Bx6 SBS?

[MysteriousBtrain]

Yeah well that used to be the case. They're building some sort of residential housing over there now and that stop before Melrose seems to get a lot more action now. Seems like they're cleaning up a lot around there just from over the summer, though it still the ghetto, but they even opened a Starbucks down there (lol) so there is definitely things happening down there, though I wouldn't dare say it's gentrification.

I'm actually taking a little walk on 161 and 163 and I can say the following things:

The courthouse and Morris stops can definitely be combined if the MTA wanted to do so.

The area west of Yankees Stadium can definitely go. If anything, extend the Bx46 to odgen Av if Highbridge residents want to be bitchy.

Park Av can merge with the nearby Melrose Av stop. Same for the Elton Av stop (but with Third Av instead)

Trinity Av I can see staying because of the hills around that area. Ditto for Tinton av. If the Bx46 get extended to supplement the Bx6, however, these stops would be only for the Bx46, not the Bx6.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm actually taking a little walk on 161 and 163 and I can say the following things:

The courthouse and Morris stops can definitely be combined if the MTA wanted to do so.

The area west of Yankees Stadium can definitely go. If anything, extend the Bx46 to odgen Av if Highbridge residents want to be bitchy.

Park Av can merge with the nearby Melrose Av stop. Same for the Elton Av stop (but with Third Av instead)

Trinity Av I can see staying because of the hills around that area. Ditto for Tinton av. If the Bx46 get extended to supplement the Bx6, however, these stops would be only for the Bx46, not the Bx6.

Yeah but I don't see the extending the Bx46.  They're probably going to use artics (hopefully) and just eliminate a few stops where possible, and there is no way that the stop by the Courthouse is going bye bye.  Too big of a stop.  That's basically the stop folks use to transfer from the Concourse.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Yeah but I don't see the extending the Bx46. They're probably going to use artics (hopefully) and just eliminate a few stops where possible, and there is no way that the stop by the Courthouse is going bye bye. Too big of a stop. That's basically the stop folks use to transfer from the Concourse.

I don't really see the Bx46 being extended either. The extension is more of a dream than a reality. But the courhouse stop is a lot less than a quarter mile from the Morris Av stop. No way two and two will both be SBS stops when the distance between Yankees stadium and Morris Av is less than half a mile. If riders want the concourse, the MTA will likely force straphangers to use Yankees Stadium instead of the courthouse stop..

[tripleeye49]

In this I have the new SBS being called the Bx5 from Riverside Drive / 157th to Bay Plaza, daily 6AM to 10 or 11 PM.

 

When the original plans for extension of SBS came out, I was under the impression that this new SBS in the southern portion of the Bronx would take up at minimum part of the Bx5 route, which is why I am combining the two routes and calling it the Bx5 SBS.

 

Benefits:

• With the combination of the Bx5 & 6 into one SBS service, this allows South Bronx residents a two seat ride (and if you live directly near these lines a one seat ride to major shopping areas within the Bronx, including Bay Plaza)
• Connects to virtually all the major routes getting to just about any area of the Bronx with a transfer.
• Speeds up the commute for passengers living along 161st Street and Story Avenue.
• Provides a one seat ride for those between the two corridors as many passengers transfer between the two current local buses.

 

Stops here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_vaGaU3w91BN4Y61PHJul2hf4zE-q6woR2pdsO13Fc/edit?usp=sharing

 

The Bx13 would be split into the Bx33 and Bx34, with the Bx34 running local from Washington Heights to Hunts Point along 161st Street, 163rd Street and Hunts Point Avenue, and the Bx33 being extended down along several streets to run to Port Morris to the Bronx Greenway.

 

A new Bx17 route would also serve 161st Street as a local bus.  The Bx17 and Bx34 would run every 10 minutes each peak, every 12-15 minutes middays, and weekends.

