Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Around the Horn]

If we're looking for places to send the SAS, why not build a new tunnel under Atlantic Avenue and link up with the LIRR Atlantic Branch (since it will be severed after East Side Access opens)?

the could make the following stops (new stops in italics)

Court Street

Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center

Washington Avenue

Nostrand Avenue

Utica Avenue

East New York

Crescent St

Woodhaven

Lefferts Blvd

Jamaica

[Union Tpke]

7 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

If we're looking for places to send the SAS, why not build a new tunnel under Atlantic Avenue and link up with the LIRR Atlantic Branch (since it will be severed after East Side Access opens)?

the could make the following stops (new stops in italics)

Court Street

Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center

Washington Avenue

Nostrand Avenue

Utica Avenue

East New York

Crescent St

Woodhaven

Lefferts Blvd

Jamaica

Use it for regional rail, not the subway.

[RR503]

I think its worth noting that these proposals are in no way mutually exclusive. When SAS Phase 4 is finished, we will have an astounding 150 tph (SAS, Lex Local, 8th Local, 7th Local, and whatever portions of Nassau/Broadway aren't getting space through Montague) of capacity dead ending in Lower Manhattan. If there isn't a way to make more than 30tph of that into usable southbound throughput, I don't know what to tell you... 

 

[bobtehpanda]

14 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I think its worth noting that these proposals are in no way mutually exclusive. When SAS Phase 4 is finished, we will have an astounding 150 tph (SAS, Lex Local, 8th Local, 7th Local, and whatever portions of Nassau/Broadway aren't getting space through Montague) of capacity dead ending in Lower Manhattan. If there isn't a way to make more than 30tph of that into usable southbound throughput, I don't know what to tell you... 

 

Most of the locals aren't usable in their current form.

• 8th dead-ends pretty close to another station
• Nassau doesn't go anywhere people want to go
• 7th and Lex have much faster, and at capacity express counterparts to Midtown, so effectively most people will just slam them at the first available transfer stop to the express

Edited July 3, 2018 by bobtehpanda

[RR503]

37 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Most of the locals aren't usable in their current form.

• 8th dead-ends pretty close to another station
• Nassau doesn't go anywhere people want to go
• 7th and Lex have much faster, and at capacity express counterparts to Midtown, so effectively most people will just slam them at the first available transfer stop to the express

I disagree. 

-8th has provisions for expansion to the South/East just north of WTC where the line crosses under Worth St. 

-Nassau is a perfect replacement for Broadway service along 4th Avenue (if the latter trunk is rerouted, be it to Fulton or elsewhere), as no one on that corridor will ever stay on their local given that their express services take the most direct route to Midtown possible — the Manhattan Bridge. 

-Lex and 7th are at cap southbound. N/B — especially if Rogers gets rebuilt — they can absorb a good bit more ridership before they hit max corridor capacity.  

[KK 6 Ave Local]

6 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Use it for regional rail, not the subway.

I feel the subway would be better and @Around the Horn has already mentioned the link would be severed. So the farthest we can go is Archer/Jamaica (and even farther if Archer gets it's needed extension)

Edited July 3, 2018 by KK 6 Ave Local

[Caelestor]

Here's a thought exercise from a different perspective:

Assume that no new tunnels will be built for the next 15 years sans East Side Access (which unfortunately is likely given current trends). Without new tunnels, what would you do to improve the existing system? 

I'll start it off by saying that we should run all  trains up to 96 St to maximize SAS and Broadway capacity, as well as build switches south of Astoria Blvd to enable trains to terminate at that stop (estimated 6 tph capacity improvement), but I'm interested to see what you guys would think.

[Wallyhorse]

20 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

I have a fun one for you guys; it's also something I've wanted to see for a really long time: a four-track trunk on 2 Av carrying four different lines, some from Queens and some from the Bronx. The (P) and the (U) would be the expresses, with the  and (Y) running local. Express stops are in bold below, while local stops are in regular text.

