Funding set for NE Queens bus study by MTA

[Gotham Bus Co.]

And that's precisely the problem... When you don't use a route and look solely at numbers, they don't tell you the whole picture.  All they tell you is that ridership is increasing or decreasing, but they don't explain why.  Ridership is very dependent on the demographics and economics of each neighborhood and this is one thing that the gets luckily.  

 

Are you suggesting that decisions about adds and cuts should be made only by those staffers who happen to be regular riders of the route in question?  If each route needs its own dedicated planner, then the planning staff would become very bloated very quickly.

[NewFlyer 230]

That should happen regardless if the Q34 gets extended eastward or not..... I've said for the longest on here that the Q16 (structure) is the problem out there in NE Queens....

 

 

This is actually one thing that south-of-Flushing Q25/34 riders are worried about (not specifically to bayside mall, but any eastward extension of the route)... It'd mean less service b/w Jamaica & Flushing along parsons & kissena - which is a very legitimate gripe....

 

For all intents & purposes, the Q34 is around mainly b/c it's a Q25 supplement south of Flushing, towards/from Jamaica.... Any increase in ridership on the Q34 if it were to be extended eastward, in conjunction with a loss of ridership on the Q16 remains to be seen....

(I personally don't see it, as Clearview is too car & express bus centric; they generally don't care about commuting to flushing for the , or some other local bus.... Even less so than their next door neighbors to the east (Bay terrace) - whose patrons use the local bus more than they do.....)

The Q16 with its current structure is the only reason why its getting decent usage. As far as Q34 service south of Flushing trust me when the bus reaches Main Street the bus gets empty. There is barely anyone who rides it past there and the people who do mainly get off where the Q25 runs on Linden Place. I would like to see the Q34 service be discontinued from running past Main Street because it will give the MTA a chance to fix up the Q25. The Q34 about 90% of the time bunches with the Q25 and its basically useless if its going to do that. All former Q34 service should be short turned Q25's at Main Street with more LTD arrive added because the Q25's are packed and slow.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Are you suggesting that decisions about adds and cuts should be made only by those staffers who happen to be regular riders of the route in question?  If each route needs its own dedicated planner, then the planning staff would become very bloated very quickly.

No... I'm simply stating that people like you that look only at maps and stats in deciding where buses should go are truly misinformed and ignorant. I asked you if you use any of the routes that you call for cutting to understand ridership patterns?? A simple yes or no would do.  Instead, you run to the stats aspect, as if that determines why a route is underperforming or overachieving.  

[Gotham Bus Co.]

No... I'm simply stating that people like you that look only at maps and stats in deciding where buses should go are truly misinformed and ignorant. I asked you if you use any of the routes that you call for cutting to understand ridership patterns?? A simple yes or no would do.  Instead, you run to the stats aspect, as if that determines why a route is underperforming or overachieving.  

 

No, I don't ride those routes regularly, because I live in a different part of Senator Avella's district — and (contrary to your implication) it is not necessary to be a daily rider of a route to understand ridership patterns or to suggest changes. In fact, Avella himself is seeking route changes even though he probably has never ridden a bus in his adult life, yet you seem okay with that.

[B35 via Church]

The Q16 with its current structure is the only reason why its getting decent usage.

 

As far as Q34 service south of Flushing trust me when the bus reaches Main Street the bus gets empty. There is barely anyone who rides it past there and the people who do mainly get off where the Q25 runs on Linden Place. I would like to see the Q34 service be discontinued from running past Main Street because it will give the MTA a chance to fix up the Q25. The Q34 about 90% of the time bunches with the Q25 and its basically useless if its going to do that. All former Q34 service should be short turned Q25's at Main Street with more LTD arrive added because the Q25's are packed and slow.

Not in clearview & bay terrace, it isn't (which is what I was getting at w/ that comment about its structure; the branching).... Virtually all that ridership in that general section of NE Queens goes to the Q13 & Q28... The Q16 doesn't really start picking up like that until it hits Francis Lewis, towards Flushing....

 

What you're mentioning about the Q34 here is a different discussion (in regards to letting the 25/LTD handle everything along the current 25/34 south of flushing on weekdays)... Even if you cut the 34 south of flushing & extend it eastward, there's nothing that suggests that any increase in ridership would emerge in that specific area (Clearview, Q16 territory) - especially enough to where the MTA would consider altering QM20 service... As for The Bay Terrace, I suppose the MTA would consider that for the 34 or w/e, but it would be rather futile, as not much of anyone takes the heralded Q13 there.... Kinda reminds me of (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall, when it was only the B13 (some coincidence w/ the route number huh; also the Bx13 that serves/ends at Bronx's Gateway Mall) that served it.... Too many ppl driving there (The Bay Terrace; "Bayside mall")......