 

The Bx5 local would run from White Plains Road / Story Avenue to Hunts Point during the day, and when the SBS isn't running extend to Riverside Drive / 157th.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In this I have the new SBS being called the Bx5 from Riverside Drive / 157th to Bay Plaza, daily 6AM to 10 or 11 PM.

 

When the original plans for extension of SBS came out, I was under the impression that this new SBS in the southern portion of the Bronx would take up at minimum part of the Bx5 route, which is why I am combining the two routes and calling it the Bx5 SBS.

 

Benefits:

• With the combination of the Bx5 & 6 into one SBS service, this allows South Bronx residents a two seat ride (and if you live directly near these lines a one seat ride to major shopping areas within the Bronx, including Bay Plaza)
• Connects to virtually all the major routes getting to just about any area of the Bronx with a transfer.
• Speeds up the commute for passengers living along 161st Street and Story Avenue.
• Provides a one seat ride for those between the two corridors as many passengers transfer between the two current local buses.

 

Stops here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_vaGaU3w91BN4Y61PHJul2hf4zE-q6woR2pdsO13Fc/edit?usp=sharing

 

The Bx13 would be split into the Bx33 and Bx34, with the Bx34 running local from Washington Heights to Hunts Point along 161st Street, 163rd Street and Hunts Point Avenue, and the Bx33 being extended down along several streets to run to Port Morris to the Bronx Greenway

 

The Bx5 local would run from White Plains Road / Story Avenue to Hunts Point during the day, and when the SBS isn't running extend to Riverside Drive / 157th.

Oh please... Who exactly needs such trips anyway?  I see lots of Dominicans riding the Bx6 to go to and from Washington Heights back to the Bronx and other Latinos sprinkled in with some blacks and Africans.  They're not looking for some long drawn out trip from what I gather.

[MysteriousBtrain]

In this I have the new SBS being called the Bx5 from Riverside Drive / 157th to Bay Plaza, daily 6AM to 10 or 11 PM.

 

When the original plans for extension of SBS came out, I was under the impression that this new SBS in the southern portion of the Bronx would take up at minimum part of the Bx5 route, which is why I am combining the two routes and calling it the Bx5 SBS.

 

Benefits:

• With the combination of the Bx5 & 6 into one SBS service, this allows South Bronx residents a two seat ride (and if you live directly near these lines a one seat ride to major shopping areas within the Bronx, including Bay Plaza)
• Connects to virtually all the major routes getting to just about any area of the Bronx with a transfer.
• Speeds up the commute for passengers living along 161st Street and Story Avenue.
• Provides a one seat ride for those between the two corridors as many passengers transfer between the two current local buses.

Stops here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n_vaGaU3w91BN4Y61PHJul2hf4zE-q6woR2pdsO13Fc/edit?usp=sharing

 

The Bx13 would be split into the Bx33 and Bx34, with the Bx34 running local from Washington Heights to Hunts Point along 161st Street, 163rd Street and Hunts Point Avenue, and the Bx33 being extended down along several streets to run to Port Morris to the Bronx Greenway

 

The Bx5 local would run from White Plains Road / Story Avenue to Hunts Point during the day, and when the SBS isn't running extend to Riverside Drive / 157th.

The Bx5 dosen't need an SBS. Even if it did, this route is way too long to even work correctly.

[BronxBombers]

Listen, walking one extra short block over to River Avenue isn't going to kill those people.  I would keep the stop at River Avenue heading towards Hunts Point because it benefits those folks coming from Metro-North, which is a long walk, plus you have the subway right above.  Folks coming from the Concourse can simply walk to that stop OR walk to the very next one (Concourse Village West).  There aren't that many stops that can be eliminated anyway because of the hilly terrain, along with the fact that 161st is a main corridor which many streets lead to, along with the businesses, the Courthouses, Boricua College and all of the housing there, so that means that you don't have many other "crosstown" buses nearby along most of the route.  With off board payment and artics, having one stop eliminated would be fine.

