot of lip I basically told him that since I had my receipt as proof of payment that he could do as he pleased and I got on after having dipped three times and that was the end of it. I mean don't sit here and give me this crappola as if I'm trying to beat the system and I spend $50.00 a week for these friggin' passes. Meanwhile the real farebeaters just walk on and have a seat. That's what pisses me. Punish the people that are really looking to beat the system, not the folks whose Metrocards can't be read because of a messed up machine.

 

I eventually did send the card in later that day because it was clear that the read error would not go away as the card had been messed up from the first bus that I rode thanks to a dirty fare box. I had just started the card that Saturday, so naturally I didn't feel like spending another $50.00 after I had already spent $100.00 on two of them just two days ago. The other issue is the only allows you to buy two Metrocards at once per card every 5 days so that means if you want to use the same credit card and you have to send in your card that you basically have to use another credit card if it's on the weekends especially since they can't release the block on credit cards until Monday at the earliest.

 

- The third time I had another B/O (black guy) who was a prick on the BM3 talking about where am I going as if I don't know what bus I'm on. This was basically the second driver that Saturday that gave me a hard time, though eventually he did let me on but he was just being a wise@ss to be funny. I don't care if my card has a read error or not, I don't tolerate any B/O being a wise guy with me because I do lash out just the same and I always have my receipts with me as proof of payment.

 

If I try to dip the MC in the farebox & it doesn't read, and the b/o says anything snide, I get off the bus....I see it as, arguing w/ the b/o doesn't isn't gonna make matters better.....

If I try to dip the MC in the farebox & it doesn't read, and the b/o waves me on, I don't worry about it, since I didn't farebeat...

(same thing goes for a bus w/ a broken farebox & the b/o puts his hand over the farebox or w/e... where the b/o waves everyone on)

 

I had a situation where no matter where I used the card, it kept spittin back errors.... that was the card I mailed in, and ended up getting another MC.....

 

 

Anyway, as far your occurrences:

 

1st (situation) - I've had b/o's say that to me too.... I always say, I don't have another metrocard... I just got through getting off the subway or off the ___ (w/e the last bus I used at the time was).... Anyway, after dipping like 5 or 6 times or so, if it doesn't take, and the b/o doesn't seem willing to let me on (even if he says nothing), I get off the bus.....

 

Every single time I wait for the b/o's "okay" (by way of a wave, on) to let me on or not, as he/she is the one with the authority......

 

2nd - Not sayin it's your fault (b/c it isn't), but I wouldn't have bothered w/ producing a receipt..... People in general act like asses when you dangle a receipt (or a coupon) in front of them b/c it's perceived that you're somehow looking for something extra (or some type of benefit) which makes them have to do or say something more than what they have to.... Exactly the reason why I don't go back to the store to "exchange" something, for example.....

 

But yeah, there is no universal policy that b/o's seem to carry out in that regard.....

 

 

3rd - Heavy set, older guy (that kinda looks like judge joe brown) ? I always seem to catch that guy when I take the BM3.

If it is who I think you're talkin about, he's pretty cool with me.... But nonetheless, I get that (attitude) from express bus drivers a lot, and it's usually the white ones.... As long as I pay the fare, I don't care if I don't look like someone that would use an express bus (which is all it is, IMO)... They say things like "this isn't the local", "the local's coming", or "this is the bus to manhattan".... I understand you pretty much gotta treat the riding public like they're stupid, but at the same time, I consider I'm as far away from that matrix as possible......

[checkmatechamp13]

Yes, you still haven't paid, but it's not "the same thing" like you keep trying to pass it off as.....

You're only pulling on that card as an umbrella to support farebeating.... You are not fooling anyone with that crap...

 

You said it yourself... Obviously there's a difference b/w the intent of someone who pays & who hasn't paid.

Yeah, one is breaking the law, and one isn't....

Saying "I don't have a metrocard" is a farebeating tactic, even if the b/o waves you on....

 

Farebeating is an avoidance of paying the fare....

 

First of all, don't give me that "supporting farebeating" crap. There's a difference between somebody just having to get to wherever they need to go, and they don't have enough money to pay the fare, and somebody coming on with an attitude carrying a cell phone or an iPod in their hand.

