Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[TMC]

57 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Excellent map. Where did you find it? 

That's from https://onthemap.ces.census.gov/, you can quite accurately see where residents along a particular line work using this tool. I decided that after certain railfans kept regurgitating the same information about why de-interlining isn't in line with current ridership patterns, that I would research this myself, and lots of myths have been dispelled. 

[Lex]

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Well considering you have to move one less switch and the relay, that should be a lot.

In other words, you just threw spaghetti at the wall.

Again.

[Reptile]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:48 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Could be. After all, the  has always been a QBL express service (outside of late night service, and even that was a fairly recent change). It’s all riders have ever known. And had the 63rd St tunnel not been connected to the QBL between an express and a local station, it wouldn’t make sense to change the . But they did make the connection in that location and now it causes big delays by creating an extra merge between the  and , as well as another merge between the  and  at Queens Plaza on weekdays.

My concern with sending all local QBL trains to the 63rd St tunnel is that the local stations from 65th Street to 36th Street would be cut off from Queens Plaza and the rest of LIC. So essentially, you wouldn’t be able to travel locally between those stations and LIC, which has become somewhat of a “downtown” for all of Queens.

True but now that plan is cutting off express service from Queens Plaza which may be even worse. Perhaps one of these setups would work:

Express 60 and 53 Sts, Local 63

Express 63 and 60, Local 53

Express 53 and 63, Local 60

And in order to use the 60 St tunnel the would run Broadway Local to 2nd Av and the would run Bway Express to 60 St and Astoria/QBL.

[TMC]

30 minutes ago, Reptile said:

True but now that plan is cutting off express service from Queens Plaza which may be even worse. Perhaps one of these setups would work:

 

I don't think the loss of express service to Queens Plaza is that important, most passengers aren't heading there from far east, the densest collection of jobs from the Queens Blvd is in Midtown. There are jobs in LIC that passengers on QBL would be going to, but they are much more spread out, and not necessarily concentrated at Queens Plaza, so the inconvenience is limited to very few people.  
 

 

32 minutes ago, Reptile said:

Express 63 and 60, Local 53

Express 53 and 63, Local 60

And in order to use the 60 St tunnel the would run Broadway Local to 2nd Av and the would run Bway Express to 60 St and Astoria/QBL.

I personally think Broadway-QBL service is extremely redundant, and a terrible reverse-branch when both IND trunks parallel Broadway through the CBD. 

[Lawrence St]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

In other words, you just threw spaghetti at the wall.

Again.

Jokes on you I’m eating spaghetti right now.

but in all seriousness, no. That saves a lot of money not having to relay.

[Kamen Rider]

No, it doesn’t save anything, because now the trains can’t get to 207 yard without relying and deadheading even MORE…

also 145 lower SUCKS as a terminal from an operating perspective. If there is no train in the station and I need to get from one platform to the other, it’s ether up and down multiple flights of stairs or climb down to the roadbed and cross the  center track.

[Lawrence St]

13 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

No, it doesn’t save anything, because now the trains can’t get to 207 yard without relying and deadheading even MORE…

also 145 lower SUCKS as a terminal from an operating perspective. If there is no train in the station and I need to get from one platform to the other, it’s ether up and down multiple flights of stairs or climb down to the roadbed and cross the  center track.

What trains on weekends are going in and out of 207th St? From what I remember, the only  trains that come out of the yard on weekends is out of Pitkin Yard.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Jokes on you I’m eating spaghetti right now.

but in all seriousness, no. That saves a lot of money not having to relay.

I'm definitely not seeing it.

You know what would save a lot of money? ZPTO. The thing is, we're not even remotely equipped to handle that, and considering the unions (for all rail operations, not just the subway, though I can't exactly fault them, given how poor job opportunities tend to be, whether in quantity or quality), we won't be. Hell, you'd be able to save far more money by not running the  on weekends at all than whatever little you'd save by cutting one relay and three stops.

[Kamen Rider]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

What trains on weekends are going in and out of 207th St? From what I remember, the only  trains that come out of the yard on weekends is out of Pitkin Yard.