 

My point is the two stops at River Av are just for convenience. Part of the sidewalk is blocked by the transfer so people would have to walk on the street which is dangerous. At least with both stops there is makes it easier to catch the bus. It's similar to the other crosstown buses that has two stops on each side of Grand Concourse, for convenient purposes. It also speeds up boarding time since it only has to deal with a smaller crowd on each stops instead of a massive one at Gerard Av like it did before. If the Bx6 was to get LTD or SBS, than maybe the Gerard Av stop can be a local stop. But merging the two stops into one would just cause problems.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

My point is the two stops at River Av are just for convenience. Part of the sidewalk is blocked by the transfer so people would have to walk on the street which is dangerous. At least with both stops there is makes it easier to catch the bus. It's similar to the other crosstown buses that has two stops on each side of Grand Concourse, for convenient purposes. It also speeds up boarding time since it only has to deal with a smaller crowd on each stops instead of a massive one at Gerard Av like it did before. If the Bx6 was to get LTD or SBS, than maybe the Gerard Av stop can be a local stop. But merging the two stops into one would just cause problems.

If those people were more civilized the line would be fine, but they aren't.  The real problem is how long it takes for people to dip and people constantly running up to the bus to get on when the bus is already ready to take off, so with an artic and three entrances/exits, you could easily just have one stop since you don't have that many people getting off, and then other folks can get on accordingly.

[BronxBombers]

If those people were more civilized the line would be fine, but they aren't.  The real problem is how long it takes for people to dip and people constantly running up to the bus to get on when the bus is already ready to take off, so with an artic and three entrances/exits, you could easily just have one stop since you don't have that many people getting off, and then other folks can get on accordingly.

 

People are civilized, I ride that bus daily. People dip their metrocards and go about their day. But that isn't the reason why the stops should be merged. If you have one stop at Yankee Stadium your going to get people running towards the bus all the time which makes boarding time slower.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

People are civilized, I ride that bus daily. People dip their metrocards and go about their day. But that isn't the reason why the stops should be merged. If you have one stop at Yankee Stadium your going to get people running towards the bus all the time which makes boarding time slower.

Yeah but with SBS, boarding times will be faster because those people can't just run towards the bus.  They have to get their ticket and then board, and the drivers are told to keep it moving, so if they don't have the ticket, they'll have to wait for the next bus.  

[tripleeye49]

The Bx5 dosen't need an SBS. Even if it did, this route is way too long to even work correctly.

 

The small portion on Story Avenue maybe not so much, but that corridor is where most people who get off the Bx6 at Hunts Point coming from points west transfer to.  Also the transit planners originally talked about a merged Bx6/Bx5 route.  I simply called it the Bx5.

[tripleeye49]

Well it isn't so much if someone will travel from end to end, but the new connections that people will have will get them to more places within the Bronx.  Not everyone can take the subways to get where they are going, and a route like this will connect to other buses serving areas under served.

 

And yes around major shopping times, there would be people who would travel from the South Bronx to Co-op City for deals.  I know personally people who have taken for example the Bx12 SBS from Washington Heights to Co-Op City just to shop there.

 

For a few years I literally lived across from Yankee Stadium, and for some getting to eastern parts of the Bronx from an area like that would be hell, even with the ability to take the subway, let alone if not.

Unless they do some major restructuring of the Yankee Stadium subway complex, which I doubt, then the River Avenue stop absolutely has to be the select bus stop for it would be very difficult, if not impossible to properly set those machines in a place where people can pay for the fares, and for people to walk safely across that street.  Whereas if the stop(s) are on the west side of River Avenue (directly across from the Stadium), you have ample space for the SBS machines, and people can get on/off the bus safely.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well it isn't so much if someone will travel from end to end, but the new connections that people will have will get them to more places within the Bronx.  Not everyone can take the subways to get where they are going, and a route like this will connect to other buses serving areas under served.