The Bronx line would start off carrying the (P) on two tracks at Bay Plaza, with stops at Edson/Bartow Avs, Gun Hill Rd/Fenton Av (connection to  with rear exits on Eastchester Rd, Boston Rd, White Plains Rd , and a four-track station at Norwood-205 St  beneath the existing tracks. The  would begin service at Norwood-205 St, and then the line would continue south, with the  running local and the (P) running express, stopping at Bedford Park Blvd/Webster Av, Fordham Plaza, 3Av/183 St, 3 Av/Tremont Av, 3 Av/Claremont Pkwy, 3Av/169 St, 3 Av/Boston Rd, 3 Av/156 St, 3 Av/149 St with connections to the  , and 138 St/3 Av. with a connection to the  before running under the East River. 

The Queens line would start at Francis Lewis Bl/26 Av with two tracks, carrying the (U). It would stop at 157 St/23 Av, Willets Pt Blvd/150 St, Willets Pt Blvd/Parsons Blvd, and 28 Av/College Pt Blvd before running under Flushing Bay and stopping at LGA terminal D. LGA Terminal D would be a four-track station, and the (Y) would terminate there. West of Terminal C the line would stop at LGA Central Terminal, 23 Av/82 St, Astoria Blvd/Hazen St, Astoria Blvd/Steinway St, Astoria Blvd/31 St with a connection to the  , and Randall's Island before crossing the East River at around 125 St.

In Manhattan the Ditmars Blvd and 3 Av lines would merge into a single four-track trunk on 2 Av, carrying the (P) and (U) on the express tracks, with the  and (Y) on the local tracks, stopping at 125 St-2Av, 116 St, 106 St, 96 St 86 St, 79 St (infill, may be worth skipping), 72 St, 66 St, 59 St with passage to 59-Lex   , 51 St, 42 St-2 Av  with new  station if possible, 34 St, 28 St, 23 St, 14 St-2 Av with a connection to the 3 Av  stop, St. Mark's Pl, and Houston St-2 Av.

South of there, run a two-track line carrying the  and continuing under Chrystie/Pearl Sts and stops at Grand St , St. James Pl, Fulton/Water Sts, and South Ferry with  connections before continuing to Tottenville to connect with the SIR (shamelessly bumming that from OfficiallyLiam's post right behind mine).

Turn the main trunk line carrying the (P) (U) and (Y) east under the river, and continue it with stops at Metropolitan/Wythe Avs, Metropolitan Av/Roebling St, Metropolitan Av/Lorimer St with a connection to the , Graham Av/Grand Av, Graham Av/Montrose Av, Graham Av/Flushing Av/Broadway with  connection, and Graham Av/Myrtle Av/Broadway with  connection. Split the trunk line here; send four tracks to Kings Plaza via Utica Av and another four via a new Broadway/Jamaica Av line.

The Utica Av line would carry the (P) on the express tracks and the (Y) on the local tracks, and stop at Utica/Lafayette Avs, Utica Av/Halsey St, Utica Av/Fulton St with connection to  using the existing station shell, Utica Av/St Marks St, Utica Av/Eastern Pkwy with connection to , Utica Av/Empire Blvd, Utica Av/Winthrop St, Utica Av/Church Av, Utica Av/Beverly Rd, Utica Av/Foster Av, Utica Av/Kings Highway, Utica Av/Flatlands Av, Utica Av/Av M, Utica Av/Av S, and finally Kings Plaza.

The Broadway/Jamaica Av line would carry the  on the local tracks and the (U) on the express tracks, and stop at Broadway/Gates Av, Broadway/Halsey Av, Broadway/Chauncey St, Broadway Junction with connections to the , Jamaica Av/Arlington Av, Jamaica Av/Elton St, Jamaica Av/Highland Blvd, Jamaica Av/Crescent St, Jamaica Av/75 St, Jamaica Av/85 St, Jamaica Av/Woodhaven Blvd, Jamaica Av/104 St, Jamaica Av/111 St, Jamaica Av/121 St, Sutphin Blvd  with  connection, and Parsons/Archer with  connection.

 and  trains would terminate at Parsons/Archer, while the (U) would continue on a two-track line out to Springfield Blvd via Merrick Blvd, with stops at Liberty Av, 110 Av, Linden Blvd, Baisley Blvd, Farmers Blvd, and Springfield Blvd as the terminus.

The Nassau St Elevated line would be demolished east of the BQE, and a new portal would be built in the block bounded by Rodney St, Broadway, S 5th St, and Keap St to bring the  underground; the Hewes St station would be rebuilt underground, and the new underground Lorimer St station would connect to the Broadway  station. The new underground Broadway/Jamaica Av corridor would be built to IND standards.

