Can we talk about that other other MTA problem now?

[JGMR]

Too lazy to copy/paste in the whole article, so here's a link:

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2015/10/13/can-we-talk-about-that-other-other-mta-problem-now/

 

I agree completely. The MTA's outrageously high construction costs, and also the amount of time it takes them to complete these projects, should be investigated and fixed. Take the Jubilee Line extension in London for example: it went over budget, at the equivalent of over $5 billion (£3.3 billion) for a line roughly 10 miles long and 11 stations, built in about seven years. The stations are beautiful- I think Canary Wharf was compared to a cathedral. Compare that to phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway: $4.5 billion for 2 miles of tunnel and three new stations, and it will have taken around nine years to build when it opens in 2016. When the full 8.5 mile long line opens, if that ever happens, it is predicted to have costed over $17 billion. Compare that to Crossrail, another rail project in London. Admittedly, construction will have costed in the twenty billions when it is complete. However, it'll be almost twice as long as the Second Avenue Line at around 21 km, and will have only taken about 10 years to build.

 

I understand that they have to build around more stuff and under a city with some much taller buildings, but nonetheless, this doesn't justify such a ridiculous cost difference. Something needs to be done to allow the subway to expand at reasonable costs in a reasonable amount of time. Subways are the lifeblood of New York City and the best way to get around, and it'll cripple our region's continued growth if our transit system can't grow with us.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's funny that you're talking about cost overruns because that was a discussion that one of the big wigs (Dr. Michael Horodniceanu, president of Capital Construction) was interviewed about this morning on Good Day NY.  He is overseeing the LIRR East Side Project and oddly enough, oversaw the Fulton Street Project that was also over budget.   He kept yelling about how the cost is higher than expected, but how they well they pay their employees so well and how those costs are a big reason for the overall project costing much more than initially estimated.  I call it total BS.  It isn't all due to employee costs, but ineptness to some degree as well.  I know things happen during a course of construction projects, and yes there are cost overruns, but this is absurd.

[beelinefan]

One thing to remember is that the bedrock under NYC is very though to get through.

[bobtehpanda]

One thing to remember is that the bedrock under NYC is very though to get through.

 

Stronger rock is actually easier to tunnel through, because it's not soft enough to collapse onto you while you construct more tunnel.

[bobtehpanda]

It's funny that you're talking about cost overruns because that was a discussion that one of the big wigs (Dr. Michael Horodniceanu, president of Capital Construction) was interviewed about this morning on Good Day NY.  He is overseeing the LIRR East Side Project and oddly enough, oversaw the Fulton Street Project that was also over budget.   He kept yelling about how the cost is higher than expected, but how they well they pay their employees so well and how those costs are a big reason for the overall project costing much more than initially estimated.  I call it total BS.  It isn't all due to employee costs, but ineptness to some degree as well.  I know things happen during a course of construction projects, and yes there are cost overruns, but this is absurd.

 

The unions here apparently have staffing requirements for projects way above those even in strong-union countries like France and Spain. You've also got companies misbilling apprentices as full workers, which was a whistleblower story in the Post. Then you have the main problem with East Side Access, which is that we're blowing up a very large hole in Manhattan bedrock just so that Metro-North doesn't have to share. In fact, a good portion of it is the LIRR refusing to share space; Harold Interlocking is segregating Amtrak service even though it's not absolutely necessary.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The unions here apparently have staffing requirements for projects way above those even in strong-union countries like France and Spain. You've also got companies misbilling apprentices as full workers, which was a whistleblower story in the Post. Then you have the main problem with East Side Access, which is that we're blowing up a very large hole in Manhattan bedrock just so that Metro-North doesn't have to share. In fact, a good portion of it is the LIRR refusing to share space; Harold Interlocking is segregating Amtrak service even though it's not absolutely necessary.

Well Metro-North riders like myself should not have to share with the LIRR riders. This set up will allow both the LIRR and Metro-North to expand service as needed. There is no question that more service will be needed along the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven lines in the near future. I was complaining at the last Metro-North meeting in Riverdale about how overcrowded some of our rush hour trains are, and I expect that to continue as the economy strengthens.

[R10 2952]

Corruption within the Transit Authority is definitely a factor.  There's been articles written about it on and off for the last 15 years or so.  Some of you MTA apologists should read them...

[N6 Limited]

They could have gotten so much done for the same amount of money. The construction crews leech off the contract as much as possible. They should fine them for time and costs over runs. Or possibly guarantee them the next job if they finish early and under budget.

[Around the Horn]

Well Metro-North riders like myself should not have to share with the LIRR riders. This set up will allow both the LIRR and Metro-North to expand service as needed. There is no question that more service will be needed along the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven lines in the near future. I was complaining at the last Metro-North meeting in Riverdale about how overcrowded some of our rush hour trains are, and I expect that to continue as the economy strengthens.

