Port Authority considering replacing PABT

[BZGuy]

Question, when the new north wing was completed in 1981, were there plans to add additional 26 new bus gates on the 4th floor or were the 26 new bus gates built but wasn't needed?

 

Someone please help me out on this.

There are gates there but they are used as layover gates. They need to be built as "real" gates and put into use ASAP.

 

As far as the flow of buses is concerned, there is a rumor going around that the 3rd Floor will be all NJT and the 4th floor will be for the Private Carriers. Don't know if this is really in the works, just driver's room gossip.

 

Quite frankly the PABT is in a great place but expansion needs to happen. My idea is elimate the car parking on the roof, reinforce and enclose that area and build another ramp to get up there.The AM Rush isn't that bad but the PM Rush is horrible and getting worse by the day. I can't wait until NJTs Neoplan's retire and the NABIs fully take over the 150 lines......the extra buses needed to replace the capacity of the artics will overwhelm gate 213.

 

I still say NJT needs to look at sending buses down to Wall St and perhaps along a Midtown routing to alleviate their crowding in the PABT. Very few people want the GWB, Rockland Coaches is pretty much carrying air on those runs and at ShortLine we have our GWB service but very few get off there....most people get off as the coach cuts down the East Side.

 

As far as the idea to truncate service to Secaucus Jct.....thanks for the joke. NJT Rail can barely handle the amount of people they are dealing with now, much less the tens of thousands that would be added by that plan. Plus I can tell you right now....the commuters from upstate NY and PA won't put up with that....they have a long enough commute, this would just add to it.

[theaveragejoe]

The previous plan for replacing the terminal was to move it to Secaucus. This would have been in conjunction with the extension. It would have taken a lot of traffic out of the tunnel.

 

 

 

 

That is the smartest move as it will let the terminal grow with out being so crammed. It would take a boat load of traffic out of the tunnel and if its planned right for the 7 extension it would work. Plus selling the PABT property would bring at least a billion dollars to help pay for part of the project.

[Tokkemon]

You people have no concept of people traffic management do you? Moving it to Secaucus would be a nightmare on so many levels, I'm amazed you even consider it viable!

[bobtehpanda]

To anyone suggesting GWB as a terminus, I'm pretty sure that any time you save by getting to GWB from Jersey is decimated by the ride on the you have to take downtown (because let's face it, very few people on those buses are looking to go to Riverdale or Inwood)

[bobtehpanda]

That is the smartest move as it will let the terminal grow with out being so crammed. It would take a boat load of traffic out of the tunnel and if its planned right for the 7 extension it would work. Plus selling the PABT property would bring at least a billion dollars to help pay for part of the project.

 

The PA is totally capable of developing/selling its own air rights. They actually sold WTC at market price, unlike say, the Hudson Yards or Atlantic Yards projects. Not only that, but it is possible to keep the bus terminal onsite and expand it while having an office building on top (*cough Penn Plaza cough*)

[BZGuy]

How about fixing the problem instead of dumping people off in Secaucus. You guys don't seem to get that there are alot of commuters coming from Upstate NY and Pennsylvania....dropping off in Secaucus for them to catch NJT Rail is unrealistic. Some of these people are on the bus for 2-3 hours, that kind of connection will dramatically increase their commute times.

And splitting NYC and NJ service is unrealistic also. People will still pack onto the NYC buses.....same issue with sending more buses to the GWB....very few commuters want that end of Manhattan. They want Midtown and Wall Street....that's why the buses go there.

At this point a total overhaul of the area around the Port is due. That building between 40th/41st/Dyer/10th should be demolished to make way for another wing of the PABT....new ramps could be easily adapted to the current one. At some point the PA is gonna do something before we have total gridlock.

[bobtehpanda]

We could also discuss the need for a Lower Manhattan bus terminal but that's dangerous foamer territory right there.

 

It's almost certainly doable to rebuild the terminal in its existing footprint with more efficient utilization of space. Unfortunately, demolishing buildings next to it is certainly not happening, because one of the buildings next door is also 1199/SEIU's headquarters...

[BZGuy]

We could also discuss the need for a Lower Manhattan bus terminal but that's dangerous foamer territory right there.

