MTA: We Can't Stop Subway Overcrowding

[Lance]

First off, of course the subway is overcrowded. As several people have mentioned in this thread alone, there hasn't been significant subway expansion in decades. The most recent construction project that has actually added more capacity to the subway is the Chrystie St connection and the DeKalb Junction rebuild. Both of those wrapped up almost 50 years ago. Every other subway project, even the ones like 63rd Street that take loads off of the 53rd Street line, has either been about replacing some other line (Archer Ave) or creating some type of connection (various station rebuilds). Second Ave will be the first real expansion project since then.

Here's another Pie-in-the-sky idea: What would it take to convert the A division to B division specs? I'm not really familiar with the differences technically but they can't be that dramatic in difference. Certain lines might easily be convertible (esp the Elevateds) while others would take significant capital investment. Point is, if more areas are B division compatible, more track connections can be made and therefore more efficient services. I think it is a great idea to break away from the old three-company system and start merging lines like the NYCTA did with Chrystie Street. 

Besides expanding every IRT station to fit 600 foot trains (some platforms aren't that long if I'm not mistaken) huge chunks of the IRT lines would have to be rebuilt to B-Division standards. That includes the original IRT subway from 145 St to Times Sq/Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge, along with everything that was built before the Dual Contracts, like the entire Lenox Ave line, the Brooklyn IRT from Atlantic Av westward, and the lower portion of the White Plains Rd line in the Bronx. The cost of such a project would be astronomical. Rather than spending billions, if not trillions to fit slightly larger trains onto IRT tracks, that money would be better spent on building brand new lines.

 

I know that there is no third track from Jamaica to Broadway Junction. But what if instead of skip-stop, how about the alternate express runs (i.e. the runs express from Sutphin to Woodhaven & from Crescent to Broadway Junction and the runs express from Woodhaven to Crescent & from Broadway Junction to Myrtle) That might attract more people than the .

Without a third track, those express trains would be stuck waiting behind the locals.

 

The reason the IND first phase almost bankrupted the city is because the IND mostly paralleled lines in developed parts of the city, and the city ended up subsidizing the 5 cent fare. This city continues to grow and there are portions of the city that still lack proper rapid transit facilities. Eventually, the era or 4-track subways will return, but since humanity is a reactive species, it will be too late by the time it does.

That was the point. After the IRT went belly-up and the IND was the only game in town, they'd collect that money back. At least that was the theory. Obviously, it didn't work well in actuality, but whatever.

[MysteriousBtrain]

I know that there is no third track from Jamaica to Broadway Junction. But what if instead of skip-stop, how about the alternate express runs (i.e. the runs express from Sutphin to Woodhaven & from Crescent to Broadway Junction and the runs express from Woodhaven to Crescent & from Broadway Junction to Myrtle) That might attract more people than the .

Remember/Know why the is not running today?

[Union Tpke]

I know that there is no third track from Jamaica to Broadway Junction. But what if instead of skip-stop, how about the alternate express runs (i.e. the runs express from Sutphin to Woodhaven & from Crescent to Broadway Junction and the runs express from Woodhaven to Crescent & from Broadway Junction to Myrtle) That might attract more people than the .

How about a full express?

Remember/Know why the is not running today?

because it was a useless service. It was mostly used by passengers to/from Howard Beach for good service. It wasn't successful because to get to the JFK terminals you would need to transfer to a Port Authority shuttle bus. Back then there was no Air Train.

[Lance]

Remember/Know why the is not running today?

because it was a useless service. It was mostly used by passengers to/from Howard Beach for good service. It wasn't successful because to get to the JFK terminals you would need to transfer to a Port Authority shuttle bus. Back then there was no Air Train.

To expand on that, the JFK express was used by residents of Howard Beach to avoid the people who used the A and CC trains. It was basically an express bus on rails and for the higher fare, JFK Express riders got cars less prone to breaking down and bypassed some of the undesirable neighborhoods the A stopped in. As things turned around in the subway, the usefulness of the JFK Express dwindled, especially with the expansion of all-day express service on Fulton St.

[Woodside7878]

The MTA is looking building a bus rapid transit in the outer-boroughs as a less expensive way to add a subway or El, but as Queens resident seeing the Queens blvd towards the Queensboro Bridge is flooded with traffic. Also other main corridors are pack with traffic during the rush-hours. A select bus service might not be good solution if those SBS routes are headed towards Manhattan.

[Wallyhorse]

It currently costs the MTA $2B to sink a mile of subway into the ground, so that's much less likely than just strengthening the Jamaica El and adding a third track (since the structure actually has room for such a thing).

I wonder how much per mile it would cost to do such as elevated?  Yes, there are the political obstacles, but if you really want to expand and halt overcrowding (like I would with a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El in addition to a full SAS that may be needed if midtown is built up as many think it will and other areas continue to also be built up), that could wind up being the only way to do it that is cost efficient and eliminates road issues.

 

That's also why if we do see a lower SAS and not connected to Nassau, it should be connected to a new tunnel that would run via Schermerhorn Street and what currently is the Transit Museum, joining the and at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and becoming the Fulton Street local in Brooklyn.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

The can't stop anything these days...

Sure they can... They're really good at stopping Lexington Av trains from moving reliably in the morning. 