 

Second of all, all I'm pointing out is that technically the law doesn't recognize the difference. How come on the subway, you see people getting fined because the turnstile didn't read their MetroCard correctly and ended up taking off a fare without letting them though, so they had to jump it? Or on the +SBS+, you have people getting fined because the machines were all broken, and at the next stop a bunch of inspectors came on? Yeah, neither of those is right, and I agree with the policy on the buses that if they tried to pay and the farebox didn't work, then just let them on, but all I'm saying is that technically it's against the rules. You're the one who brought up the thing about B/Os waving people on, and I'm just saying that technically, if you didn't have the fare deducted from the MetroCard, then it's against the rules, and you come in with this crap about it somehow equating to supporting farebeating.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Anyway, as far your occurrences:

 

1st (situation) - I've had b/o's say that to me too.... I always say, I don't have another metrocard... I just got through getting off the subway or off the ___ (w/e the last bus I used at the time was).... Anyway, after dipping like 5 or 6 times or so, if it doesn't take, and the b/o doesn't seem willing to let me on (even if he says nothing), I get off the bus.....

 

Every single time I wait for the b/o's "okay" (by way of a wave, on) to let me on or not, as he/she is the one with the authority......

 

Well me I'm going to dip and then after about the third time I'm going to look at B/O and say okay what are we going to do here because clearly there is a read error. He's going to make a decision and if it is no then we're going to discuss it because as far as I'm concerned a read error is just that. Doesn't mean the card isn't good. Just means that that particular machine couldn't read it. Usually it is the machine and in those cases they won't make you dip but a few times before waving you on. Like I said I've already paid to ride in advance so it is just a matter of the machine recognizing my pass. That's how I see it.

 

2nd - Not sayin it's your fault (b/c it isn't), but I wouldn't have bothered w/ producing a receipt..... People in general act like asses when you dangle a receipt (or a coupon) in front of them b/c it's perceived that you're somehow looking for something extra (or some type of benefit) which makes them have to do or say something more than what they have to.... Exactly the reason why I don't go back to the store to "exchange" something, for example.....

 

But yeah, there is no universal policy that b/o's seem to carry out in that regard.....

 

lol... I only mentioned that I had my receipt when he started making a stink about me needing to pay like it was my fault, but as far as you stepping off of the bus and not exchanging things... LOL Man my attitude is it is my money. Can't tell you how many times Whole Foods has jipped me or I've bought something that I didn't like or wasn't up to my standards. I don't care about attitudes and all of that. i usually don't even bother to go back to Whole Foods... I just call up Amex and they give a refund on the spot. Same thing with this... The gets my $50.00 regardless of how much or how little I use the unlimited pass, so it's like okay I paid for this pass and now I have to pay for another pass because the other one is defective?? Now if they allowed you to just go to a token booth clerk and get a new one on the spot (which is what should happen) then fine, but those guys already have my money and now I'm going to give them more of my money just to wait for MONTHS for a refund while they sit back and make even more money off of me? Think about it... If you've got thousands of defective Metrocards and each person you get to hold on to their money for a few months and plus you lose a day or two depending on when you send in the card, you can make off quite nicely that way and that's what always pops up in my mind in those situations. It's sad but true. This whole Metrocard program has allowed the to officially rip off the riding public. They give you bonuses with odd amounts on them which allows them to keep the difference if you buy a Pay-Per-Ride and then with the Unlimited Metrocards, they get to keep a day automatically when you report the card lost or stolen or not working.

 

 

3rd - Heavy set, older guy (that kinda looks like judge joe brown) ? I always seem to catch that guy when I take the BM3.

If it is who I think you're talkin about, he's pretty cool with me.... But nonetheless, I get that (attitude) from express bus drivers a lot, and it's usually the white ones.... As long as I pay the fare, I don't care if I don't look like someone that would use an express bus (which is all it is, IMO)... They say things like "this isn't the local", "the local's coming", or "this is the bus to manhattan".... I understand you pretty much gotta treat the riding public like they're stupid, but at the same time, I consider I'm as far away from that matrix as possible......

