Design Study: Vignelli-Colored A-Div Rollsigns of the 1970s

[MHV9218]

A little while back I posted a thread analyzing some of the colorful rollsigns that dotted cars of the B-Division during the 1970s (and, in some cases, through the 1980s). There are a significant number of signs that followed the 1968 color scheme introduced by Massimo Vignelli and Bob Noorda in the B-Division, as new equipment delivered in that era (R40s, R42s, R44s, and R46s) were all fitted with signs matching the new standards, and many cars (R16s, R32s, etc.) were retrofitted with new bulkhead signs to match the new look. However, far fewer cars of the A-Division ended up with those brightly colored signs. After the R36s arrived in the mid-1960s, no new cars were delivered until the mid-1980s, well after the 1979 trunk line conversion had gotten rid of many of the flamboyant colors that Vignelli and Noorda's system introduced. Consequently, the only cars to receive new signs were ones retrofitted with new rolls. As far as I can tell, relatively few new rolls were printed, and they were only installed on cars after they had gone for significant repaints or clean-ups. It's hard to find much evidence, but I've done some digging and thought I'd go through a few looks.

 

This incredibly rare photo shows one of the intact IRT rollsigns of the 1968 color explosion. This would have been installed on the number sign. Interestingly, B-Division colored rollsigns were meant for the route sign. I date this to sometime after 1972, given the (8) is not present. 

 

 

(credit unknown, WorthPoint archives)

 

Up close, you can see that the general appearance is very much like later signs: Akzidenz-Grotesk bullets on a black background.

 

 

(credit unknown, WorthPoint archives)

 

That sign sold for $444 back in 2011. Seems like a bargain to me! This is an example of one of those rolls in use on the line:

 

Doug Grotjahn photo

 

On the :

 

credit unknown

 

And on the :

 

 

Steve Zabel photo

 

It's worth noting that the route sign is also of a certain interest. Most IRT SMEEs carried destination rollsigns with a mix of Akzidenz-Grotesk and Helvetica rolls printed in the early 1980s, but before that roll was one with exclusively Akzidenz-Grotesk and condensed Akzidenz rolls. This roll can be differentiated by looking at the font size of some destinations: the massive 242 St, for example, was shrunk for later printings.

 

(credit unknown, WorthPoint archives)

 

Sometimes those new rolls were combined with the original colorless rolls of the 1950s...

 

 

(credit unknown)

 

...or even lasted until the 2000s with 1979-colored rolls:

 

(Paul Polischuk photo)

 

The new colors also spread to sign boxes on the sides of cars. A roll was printed with the colored bullets on white sidings, and was primarily installed on R17s and R21s/R22s. The text was all on two lines and featured a mix of medium and condensed Akzidenz-Grotesk. The side signs are order #25270, while those colored bulkhead signs are order #25271, so they were clearly meant to go together. 

 

 

(credit unknown)

 

Up close, member R33WF has some photos revealing that design:

 

 

 

(R33WF photos)

 

Those rolls were modified in the early-1980s to match the new trunk colors. I have one of those modified rolls in my personal collection, and you can make out the back of each roll the original paint (note the white square to the right of the photo with a faint magenta 4 bullet):

 

 

Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to find remnants of the A-Division's 'color signs' today. One will pop up extremely rarely on eBay or another site, but unlike the B-Division signs, very few of these were made and very few exist today. Many were thrown away or modified by the TA (like my signbox), where they hide in plain sight.

 

Hard to beat those original colors, though:

 

 

(Doug Grotjahn photo)

[Union Tpke]

I love looking at worthpoint for old interesting items. I don't have an account though, so the pictures have horrible quality.

[Around the Horn]

Whats with the switch between fonts on the destination roll?

[46Dover]

Too bad the R62/As weren't around for this....

[MHV9218]

I love looking at worthpoint for old interesting items. I don't have an account though, so the pictures have horrible quality.

 

I just made up a couple new accounts on trials. The most fascinating thing is seeing the resales. The houseofmemories802 guy has bought signs for $100 and resold them for $1600. Wish I'd been on eBay back when.

 

Whats with the switch between fonts on the destination roll?

 

Almost every roll printed has had multiple fonts. Here it's between Akzidenz-Grotesk Medium and Akzidenz-Grotesk Condensed to save space on the places with longer names, but on later rolls that included Helvetica switches occurred for almost any reason.

 

Too bad the R62/As weren't around for this....

 

Truth. The R68s almost caught the end of the white-backed bullets phase, but that only lasted for the test cars.