This is really ambitious, but it would accomplish a lot of things; The NE Queens branch would connect Northeastern Queens to the subway system, providing redundancy for Flushing, while tying LGA into the subway system in a way that actually makes sense (as opposed to an AirTrain from Flushing to LGA), and the Bronx branch would provide a crosstown option in the Bronx on Gun Hill Rd, and the connections with the  and  would provide west side access to Manhattan, to go along with east side access from the  and  , while also taking a load off the Bx15 and providing the Bronx a proper four-track express service.

The Manhattan trunk would take a huge load off the Lex, especially considering the Bronx connections, and the Brooklyn setup would provide massive relief on the western Brooklyn part of the  , as it would now be possible to get a one-fare ride into Manhattan from any station west of Broadway Junction by taking the B20/24/26/38/52/57/ from the area around basically any L station between Lorimer St and Broadway Junction to a stop on the Broadway/2 Av corridor (or just walk if you're near the Graham Av or Grand St stations on the  . The Utica Av corridor takes a huge load off the B46 (and the split ends of the B41), and the Jamaica Av corridor gets rid of the Crescent St curves while providing one-seat rides from SE Queens into Manhattan.

All excellent, however, you might need to move this version of the and the other lines over to 1st Avenue north of say 79th Street due to the being where it is.   I would probably do that and add a stop at 79th Street/1st Avenue if there would not have been a stop on 79th otherwise, with such coming under the existing SAS tracks at 79th and stopping at a new lower level of 72nd, with provisions that allow the newer tracks to turn at 63rd and head to the Broadway Line (and I would also on 63rd look to extend those tracks so they can connect to the 8th Avenue line, which would have all kinds of additional benefits for G.O.s or even down the road being able to do a line that runs from a connection to the 8th Avenue line at 63rd to the SAS as well as to Queens. 

[bobtehpanda]

21 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

If we're looking for places to send the SAS, why not build a new tunnel under Atlantic Avenue and link up with the LIRR Atlantic Branch (since it will be severed after East Side Access opens)?

You'd have to build a hell of a lot of tunnel to do that, since the Atlantic Branch does not go anywhere deep enough to clear the subway lines in that area.

Alternatively, Fulton is very under-capacity. The next under-river tunnel should head to Fulton.

[Wallyhorse]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

You'd have to build a hell of a lot of tunnel to do that, since the Atlantic Branch does not go anywhere deep enough to clear the subway lines in that area.

Alternatively, Fulton is very under-capacity. The next under-river tunnel should head to Fulton.

Absolutely, as I have said MANY times. 

[bobtehpanda]

10 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Absolutely, as I have said MANY times. 

Do you really need the last word about everything? 😒

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Do you really need the last word about everything? 😒

You can have new people seeing this for the first time and not see other threads.  We are regulars but a newbie might see the Fulton idea for the first time and say WHHAAATTT?

[KK 6 Ave Local]

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

You can have new people seeing this for the first time and not see other threads.  We are regulars but a newbie might see the Fulton idea for the first time and say WHHAAATTT?

When I first saw it on vanshnookenraggen years ago I thought it was a good idea.

My thought process was a little like this:

Only 8 Ave runs on Fulton

8 Ave is on the West Side of Manhattan only

2 Ave is on the East

So people will get to the East and West Sides.

[bobtehpanda]

17 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

You can have new people seeing this for the first time and not see other threads.  We are regulars but a newbie might see the Fulton idea for the first time and say WHHAAATTT?

Okay. But what did you add to the conversation other than "me too" ? What value does that provide for anybody?

 

[RR503]

8 hours ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

When I first saw it on vanshnookenraggen years ago I thought it was a good idea.

My thought process was a little like this:

Only 8 Ave runs on Fulton

8 Ave is on the West Side of Manhattan only

2 Ave is on the East

So people will get to the East and West Sides.

I disagree. While it’s true that such a link would give Fulton riders a good spread of options, it kinda handicaps SAS as a corridor. Already the line — by merit of it being so far East, and by that of there being so few crosstown routes — will be the least well connected of any of the Manhattan trunks. Thus linking it to a Brooklyn trunk which is equally — if not more — isolated seems like a great way to ensure the corridor’s underutilization. To the end of increasing SAS’s competitiveness/catchment, I’d honestly much rather do Vanshnook’s thing where SAS takes over Manhattan Bridge north tracks and 6th Exp goes to W’Burg, or some sort of link with the Montague Tubes, or even the Atlantic super-express thing. For Fulton, the ’s Whitehall provisions are always there to be taken.... 