 

 

The thing is I don't use the BM3 that often to be considered a regular and that's really what it is on the express buses. Now I've been using the BM3 for a good 6 years now, but I only use it maybe once or twice every three weeks or so which isn't much, but I do occasionally get the same guys. The guy that I had knew I was an express bus rider. He just wanted to take the opportunity to be a prick because my card wasn't working and annoy me because he asked where I was getting off at and I said last stop and then I rang the bell later on and requested the next to last stop and he said "I thought you wanted the last stop" and I said "last stop, next to last stop, same thing", as if to say it isn't important either way and he startled chuckling but a chuckle like a B/O being a wise @ss. With me though I'm not stepping off of anywhere. Why should you step off for? I mean I'm an express bus rider and I know the whole game and I've got places to be so I am not waiting another hour for the next BM3 and arriving late for my appointment with my barber. I learned from a colleague of mine that when you insist on things, 9 times out of 10 you get your way. It's not about being rude per se but more like a sense of entitlement if you may. You can call it snobbery even, but those sorts of folks that make a stink like that generally get their way. Usually if I have dipped the card three times and it keeps saying read error I become quite irritated and I expect the B/O to waive me on. I mean my attitude is hey listen with the amount of money I spend on the express bus a month I should not have to be hassled because a pass which I've already paid for can't be read. Give me a break. I've got my receipt so there are no games being played. If you display yourself like that unless they're really pricks they'll just waive you on. Last night for example when that BxM1 had that accident a few of the passengers (myself included) insisted that we were either being taken home by the same express bus or another express bus. One lady said I'm not taking the city bus. I paid $5.50 for a reason and I said to her yeah same here.

[checkmatechamp13]

They give you bonuses with odd amounts on them which allows them to keep the difference if you buy a Pay-Per-Ride and then with the Unlimited Metrocards, they get to keep a day automatically when you report the card lost or stolen or not working.

 

 

With the Pay-Per-Rides, you can just transfer the money onto another Pay-Per-Ride. Either that, or just top it off (if you're like $0.20 short of a bus ride, add $0.20 and then get rid of the MetroCard). Technically, there are ways to get even amounts (I think $21.03 would get you 10 local bus rides), but then it gets complicated if you use both the local and express bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

With the Pay-Per-Rides, you can just transfer the money onto another Pay-Per-Ride. Either that, or just top it off (if you're like $0.20 short of a bus ride, add $0.20 and then get rid of the MetroCard). Technically, there are ways to get even amounts (I think $21.03 would get you 10 local bus rides), but then it gets complicated if you use both the local and express bus.

 

 

Probably true, but they don't allow you to add odd amounts using the MVM, so it's like why bother giving us stupid amounts when we can add stupid amounts to make the amounts make sense... That's a rhetorical question of course. Most folks aren't going through the hassle of transferring amounts and all of that.

[B35 via Church]

First of all, don't give me that "supporting farebeating" crap. There's a difference between somebody just having to get to wherever they need to go, and they don't have enough money to pay the fare, and somebody coming on with an attitude carrying a cell phone or an iPod in their hand.

 

Second of all, all I'm pointing out is that technically the law doesn't recognize the difference.

 

How come on the subway, you see people getting fined because the turnstile didn't read their MetroCard correctly and ended up taking off a fare without letting them though, so they had to jump it? Or on the +SBS+, you have people getting fined because the machines were all broken, and at the next stop a bunch of inspectors came on?

 

Yeah, neither of those is right, and I agree with the policy on the buses that if they tried to pay and the farebox didn't work, then just let them on, but all I'm saying is that technically it's against the rules.

 

You're the one who brought up the thing about B/Os waving people on, and I'm just saying that technically, if you didn't have the fare deducted from the MetroCard, then it's against the rules, and you come in with this crap about it somehow equating to supporting farebeating.

 

After all this time in this discussion, now you wanna be so adamant about not supporting farebeating when you're backed into a corner you can't get out of....

 

.....and GTFOH on that last part... you came in here talking about how it's the same thing if:

[the b/o opens the back doors to let someone on the bus (due to the bus being so packed in the front where someone couldn't get on)] & [the b/o waving someone on if they were unable to pay the fare b/c the farebox was messed up] due to the fact that neither person paid the fare.....