 

It's almost certainly doable to rebuild the terminal in its existing footprint with more efficient utilization of space. Unfortunately, demolishing buildings next to it is certainly not happening, because one of the buildings next door is also 1199/SEIU's headquarters...

 

Eminent domain is a bitch!

 

In all seriousness, some people are gonna get hurt for it's for the greater good for everybody involved. Myself, I'm 100% sick of it taking 1+ hours just to get into the building in the afternoon. As much as they cry about the environment, having hundreds of MCIs idling  between 4-7pm every weekday isn't environmentally friendly.

 

As far as the Lower Manhattan terminal, I don't know if it's needed. I think the current Wall Street routing most companies use works really well. It can get a bit thuggish as we fight for curbspace but for the most part it works well.

[qjtransitmaster]

How about fixing the problem instead of dumping people off in Secaucus. You guys don't seem to get that there are alot of commuters coming from Upstate NY and Pennsylvania....dropping off in Secaucus for them to catch NJT Rail is unrealistic. Some of these people are on the bus for 2-3 hours, that kind of connection will dramatically increase their commute times.

 

And splitting NYC and NJ service is unrealistic also. People will still pack onto the NYC buses.....same issue with sending more buses to the GWB....very few commuters want that end of Manhattan. They want Midtown and Wall Street....that's why the buses go there.

 

At this point a total overhaul of the area around the Port is due. That building between 40th/41st/Dyer/10th should be demolished to make way for another wing of the PABT....new ramps could be easily adapted to the current one. At some point the PA is gonna do something before we have total gridlock.

 Sending buses via GWB will only work if they continue onward to other parts of manhattan. To be honest I think the GWB terminal should be closed or relocated to 125th where there are actually multiple regional connections available. Or GWB converted into a BRT entrance and hover over the FDR/harlem river allowing buses to completely skip traffic en rte to the east side this is where an elevated full BRT can work.

 

There are gates there but they are used as layover gates. They need to be built as "real" gates and put into use ASAP.

 

As far as the flow of buses is concerned, there is a rumor going around that the 3rd Floor will be all NJT and the 4th floor will be for the Private Carriers. Don't know if this is really in the works, just driver's room gossip.

 

Quite frankly the PABT is in a great place but expansion needs to happen. My idea is elimate the car parking on the roof, reinforce and enclose that area and build another ramp to get up there.The AM Rush isn't that bad but the PM Rush is horrible and getting worse by the day. I can't wait until NJTs Neoplan's retire and the NABIs fully take over the 150 lines......the extra buses needed to replace the capacity of the artics will overwhelm gate 213.

 

I still say NJT needs to look at sending buses down to Wall St and perhaps along a Midtown routing to alleviate their crowding in the PABT. Very few people want the GWB, Rockland Coaches is pretty much carrying air on those runs and at ShortLine we have our GWB service but very few get off there....most people get off as the coach cuts down the East Side.

 

As far as the idea to truncate service to Secaucus Jct.....thanks for the joke. NJT Rail can barely handle the amount of people they are dealing with now, much less the tens of thousands that would be added by that plan. Plus I can tell you right now....the commuters from upstate NY and PA won't put up with that....they have a long enough commute, this would just add to it.

The idea to truncate bus service to secaucus jct would only apply to NJT services ONLY. Not all though but some local or LTD stop X trips or the local variants with X from PABT to cut down on the number of buses. Some diverted to wall street. AND IN BOLD THERE IS WHERE THE DEMAND TRULY IS!!!!! The reason why GWB buses fail is cause there is nothing of interest at the GWB terminal nor work places just ending dead at GWB is why those buses carry air. Have you noticed that many driving via GWB go to the UES or to queens? The only way I see ridership on those GWB runs is to extend them beyond GWB to the UES closed-door via harlem river drive. Have some on 3rd ave/lex some on 5th ave/madison watch the ridership increase on em. With DOT permit some can go to LGA or at least offer a connection to the M60 for the airport as I don't know how many NJ folks actually want LGA especially the northern bergen crowd at rush hour. 

 

As for upstate NY and PA buses those can be unchanged and still go to PABT. But some NJT lines are better off from central NJ just ending at sec jct until PABT can get a capacity boost as PM service blows hard.