 

[Union Tpke]

I just made up a couple new accounts on trials. The most fascinating thing is seeing the resales. The houseofmemories802 guy has bought signs for $100 and resold them for $1600. Wish I'd been on eBay back when.

 

 

Almost every roll printed has had multiple fonts. Here it's between Akzidenz-Grotesk Medium and Akzidenz-Grotesk Condensed to save space on the places with longer names, but on later rolls that included Helvetica switches occurred for almost any reason.

 

 

Truth. The R68s almost caught the end of the white-backed bullets phase, but that only lasted for the test cars.

 

 

How are you able to get more than one free trial? Also, are there better quality pictures?

[MHV9218]

How are you able to get more than one free trial? Also, are there better quality pictures?

I just signed up with a couple different emails. Not for the eBay sales, no. All you get is the ability to see prices and sort by price.

[R40WTrain]

2 of the Redbirds on the Rail Adhesion train in Union Port still have a Front bulkhead logo and a side sign with the 1977 Color Vignelli Signs. Its pretty interesting i forgot which cars have them though. I know they still exist today though

[MHV9218]

2 of the Redbirds on the Rail Adhesion train in Union Port still have a Front bulkhead logo and a side sign with the 1977 Color Vignelli Signs. Its pretty interesting i forgot which cars have them though. I know they still exist today though

 

Really?! Was not aware of that, sounds like I'll be making a trip up there to look around. Those signs are few and far between, but a couple redbirds did survive with them until reefing. The destination signs from that era often made it too.

[R10 2952]

The condensed Akzidenz looked great.  And the stuff TA put on station signs- especially the ones with the small letters in a large bullet.
 
Anyone know if they put miniature versions of the Vignelli symbols in the rollsigns for the R10 thru R15? You know, the tiny boxes that were in between the roofline and the top of the window? Like this from nycsubway.org:

 

 
Can't figure out how they managed to fit so many destination/route signs into such tiny boxes....

[MHV9218]

Vignelli-colored side signs were printed for the R10s, but I'm not aware of any printed for the IRT cars. R12 and R14/R15 cars, with only a couple of exceptions, never received colored front scrolls at all (Vignelli or post-1979). Many of the R12s had been sidelined to the 3rd Ave Shuttle and then retired before new signs were printed, and the R14s/R15s were retired shortly after and rarely led trains. Very few IRT cars even received Vignelli signs in the first place. It seems to have been mainly World's Fair R36s being rehabbed and R17s that got the signs, and the side scrolls were modified almost as soon as they'd been produced. It seems like of the non-R17 fleet, the whitebird cars got a bunch of the signs. The R10 readings were never used in service, but some exist in collectors' hands. The TA has done this a few times, producing signs that were never put into use. 

 

This is a slide of those signs rom Lou Guadagni's authoritative book on this stuff, which I would love to buy for myself one day (just a little pricey).

 

[Lance]

As someone who owns this book, I can tell you it's a great resource if you're interested in roll signs, especially those of long ago. It's actually one of the sources I've used as well as the inspiration for the Rollsign Gallery that I was working on a few years ago, which is sadly still in hiatus.

 

For those wondering, there are two books by this publisher based on the sign curtains. The one containing the screenshot above, covers most signs from the B-Division post-Chrystie St while the other one tackles the sign curtains from the beginning of the IND and BMT services, along with other goodies. There is mention on their website of an upcoming release that covers the IRT signs, but the latest information on that dates back a few years, so take that as you will.

[Around the Horn]

As someone who owns this book, I can tell you it's a great resource if you're interested in roll signs, especially those of long ago. It's actually one of the sources I've used as well as the inspiration for the Rollsign Gallery that I was working on a few years ago, which is sadly still in hiatus.

 

For those wondering, there are two books by this publisher based on the sign curtains. The one containing the screenshot above, covers most signs from the B-Division post-Chrystie St while the other one tackles the sign curtains from the beginning of the IND and BMT services, along with other goodies. There is mention on their website of an upcoming release that covers the IRT signs, but the latest information on that dates back a few years, so take that as you will.

 

What is the name of the book?

[Lance]

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of New York City Subway Rollsigns and Ancillary Items, Vol. 1 - covers signs from 1914 to ~1970

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of New York City Subway Rollsigns and Ancillary Items, Vol. 2 - covers signs from 1967 to present

 

Both can be bought at goodstuffnowllc.com.

[46Dover]

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of New York City Subway Rollsigns and Ancillary Items, Vol. 1 - covers signs from 1914 to ~1970

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of New York City Subway Rollsigns and Ancillary Items, Vol. 2 - covers signs from 1967 to present

 

Both can be bought at goodstuffnowllc.com.