 

Comin in here on a high horse like you didn't post situations supporting your stance.... Yeah I brought up b/o's waving people on - during the situation where there's a faulty farebox... The whole nature of this thread deals w/ faulty MVM's & fareboxes & farebeating.... If you attempt to pay your fare, but can't, and the b/o waves you on, that's not farebeating.... If the b/o opens the back doors to let pax. on, it's still farebeating - the b/o made it easier for you to do it.... That b/o would get in trouble for doing that if a supervisor was on his/her bus..... It's not something they're supposed to do.....

 

You wanna take that situation that supports farebeating & equate it to a situation that isn't, and then come on here on some don't give you that supporting farebeating crap.... If it quacks like a duck, it's a goddamn duck.....

 

Same thing with this councilman, he doesn't have to outright say "I support farebeating" to actually support farebeating......

----------

 

As for the rest of what you say in this post....

 

First of all, what "rules" could you possibly be talking about, if you're not talking about farebeating.....

 

Secondly, someone not having enough money to pay the fare is a personal problem.... If the b/o doesn't wave you on after making an attempt to pay the fare, you're not allowed to board that bus.... If the b/o denies you access, he/she has every right to do so..... The other part about the kid w/ the attitude & not even tryna pay the fare, it's obvious that that's farebeating.....

 

Lastly, the 2 scenario's you posted where people ended up getting fined, quite frankly ppl. in those situations deserve to get fined.... You're supposed to have that receipt when you board those SBS buses... if you don't, and you get caught by that eagle team, suffer the consequences.... No one told you to board that bus w/o having that receipt..... and if you get caught jumping the turnstiles (which has long been a farebeating tactic) for that reason you point out, and the cop doesn't buy your story, even if it's true, you're just out of luck.....

 

The law is the law. Period.

[Grand Concourse]

Probably true, but they don't allow you to add odd amounts using the MVM, so it's like why bother giving us stupid amounts when we can add stupid amounts to make the amounts make sense... That's a rhetorical question of course. Most folks aren't going through the hassle of transferring amounts and all of that.

 

On the odd amounts left over, it's so the MTA gets ppl to stop tossing away the cards and hold onto them and eventually 'redeem' them by having all the amounts put into one card. It's a pita, but I can see why they did this. I do agree it is stupid the machine can't do what a human can do in putting the amount of one card into another etc.

=

Well as I mentioned a few months back in February, I had an unlimited ride card, but when I got on the bus I dipped the card in 3 times to the point where I gave up and told the driver I had an unlimited ride card and took my seat. It's not farebeating because the card worked except that bus and I wasn't waiting another 15-20 min for the next bus (if it ran every 5-10 min, I might've taken the next one). There was also a subway stop around the block so I could prove it was an unlimited card if there was some undercover cop there.

[B35 via Church]

lol... I only mentioned that I had my receipt when he started making a stink about me needing to pay like it was my fault, but as far as you stepping off of the bus and not exchanging things... LOL Man my attitude is it is my money. Can't tell you how many times Whole Foods has jipped me or I've bought something that I didn't like or wasn't up to my standards. I don't care about attitudes and all of that. i usually don't even bother to go back to Whole Foods... I just call up Amex and they give a refund on the spot. Same thing with this... The gets my $50.00 regardless of how much or how little I use the unlimited pass, so it's like okay I paid for this pass and now I have to pay for another pass because the other one is defective?? Now if they allowed you to just go to a token booth clerk and get a new one on the spot (which is what should happen) then fine, but those guys already have my money and now I'm going to give them more of my money just to wait for MONTHS for a refund while they sit back and make even more money off of me? Think about it... If you've got thousands of defective Metrocards and each person you get to hold on to their money for a few months and plus you lose a day or two depending on when you send in the card, you can make off quite nicely that way and that's what always pops up in my mind in those situations. It's sad but true. This whole Metrocard program has allowed the to officially rip off the riding public. They give you bonuses with odd amounts on them which allows them to keep the difference if you buy a Pay-Per-Ride and then with the Unlimited Metrocards, they get to keep a day automatically when you report the card lost or stolen or not working.