[bobtehpanda]

 Sending buses via GWB will only work if they continue onward to other parts of manhattan. To be honest I think the GWB terminal should be closed or relocated to 125th where there are actually multiple regional connections available. Or GWB converted into a BRT entrance and hover over the FDR/harlem river allowing buses to completely skip traffic en rte to the east side this is where an elevated full BRT can work.

 

The idea to truncate bus service to secaucus jct would only apply to NJT services ONLY. Not all though but some local or LTD stop X trips or the local variants with X from PABT to cut down on the number of buses. Some diverted to wall street. AND IN BOLD THERE IS WHERE THE DEMAND TRULY IS!!!!! The reason why GWB buses fail is cause there is nothing of interest at the GWB terminal nor work places just ending dead at GWB is why those buses carry air. Have you noticed that many driving via GWB go to the UES or to queens? The only way I see ridership on those GWB runs is to extend them beyond GWB to the UES closed-door via harlem river drive. Have some on 3rd ave/lex some on 5th ave/madison watch the ridership increase on em. With DOT permit some can go to LGA or at least offer a connection to the M60 for the airport as I don't know how many NJ folks actually want LGA especially the northern bergen crowd at rush hour. 

 

As for upstate NY and PA buses those can be unchanged and still go to PABT. But some NJT lines are better off from central NJ just ending at sec jct until PABT can get a capacity boost.

 

No... to all of it.

 

125th St does not need its bustling retail destroyed for some ugly bus terminal. Midtown Direct trains at Secaucus don't have the capacity to absorb bus passengers. Most importanlty, we are not going to treat bus passengers as second class citizens, just because they live in a place without train tracks.

[qjtransitmaster]

No... to all of it.

 

125th St does not need its bustling retail destroyed for some ugly bus terminal. Midtown Direct trains at Secaucus don't have the capacity to absorb bus passengers. Most importanlty, we are not going to treat bus passengers as second class citizens, just because they live in a place without train tracks.

I see well I guess a bus terminal may not be appropriate but then again GWB terminal is better off having it's roadway extended and turned into a busway. So not being stuck in 495 traffic for hours and being stuffed into a train is considered treating as 2nd class vs sitting there for an hour? Some buses can be redirected to hoboken or hudson waterfront and shift the excess riders onto PATH and some into midtown direct trains or even ferries from there as well.  Note: this only applies to NJT buses. Instead of getting stuck en rte to NYC why not have some services redirected via sec jct to hoboken or port imperial where bus riders can take trains ferries OR PATH.

[BZGuy]

NJT is already promoting a Bus/Ferry combo for those that take the 158. I haven't heard how successful it's is but the fact is that they are at least trying to do something about the crowd.

Secaucus Junction and Hoboken are already overcapacity with the current rail passengers and with no meaningful expansion (thanks Gov. Christie) I don't see how they can absorb the bus crowd.

For now until a plan is conceived about the future of the PABT, I would like to see routes like the 320,163,165,166,167,128,158,159,154,153,126,127,161,190,193,324,137,138,139 and 114/117 go downtown to Wall St to alleviate the pressure on the Port.

Mods....since this has gotten to be more NJ-centric maybe it should be moved to the NJT sub-forum.

[qjtransitmaster]

NJT is already promoting a Bus/Ferry combo for those that take the 158. I haven't heard how successful it's is but the fact is that they are at least trying to do something about the crowd.

 

Secaucus Junction and Hoboken are already overcapacity with the current rail passengers and with no meaningful expansion (thanks Gov. Christie) I don't see how they can absorb the bus crowd.

 

For now until a plan is conceived about the future of the PABT, I would like to see routes like the 320,163,165,166,167,128,158,159,154,153,126,127,161,190,193,324,137,138,139 and 114/117 go downtown to Wall St to alleviate the pressure on the Port.

 

Mods....since this has gotten to be more NJ-centric maybe it should be moved to the NJT sub-forum.

well at hoboken there are also ferries in addition to the PATH!!!!!

[DaTransitMan4608]

What about an underground extension to the PABT? You could build it underneath 9th/10th Avenues so it wouldn't obstruct the ROW. But that's just me.

 

 The idea to truncate bus service to secaucus jct would only apply to NJT services ONLY.