Then you remember wrong.

Using the Saturday base timetable; there are 10 trains that enter service at 168 in the morning and 10 that lay up from there in the evenings. Five Saturday road C train TO jobs are scheduled to end at 207 yard. I’ve been partnered with several when assigned to the C.

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, Kamen Rider said:

Then you remember wrong.

Using the Saturday base timetable; there are 10 trains that enter service at 168 in the morning and 10 that lay up from there in the evenings. Five Saturday road C train TO jobs are scheduled to end at 207 yard. I’ve been partnered with several when assigned to the C.

Huh, I stand corrected then.

[ActiveCity]

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1LnordR8JYClN5iI68BdlXR8RlMjpeSA&ll=40.78976089418641%2C-73.89081439397653&z=11

I proposed an  train extension to Mets - Willets Point and Seaview Avenue. The map tells you everything you need to know about it. Let me know your thoughts after you've viewed it.

Edited January 2, 2023 by ActiveCity

[Reptile]

My semi-deinterlining plan for Queens Boulevard

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Culver, 8th Av, 53rd St, QBL Local

Jamaica Center to WTC via 6th Av, 63rd St, QBL Express

Jamaica-179 St to Metropolitan Av via QBL Express, 2nd Av, Williamsburg Bridge

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Sea Beach/4th Av, Broadway Express, 60th St, QBL Local

This configuration has merges but they aren't as severe as the current ones. It gives every B Division trunk line access to Queens Boulevard and leaves space for a extension to Queens Plaza for Broadway access.

 

[Reptile]

9 minutes ago, Reptile said:

My semi-deinterlining plan for Queens Boulevard

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Culver, 8th Av, 53rd St, QBL Local

Jamaica Center to WTC via 6th Av, 63rd St, QBL Express

Jamaica-179 St to Metropolitan Av via QBL Express, 2nd Av, Williamsburg Bridge

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Sea Beach/4th Av, Broadway Express, 60th St, QBL Local

This configuration has merges but they aren't as severe as the current ones. It gives every B Division trunk line access to Queens Boulevard and leaves space for a extension to Queens Plaza for Broadway access.

 

Also my plan for Broadway deinterlining:

If possible the 2nd Avenue subway could be connected to the Broadway Local tracks rather than the express ones. This would allow the routings:

Express to Forest Hills

Express to Astoria/LGA

Local to 96 Street

If not then the and could swap routings in Queens or the could take on the whole local duty with trains running to 96th Street

Edited January 3, 2023 by Reptile

[TMC]

2 hours ago, Reptile said:

My semi-deinterlining plan for Queens Boulevard

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Culver, 8th Av, 53rd St, QBL Local

Jamaica Center to WTC via 6th Av, 63rd St, QBL Express

Jamaica-179 St to Metropolitan Av via QBL Express, 2nd Av, Williamsburg Bridge

Forest Hills to Coney Island via Sea Beach/4th Av, Broadway Express, 60th St, QBL Local

This configuration has merges but they aren't as severe as the current ones. It gives every B Division trunk line access to Queens Boulevard and leaves space for a extension to Queens Plaza for Broadway access.

 

This actually isn't bad, given the goal, I just question the need to access every trunk, which is something that people here will get on my ass for...

[TMC]

11 hours ago, ActiveCity said:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1LnordR8JYClN5iI68BdlXR8RlMjpeSA&ll=40.78976089418641%2C-73.89081439397653&z=11

I proposed an  train extension to Mets - Willets Point and Seaview Avenue. The map tells you everything you need to know about it. Let me know your thoughts after you've viewed it.

Right away, the idea isn't bad, I'll give it that, but here are some criticisms:

- Not a criticism, but the Seaview extension is good, it would be relatively cheap to build, so why not?

- Up 10th Ave isn't bad, per se, I just don't like the crosstown on 86th Street. My belief is that the only new crosstowns should be along 125th Street, as an outer-circumferential segment, and 50th Street, as a radial line going into Queens and across into New Jersey. I say 50th, because it most directly relieves the 7, and it's the most northerly core hit. 125th acts as an outer circumferential, on an otherwise radial line, so it's quite natural of an extension. 