 

With me though I'm not stepping off of anywhere. Why should you step off for? I mean I'm an express bus rider and I know the whole game and I've got places to be so I am not waiting another hour for the next BM3 and arriving late for my appointment with my barber. I learned from a colleague of mine that when you insist on things, 9 times out of 10 you get your way. It's not about being rude per se but more like a sense of entitlement if you may. You can call it snobbery even, but those sorts of folks that make a stink like that generally get their way. Usually if I have dipped the card three times and it keeps saying read error I become quite irritated and I expect the B/O to waive me on

 

I hear you on all of that, and I don't disagree with that train of thought..... But at the same token, I'm not one to cause a scene - Especially with a person who could have my ass detained or arrested.... My good name isn't worth $2.25, $5.50, or however much is on a defective MC (the most I tend to put on a MC is about 40 bucks)..... I don't go into a situation expecting a b/o to be sympathetic b/c more often than not, they usually aren't.... Not that he or she has to, which I can understand.... I'm one to try to find ways around a problem, rather than brow-beating someone into rectifying a problem... I don't like dealing with people no more than I have to.....

[checkmatechamp13]

1) After all this time in this discussion, now you wanna be so adamant about not supporting farebeating when you're backed into a corner you can't get out of....

 

2) .....and GTFOH on that last part... you came in here talking about how it's the same thing if:

[the b/o opens the back doors to let someone on the bus (due to the bus being so packed in the front where someone couldn't get on)] & [the b/o waving someone on if they were unable to pay the fare b/c the farebox was messed up] due to the fact that neither person paid the fare.....

----------

 

3) First of all, what "rules" could you possibly be talking about, if you're not talking about farebeating.....

 

4) Lastly, the 2 scenario's you posted where people ended up getting fined, quite frankly ppl. in those situations deserve to get fined.... You're supposed to have that receipt when you board those SBS buses... if you don't, and you get caught by that eagle team, suffer the consequences.... No one told you to board that bus w/o having that receipt..... and if you get caught jumping the turnstiles (which has long been a farebeating tactic) for that reason you point out, and the cop doesn't buy your story, even if it's true, you're just out of luck.....

 

The law is the law. Period.

 

 

1) Yeah, except I mentioned that's my stance many times before. If you want to equate it to supporting farebeating, that's your right, but I don't equate the two.

 

2) Because in both situations, the person was unable to pay the fare. In one case it's because of a faulty farebox, and in the other case, it's because the MTA doesn't want to run more buses to make it so you don't have to resort to going in through the back.

 

3) When did I say I was talking about anything else?

 

4) And that's my point: They should change the law to be more lenient in those situations. If a machine is broken and you intend to get off at the next stop, buy your ticket, and get back on, they should at least give you the chance to do so, considering it's the MTA's fault for not maintaining them. As for the turnstile, it's the MTA's responsibility to keep them functioning so they accept the fare and let you on. That's what I'm talking about when the law says that technically you have to pay even if the machine that accepts the payment is broken.

 

On the odd amounts left over, it's so the MTA gets ppl to stop tossing away the cards and hold onto them and eventually 'redeem' them by having all the amounts put into one card. It's a pita, but I can see why they did this.

 

 

It's more to get additional revenue from the people who throw their MetroCards away when they still have money on them, because they don't want to be bothered saving the MetroCards and combining them (either that, or they just don't know you're allowed to do that)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I hear you on all of that, and I don't disagree with that train of thought..... But at the same token, I'm not one to cause a scene - Especially with a person who could have my ass detained or arrested.... My good name isn't worth $2.25, $5.50, or however much is on a defective MC (the most I tend to put on a MC is about 40 bucks)..... I don't go into a situation expecting a b/o to be sympathetic b/c more often than not, they usually aren't.... Not that he or she has to, which I can understand.... I'm one to try to find ways around a problem, rather than brow-beating someone into rectifying a problem... I don't like dealing with people no more than I have to.....

 

 

See if I was in your case I would probably do the same thing simply because you can just go and have the money transferred to another card. I mean that's not to say that I make a scene per se. LIke I said I am usually just waived on but if I get a wise @ss I don't make a scene. I just stand my ground which you can certainly do firmly and still not make a scene.

[B35 via Church]

1) Yeah, except I mentioned that's my stance many times before. If you want to equate it to supporting farebeating, that's your right, but I don't equate the two.

