Fulton Street Reliability

[Ramirez1523]

Report from WNYC:

 

Dec 11, 2015  · by Kate Hinds

Despite what A and C riders might think, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority said in an official report Friday that the lines are not crowded, though they have room for improvement.

"Average customer loads and service frequencies are withing New York City Transit loading guidelines," reads the 79-page full line review. There are a couple of exceptions, which the agency says it will address (long headways for Sunday morning C train service and weekday morning A service.) It called service on the C "relatively reliable."

But the MTA's conclusions didn't match the experience of many transit advocates.

"Riders are honestly tired of dealing with crowded platforms and trains," Rebecca Bailin of the Riders Alliance said, "and this review only partially solves their concerns."

In fact, the C has been rated the worst line four years in a row by the Straphangers Campaign. 

In its report, the MTA did outline some upgrades. The agency has identified three stations — Franklin Avenue, 168th Street, and 50th Street — where it could reopen entrances that are currently closed (pending funding availability), which would help relieve crowding. (WNYC has reported on the impact closed stairways have on stations.) And improvements that would upgrade signals are coming — when the MTA's capital plan is eventually passed.

But the MTA did not propose addressing what it says is one of the underlying problems. At 32 miles, the A is the longest line in the system, making it "simply more likely to encounter . . . issues on any given trip than shorter lines," according to the report. 

Other weaknesses: the trains are slower, because the number of areas along the track where they have to slow down for track work is increasing. Plus, C cars are the oldest in the system, and their replacement is not imminent, to say the least. The opening of the South Channel Bridge in Jamaica Bay to maritime traffic "is a major cause of delays" for A train service near the Rockaways. And both lines need improved communications infrastructure, the review said.

Brooklyn resident Danna Johnson, who lives near the Ralph Avenue C train station, said she often uses workarounds for the line because she finds it so unreliable.

"There are times I get on the B25 bus, as opposed to taking the train," she said. "I take the 4." She said she'd also walk several blocks out of her way to the Utica Avenue A train station just "to avoid Ralph Avenue, because of the inconsistency of the C."

"You know it's bad when you have New Yorkers saying they'd rather take the bus," she added.

Transit watcher Ben Kabak summed up his reaction to the report:

 

New York State Sen. Daniel Squadron, who helped spur the MTA to undertake the line review process, said in a statement: "It's good to see some improvements are already on track. Especially peak service adjustments, which began this week. But, it's critical the MTA quickly solve for the bunching, delays, and packed trains the review found."  

The review came out a day after the agency announced a one-day all time subway ridership record.

Read the report below:

 

 

The Full text of the MTA Report: http://www.scribd.com/doc/293042523/AC-LineReview

 

Full Article at: http://www.wnyc.org/story/c-train-service-relatively-reliable/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

LMAO... I think it's hilarious that the female commuter said "You know it's bad when you have New Yorkers saying they'd rather take the bus".  The is fairly infrequent overall, and the line certainly is neglected. The simply doesn't want to add more service on the mainly because it isn't packed like other trains, but that part of the reason why it isn't crowded.  The trains come so infrequently that people try to avoid it. They only use it if they have to OR if it's there and their other options aren't coming. 

[pitchblende]

The other issue for why the C train is so infrequent is because of capacity limits at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.  It can only handle 26 trains an hour, which it maxes out during the AM peak.  That said, they should certainly add more trains during the 9-10am hour.  I shouldn't have to wait 12 mins for a train.

 

LMAO... I think it's hilarious that the female commuter said "You know it's bad when you have New Yorkers saying they'd rather take the bus".  The is fairly infrequent overall, and the line certainly is neglected. The simply doesn't want to add more service on the mainly because it isn't packed like other trains, but that part of the reason why it isn't crowded.  The trains come so infrequently that people try to avoid it. They only use it if they have to OR if it's there and their other options aren't coming. 

[N6 Limited]

The isn't too bad, but when you're at a local station in Brooklyn and you see the train cruse by with no in site, it sucks. HOWEVER there are times where the is hiding, and the can go from Broadway Junction to Hoyt-Schermerhorn or vice versa without an passing. One day I took a to Euclid Ave because the was delayed. the didn't pass until Shepard Ave.