 

No... I'm simply stating that people like you that look only at maps and stats in deciding where buses should go are truly misinformed and ignorant. I asked you if you use any of the routes that you call for cutting to understand ridership patterns?? A simple yes or no would do.  Instead, you run to the stats aspect, as if that determines why a route is underperforming or overachieving.  

He couldn't have truthfully answered yes to that question, since he was quick to tell you that the decision makers look at what the numbers say.....When you're asking HIM if he uses any of the routes that he's talking about cutting or whatever......

[qjtransitmaster]

Not in clearview & bay terrace, it isn't (which is what I was getting at w/ that comment about its structure; the branching).... Virtually all that ridership in that general section of NE Queens goes to the Q13 & Q28... The Q16 doesn't really start picking up like that until it hits Francis Lewis, towards Flushing....

 

What you're mentioning about the Q34 here is a different discussion (in regards to letting the 25/LTD handle everything along the current 25/34 south of flushing on weekdays)... Even if you cut the 34 south of flushing & extend it eastward, there's nothing that suggests that any increase in ridership would emerge in that specific area (Clearview, Q16 territory) - especially enough to where the MTA would consider altering QM20 service... As for The Bay Terrace, I suppose the MTA would consider that for the 34 or w/e, but it would be rather futile, as not much of anyone takes the heralded Q13 there.... Kinda reminds me of (Brooklyn's) Gateway Mall, when it was only the B13 (some coincidence w/ the route number huh; also the Bx13 that serves/ends at Bronx's Gateway Mall) that served it.... Too many ppl driving there (The Bay Terrace; "Bayside mall")......

 

He couldn't have truthfully answered yes to that question, since he was quick to tell you that the decision makers look at what the numbers say.....When you're asking HIM if he uses any of the routes that he's talking about cutting or whatever......

to bay terrace question is from where? Are those cars coming from?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No, I don't ride those routes regularly, because I live in a different part of Senator Avella's district — and (contrary to your implication) it is not necessary to be a daily rider of a route to understand ridership patterns or to suggest changes. In fact, Avella himself is seeking route changes even though he probably has never ridden a bus in his adult life, yet you seem okay with that.

Yes, I am because he's seeking changes based on the needs of his constituents who are daily riders.

[B35 via Church]

Yes, I am because he's seeking changes based on the needs of his constituents who are daily riders.

Lol.... I was waiting for this type of an answer... That was too easy.

 

to bay terrace question is from where? Are those cars coming from?

Within NE Queens, and other parts of eastern Queens I would fathom...

 

FWIW, even Atlas gets way more ppl. going to that mall by bus than The Bay Terrace does.....

The Bay Terrace strikes me as one of those malls that locals (of the area) drive to & shop at.....

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Yes, I am because he's seeking changes based on the needs of his constituents who are daily riders.

 

My point (in response to your point) is that Avella himself is not a regular rider and thus is NOT qualified to recommend service changes

[Via Garibaldi 8]

My point (in response to your point) is that Avella himself is not a regular rider and thus is NOT qualified to recommend service changes

Are you kidding me? His job is to fight for his constituents who DO ride the bus.  Using that logic, just about all of the politicians that represent their respective neighborhoods would not be "qualified" to recommend service changes, since most of them don't use public transit.  It's not rocket science.  People need to get from point A to point B, and if there is no subway in their neighborhood, then that means they need to rely on either local buses or express buses to get them to their destination.  The neighborhoods that he represents has seen constant growth in residents using public transit and therefore it would make sense for them to request and NEED more service.  If you really live in Queens and Northeast Queens at that, and actually use public transit, you would know how bad things are.  I personally could not live in Northeast Queens because I feel that the frequencies of the express buses stink outside of rush hour, with most lines having hourly service and ending too early on the weekends.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Are you kidding me? His job is to fight for his constituents who DO ride the bus.  Using that logic, just about all of the politicians that represent their respective neighborhoods would not be "qualified" to recommend service changes, since most of them don't use public transit.  It's not rocket science.  People need to get from point A to point B, and if there is no subway in their neighborhood, then that means they need to rely on either local buses or express buses to get them to their destination.  The neighborhoods that he represents has seen constant growth in residents using public transit and therefore it would make sense for them to request and NEED more service.  If you really live in Queens and Northeast Queens at that, and actually use public transit, you would know how bad things are.  I personally could not live in Northeast Queens because I feel that the frequencies of the express buses stink outside of rush hour, with most lines having hourly service and ending too early on the weekends.