- I don't see the appeal of running trains on Astoria Blvd, vs. Northern Blvd, which is a corridor denser than Utica Ave. Northern also has a natural path towards Eastern Queens, most likely terminating at Crocheron Ave.

- For a western L extension, I'd rather send the L to Secaucus, not the often proposed 7, as the 7 duplicates regional rail services that could be improved upon to be more rapid-transit like, and the L is the other logical option. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, TMC said:

This actually isn't bad, given the goal, I just question the need to access every trunk, which is something that people here will get on my ass for...

I considered the possibility of a semi-deinterlined QBL with access to three trunk lines - 8th, 6th and 2nd. Like this…

 71st Ave to WTC via QBL local, 53rd St and 8th Ave local 

 unchanged in Queens and Manhattan. Express between Jay St and Church Ave in Brooklyn 

 Jamaica Center to Metro Ave via QBL express, 63rd St and 2nd Ave 

 71st Ave to Church Ave via QBL local, 53rd, 6th Ave local and South Brooklyn IND

However, because the  is unable to run more than eight 60-footers per train, this would be a problem for running a 2nd Ave  via the QB express tracks, so I’ve since reconsidered this idea in favor of leaving the  as is and having the V operate via 63rd and 2nd and (initially) terminating wherever the  does.

2 hours ago, TMC said:

Right away, the idea isn't bad, I'll give it that, but here are some criticisms:

- Not a criticism, but the Seaview extension is good, it would be relatively cheap to build, so why not?

- Up 10th Ave isn't bad, per se, I just don't like the crosstown on 86th Street. My belief is that the only new crosstowns should be along 125th Street, as an outer-circumferential segment, and 50th Street, as a radial line going into Queens and across into New Jersey. I say 50th, because it most directly relieves the 7, and it's the most northerly core hit. 125th acts as an outer circumferential, on an otherwise radial line, so it's quite natural of an extension. 

- I don't see the appeal of running trains on Astoria Blvd, vs. Northern Blvd, which is a corridor denser than Utica Ave. Northern also has a natural path towards Eastern Queens, most likely terminating at Crocheron Ave.

- For a western L extension, I'd rather send the L to Secaucus, not the often proposed 7, as the 7 duplicates regional rail services that could be improved upon to be more rapid-transit like, and the L is the other logical option. 

I’d strongly consider an  extension to Secaucus as well. As long as it makes intermediate stops in Hoboken and Jersey City and construction is paid for and operations funded by the State of New Jersey. Has to be much more effective than Gov. Murphy spending $10 billion to widen I-78 in the same area, yes?

Edited January 3, 2023 by T to Dyre Avenue

[TMC]

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

However, because the  is unable to run more than eight 60-footers per train, this would be a problem for running a 2nd Ave  via the QB express tracks, so I’ve since reconsidered this idea in favor of leaving the  as is and having the V operate via 63rd and 2nd and (initially) terminating wherever the  does.

I question the value of the current M service, because it doesn't do much to decongest the L, which was part of its original goal. It misses the development in Williamsburg, which clusters along the L, not the J/M. Long term, There needs to be a connection from the Broadway El that sends all its trains into Midtown. For now, I'm on the side of reinstating the M service from Metropolitan Ave to Broad (or Chambers) Street, to alleviate that reverse-branch, and allow more overall capacity into Midtown. The Broadway El and Myrtle Ave El don't have so many riders that other lines and transfers would be overwhelmed, and it will be a while until serious gentrification reaches farther eastward (Bushwick is currently gentrifying, but along the L mostly, not along the J and M). Add tail tracks on the L past 8th Ave, and the Seaview extension proposed earlier would provide for tail tracks at the other end. Upgrading the substations, would allow for a potential 36-40 TPH under CBTC, and the system is also fit for driverless operation, meaning 40+ can be obtained (Paris Line 14 uses a similar system to the Canarsie Line, and is able to run 42 TPH). The last part is mostly fantasy land, however. 