 

As for upstate NY and PA buses those can be unchanged and still go to PABT. But some NJT lines are better off from central NJ just ending at sec jct until PABT can get a capacity boost as PM service blows hard.

You trying to have NJT passengers sending you death threats? You know how they are when it comes to their mass transit esp. the 139 corridor.

 

That in itself is a stupid idea. Let me tell you why.

 

1. I will say this over and over again until God calls me home. NJT PASSENGERS DO NOT LIKE TO TRANSFER. They want a one seat ride to NYC. If they find out they have to get off @ Secaucus for the train, they'll think it's an inconvenience and they'll all just drive into the city, making the traffic in both Tunnels worse than it already is.

 

2. Dumping NYC-bound passengers off at Secaucus and making them take the train in Penn Station is like telling them to "go f**k themselves". Penn Station is already crowded as it is, you trying to turn that place into more of a madhouse @ rush hour?

[Orion VII 4 Life]

What about an underground extension to the PABT? You could build it underneath 9th/10th Avenues so it wouldn't obstruct the ROW. But that's just me.

 

You trying to have NJT passengers sending you death threats? You know how they are when it comes to their mass transit esp. the 139 corridor.

 

That in itself is a stupid idea. Let me tell you why.

 

1. I will say this over and over again until God calls me home. NJT PASSENGERS DO NOT LIKE TO TRANSFER. They want a one seat ride to NYC. If they find out they have to get off @ Secaucus for the train, they'll think it's an inconvenience and they'll all just drive into the city, making the traffic in both Tunnels worse than it already is.

 

2. Dumping NYC-bound passengers off at Secaucus and making them take the train in Penn Station is like telling them to "go f**k themselves". Penn Station is already crowded as it is, you trying to turn that place into more of a madhouse @ rush hour?

Thank you.

[B35 via Church]

1......NJT PASSENGERS DO NOT LIKE TO TRANSFER. They want a one seat ride to NYC. If they find out they have to get off @ Secaucus for the train, they'll think it's an inconvenience and they'll all just drive into the city, making the traffic in both Tunnels worse than it already is.

 

2. Dumping NYC-bound passengers off at Secaucus and making them take the train in Penn Station is like telling them to "go f**k themselves". Penn Station is already crowded as it is, you trying to turn that place into more of a madhouse @ rush hour?

This..... all of it..... every single word of it.

 

Having a heap of NJ commuters from all over the... state, would cause more problems than it would solve....

For New Yorkers and New Jersey patrons......

[qjtransitmaster]

What about an underground extension to the PABT? You could build it underneath 9th/10th Avenues so it wouldn't obstruct the ROW. But that's just me.

 

You trying to have NJT passengers sending you death threats? You know how they are when it comes to their mass transit esp. the 139 corridor.

 

That in itself is a stupid idea. Let me tell you why.

 

1. I will say this over and over again until God calls me home. NJT PASSENGERS DO NOT LIKE TO TRANSFER. They want a one seat ride to NYC. If they find out they have to get off @ Secaucus for the train, they'll think it's an inconvenience and they'll all just drive into the city, making the traffic in both Tunnels worse than it already is.

 

2. Dumping NYC-bound passengers off at Secaucus and making them take the train in Penn Station is like telling them to "go f**k themselves". Penn Station is already crowded as it is, you trying to turn that place into more of a madhouse @ rush hour?

It's better than sitting in traffic for an hour though besides I said it can be temporary till port authority BT gets higher capacity and BRT for the lincoln is expanded for bidirectional PM rush. I did say not all can be dumper at secaucus others would end up at hoboken via boosted 64 service. From there they can take a ferry OR the PATH you didn't read obviously I know penn is crowded which is why it shouldn't be the only relief point. But an underground extension to the PABT would be an excellent idea. Ohh FYI truncating NYC buses in hudson having them stop at secaucus only applies to PM reverse trips after hoboken they DH to PABT and continue their runs this speeds up NYC bound travel till capacity is upgraded.

[bobtehpanda]

Eminent domain is a bitch!

 

In all seriousness, some people are gonna get hurt for it's for the greater good for everybody involved. Myself, I'm 100% sick of it taking 1+ hours just to get into the building in the afternoon. As much as they cry about the environment, having hundreds of MCIs idling  between 4-7pm every weekday isn't environmentally friendly.