The QM2 would be perfect for you. 30 minute frequencies on Weekdays to Manhattan until 5 PM, and to Queens, headways are 30 minutes or less until 9 PM (then every hour). I would love to have that span here in my area (but unfortunately, I don't). 

 

But in all seriousness, I think the QM2 does the job well up there. I mean, the QM20 acts as an alternative (although I sometimes question the varying trends in ridership off peak hours, because one they they could have a good load, and the next they have like few people). I'm not saying ridership sucks, I'm just saying that it's imbalanced.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The QM2 would be perfect for you. 30 minute frequencies on Weekdays to Manhattan until 5 PM, and to Queens, headways are 30 minutes or less until 9 PM (then every hour). I would love to have that span here in my area (but unfortunately, I don't). 

 

But in all seriousness, I think the QM2 does the job well up there. I mean, the QM20 acts as an alternative (although I sometimes question the varying trends in ridership off peak hours, because one they they could have a good load, and the next they have like few people). I'm not saying ridership sucks, I'm just saying that it's imbalanced.

Yeah, if I ever considered living out there, I would have to have access to both of them. Even on Staten Island, most of the time the waits off-peak was every 30 minutes or less.  With that said, I still believe they should get weekend service extended to run later.  Sunday service ends too early on all of the QM lines.  

[NewFlyer 230]

Yeah, if I ever considered living out there, I would have to have access to both of them. Even on Staten Island, most of the time the waits off-peak was every 30 minutes or less. With that said, I still believe they should get weekend service extended to run later. Sunday service ends too early on all of the QM lines.

So you take the bus late at night? The QM5 and QM6 run until 12:30 in morning. The QM2 runs pretty late as well. Most of the express routes in Queens are useless or run in areas where the people can't really afford them.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So you take the bus late at night? The QM5 and QM6 run until 12:30 in morning. The QM2 runs pretty late as well. Most of the express routes in Queens are useless or run in areas where the people can't really afford them.

They aren't useless... The QM2, QM5 and QM6 serve areas in Northeast Queens where there is no subway service, and these areas are upper middle class and can afford the express bus.  During the weekends those buses stop running far too early.  They should run until 22:00 going to the city and 00:00 at a minimum back to Queens, which is the case on Saturdays but not on Sundays, so they would only need to add one more bus on say the QM6 and QM2 since the QM6 goes to the North Shore Towers.  For the most part, most express buses tend to run in areas where the residents can afford them.  It's just a matter of what alternatives those residents have.  For Northeast Queens, the only other alternative that would be quick would be taking the LIRR but that's only if you live near the LIRR.  And to answer your question, yes I use those late night express buses BxM1 and BxM2 to get back to Riverdale, and they always have people on them.  I have never used the QM2 or QM20, but I have used the QM1, QM5 & QM6 quite a few times on the weekends, and they certainly make the trip a lot faster from areas such as Kew Gardens, etc.  I find your comments rather interesting, especially since you've never even used an express bus before.

 

In any event, I think one reason that the is so stingy with express bus service in Queens in general is because the run times are over an hour in most cases, so they're much more likely to end service earlier and try to direct people towards the LIRR.  Meanwhile, most Bronx express buses are generally one hour.  Same situation with Riverdale.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So you take the bus late at night? The QM5 and QM6 run until 12:30 in morning. The QM2 runs pretty late as well. Most of the express routes in Queens are useless or run in areas where the people can't really afford them.

With the exception of one, all the QM's do fairly well, and aren't useless. Sure, they might not get as much ridership off peak hours, but that doesn't make them completely useless. There are some off peak service that could see a slight reduction here and there, but for the most part, they do fairly well.

Yeah, if I ever considered living out there, I would have to have access to both of them. Even on Staten Island, most of the time the waits off-peak was every 30 minutes or less. With that said, I still believe they should get weekend service extended to run later. Sunday service ends too early on all of the QM lines.