 

 

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’d strongly consider an  extension to Secaucus as well. As long as it makes intermediate stops in Hoboken and Jersey City and construction is paid for and operations funded by the State of New Jersey. Has to be much more effective than Gov. Murphy spending $10 billion to widen I-78 in the same area, yes?

This ^. I envision it traveling in a quad-track tube with the 7, then running west through Hoboken in a tunnel, with a portal just before Secaucus Junction, platform adjacent to the upper level tracks. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:36 AM, TMC said:

I question the value of the current M service, because it doesn't do much to decongest the L, which was part of its original goal. It misses the development in Williamsburg, which clusters along the L, not the J/M. Long term, There needs to be a connection from the Broadway El that sends all its trains into Midtown. For now, I'm on the side of reinstating the M service from Metropolitan Ave to Broad (or Chambers) Street, to alleviate that reverse-branch, and allow more overall capacity into Midtown. The Broadway El and Myrtle Ave El don't have so many riders that other lines and transfers would be overwhelmed, and it will be a while until serious gentrification reaches farther eastward (Bushwick is currently gentrifying, but along the L mostly, not along the J and M). Add tail tracks on the L past 8th Ave, and the Seaview extension proposed earlier would provide for tail tracks at the other end. Upgrading the substations, would allow for a potential 36-40 TPH under CBTC, and the system is also fit for driverless operation, meaning 40+ can be obtained (Paris Line 14 uses a similar system to the Canarsie Line, and is able to run 42 TPH). The last part is mostly fantasy land, however. 
 

What sort of connection do you have in mind? I only ask because wouldn't any new connection that sends all trains from the Broadway El into Midtown cut the el off from the Nassau Street Line? Or would you favor reinstating the old M service to Chambers/Broad while rerouting the  up 6th Avenue?

Edited January 4, 2023 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 12/31/2022 at 5:46 PM, TMC said:

That's from https://onthemap.ces.census.gov/, you can quite accurately see where residents along a particular line work using this tool. I decided that after certain railfans kept regurgitating the same information about why de-interlining isn't in line with current ridership patterns, that I would research this myself, and lots of myths have been dispelled. 

I'm trying it out now. Unfortunately, I need a real computer to draw the polygons and do the analysis (OnTheMap doesn't really work well on a phone), so I'm doing it on my work computer - I have a little downtime, lol. I'm still figuring it out. But one result I got made it seem like Midtown is more popular with Brighton riders and Downtown is more popular with both Sea Beach and West End riders. At least according to 2019 data, the most recent year they have. It is an interesting finding, to say the least.

Edited January 4, 2023 by T to Dyre Avenue

[TMC]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:16 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

What sort of connection do you have in mind? I only ask because wouldn't any new connection that sends all trains from the Broadway El into Midtown cut the el off from the Nassau Street Line? Or would you favor reinstating the old M service to Chambers/Broad while rerouting the  up 6th Avenue?

No idea yet, I don't see a connection into 8th Ave being valuable, the cost would be in the 10 figure range, for such a short connector. 2nd Ave (3rd Ave really, I'm more influenced by Levy's ideas) is a possibility, but I prefer that going via Williamsburg into Utica. In the meantime, all Broadway El service, including service from the Myrtle Ave El, should go downtown. 6th Ave is hard without a major reconfiguration of Chrystie, that would also involve 2nd Ave (Again, 3rd Ave technically). 

 

 

On 1/4/2023 at 4:27 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I'm trying it out now. Unfortunately, I need a real computer to draw the polygons and do the analysis (OnTheMap doesn't really work well on a phone), so I'm doing it on my work computer - I have a little downtime, lol. I'm still figuring it out. But one result I got made it seem like Midtown is more popular with Brighton riders and Downtown is more popular with both Sea Beach and West End riders. At least according to 2019 data, the most recent year they have. It is an interesting finding, to say the least.