 

As far as the Lower Manhattan terminal, I don't know if it's needed. I think the current Wall Street routing most companies use works really well. It can get a bit thuggish as we fight for curbspace but for the most part it works well.

 

Well, yes, but you don't eminent domain the headquarters of the second largest union downstate... possibly even the biggest

 

Politics, you know?

[qjtransitmaster]

Well, yes, but you don't eminent domain the headquarters of the second largest union downstate... possibly even the biggest

 

Politics, you know?

true the lower manhattan buses can use street stops no big deal.

[bobtehpanda]

true the lower manhattan buses can use street stops no big deal.

 

That... had absolutely nothing to do with that chain of conversation.

 

It's better than sitting in traffic for an hour though besides I said it can be temporary till port authority BT gets higher capacity and BRT for the lincoln is expanded for bidirectional PM rush. I did say not all can be dumper at secaucus others would end up at hoboken via boosted 64 service. From there they can take a ferry OR the PATH you didn't read obviously I know penn is crowded which is why it shouldn't be the only relief point. But an underground extension to the PABT would be an excellent idea. Ohh FYI truncating NYC buses in hudson having them stop at secaucus only applies to PM reverse trips after hoboken they DH to PABT and continue their runs this speeds up NYC bound travel till capacity is upgraded.

 

Not, it will not. PATH is completely at capacity. The ferries are at capacity (and expensive as hell to run, too.) Secaucus is at capacity.

 

Unless you want commuters to row their way across the Hudson, there is no way you can relive PABT using something on the Jersey side of the river.

[Cait Sith]

What about an underground extension to the PABT? You could build it underneath 9th/10th Avenues so it wouldn't obstruct the ROW. But that's just me.

 

You trying to have NJT passengers sending you death threats? You know how they are when it comes to their mass transit esp. the 139 corridor.

 

That in itself is a stupid idea. Let me tell you why.

 

1. I will say this over and over again until God calls me home. NJT PASSENGERS DO NOT LIKE TO TRANSFER. They want a one seat ride to NYC. If they find out they have to get off @ Secaucus for the train, they'll think it's an inconvenience and they'll all just drive into the city, making the traffic in both Tunnels worse than it already is.

 

2. Dumping NYC-bound passengers off at Secaucus and making them take the train in Penn Station is like telling them to "go f**k themselves". Penn Station is already crowded as it is, you trying to turn that place into more of a madhouse @ rush hour?

 

 

Thank you.

 

 

This..... all of it..... every single word of it.

 

Having a heap of NJ commuters from all over the... state, would cause more problems than it would solve....

For New Yorkers and New Jersey patrons......

 

 

That... had absolutely nothing to do with that chain of conversation.

 

 

Not, it will not. PATH is completely at capacity. The ferries are at capacity (and expensive as hell to run, too.) Secaucus is at capacity.

 

Unless you want commuters to row their way across the Hudson, there is no way you can relive PABT using something on the Jersey side of the river.

Word to the wise, you are all speaking to a brick wall.

[DaTransitMan4608]

It's better than sitting in traffic for an hour though besides I said it can be temporary till port authority BT gets higher capacity and BRT for the lincoln is expanded for bidirectional PM rush. I did say not all can be dumper at secaucus others would end up at hoboken via boosted 64 service. From there they can take a ferry OR the PATH you didn't read obviously I know penn is crowded which is why it shouldn't be the only relief point. But an underground extension to the PABT would be an excellent idea. Ohh FYI truncating NYC buses in hudson having them stop at secaucus only applies to PM reverse trips after hoboken they DH to PABT and continue their runs this speeds up NYC bound travel till capacity is upgraded.

With your plan to have buses end at Secaucus, that wait's gonna turn from one hour to two hours, then three, and so on and so fourth.

 

FYI I did read what you posted and that's why I responded to it the way I did. You're basically telling me that in order to solve the PABT's capacity problems NJT needs to dump their passengers at Secaucus Junction or Hoboken.

 

The trains are already packed tight during PM rush. Even if you were to make every train coming out of NYC a Multilevel consist, it still wouldn't solve anything. I've seen standees on a Multilevel train before.

 

As for Hoboken, the PATH is already at capacity like bobtehpanda said. What are you gonna do then, clog that up so bad the 126 would need artics and D4500's for every trip?