Honestly, I think Sunday Servce is well distributed among the three QM's at night. I mean, I think its okay. I don't really think there should be any additions to the service.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I have never used the QM2 or QM20, but I have used the QM1, QM5 & QM6 quite a few times on the weekends, and they certainly make the trip a lot faster from areas such as Kew Gardens, etc. I find your comments rather interesting, especially since you've never even used an express bus before.

The few times I've taken the QM2, I've seen it with 14 riders (that's on a Saturday afternoon). They do okay. I've never taken the QM6, but the QM1 and QM5 (to Manhattan). The QM5 does garner riders, reverse peak service is used well in the afternoon. PM reverse peak service does better than midday service. QM1 service though is either a hit or a miss though.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

With the exception of one, all the QM's do fairly well, and aren't useless. Sure, they might not get as much ridership off peak hours, but that doesn't make them completely useless. There are some off peak service that could see a slight reduction here and there, but for the most part, they do fairly well.

 

Honestly, I think Sunday Servce is well distributed among the three QM's at night. I mean, I think its okay. I don't really think there should be any additions to the service.

I think Northeast Queens should have similar hours that other neighborhoods in NYC have with similar options and income levels.  Staten Island (the richest borough in terms of median househould income) now has 24/7 express bus service.  Several Bronx express buses along with Riverdale run until 00:30 on Sundays. We're only talking about adding one bus on the QM2, and having one on the QM6 since it goes to the NST.  The has noticed that express buses get decent usage on some lines on Sunday nights at 00:00 and later and they should try it out for Northeast Queens as well, on the QM2 especially. I see the QM2's regularly on weekends and most trips have pretty decent loads, which makes we wonder if they'll ever get more than hourly service. Given the areas served by the QM2 in terms of their location and their distance to the LIRR, and their ability to afford the express bus, I would expect the areas of Whitestone, Bay Terrace, Bayside, etc. to continue to see good usage of the QM2 on weekends.  

 

We're basically talking about marketability to neighborhoods in most cases that are upscale/upper middle class and can easily afford the express bus.  It seems like a no brainer to me.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

In any event, I think one reason that the is so stingy with express bus service in Queens in general is because the run times are over an hour in most cases, so they're much more likely to end service earlier and try to direct people towards the LIRR. Meanwhile, most Bronx express buses are generally one hour. Same situation with Riverdale.

The can't be said with the QM24 and QM15

 

In fact, most people in my area drive on the weekends. No one wants to put up with the Q38. If the 24 ran, they would use it. I don't think that could be implemented though until we get some more vocal residents here.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The can't be said with the QM24 and QM15

 

In fact, most people in my area drive on the weekends. No one wants to put up with the Q38. If the 24 ran, they would use it. I don't think that could be implemented though until we get some more vocal residents here.

Yeah well the QM24 is a whole different ballgame.  The folks in Middle Village seem to like things the way that they have them, and since they can drive on weekends, it's evident that they don't care about weekend express bus service.  What happens in your neighborhood would never happen in Riverdale because we have too many Manhattanites, elderly folks and others that don't drive that have the express bus outside of their condos or co-ops and would raise hell if they didn't have weekend service.

[NewFlyer 230]

I was saying most of the routes are pretty useless except the QM1-QM8, QM15, QM20 and QM24/QM25. The other ones such as the QM21, QM18 and QM11 struggle.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was saying most of the routes are pretty useless except the QM1-QM8, QM15, QM20 and QM24/QM25. The other ones such as the QM21, QM18 and QM11 struggle.

The QM21, QM18 and QM11 aren't useless either.  They just go through areas where a large portion of people that currently can't afford them.  That's a whole different story.  Believe me, the doesn't have express buses running around because they like them so much.  Express buses were started because residents in various parts of the city back in the old days were required to pay two fares to get from where their neighborhood to their jobs and the express bus basically eliminated that double fare, but also provided a quicker one seat ride.  Some of these routes have been around for so long that the demographics that they serve have changed significantly from what they were before.  Previous demographics could afford these express buses, but newer demographics can't, so unless something changes, some lines may die out due to low ridership if the economy continues to drag on the way that it has. 