That is exactly what caused the problem in the first place...

 

It's funny that you're talking about cost overruns because that was a discussion that one of the big wigs (Dr. Michael Horodniceanu, president of Capital Construction) was interviewed about this morning on Good Day NY.  He is overseeing the LIRR East Side Project and oddly enough, oversaw the Fulton Street Project that was also over budget.   He kept yelling about how the cost is higher than expected, but how they well they pay their employees so well and how those costs are a big reason for the overall project costing much more than initially estimated.  I call it total BS.  It isn't all due to employee costs, but ineptness to some degree as well.  I know things happen during a course of construction projects, and yes there are cost overruns, but this is absurd.

 

Then you (and the rest of them) act all surprised when guess what-its delayed because you entitled fools complain like five year olds when they even dare suggest that LIRR share Grand Central...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That is exactly what caused the problem in the first place...

 

 

 

Then you (and the rest of them) act all surprised when guess what-its delayed because you entitled fools complain like five year olds when they even dare suggest that LIRR share Grand Central...

When you pay top dollar like we do, we can be entitled. If they want us to share they can lower the fare. I'm sure the LIRR folks think the same way.

They could have gotten so much done for the same amount of money. The construction crews leech off the contract as much as possible. They should fine them for time and costs over runs. Or possibly guarantee them the next job if they finish early and under budget.

Nothing is guaranteed since everything has to be put out to bid. Otherwise the could be accused of playing favorites which is a no-no.

[Kamen Rider]

​​Harder material is NOT easier to cut through.

 

A TBM burrowing under London is going to have a much easier time crawling through London's clay bed than through solid Manhattan Schist.

 

I would also like to point out the following bits of info about the Jubilee extension the OP left out

 

 

It cuts through a lot of underdeveloped areas (half the reason they built it)

 

is partly above ground, on the far eastern end between Canning Town and Stradford.

 

the well developed areas is does travel though at not at the complex density of Manhattan.

 

in the relatively developed areas is does travel through, it mostly follows the path of the mainline tracks out of Charring Cross.

[bobtehpanda]

Well Metro-North riders like myself should not have to share with the LIRR riders. This set up will allow both the LIRR and Metro-North to expand service as needed. There is no question that more service will be needed along the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven lines in the near future. I was complaining at the last Metro-North meeting in Riverdale about how overcrowded some of our rush hour trains are, and I expect that to continue as the economy strengthens.

 

Grand Central has the most tracks and platforms of any station in the world. Lots of more constrained places share terminal spaces with more service and less available space, and there isn't a good reason as to why the MTA cannot do the same.

 

There are more than enough platforms and tracks. At this point, the main limitation is track into the station, but the LIRR would still be using their own tracks, so it's not really that big of a deal.

​​Harder material is NOT easier to cut through.

 

A TBM burrowing under London is going to have a much easier time crawling through London's clay bed than through solid Manhattan Schist.

 

That depends on what you mean by "easy". If you mean speed of cutting, then yes, it's faster to cut through, but hard-rock TBMs require less equipment than soft-rock TBMs due to the lack of need for a shield.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Grand Central has the most tracks and platforms of any station in the world. Lots of more constrained places share terminal spaces with more service and less available space, and there isn't a good reason as to why the MTA cannot do the same.

 

There are more than enough platforms and tracks. At this point, the main limitation is track into the station, but the LIRR would still be using their own tracks, so it's not really that big of a deal.

Well that may be the case now but I think it's wise for them to have their own area, and Metro-North should continue to have theirs.  Each railroad has their own needs, and both will need more space for expansion of service, so this is a no brainer to me in terms of thinking into the future. 

[bobtehpanda]

Well that may be the case now but I think it's wise for them to have their own area, and Metro-North should continue to have theirs.  Each railroad has their own needs, and both will need more space for expansion of service, so this is a no brainer to me in terms of thinking into the future. 

 

The "sharing" plan would have replaced the dining concourse with a LIRR concourse, with the upper level of tracks for MNR and the lower level of tracks for LIRR. They would've still had separate areas.

 

At this point the main limitation for more service into Manhattan is the tracks leading into the stations and not the physical space in Grand Central itself. Grand Central used to host many more services when it was an intercity terminal.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The "sharing" plan would have replaced the dining concourse with a LIRR concourse, with the upper level of tracks for MNR and the lower level of tracks for LIRR. They would've still had separate areas.

 

At this point the main limitation for more service into Manhattan is the tracks leading into the stations and not the physical space in Grand Central itself. Grand Central used to host many more services when it was an intercity terminal.

Well Grand Central is already a mad house that will become even more crowded when the LIRR opens.  Was just there today refilling my express bus pass.  Insane crowds.  Plus we have Urban Space open now which I frequent for lunch which brings out all of the folks from the offices/financial institutions nearby on Park (JP Morgan Chase, Société Générale, UBS, etc.)