They seem to both be equally popular, especially areas around Canal Street, which both the Sea Beach and West End Lines would get service towards. I wouldn't discount data from 2019, 

[BreeddekalbL]

Who has seen this proposal for the

 

 

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Who has seen this proposal for the

"Golden age", right. You should see the second tweet with the extension that goes to Manhattan. I personally am not against it, but it just cannot be done with the current set up. The  would have to be rerouted via 21 St either right after the 21 St station or get rid of the station entirely. I don't really know why it's running underneath 86 St in Manhattan either.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

6 hours ago, TMC said:

No idea yet, I don't see a connection into 8th Ave being valuable, the cost would be in the 10 figure range, for such a short connector. 2nd Ave (3rd Ave really, I'm more influenced by Levy's ideas) is a possibility, but I prefer that going via Williamsburg into Utica. In the meantime, all Broadway El service, including service from the Myrtle Ave El, should go downtown. 6th Ave is hard without a major reconfiguration of Chrystie, that would also involve 2nd Ave (Again, 3rd Ave technically). 

 

 

They seem to both be equally popular, especially areas around Canal Street, which both the Sea Beach and West End Lines would get service towards. I wouldn't discount data from 2019, 

From how I played around with OnTheMap, the areas around Canal Street were especially popular with the areas surrounding both Sea Beach and West End, while Herald Sq seemed to be more popular with the area surrounding Brighton. But I did it with zip code destinations and maybe that doesn’t tell the whole story.

We had a poster on here in 2018/19 (?) who was big into doing an 8th Avenue connection. Would have been between Bowery and Spring St. I didn’t think it would be any better than the current 6th Ave connection. We also had some pretty good discussion here in early 2020 about extending the  and  to Jamaica and Myrtle, but like you said, that would require a major reconfiguration of Chrystie.

2 hours ago, Vulturious said:

"Golden age", right. You should see the second tweet with the extension that goes to Manhattan. I personally am not against it, but it just cannot be done with the current set up. The  would have to be rerouted via 21 St either right after the 21 St station or get rid of the station entirely. I don't really know why it's running underneath 86 St in Manhattan either.

I wonder if the  can play some sort of role towards relieving traffic on the nearby BQE should the City finally step up with a real plan to address its future.

[Vulturious]

30 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I wonder if the  can play some sort of role towards relieving traffic on the nearby BQE should the City finally step up with a real plan to address its future.

Well I had a really dumb idea that I came up with that involves a lot of changes with the  at least in Queens that would sort of answer that question.

Starting off with this image, I decided to reroute the  to run along 21 St. Jackson Av would be the replacement name for 21 St station. Court Square platform would have better access to the  and  lines.

This next image is where things take a huge leap, I don't think I can emphasize that enough. The  would skew from Queens going through Randalls Island making at least one stop wherever possible heading straight into the Bronx to run along St. Ann's Av. My original intention was to run it along 3 Av from there since it has the lineup which would join up the SAS (if we ever got to that point). However, I decided to go a little extreme and run the  along side the  and  along 149 St. 3 Av station would be converted from a two side platform station to a two island platform station, this would be the only change to the line. 

This was where my intentions were hearing with a crosstown 145 St line that the  would serve. Somewhere between 3 Av and Grand Concourse, the  would go below the  into Manhattan making three stops in the process with the last stop being Broadway-145 St. I was in a bit of a rush when making this so it's not entirely accurate at least when looking at the Manhattan side of things. 

My other intentions with the  running via 21 St in Queens was to run it crosstown along 125 St, but I do not have a map of such at the moment of making this post. Obviously, none of this would ever happen. Like many other proposals, it's just a pipedream, but one can dream.

[TMC]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

We had a poster on here in 2018/19 (?) who was big into doing an 8th Avenue connection. Would have been between Bowery and Spring St. I didn’t think it would be any better than the current 6th Ave connection. We also had some pretty good discussion here in early 2020 about extending the  and  to Jamaica and Myrtle, but like you said, that would require a major reconfiguration of Chrystie.

I know him from YouTube comments sections, that is precisely his proposal. I'm honestly very torn about how valuable such a project is, considering the amount of investment sunk into transfers, affording the same kind of access.