De Blasio wants streetcar line on Brooklyn-Queens waterfront

[BreeddekalbL]

Hate to bring up an old thread but the TWU endorses the streetcar they shouldn't cause they are gonna be conned 

[Around the Horn]

Hate to bring up an old thread but the TWU endorses the streetcar they shouldn't cause they are gonna be conned 

 

All we need is a construction union and this think is pretty much set in sand. 

 

And what do you mean by conned?

[BreeddekalbL]

i think it's gonna be the next boondoggle construction project of nyc plus should get it's own row not integrated with the street

[Deucey]

i think it's gonna be the next boondoggle construction project of nyc plus should get it's own row not integrated with the street

Separate ROW and be integrated with that LIRR light rail proposal from last week.

[bobtehpanda]

BDB is delusional if he thinks he can get it off the ground. Last I heard, costs were rising, it was unpopular. There also isn't going to be federal money in the kitty for this thing.

[RR503]

Yeah. To address some things said here:

 

Separate ROW is impossible -- streets in NYC are generally too narrow to have isolated streetcar lanes, and the Brooklyn w'front is no exception.

 

As to financing, costs are ballooning, and the method of financing -- tax incremental financing -- requires a subsequent development boom to function. In the case of the BQX, said boom has already occurred, obviating that possibility. 

 

Furthermore, friends of the BQX have projected a total ridership that seems to be -- frankly -- bull$#!+. According to https://onthemap.ces.census.gov/, only ~16,000 ppl commute from points w/in 1/3 of a mile of the corridor and other points therein daily, and seeing as there will probably not be transfers to MTA services, I just can not see how they're coming up with 50,000+. 

 

This money should be spent where it is needed, namely, actual transit deserts in Queens, Staten Island and SBK. Not on the watefront, which, despite its constant protest, already has decent subway connectivity and bus service. If anything, this should be an SBS line. Once again, however, instead of working w/ the TA, DeBlasio must stroke his ego. He is sore over his and Cuomo's public spat, and therefore loath to cooperate. Instead, he must rebuild his public image with 'sexy' modes of transport that provide 'alternatives.' And all the while, his developer pals who are looking to sell their overpriced condos will get more interest because, oh look, they're building a streetcar line. 

[BreeddekalbL]

could be used to restore the RBB branch but noooo...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

This money should be spent where it is needed, namely, actual transit deserts in Queens, Staten Island and SBK. Not on the watefront, which, despite its constant protest, already has decent subway connectivity and bus service. If anything, this should be an SBS line. Once again, however, instead of working w/ the TA, DeBlasio must stroke his ego. He is sore over his and Cuomo's public spat, and therefore loath to cooperate. Instead, he must rebuild his public image with 'sexy' modes of transport that provide 'alternatives.' And all the while, his developer pals who are looking to sell their overpriced condos will get more interest because, oh look, they're building a streetcar line.

 

  

could be used to restore the RBB branch but noooo...

I could not agree more with you guys. DeBlasio needs to figure out how to work with the TA and make up with Cuomo. In fact, DeBlasio could focus the money on that streetcar for restoring the RBB and putting diesel light rail on the Lower Montauk branch. Maybe do both RBB and Lower Montauk as diesel light rail, connecting over by Union Turnpike. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be less than what it'll cost to do the "Developers' Special" (i.e., the streetcar).

[Interested Rider]

The reason that our elitist mayor will not provide service on the Richmond Hill Line is that his developer friends would not benefit from it, if they want it let them pay for it 

[LTA1992]

All I can say is, I DO think trams/streetcars are needed here.

 

Just not where they want it to go.

 

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[Around the Horn]

All I can say is, I DO think trams/streetcars are needed here.

 

Just not where they want it to go.

 

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I'd have to agree with this. I like the BQX route on its own but not the mode per say. I'd rather this be an SBS route, with specially designed XD60s. 

 

(an aside: I also find it interesting how all the renderings of the streetcar show the destination sign with the letter X, as if its a subway route)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'd have to agree with this. I like the BQX route on its own but not the mode per say. I'd rather this be an SBS route, with specially designed XD60s. 

 

(an aside: I also find it interesting how all the renderings of the streetcar show the destination sign with the letter X, as if its a subway route)

I find it laughable that cities that are smaller than New York have BOTH trams and buses running down the same streets in some cases, and yet in NYC, it has to be one or the other. This is an example below in Milan (aka "little New York"):

 

 

Mind you, I walked all over Milan, since I was taking photos and such, but in every city, there is always good transportation options, even over night.  Here, they do everything to LIMIT options.  In Florence where I lived, we had buses that ran overnight only.  They were punctual and fairly frequent.  Could always go out somewhere traveling, come back to Florence late and get a bus to my apartment from the City Center.

[bobtehpanda]

I find it laughable that cities that are smaller than New York have BOTH trams and buses running down the same streets in some cases, and yet in NYC, it has to be one or the other. This is an example below in Milan (aka "little New York"):

 

Mind you, I walked all over Milan, since I was taking photos and such, but in every city, there is always good transportation options, even over night.  Here, they do everything to LIMIT options.  In Florence where I lived, we had buses that ran overnight only.  They were punctual and fairly frequent.  Could always go out somewhere traveling, come back to Florence late and get a bus to my apartment from the City Center.

 

The major difference is that there, building trams is so normal that it doesn't cost that much, whereas BQX is a total of about $3B. If trams cost the euros $3B a line they wouldn't build any.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The major difference is that there, building trams is so normal that it doesn't cost that much, whereas BQX is a total of about $3B. If trams cost the euros $3B a line they wouldn't build any.

Well go with a European provider that can get the job done at a reasonable price. It's been an ongoing trend anyway with an array of projects here.