[Jcb]

The wait times are generally regarded as intolerable by Fulton Street riders. One of the explanations for the crowding at Hoyt-Schermerhorn is riders at Nostrand especially taking the if there are no train headlights visible on the express tracks.

[Snowblock]

When I used to work the on Sundays, I would CONSTANTLY beat the next to 168. I'd usually make a connection with an at Euclid just as the trip started, and not see that one again, but then the following would be hot on our trail at Hoyt, so would follow us to Canal, and then usually make a connection at W4 or 14. My would almost completely empty out and then we'd waltz out of there while that would now be struggling to close down. Then we'd connect with a at 59 and that would ensure that the from W4 never gets to catch up to us again! As I would be cleaning out my at 168, I would then see that same pulling in. Happened just about every weekend!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

When I used to work the on Sundays, I would CONSTANTLY beat the next to 168. I'd usually make a connection with an at Euclid just as the trip started, and not see that one again, but then the following would be hot on our trail at Hoyt, so would follow us to Canal, and then usually make a connection at W4 or 14. My would almost completely empty out and then we'd waltz out of there while that would now be struggling to close down. Then we'd connect with a at 59 and that would ensure that the from W4 never gets to catch up to us again! As I would be cleaning out my at 168, I would then see that same pulling in. Happened just about every weekend!

All I know is the is slow as hell in terms of wait times, but the can be just as bad. Years ago when I worked with an arts company during my college breaks, I would get the and at 34th street.  I would always wait for the going home, and wait by the stairs in case a came, and then I would haul @ss down the stairs to get that train. lol This was all to get off at Fulton for the to Bowling Green to get the ferry to Staten Island.   I found them equally bad in terms of wait times and I had terrible luck getting to the station and getting an quickly.  The waits were always bad for some reason, and the would come in bunches.  The most frequent train was ALWAYS the . 

[Calvin]

Waiting for a train at either 42 St-Port Authority Bus Terminal or at Fulton St, there will usually be 3-4 trains either of then a would arrive. 

 

Speaking of train, I wonder if there is a change since the 160s are staying there

[Around the Horn]

Waiting for a train at either 42 St-Port Authority Bus Terminal or at Fulton St, there will usually be 3-4 trains either of then a would arrive. 

 

Speaking of train, I wonder if there is a change since the 160s are staying there

Yes.The R160 s were coming in W4 like clockwork until a R32 malfunctioned at 81st yesterday.

[N6 Limited]

s are always the most frequent on 8th Ave. 

 

Another story, One day I was at Hoyt-Schermerhorn waiting for the Queens bound , Three trains came before an !

[trainfanrod]

We just want frequent headways on the thats all make trains in brooklyn btwn the and come every 3-5 mins

[TeeCoZee]

I've always been a big advocate of the . Despite popular belief, it is rarely ever late for me and due to the fact that everyone hates it, I always get a seat. But then I spent a few months having to ride it during the morning rush and it was a much different story. It would still be on time, but the headways are way too long. The train would get so crammed that only a third of the people waiting could get on at Clinton-Washington and then at Lafayette, nobody could get on at all. I saw this happen 3 or 4 times a week. And it's not that there's another right behind it. Those people would have to wait another 10 minutes and hope that the next one is actually enterable. Adding just one measly train between 9 and 10am would make a world of difference. I'm just glad that I went back to commuting off-peak...

[pitchblende]

I've always been a big advocate of the . Despite popular belief, it is rarely ever late for me and due to the fact that everyone hates it, I always get a seat. But then I spent a few months having to ride it during the morning rush and it was a much different story. It would still be on time, but the headways are way too long. The train would get so crammed that only a third of the people waiting could get on at Clinton-Washington and then at Lafayette, nobody could get on at all. I saw this happen 3 or 4 times a week. And it's not that there's another right behind it. Those people would have to wait another 10 minutes and hope that the next one is actually enterable. Adding just one measly train between 9 and 10am would make a world of difference. I'm just glad that I went back to commuting off-peak...