[trainfanrod]

Where would the utica ave line be turned as an El i think personally by ave J and flatlands ave

[Missabassie]

Utica Avenue Line may as well go to Kings Plaza.

[trainfanrod]

Im saying where would it go outside as an El

[bobtehpanda]

Im saying where would it go outside as an El

 

It may not need to. People keep saying that the water table is an issue, but Amsterdam has metro tunnels and the city is literally below sea level and ringed by canals, and Bangkok has a subway despite the fact that monsoon season comes around every year and causes severe flooding problems. Waterproofing design is not hard compared to getting the political will to get everyone to agree to an el.

[trainfanrod]

Everyone is mentioning how it has to become an el at some point and how history wanted an El at ave J

[LTA1992]

Stronger rock is actually easier to tunnel through, because it's not soft enough to collapse onto you while you construct more tunnel.

Actually, the use of a TBM is best through clay which is exactly what makes up most of the soil under London. I spent an entire two days researching TBMs at the tail end of a three month period of modifying my expansion ideas.

 

At any rate, New York City has the terrible luck of NOT being a capital city. That is a big factor when it comes to subway projects. The type of government being the second. Each time London needed a rail project done, it was done and usually on time. In the case of the Grand PAris Express was supplied 30 Billion Euos to build. The construction has already begun with the northward extension of Line 14, Line 11s NE extension was added. Lines 15 and 18 should start soon. All in all, Crossrail 1 should be operational by 2019 and the GPE by 2030. People can say use Manhattan Schist as a nice excuse for cost overruns as well as union labor, but there are places in this world with tougher underground anomolies. The Catacombs of Paris extend all over the city. What the public knows about is just 1 percent of what actually exists. Then, you have remnants of quarrues and other things that have, in the past, forced subway tunnels to be built on stilts.

 

I forgot where I was supposed to be going with this, but the problems go beyond the MTA.

[bobtehpanda]

Actually, the use of a TBM is best through clay which is exactly what makes up most of the soil under London. I spent an entire two days researching TBMs at the tail end of a three month period of modifying my expansion ideas.

 

At any rate, New York City has the terrible luck of NOT being a capital city. That is a big factor when it comes to subway projects. The type of government being the second. Each time London needed a rail project done, it was done and usually on time. In the case of the Grand PAris Express was supplied 30 Billion Euos to build. The construction has already begun with the northward extension of Line 14, Line 11s NE extension was added. Lines 15 and 18 should start soon. All in all, Crossrail 1 should be operational by 2019 and the GPE by 2030. People can say use Manhattan Schist as a nice excuse for cost overruns as well as union labor, but there are places in this world with tougher underground anomolies. The Catacombs of Paris extend all over the city. What the public knows about is just 1 percent of what actually exists. Then, you have remnants of quarrues and other things that have, in the past, forced subway tunnels to be built on stilts.

 

I forgot where I was supposed to be going with this, but the problems go beyond the MTA.

 

It's an MTA problem because the MTA is responsible for vetting costs. Housing and office construction are also subject to the same unions and contractors, but costs in those industries are fine, so I don't see where the hell the MTA is pulling ever-higher and higher figures from.

 

New York not being a capital just means it gets less money than it's supposed to, and even then, that hasn't really been a problem for New York area projects. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Actually, the use of a TBM is best through clay which is exactly what makes up most of the soil under London. I spent an entire two days researching TBMs at the tail end of a three month period of modifying my expansion ideas.

 

At any rate, New York City has the terrible luck of NOT being a capital city. That is a big factor when it comes to subway projects. The type of government being the second. Each time London needed a rail project done, it was done and usually on time. In the case of the Grand PAris Express was supplied 30 Billion Euos to build. The construction has already begun with the northward extension of Line 14, Line 11s NE extension was added. Lines 15 and 18 should start soon. All in all, Crossrail 1 should be operational by 2019 and the GPE by 2030. People can say use Manhattan Schist as a nice excuse for cost overruns as well as union labor, but there are places in this world with tougher underground anomolies. The Catacombs of Paris extend all over the city. What the public knows about is just 1 percent of what actually exists. Then, you have remnants of quarrues and other things that have, in the past, forced subway tunnels to be built on stilts.

 

I forgot where I was supposed to be going with this, but the problems go beyond the MTA.

Even though it isn't the capital of NY, NYC is still the financial powerhouse not only of NY and the US, but of the world to some extent, and for that reason it has plenty of pull.  When those on Wall Street and to some extent along Park and 6th Avenues talk, the politicians listen.  They don't have much of a choice but to.  That's where most of the financial institutions are these days.  Outside of Downtown and the Wall Street area, the big banks and old hedge fund companies are all along Park Avenue, and other financial institutions are along 6th.