[RR503]

Well go with a European provider that can get the job done at a reasonable price. It's been an ongoing trend anyway with an array of projects here.

It doesn't have to do with who's building it. It has to do with the fact our city has zero existing infrastructure to support such an operation, which inflates the cost. You could use the most experienced tram builder, and it'd still cost $$$$. (I also think that 3B is still too low, but that's another discussion).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It doesn't have to do with who's building it. It has to do with the fact our city has zero existing infrastructure to support such an operation, which inflates the cost. You could use the most experienced tram builder, and it'd still cost $$$$. (I also think that 3B is still too low, but that's another discussion).

That's not the impression that bobtehpanda is giving...

[RR503]

Read again:

 

The major difference is that there, building trams is so normal that it doesn't cost that much, whereas BQX is a total of about $3B. If trams cost the euros $3B a line they wouldn't build any.

 

They have the infrastructure set up to build these lines. In the US, no one even makes girder rail anymore. They have large #s of contractors and suppliers ready to deal with electrification. For us, its a royal PITA (and BDB wants to do batteries or something strange like that...). We have no infrastructure to build on -- no existing car fleets, substations, yards, and shops to draw from.

 

Also remember (and I'm really surprised you of all people have forgotten this) that Buy America rules are a thing (as are NYS rules stipulating similar things) so it's nowhere as simple as just import the bits from Europe. 

[bobtehpanda]

Well go with a European provider that can get the job done at a reasonable price. It's been an ongoing trend anyway with an array of projects here.

 

European companies already compete to build our subways, and look how far that's gotten us...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

European companies already compete to build our subways, and look how far that's gotten us...

lol... It's not as if we have American companies that can so what choice do we have...  This is what happens when you don't support American businesses.  In this case though, we need someone with the know-how to do this and do it correctly.   

[bobtehpanda]

lol... It's not as if we have American companies that can so what choice do we have...  This is what happens when you don't support American businesses.  In this case though, we need someone with the know-how to do this and do it correctly.   

 

I've said this before, but the reason we don't have American railway companies is not because we keep offshoring the work, but because America doesn't have a railway sector large enough to support passenger railway companies. We do well enough for freight rail, but our passenger rail market is essentially sawdust in comparison to the healthy European and Asian railway networks.

 

It also doesn't help that for whatever reason, American rail products were simply not compelling to other countries. The Europeans do buy Asian trains and the Asians buy European trains, and both sold to other markets as well, but I have never heard of a foreign country buying American trains.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I've said this before, but the reason we don't have American railway companies is not because we keep offshoring the work, but because America doesn't have a railway sector large enough to support passenger railway companies. We do well enough for freight rail, but our passenger rail market is essentially sawdust in comparison to the healthy European and Asian railway networks.

 

It also doesn't help that for whatever reason, American rail products were simply not compelling to other countries. The Europeans do buy Asian trains and the Asians buy European trains, and both sold to other markets as well, but I have never heard of a foreign country buying American trains.

That was something else I was going to mention... I think for now Bombardier is close enough.  I've seen their testing facility up in Plattsburgh (use to live there up by Montréal) during my college days.  It's an extremely important employer for that area. I had the pleasure of seeing those first trains that were being tested on the line before they even came down to NYC.  We had trolley cars in Brooklyn in the old days, I still remember the cobblestone streets in Downtown Brooklyn with them as a kid before they were essentially done away with. 

[RR503]

I've said this before, but the reason we don't have American railway companies is not because we keep offshoring the work, but because America doesn't have a railway sector large enough to support passenger railway companies. We do well enough for freight rail, but our passenger rail market is essentially sawdust in comparison to the healthy European and Asian railway networks.

 

It also doesn't help that for whatever reason, American rail products were simply not compelling to other countries. The Europeans do buy Asian trains and the Asians buy European trains, and both sold to other markets as well, but I have never heard of a foreign country buying American trains.

 

Passenger, no. Freight, all the time. Both EMD and GE do brisk export businesses. 

[Porter]

Eh, I dunno about this. Usually these are done as tools for gentrification, and that area's really already past that, seeing how 1BRs we're already going for $1M+ in blind auctions a few years ago. Not to mention, the still isn't running full length trains, and the B32 only runs every 30 minutes, but hey, you know what, if it'll pay for itself, I see no reason why not too.

 

Gentrification is fine as long as you can find ways to prevent landlords from increasing the rent beyond inflation adjustments. I live next to a streetcar in SF and shitty drivers (and pedestrians) do sometimes affect it.

[LTA1992]

All I hear are excuses as to why trams can't work here, and not enough solutions.

 

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[bobtehpanda]

That was something else I was going to mention... I think for now Bombardier is close enough.  I've seen their testing facility up in Plattsburgh (use to live there up by Montréal) during my college days.  It's an extremely important employer for that area. I had the pleasure of seeing those first trains that were being tested on the line before they even came down to NYC.  We had trolley cars in Brooklyn in the old days, I still remember the cobblestone streets in Downtown Brooklyn with them as a kid before they were essentially done away with. 

 

Bombardier currently has terrible PR in their home country, Canada, because all their orders (including, and especially the Canadian ones!) are years behind schedule; Toronto has streetcar orders that are a decade late. On top of that, Bombardier asked both Quebec and Canada to pony up because they were struggling, those governments complied, and then Bombardier proceeded to award executive bonuses roughly equivalent to the extra funding they got. They may not last another decade if they don't get their act together.

 

All I hear are excuses as to why trams can't work here, and not enough solutions.

 

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This is if you view the problem as 'we need a light rail, no ifs ands or buts!', and not, 'we need to solve the transportation problem on the waterfront'.

 

A light rail that won't have free transfers or exclusive right of way is absolute garbage.