 

2) Because in both situations, the person was unable to pay the fare. In one case it's because of a faulty farebox, and in the other case, it's because the MTA doesn't want to run more buses to make it so you don't have to resort to going in through the back.

 

3) When did I say I was talking about anything else?

 

4) And that's my point: They should change the law to be more lenient in those situations. If a machine is broken and you intend to get off at the next stop, buy your ticket, and get back on, they should at least give you the chance to do so, considering it's the MTA's fault for not maintaining them. As for the turnstile, it's the MTA's responsibility to keep them functioning so they accept the fare and let you on. That's what I'm talking about when the law says that technically you have to pay even if the machine that accepts the payment is broken.

 

1) You had ample time to state you don't support farebeating in this thread long before it came to the point of the discussion that it did.....

 

2) Ok, but It's not farebeating when you can't pay the fare due to a broken/faulty farebox.... The intent is not there to not pay the fare....

Why do you think the b/o waves everyone on, on a bus w/ a jacked up farebox? If a cop came on that bus & notices everyone being let on with the authority of the b/o, the cop is not going to sit there & issue a bunch of tickets to everyone (or anyone) for non-payment of fare.....

 

Speaking of which, I never understood the deliberate running of buses w/ broken fareboxes myself, but whatever....

 

3) You made this statement:

"and you come in with this crap about it somehow equating to supporting farebeating"

 

....as if farebeating in & of itself had absolutely squat to do with anything being spoken about.

 

4) You're well within your rights to advocate for the law to be changed.... I could write a book on how many unfair laws we have here in America.... Anyway, all you can do as an honest citizen is to try your best at adhering & following the laws in this country..... A hard pill to swallow is the fact that the law(s), as written, doesn't care about your sympathy or plight.... I don't make excuses or try to find ways around breaking the law.....

[B35 via Church]

See if I was in your case I would probably do the same thing simply because you can just go and have the money transferred to another card. I mean that's not to say that I make a scene per se. LIke I said I am usually just waived on but if I get a wise @ss I don't make a scene. I just stand my ground which you can certainly do firmly and still not make a scene.

 

More often than not, I'm usually waived on also; then again, there's not that many occurrences where I'm in such a situation - Hell, I don't think I can count on two hands how many times I walked off a bus, well period, but especially for that reason.....

 

So you have that trait (holding firm without making a scene), that's good....

Me, my patience in dealing with people is thin, especially if it's over something I deem stupid or trivial... You make a snide remark @ me, things are only gonna escalate if I don't get off that bus (not to the point of physicality b/c I'm not tryna get 7 years for assaulting a b/o.. that's not my style anyway).... Expect all that wise-ass-ness to be flung right back at you, and then some (If I don't suppress my patience, that is).... Rather than having to do that, I move myself from the situation....

 

I think some people have a habit of thinking that there's no other bus along a certain line than the bus you're attempting to board.... I'm like, I don't have to board this bus, and I aint missing out on anything special by riding the bus you're operating....

[7LineFan]

They should change the law to be more lenient in those situations. If a machine is broken and you intend to get off at the next stop, buy your ticket, and get back on, they should at least give you the chance to do so, considering it's the MTA's fault for not maintaining them

 

And then everyone who doesn't have a receipt starts using that excuse. Who can prove them wrong? Even if they are forced to pay the fare by the inspectors, it's a slap on the wrist compared to what they should have been fined.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

More often than not, I'm usually waived on also; then again, there's not that many occurrences where I'm in such a situation - Hell, I don't think I can count on two hands how many times I walked off a bus, well period, but especially for that reason.....

 

So you have that trait (holding firm without making a scene), that's good....

Me, my patience in dealing with people is thin, especially if it's over something I deem stupid or trivial... You make a snide remark @ me, things are only gonna escalate if I don't get off that bus (not to the point of physicality b/c I'm not tryna get 7 years for assaulting a b/o.. that's not my style anyway).... Expect all that wise-ass-ness to be flung right back at you, and then some (If I don't suppress my patience, that is).... Rather than having to do that, I move myself from the situation....