 

And yes around major shopping times, there would be people who would travel from the South Bronx to Co-op City for deals.  I know personally people who have taken for example the Bx12 SBS from Washington Heights to Co-Op City just to shop there.

 

For a few years I literally lived across from Yankee Stadium, and for some getting to eastern parts of the Bronx from an area like that would be hell, even with the ability to take the subway, let alone if not.

 

Unless they do some major restructuring of the Yankee Stadium subway complex, which I doubt, then the River Avenue stop absolutely has to be the select bus stop for it would be very difficult, if not impossible to properly set those machines in a place where people can pay for the fares, and for people to walk safely across that street.  Whereas if the stop(s) are on the west side of River Avenue (directly across from the Stadium), you have ample space for the SBS machines, and people can get on/off the bus safely.

That's another reason I don't see them keeping that other stop... Not enough room...

[tripleeye49]

The current stops though are fine for local service though.  It would be ill advised to consolidate bus stops in that area.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The current stops though are fine for local service though.  It would be ill advised to consolidate bus stops in that area.

One stop isn't going to break the bank.  Besides it would be best to just use that one stop going towards Hunts Point, which is long enough to handle multiple buses.

[DetSMART45]

Yeah but with SBS, boarding times will be faster because those people can't just run towards the bus.  They have to get their ticket and then board, and the drivers are told to keep it moving, so if they don't have the ticket, they'll have to wait for the next bus.  

PROOF.

 

More later, my pizza is cooking.

 

Prepare for a good reaming, i.e. get your K-Y ready.  You almost have a love affair with this whole SBS crap, it's not even funny.

 

AND you don't normally patronize SBS routes to begin with.

 

THIS is going to be fun.

Listen, everyone knows that the NEEDS a 21st century form of payment, but until they get that then yes, SBS is the best that we're going to get to reduce dwell times, which are indeed a BIG problem along several lines.

Nice that your breezed over all of the other arguments I make and concentrate on one.

 

Go back and answer my questions within the rest of that post.

[NewFlyer 230]

If anything I think the Bx6 can use a Limited first before having SBS right away. The Bx46 was the MTA's lame excuse to help the Bx6 without really adding any service on Bx6 . Look how that's turned out. I think even with an extension of the Bx46 that won't help. The MTA needs to improve the route itself. What is wrong with short turning buses at Grand Concourse instead of touching Manhattan?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

If anything I think the Bx6 can use a Limited first before having SBS right away. The Bx46 was the MTA's lame excuse to help the Bx6 without really adding any service on Bx6 . Look how that's turned out. I think even with an extension of the Bx46 that won't help. The MTA needs to improve the route itself. What is wrong with short turning buses at Grand Concourse instead of touching Manhattan?

You're gonna make the riders have to walk several walk to the and . Not a good idea, since many people are going to the subway.

[NewFlyer 230]

You're gonna make the riders have to walk several walk to the and . Not a good idea, since many people are going to the subway.

Well okay but I believe that a short turn involving the Bx6 not running in Manhattan would be good for it. On top of that there needs to be a limited.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Well okay but I believe that a short turn involving the Bx6 not running in Manhattan would be good for it. On top of that there needs to be a limited.

That's why I proposed a local running from Hunts Point Avenue to 161 Street- Yankee Stadium during the rush middays, and early evening weekdays and Saturdays, and Sunday Afternoons, in addition to Bx46 service running to the in order to alleviate the loads on the Bx6. That'll make the farebox recovery of the Bx46 increase, compared to right now.

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Wow. The Bus Rapid Transit is getting highly popular in this city. I'm not a rider of the Bronx buses, but from what I have read so far from the NYCDOT website, this route needs at least a LTD route before being upgraded to SBS or just upgraded to SBS like M60, M86, and S79.

[tripleeye49]

Well okay but I believe that a short turn involving the Bx6 not running in Manhattan would be good for it. On top of that there needs to be a limited.

 

You could do that at Yankee Stadium, maybe, but certain not at Grand Concourse.