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

I disagree. While it’s true that such a link would give Fulton riders a good spread of options, it kinda handicaps SAS as a corridor. Already the line — by merit of it being so far East, and by that of there being so few crosstown routes — will be the least well connected of any of the Manhattan trunks. Thus linking it to a Brooklyn trunk which is equally — if not more — isolated seems like a great way to ensure the corridor’s underutilization. To the end of increasing SAS’s competitiveness/catchment, I’d honestly much rather do Vanshnook’s thing where SAS takes over Manhattan Bridge north tracks and 6th Exp goes to W’Burg, or some sort of link with the Montague Tubes, or even the Atlantic super-express thing. For Fulton, the ’s Whitehall provisions are always there to be taken.... 

I still don’t understand how Whitehall Street’s provisions can be used. It’s in an area with a lot of stuff going on, and I don’t know if there is enough room to build a flying junction from there.

[RR503]

6 hours ago, CenSin said:

I still don’t understand how Whitehall Street’s provisions can be used. It’s in an area with a lot of stuff going on, and I don’t know if there is enough room to build a flying junction from there.

Whitehall  lies pretty deep underground. Any new tunnels from there would immediately cut under the adjacent — and higher  — and then continue under the river to Brooklyn. 

You would not built a flying junction there. The current Whitehall tracks would be rerouted to point down the new tubes, and all service would be rerouted to continue to Fulton. Whether or not a flat junction connection to the current Montague tube route is kept for flexibility’s sake is an open question, but such a routing should not be used in regular service. 

[LGA Link N Train]

Here's a program for Action map I never bothered to complete. Feel free to edit...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BJ70ZX4GIWP1_Ip2aXKQZEI_X_CKbWDU&usp=sharing

[KK 6 Ave Local]

On 7/4/2018 at 4:59 PM, RR503 said:

I disagree. While it’s true that such a link would give Fulton riders a good spread of options, it kinda handicaps SAS as a corridor. Already the line — by merit of it being so far East, and by that of there being so few crosstown routes — will be the least well connected of any of the Manhattan trunks. Thus linking it to a Brooklyn trunk which is equally — if not more — isolated seems like a great way to ensure the corridor’s underutilization. To the end of increasing SAS’s competitiveness/catchment, I’d honestly much rather do Vanshnook’s thing where SAS takes over Manhattan Bridge north tracks and 6th Exp goes to W’Burg, or some sort of link with the Montague Tubes, or even the Atlantic super-express thing. For Fulton, the ’s Whitehall provisions are always there to be taken.... 

Or all of them. Although, we could theoretically make passageways from 2nd Ave to Lex-Park stations like GCT, 59, 51, 14, and transfers at Grand and 2 Ave on the . Queens can be served using the bypass as well. If trains from only the Queens Bypass and the Bronx run on SAS, we could justify

1. It being 2 tracks the whole way according to the MTA's plan

2. Maybe a Fulton extension

Also, how about just running SAS trains to W'Burg?

Edited July 6, 2018 by KK 6 Ave Local

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

Or all of them. Although, we could theoretically make passageways from 2nd Ave to Lex-Park stations like GCT, 59, 51, 14, and transfers at Grand and 2 Ave on the . Queens can be served using the bypass as well. If trains from only the Queens Bypass and the Bronx run on SAS, we could justify

1. It being 2 tracks the whole way according to the MTA's plan

2. Maybe a Fulton extension

Also, how about just running SAS trains to W'Burg?

The only viable connections I foresee are those at Grand Street, Houston Street, and 14 Street. Everything else is an entire avenue block or two away. I would not want to utilize such a transfer.

[KK 6 Ave Local]

1 minute ago, CenSin said:

The only viable connections I foresee are those at Grand Street, Houston Street, and 14 Street. Everything else is an entire avenue block or two away. I would not want to utilize such a transfer.

Fair enough.

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

Fair enough.