 

I think some people have a habit of thinking that there's no other bus along a certain line than the bus you're attempting to board.... I'm like, I don't have to board this bus, and I aint missing out on anything special by riding the bus you're operating....

 

 

lol...

[checkmatechamp13]

1) You had ample time to state you don't support farebeating in this thread long before it came to the point of the discussion that it did.....

 

2) You made this statement:

"and you come in with this crap about it somehow equating to supporting farebeating"

 

....as if farebeating in & of itself had absolutely squat to do with anything being spoken about.

 

3) You're well within your rights to advocate for the law to be changed.... I could write a book on how many unfair laws we have here in America.... Anyway, all you can do as an honest citizen is to try your best at adhering & following the laws in this country..... A hard pill to swallow is the fact that the law(s), as written, doesn't care about your sympathy or plight.... I don't make excuses or try to find ways around breaking the law.....

 

1) Except that I've mentioned it in other threads what my position was and didn't see the need to bring it up again.

 

2) "Yes, you still haven't paid, but it's not "the same thing" like you keep trying to pass it off as.....

You're only pulling on that card as an umbrella to support farebeating.... You are not fooling anyone with that crap..."

 

I was just pointing out what is technically the rule. I never said I supported it, because I already said I don't agree with it, so no, it doesn't equate to supporting farebeating.

 

3) Well, fortunately for me, I don't live near a subway or +SBS+ route, so problems like that don't affect me. But of course, that still doesn't make it right for the law to be that way.

 

And then everyone who doesn't have a receipt starts using that excuse. Who can prove them wrong? Even if they are forced to pay the fare by the inspectors, it's a slap on the wrist compared to what they should have been fined.

 

Simple. You have somebody tell that B/O "The machines at X stop were all out", and the B/O gives people the chance to pay at the next stop, but if there are fare inspectors waiting at the next stop, the B/O should say "The machines at X stop were all broken", and if the fare inspector comes up to somebody without a ticket, they should ask "Which stop did you get on at?". If the person answers "X stop", then they don't get fined (though the inspector should hold the bus while the people go out and get the ticket).

[B35 via Church]

1) Except that I've mentioned it in other threads what my position was and didn't see the need to bring it up again.

 

2) "Yes, you still haven't paid, but it's not "the same thing" like you keep trying to pass it off as.....

You're only pulling on that card as an umbrella to support farebeating.... You are not fooling anyone with that crap..."

 

I was just pointing out what is technically the rule. I never said I supported it, because I already said I don't agree with it, so no, it doesn't equate to supporting farebeating.

 

3) Well, fortunately for me, I don't live near a subway or +SBS+ route, so problems like that don't affect me. But of course, that still doesn't make it right for the law to be that way.

 

1) Until you got called out on it.....

 

2) Yeah, but you kept saying the two scenarios that were in question as being the same thing...

 

It's misleading to wanna talk about what something "technically' is, and then bring up some occurrence (about that b/o that opened the back door for those 2 ppl. b/c there was no room in the front) that's in support of farebeating, which you didn't have a problem with.... You say you don't see it is as farebeating, but I do.....

 

That's why I never bothered to entertain your whole technical argument.....

 

3) Well in a year or so, I will end up living near an SBS route (B44).... But nonetheless, if I had to rely on a route that ran SBS, I would never take it (the actual SBS bus).... I would always opt for the local. Everytime. No questions asked....

When you live near a route whose LTD is just as slow as the local (B35), that'll have that effect on you......

 

Furthermore, I never said the law was "right"... I said the the law is the law.

[qjtransitmaster]

if my 14 MC goes defective how am I supposed to pay if machine isnt working

[7LineFan]

Simple. You have somebody tell that B/O "The machines at X stop were all out", and the B/O gives people the chance to pay at the next stop, but if there are fare inspectors waiting at the next stop, the B/O should say "The machines at X stop were all broken", and if the fare inspector comes up to somebody without a ticket, they should ask "Which stop did you get on at?". If the person answers "X stop", then they don't get fined (though the inspector should hold the bus while the people go out and get the ticket).

 

 

That doesn't solve the problem at all. What's to stop people from saying that they got on at "X stop" even if they didn't?

[Astoria Line]

If I went to a SBS stop and ALL the machines were broken, then I would just take the local, but thats just me.