 

I catch the at Lafayette every morning between 9 and 10.  I have to agree that it is fairly reliable with the schedule but the crowding and wait times are terrible.  The schedule calls for trains at 9:04, 9:12, 9:24 and 9:32.  If I just miss the 9:12, I see two to three s come on the express before the next .  I'm sometimes tempted to take the instead but the walk a little further for me.  I guarantee the will be the fastest growing train over the next 10 years with all the gentrification going on in Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights.  They are going to have to figure something out.

[Calvin]

Its strange how the rush hour on the doesn't have the time like most routes have (6-8 minutes for one but with 10-14 minutes PM Rush mostly but AM only 6 minutes during the 7 AM hour)

[TeeCoZee]

This is the world we live in: a person is tempted to take the . Ridership at the gentrified Fulton Local stations [Lafayette to Rockaway Ave] has increased by 2 million annually over the last 5 years and not much has been done to remedy it...

[P3F]

I mean, the is not a third-world country. If it is convenient, there is nothing wrong with taking it.

[Wallyhorse]

 

The other issue for why the C train is so infrequent is because of capacity limits at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.  It can only handle 26 trains an hour, which it maxes out during the AM peak.  That said, they should certainly add more trains during the 9-10am hour.  I shouldn't have to wait 12 mins for a train.

 

I catch the at Lafayette every morning between 9 and 10.  I have to agree that it is fairly reliable with the schedule but the crowding and wait times are terrible.  The schedule calls for trains at 9:04, 9:12, 9:24 and 9:32.  If I just miss the 9:12, I see two to three s come on the express before the next .  I'm sometimes tempted to take the instead but the walk a little further for me.  I guarantee the will be the fastest growing train over the next 10 years with all the gentrification going on in Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights.  They are going to have to figure something out.

This is one of the reasons why if the full Manhattan SAS is built, I would then extend the to Brooklyn with a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would connect on the other end at the existing Court Street (current Transit Museum) station and then from there come in on the rarely-used local track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.  This would allow the to become the Fulton Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts to eliminate the overnight shuttle) while the and can both run express on Fulton and eliminate the merge/unmerge east (railroad south) or Hoyt-Schermerhorn, with the full time to Lefferts (except late nights) and the exclusively to The Rockaways (eliminating the Rockaway Park Shuttle) and increasing service to about every 17 minutes late nights so there is a train every 34 minutes from either Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park then. 

[bobtehpanda]

 

 

 

This is one of the reasons why if the full Manhattan SAS is built, I would then extend the to Brooklyn with a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would connect on the other end at the existing Court Street (current Transit Museum) station and then from there come in on the rarely-used local track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.  This would allow the to become the Fulton Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts to eliminate the overnight shuttle) while the and can both run express on Fulton and eliminate the merge/unmerge east (railroad south) or Hoyt-Schermerhorn, with the full time to Lefferts (except late nights) and the exclusively to The Rockaways (eliminating the Rockaway Park Shuttle) and increasing service to about every 17 minutes late nights so there is a train every 34 minutes from either Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park then. 

 

 

Is it really necessary to have a fantasy proposal in every thread? At this point we are more likely to start WWIII than see the light of day on a brand new SAS-Brooklyn tunnel, and the review is mostly about the here and now, not what may or may not be possible given a lot of money and an endless time horizon.

[Wallyhorse]

Simply was pointing out why it was needed, which is what the reply really was supposed to illustrate.

[SubwayGuy]

The C is not bad. It could use later service all 7 days of the week (another 3 trains on the PM in each direction), and that would also allow for later A express service which is also desired. It's getting the extra service on Sunday mornings it needs.

 

What is needed is better communication along the route. The majority of people complaining about "long waits for the C" probably are sitting at an express station, waiting for a C. However, if there has been any sort of major earlier delay, there may be a gap in C service. So rather than get on an A, which will get told to make local stops to make up for the service (most commonly between Hoyt and Euclid, or between 145 and 168), they wait 30 minutes for the C.

 

If there is a gap in service, it's hard to fill. You have relay times at both ends so you don't have a lot of flexibility for running extra trains or cancelling a trip to hold a train, as the gap in service a dispatcher creates to fill another will eventually come back to haunt them. It can sometimes take multiple round trips to close a large gap in service.

 

Better communication and advance notice of when an A will get sent local would do a lot for riders along the line. As would the G being held to make connections at Hoyt more frequently.