[DetSMART45]

Wow. The Bus Rapid Transit is getting highly popular in this city. I'm not a rider of the Bronx buses, but from what I have read so far from the NYCDOT website, this route needs at least a LTD route before being upgraded to SBS or just upgraded to SBS like M60, M86, and S79.

Bwahaha ... "bus rapid transit".  Just a bastardization of what South America came up with and "translated" by US idealists into a whitewash full of money spending and hardly any benefit for the riding public.  But the best part is that it costs "nothing" (quotes are there for a reason) because the federal government has incorporated it into their overall plan for "improving" (yep, purposely there again) primarily air quality and congestion, but it could possibly let anything under the radar it wants to be part of it.  (Kinda like how ADA is.  We'll leave that alone for this discussion.)  Anyways ...

 

The MTA having anything close to TRUE B-R-T would have pedestrian plazas and no auto traffic on all of those bus routes currently and in future under SBS.  There just is not street capacity to do true BRT in NYC.  So what they come up with is their version of "compromise".  Not just the MTA (even they're not even mentioned except for a brief Powerpoint slide on the NBRTI website showing one of the famous Nova artics adorned with SBS wrap) is guilty of this -- LOTS of TAs across America fall prey to this simplistic "solution" to moving the masses.  It sounds terrific on paper, and with the proper person presenting things (almost like the Sham-Wow guy selling cloths you could buy at any retail store) the people will buy it because it "immediately" solves their transit woes.

 

I know you guys hate it when I bring up my area, but this type of thing was sold to us in the form of the Detroit People Mover.  A one-train, one-way loop elevated above the city business district that was hailed as a way to reduce traffic congestion on the streets, get people out of their cars, and be "green" (before that whole idea took hold).  You're online, so do some research into that whole debacle.  It currently runs empty for most of the operating day.  But even in the  days when most of you were just a twinkle in your father's eye (as the saying goes), the idealists sold it to a gullible public.

 

You guys need to do some serious research of what BRT was started as, its purpose and everything it entails.  It is not what the MTA is selling you.

 

BUT:  How about some basic answers to the questions posed in this thread.  Nobody's tackled anything related to how the MTA/DOT has done any improvements since their study over 5 years ago delineating what was wrong.  Nobody's talked about how the route has adapted, not only because of those findings but also because of ridership patterns.  And nobody has answered how if a Limited-Stop supposedly cannot work, how SBS will in its place.

 

Done for now.  (Oh and BTW, not picking on TransitJusticeForAll and his response.  Just used that as the springboard.)

[bobtehpanda]

Once again, all of you seem to think solely about the bus-side of SBS, and not the other rigamarole that goes along with it.

 

One of the core elements of SBS is the DOT slapping bus lanes on the streets, their way of "mitigating" traffic or causing disruption to current traffic/parking issues which they have yet to address.  So take a close look at that angle, and on the surrounding streets which will also be impacted indirectly.

 

Most streets are already very congested. If overall congestion on this one street in a giant street grid is going to be too great, people will distribute throughout the street grid and take alternate trips. (This is a different case from Woodhaven Blvd, where there are very few straight north-south routes between Queens and Brooklyn.) If it is really such an issue, SBS does not necessarily need to have bus lanes (like most of the S79), nor does it need to remove parking. SBS proposals have also been rescinded where parking was more of a concern than faster bus travel (on Merrick Blvd in Queens).

 

Bus lanes are a effective feature, especially when camera enforced, but so is prepayment and Traffic Signal Priority, which is also included in SBS.

 

As I said on the other thread, SBS is only a Limited-Stop route with prepayment attached as an "attractive" feature.  If some of you say that a Limited won't work, then how does that ensure SBS is going to work?  Just because OF prepayment???  If that's the case, MTA could save all of you those millions and implement touchless instead.  If the whole goal is to shorten dwell-time, touchless would be a better investment than spending those millions tearing up streets, disrupting traffic, spending probably close to $250,000 (if not more) per stop, paying for extra traffic/fare enforcement.  PLUS it would also come along with an auditing system to better track customer patterns, putting the onus on the MTA to adjust routes faster, because they'd have additional data.  (That's something the MTA probably doesn't want happening, much like how they seem to ignore BusTime/Clever customer data currently.)