 

If you knew NYPS was crowded then why would you suggest something that would make it even more crowded?

 

It doesn't matter what time of day you make the buses drop everyone off at Secaucus. It's gonna hurt ridership drastically because people are gonna think NJT treats them as a second option by dumping them on trains. The bottom line is they want PABT.

 

Word to the wise, you are all speaking to a brick wall.

Believe me, Cait I know.

[bobtehpanda]

Word to the wise, you are all speaking to a brick wall.

 

It's the usual, so whatever.

[BZGuy]

Ohh FYI truncating NYC buses in hudson having them stop at secaucus only applies to PM reverse trips after hoboken they DH to PABT and continue their runs this speeds up NYC bound travel till capacity is upgraded.

That makes no sense, why have buses head to Hoboken or Secaucus and then DH to the Port....you might as well let them continue in service like they currently do.

 

There's a lot that can be done in the meantime to mitigate the current problems.

 

#1. Biggest issue the the NYPD and PAPD handling of the bus traffic. 9 times out of 10 when they are out there directing us they make the backup worse that what is should be by sending buses every which way just to get upstairs.

 

#2. The NJT starters need the authority to assign the drivers to trips that need covering. They shouldn't have to beg guys to do different stuff, but be able to tell the drivers what they are gonna run when they get on the gate. That means the drivers need to know all the lines (and variations) their depot covers.

 

#3. I think the idea that been floating of the Private Carriers and NJT being separated needs a closer look. That might alleviate some congestion that happens when the buses have to cross each other at the top of the ramp to enter for the 2/300 gates or the 400 gates.

 

Those 3 ideas would start to speed somethings up if implemented.

[B35 via Church]

It's better than sitting in traffic for an hour though besides I said it can be temporary till port authority BT gets higher capacity and BRT for the lincoln is expanded for bidirectional PM rush. I did say not all can be dumper at secaucus others would end up at hoboken via boosted 64 service. From there they can take a ferry OR the PATH you didn't read obviously I know penn is crowded which is why it shouldn't be the only relief point. But an underground extension to the PABT would be an excellent idea. Ohh FYI truncating NYC buses in hudson having them stop at secaucus only applies to PM reverse trips after hoboken they DH to PABT and continue their runs this speeds up NYC bound travel till capacity is upgraded.

Better for who, exactly? This is what you're not answering.....

 

Word to the wise, you are all speaking to a brick wall.

lol.... That much is not lost upon me...

 

But at the same token, it's up to the rest of us that aren't ignorant (like he is) to relay sensical posts/musings/points-of-views to the rest of the members on here.....

 

With your plan to have buses end at Secaucus, that wait's gonna turn from one hour to two hours, then three, and so on and so fourth.

 

FYI I did read what you posted and that's why I responded to it the way I did.

You're basically telling me that in order to solve the PABT's capacity problems NJT needs to dump their passengers at Secaucus Junction or Hoboken.

 

The trains are already packed tight during PM rush. Even if you were to make every train coming out of NYC a Multilevel consist, it still wouldn't solve anything. I've seen standees on a Multilevel train before.

 

As for Hoboken, the PATH is already at capacity like bobtehpanda said.

What are you gonna do then, clog that up so bad the 126 would need artics and D4500's for every trip?

 

If you knew NYPS was crowded then why would you suggest something that would make it even more crowded?

 

It doesn't matter what time of day you make the buses drop everyone off at Secaucus.

It's gonna hurt ridership drastically because people are gonna think NJT treats them as a second option by dumping them on trains.

The bottom line is they want PABT.

.....and a 1-seat ride to it.... Which, for the commutes they have to endure, are well deserving of it....

 

I'm also of the same ilk that says NJ commuters despise transferring (him being such this self-proclaimed suburban transit expert master should know that).... If some nearby bus route doesn't take them where they want to go on one mode, they're gonna resort to the personal vehicle..... Absolutely right it doesn't matter what time of day, or having riders be dumped off at Hoboken (instead of at Secaucus),  or whatever else he's saying to dance around the fact that these people, by hook or by crook, do not want to transfer after taking a bus directly from their homes.....

 

They're called commuter routes for a reason.....