I hope they will consider a station extension to South Ferry to add another transfer to Broadway and 7 Avenue. The current viable options seems to give few choices in routes:

• : Grand Street
• : 2 Avenue
• : 3 Avenue
• : Lexington Avenue–53 Street (a long walk)
• : 72 Street

Considering the possible usage scenarios, anyone coming from the northern segment of the line has the option of transferring to the running down the center of Manhattan diagonally from the west side, the running down the west side, and the which also runs down the center of Manhattan. That covers a large area of Manhattan south of Central Park giving riders access to Manhattan spanning from 1 Avenue to 9 Avenue—all within walking distance.

The options for someone traveling from the south end of the line look worse. The first 2 connections are to the which all provide access only to the center of Manhattan. Access to the west side requires a second transfer whether through West 4 Street–Washington Square to the or using the . Connecting the 2 Avenue line to the Fulton Street line at the southern end eliminates this particular problem. Those needing the west side would make the transfer at Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets.

Unfortunately, if one trunk is shutdown for maintenance, a whole swath of Manhattan becomes inaccessible via free transfers. Let’s say the 6 Avenue line was shutdown for maintenance, then the next best alternative would be to get to the Broadway line via the or by going to 72 Street. What would normally be minor inconveniences become big inconveniences as there are no redundant transfers to rely on to get around.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

The only viable connections I foresee are those at Grand Street, Houston Street, and 14 Street. Everything else is an entire avenue block or two away. I would not want to utilize such a transfer.

Lex/53 is already almost that long. GCT/42 will probably be more likely to catch people coming off of East Side Access. But most of those are actually only about a half block to Second.

[Caelestor]

19 hours ago, CenSin said:

The only viable connections I foresee are those at Grand Street, Houston Street, and 14 Street. Everything else is an entire avenue block or two away. I would not want to utilize such a transfer.

The  transfer will absolutely be used by riders to get to 8 Ave or LIC and for QBL riders to access destinations along 1 Ave and 2 Ave. At 42 St, I do see an underground passage being built, but not necessarily a free transfer to GCT.

16 hours ago, CenSin said:

I hope they will consider a station extension to South Ferry to add another transfer to Broadway and 7 Avenue. The current viable options seems to give few choices in routes:

• : Grand Street
• : 2 Avenue
• : 3 Avenue
• : Lexington Avenue–53 Street (a long walk)
• : 72 Street

Considering the possible usage scenarios, anyone coming from the northern segment of the line has the option of transferring to the running down the center of Manhattan diagonally from the west side, the running down the west side, and the which also runs down the center of Manhattan. That covers a large area of Manhattan south of Central Park giving riders access to Manhattan spanning from 1 Avenue to 9 Avenue—all within walking distance.

The options for someone traveling from the south end of the line look worse. The first 2 connections are to the which all provide access only to the center of Manhattan. Access to the west side requires a second transfer whether through West 4 Street–Washington Square to the or using the . Connecting the 2 Avenue line to the Fulton Street line at the southern end eliminates this particular problem. Those needing the west side would make the transfer at Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets.

Unfortunately, if one trunk is shutdown for maintenance, a whole swath of Manhattan becomes inaccessible via free transfers. Let’s say the 6 Avenue line was shutdown for maintenance, then the next best alternative would be to get to the Broadway line via the or by going to 72 Street. What would normally be minor inconveniences become big inconveniences as there are no redundant transfers to rely on to get around.

I actually don't think that a transfer to South Ferry is necessary. Financial District riders along Water St should just take the  nearby for West Side access. Chatham Square riders can be serviced by the Grand St and Houston St transfers, albeit inconveniently.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, Caelestor said:

The  transfer will absolutely be used by riders to get to 8 Ave or LIC and for QBL riders to access destinations along 1 Ave and 2 Ave. At 42 St, I do see an underground passage being built, but not necessarily a free transfer to GCT.

I actually don't think that a transfer to South Ferry is necessary. Financial District riders along Water St should just take the  nearby for West Side access. Chatham Square riders can be serviced by the Grand St and Houston St transfers, albeit inconveniently.

That’s exactly it. These transfers will be inconvenient. Almost an entire avenue block from the  to the ? An underground passage from the  to GCT? With no free transfer to the ? Not to mention the  in Phase 4 passing over or under several existing lines with no connection to them or that there will be less service below 63rd St vs above 63rd (one of the pitfalls of reverse branching).