 

Prepayment has sped up boarding times on basically all of the SBS routes that have already been implemented. Even people who have argued against SBS like BrooklynBus have mentioned in the past how prepayment was used to do this. Why is this so controversial to you?

 

In any case, there is an RFP for touchless already out, but it won't be ready for a while due to both funding and technological issues. Do we really want to repeat the Ventra fiasco? Why wait five or ten years for a boarding improvement that we could have today, with something as simple as a machine dispensing paper?

 

How about someone answer this question:

MTA and DOT had Bx6 on their grand "study" of routes back in 2009.  Has anything been done with those findings since those reports were released?  Road improvements?  Bus frequency adjustments?  Route adjustments, including variants where necessary based upon ridership patterns?

 

Keep in mind that in 2009, the city was only authorized to have a single camera-enforced bus lane for every borough. The political conditions at the time meant that actually implementing the network right then and there would've resulted in a diluted, non-camera enforced network that would've had poorer results. This law was only amended this year to expand the amount of camera enforced lanes, so waiting was definitely a better option.

 

Road improvements? If by that, you mean either signal retiming, a couple of those have occurred. If you mean actual road expansion, that's a non-starter in a place as dense as this. Bus frequency has been adjusted on busier routes, and routes have also been expanded since the service cuts in 2010. In fact, the Bx6, the actual route under discussion, had a helper route added some time ago (although how effective the Bx46 has been is up for debate.)

AND you don't normally patronize SBS routes to begin with.

 

This is a really rich argument for you to bring up, since you don't even live here, so you aren't impacted by any changes in bus service or road configurations that happen here.

Since the farebeating problem is so rampant & openly exposed on this forum,why isn't something being done about it? I'm sure that the powers that be at the MTA as well as local politicians read this forum & are aware of this.

 

It's a matter of how much enforcement would cost vs. how much you would get back in revenue. Let's say you slap the farebeaters with $100 fines. If they're too poor to consider paying the fare on the regular, how much luck do you think you're going to have trying to collect fines? And what if they don't pay? Are we just going to throw them into the overcrowded crapshoot that is Rikers?

 

Even if you did ramp up enforcement, police ain't cheap, and the lower the farebeating rate is, the more expensive it is to squeeze out the remaining farebeaters. LA Metro has a prepayment policy, and they tolerate a farebeating rate of 6% because driving it any lower wouldn't be worth the increased revenue.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Bwahaha ... "bus rapid transit".  Just a bastardization of what South America came up with and "translated" by US idealists into a whitewash full of money spending and hardly any benefit for the riding public.  But the best part is that it costs "nothing" (quotes are there for a reason) because the federal government has incorporated it into their overall plan for "improving" (yep, purposely there again) primarily air quality and congestion, but it could possibly let anything under the radar it wants to be part of it.  (Kinda like how ADA is.  We'll leave that alone for this discussion.)  Anyways ...

 

I wouldn't call all BRT's here basterdized. Just look at our Next door neighbor Connecticut. The fastrak bus system greatly improved mobility for many riders throughout the city, since a number of north-south routes in the suburban areas of the city were initiated, service into Hartford became much more reliable, in addition to express bus system, due to the busway. It even opened up new travel markets with the creation of the 928 express bus, which is the only daily full-time service connecting Waterbury to New Britain, or Hartford, without shelling out a ton of money to Peter Pan, or backtracking to New Haven to catch a primarily rush-hour only express bus. Some areas along the former 924 express bus routing now have 7 day a week service instead of rush hour service. It's definitely has helped mobility in the New Britain-Hartford area.