Just made my purchase (pretty expensive too). Thanks Lance

[MHV9218]

Good call on the link, Lance. Lou's good people and I'm glad to see everybody support the book. If I were less of a deadbeat, I'd have my own copy! Lou's collection is probably the best in the world--everything in the Houseofmemories collection on eBay was originally his, and it's hard to imagine a single rollsign he hasn't had at one point or another.

[46Dover]

Good call on the link, Lance. Lou's good people and I'm glad to see everybody support the book. If I were less of a deadbeat, I'd have my own copy! Lou's collection is probably the best in the world--everything in the Houseofmemories collection on eBay was originally his, and it's hard to imagine a single rollsign he hasn't had at one point or another.

I can't wait

[MHV9218]

While this thread has been recently bumped, found a photo that shows a rare complete set of 1977/1978 rollsigns on a 6 train at Grand Central. All three of these rolls are a mixture of condensed Akzidenz and Akzidenz Medium, but they all happen to be set to the rolls that are condensed.

 

 

For color comparison, here's the box that I have in my collection set to that reading: 

 

 

If anybody finds further photos of this rare era in city sign history, send them along!

[TheNewYorkElevated]

It's really nice knowing that these types of rollsigns were on trains back then.  

[Porter]

Whats with the switch between fonts on the destination roll?

 

It was probably for spacing and size considerations to accommodate longer words. The kerning and scaling technology of the time wasn't as precise and flexible as our modern font magic.

 

I date this to sometime after 1972, given the (8) is not present.

 

According to Allan Berlin of the Bronx, the (1967-1973 bullet) never appeared on rollsigns:

 

The #8 was assigned to the Bronx section of the 3rd Avenue El.  An

interesting note:  The trains themselves never had this route number

displayed on them.  The LO-V cars once used either had no provision for

this type of route sign or the later ones (LO-V World's Fair) had a

horizontal space for a route sign for which the TA did put in a roll sign

with the destination only.  The R-12's that were used until the El was

discontinued displayed "SHUTTLE" and the destination.  The 8 only existed

on the Maps and was in Light Blue[.]

 

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/nyc.transit/browse_thread/thread/a7065eeb80591602/b80df6369f787ab3?q=%22lenox+shuttle&rnum=3#b80df6369f787ab3

[Around the Horn]

According to Allan Berlin of the Bronx, the (1967-1973 bullet) never appeared on rollsigns:

 

 

Technically both correct and incorrect. The R12's were the only cars to run on the , but never received Vignelli roll signs, which did include the  on them.

[MHV9218]

Technically both correct and incorrect. The R12's were the only cars to run on the , but never received Vignelli roll signs, which did include the  on them.

 

Not sure that's true though. The Vignelli-colored signs had the (the IRT only rolls to feature that bullet), but never an . It's possible some signs were produced, but I've never seen them. There were also a couple of R12s/R14s to received Vignelli colored bullet bulkhead rollsigns, but you're right, by and large they never got new rolls.

[46Dover]

Update:

 

I got my Volume 2 roll signs book a couple of days back. Thanks Lance for putting out the info

[WB Bus Subway]

The 3 and 8, from my recollections, by 1972, would have been PMS 311 (a lighter blue than the PMS 312 that was mandated in the 1970 Graphics Standards Manual - and that was later used for the JFK Express) - and the SS, PMS 355 (a bit darker than PMS 354 which was also cited by the same Manual).  It made sense in terms of telling such routes apart in dim light, I figure (the color scheme of Broadway-East New York station of the A line was always delft blue, but it only seemed olive green because the light was so dim prior to the station getting fluorescent light around 1990).  And I cross-checked the two 1972 maps (especially the second) with Pantone swatches I have from 1966 and 1973.  The properties of the SS color matched 355 more than 354, likewise the color of the 3 and 8 had more in common with 311 than 312.  So if they did use 312 and 354 in connection with the Vignelli coloring standards, it would have been for a short time.

 

Wonder how A Division rollsigns with the routes and their colors for the right side front sign, laid out a la the 1969 rollsigns of the B Division lettered routes, would have looked like.  Especially with Transign's in-house type (which they actually called Transign Standard) for the numerals, 'SS' and 'S'.

[WB Bus Subway]

And here's an example.  First the 1970 colors:

 

Then with the light blue lightened, and the green darkened, from 1972:

 

 

Which set can be easier told apart, I ask?