[bobtehpanda]

I think Northeast Queens should have similar hours that other neighborhoods in NYC have with similar options and income levels.  Staten Island (the richest borough in terms of median househould income) now has 24/7 express bus service.  Several Bronx express buses along with Riverdale run until 00:30 on Sundays. We're only talking about adding one bus on the QM2, and having one on the QM6 since it goes to the NST.  The has noticed that express buses get decent usage on some lines on Sunday nights at 00:00 and later and they should try it out for Northeast Queens as well, on the QM2 especially. I see the QM2's regularly on weekends and most trips have pretty decent loads, which makes we wonder if they'll ever get more than hourly service. Given the areas served by the QM2 in terms of their location and their distance to the LIRR, and their ability to afford the express bus, I would expect the areas of Whitestone, Bay Terrace, Bayside, etc. to continue to see good usage of the QM2 on weekends.  

 

We're basically talking about marketability to neighborhoods in most cases that are upscale/upper middle class and can easily afford the express bus.  It seems like a no brainer to me.

 

The thing is, on weekends people who live in Queens tend to stay in Queens, or go out to Brooklyn or Long Island. There's not really a need to go out of the borough since it has multiple centers with bustling retail and restaurant areas. Now, I don't know enough about Staten Island to pass judgement, but I would find it hard to believe that there are areas in Staten Island that have as many opportunities, services, or activities as Queens centers like Rego Park, Forest Hills, Flushing, or Jamaica. There's just a less pressing need.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The thing is, on weekends people who live in Queens tend to stay in Queens, or go out to Brooklyn or Long Island. There's not really a need to go out of the borough since it has multiple centers with bustling retail and restaurant areas. Now, I don't know enough about Staten Island to pass judgement, but I would find it hard to believe that there are areas in Staten Island that have as many opportunities, services, or activities as Queens centers like Rego Park, Forest Hills, Flushing, or Jamaica. There's just a less pressing need.

LOL@Bustling retail and restaurant areas... Yeah and? You can't seriously compare ANY of the outerboroughs in terms of shopping options, eating options, etc. to Manhattan... No way, no how... We had shopping on Staten Island too and restaurants... Look at how many people go to the city on weekends on the X1, X10 and X17... Same thing with Riverdale...

[bobtehpanda]

LOL@Bustling retail and restaurant areas... Yeah and? You can't seriously compare ANY of the outerboroughs in terms of shopping options, eating options, etc. to Manhattan... No way, no how... We had shopping on Staten Island too and restaurants... Look at how many people go to the city on weekends on the X1, X10 and X17... Same thing with Riverdale...

 

If you're looking for non-European food, Manhattan's options are slowly becoming blander and/or more expensive. Most of the stores in Manhattan also have locations in Queens, so it's not as if Queens is some sort of retail-starved borough. (Fun fact: the Queens Center Mall is actually the most profitable in America per sq ft.) In addition, in many cases Nassau is closer and provides options as well.

 

Manhattan's few unique remaining qualities would be Central Park, the museums, and Broadway shows. Other than that, there's no overwhelming need to go to Manhattan to do things on the weekend vs staying in Queens (and in some cases, staying in Queens might actually be better.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If you're looking for non-European food, Manhattan's options are slowly becoming blander and/or more expensive. Most of the stores in Manhattan also have locations in Queens, so it's not as if Queens is some sort of retail-starved borough. (Fun fact: the Queens Center Mall is actually the most profitable in America per sq ft.) In addition, in many cases Nassau is closer and provides options as well.

 

Manhattan's few unique remaining qualities would be Central Park, the museums, and Broadway shows. Other than that, there's no overwhelming need to go to Manhattan to do things on the weekend vs staying in Queens (and in some cases, staying in Queens might actually be better.)

Everyone knows that if you want superb high quality food, you go to Manhattan for the 4 - 5 star restaurants, and if you want real luxury shopping, that's had in Manhattan (i.e. Bloomingdales, Saks).  Now I've gone to Bloomingdales in Short Hills in New Jersey and it was so blah considering how upscale Short Hills is supposed to be ... Nowhere near as good as the Bloomingdales on 3rd Avenue.  I mean the fact of the matter is if you want a Macy's or some garbage, and a cheesy chain, surely that could be found in Queens, but for the real deal, Manhattan still offers the best.  I know we in Riverdale go to Manhattan for a night out or shopping, as we don't have (nor want) all of those annoying big box/chain stores.  We have a few chains here (CVS, Rite-Aid, Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts) and of course every bank you can think of (Chase, BoA, Wells Fargo, HSBC, Capital One, etc.) all within a 5 block radius, but other than that, we pride ourselves on the local Riverdale shops.