[bobtehpanda]

I wonder how much per mile it would cost to do such as elevated?  Yes, there are the political obstacles, but if you really want to expand and halt overcrowding (like I would with a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El in addition to a full SAS that may be needed if midtown is built up as many think it will and other areas continue to also be built up), that could wind up being the only way to do it that is cost efficient and eliminates road issues.

 

That's also why if we do see a lower SAS and not connected to Nassau, it should be connected to a new tunnel that would run via Schermerhorn Street and what currently is the Transit Museum, joining the and at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and becoming the Fulton Street local in Brooklyn.

 

Well, for starters, you'd have to pay out money to make sure you're not compromising the structural integrity of buildings by building constant sources of vibration so close to them, and this is before you start factoring lawsuits. You'd also have to condemn a block of buildings to build an elevated transition, since state law requires that getting rid of an acre of parkland requires the restoration of an equivalent acre into parkland somewhere else in New York City.

 

There is no current need to build els or express tracks anywhere. A single pair of tracks designed appropriately and with CBTC signalling can handle 40 TPH. In comparison, the Queens Blvd Line runs 50 TPH during the peak hour. Unless we need more than 80% of Queens Blvd service everywhere in the city (and it's the second busiest trunk-line in the city, mind  you), we do not need more than the SAS in Manhattan, and we certainly don't need a new four-track system anywhere else.

 

Also, no one actually wants to be next to an el, but let's ignore the opinions of the little people in search of wild dreams, right?

[Wallyhorse]

I was simply looking at pure costs per mile, not anything else (but yes, there would be lawsuits from people I'm sure and other factors you noted).

[LTA1992]

First off, of course the subway is overcrowded. As several people have mentioned in this thread alone, there hasn't been significant subway expansion in decades. The most recent construction project that has actually added more capacity to the subway is the Chrystie St connection and the DeKalb Junction rebuild. Both of those wrapped up almost 50 years ago. Every other subway project, even the ones like 63rd Street that take loads off of the 53rd Street line, has either been about replacing some other line (Archer Ave) or creating some type of connection (various station rebuilds). Second Ave will be the first real expansion project since then.

Besides expanding every IRT station to fit 600 foot trains (some platforms aren't that long if I'm not mistaken) huge chunks of the IRT lines would have to be rebuilt to B-Division standards. That includes the original IRT subway from 145 St to Times Sq/Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge, along with everything that was built before the Dual Contracts, like the entire Lenox Ave line, the Brooklyn IRT from Atlantic Av westward, and the lower portion of the White Plains Rd line in the Bronx. The cost of such a project would be astronomical. Rather than spending billions, if not trillions to fit slightly larger trains onto IRT tracks, that money would be better spent on building brand new lines.

 

Without a third track, those express trains would be stuck waiting behind the locals.

 

That was the point. After the IRT went belly-up and the IND was the only game in town, they'd collect that money back. At least that was the theory. Obviously, it didn't work well in actuality, but whatever.

And you know what? Chrystie Street and the new DeKalb Avenue interlockings as well as the 6 Ave Express tracks were components of the 1945 SAS plan. Truth be told, aside from world events that always mess with this citiy's plans for transit expansion, the people and city governemnt are also to blame for us being where we are today. The people for not wanting to pay higher fares, the governemnt for not wanting to risk their election chances by raising it. The terms of the Dual Systems Contracts restricted fare increases to needing to be approved by the government. At least until the private companies leases expired in 1966. 

[Lance]

Well, for starters, you'd have to pay out money to make sure you're not compromising the structural integrity of buildings by building constant sources of vibration so close to them, and this is before you start factoring lawsuits. You'd also have to condemn a block of buildings to build an elevated transition, since state law requires that getting rid of an acre of parkland requires the restoration of an equivalent acre into parkland somewhere else in New York City.

 

There is no current need to build els or express tracks anywhere. A single pair of tracks designed appropriately and with CBTC signalling can handle 40 TPH. In comparison, the Queens Blvd Line runs 50 TPH during the peak hour. Unless we need more than 80% of Queens Blvd service everywhere in the city (and it's the second busiest trunk-line in the city, mind  you), we do not need more than the SAS in Manhattan, and we certainly don't need a new four-track system anywhere else.

 

Also, no one actually wants to be next to an el, but let's ignore the opinions of the little people in search of wild dreams, right?

I don't know why you're still entertaining Wallyhorse's flights of fancy. They have no real basis in reality. Yeah, that's probably a bit harsh, but there's only so many times one can deal with the same ideas pitched over and over again without any consideration as to why they were dismissed the first time.

[bobtehpanda]

I don't know why you're still entertaining Wallyhorse's flights of fancy. They have no real basis in reality. Yeah, that's probably a bit harsh, but there's only so many times one can deal with the same ideas pitched over and over again without any consideration as to why they were dismissed the first time.

 

Something about the foolish broken-recordness of it all irritates me, but yeah, it gets tiring posting the same responses over and over again.

[B35 via Church]

I don't know why you're still entertaining Wallyhorse's flights of fancy. They have no real basis in reality. Yeah, that's probably a bit harsh, but there's only so many times one can deal with the same ideas pitched over and over again without any consideration as to why they were dismissed the first time.

Which is why I consider it spam....