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TransitJusticeForAll

De Blasio wants streetcar line on Brooklyn-Queens waterfront

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This is if you view the problem as 'we need a light rail, no ifs ands or buts!', and not, 'we need to solve the transportation problem on the waterfront'.

 

A light rail that won't have free transfers or exclusive right of way is absolute garbage.

More like, we do need trams. We have corridors that, under the current way our country does things, may never get a subway. The B35, B46, Bx12 (well, most cross Bronx bus routes really), among others are far better candidates really.

 

Secondly, what makes trams across Europe work so well is connectivity. In fact, officials in the RATP said that they revival of trams in the Paris area could never have been possible if they were not planned around ease of connection and integration. Replacing our busiest bus corridors should be the priority.

 

I mean really, there was a time where I lived along the B46 and during the evening rush, there was a period where a bus was to arrive almost every minute and they were still packed to the brim.

 

I have an idea for how Church Avenue could work. Especially in its more crowded sections. The modifications needed to the corridor, the surrounding streets, and the need to acquire lots of property are the only blockades.

Edited by LTA1992

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More like, we do need trams. We have corridors that, under the current way our country does things, may never get a subway. The B35, B46, Bx12 (well, most cross Bronx bus routes really), among others are far better candidates really.

 

Secondly, what makes trams across Europe work so well is connectivity. In fact, officials in the RATP said that they revival of trams in the Paris area could never have been possible if they were not planned around ease of connection and integration. Replacing our busiest bus corridors should be the priority.

 

I mean really, there was a time where I lived along the B46 and during the evening rush, there was a period where a bus was to arrive almost every minute and they were still packed to the brim.

 

I have an idea for how Church Avenue could work. Especially in its more crowded sections. The modifications needed to the corridor, the surrounding streets, and the need to acquire lots of property are the only blockades.

This is a better idea than that Redhook-W'burg-Astoria tram, although I'd prefer an actual light rail like MUNI in SF, especially on 207th/Fordham/Pelham.

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This is a better idea than that Redhook-W'burg-Astoria tram, although I'd prefer an actual light rail like MUNI in SF, especially on 207th/Fordham/Pelham.

 

well the only reason that redhook wb and astoria is getting this is so devisionzero can gift his overlords for funding his campaign just like the Rockaway Beach Branch/ Queensway barrier

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More like, we do need trams. We have corridors that, under the current way our country does things, may never get a subway. The B35, B46, Bx12 (well, most cross Bronx bus routes really), among others are far better candidates really.

 

Secondly, what makes trams across Europe work so well is connectivity. In fact, officials in the RATP said that they revival of trams in the Paris area could never have been possible if they were not planned around ease of connection and integration. Replacing our busiest bus corridors should be the priority.

 

I mean really, there was a time where I lived along the B46 and during the evening rush, there was a period where a bus was to arrive almost every minute and they were still packed to the brim.

 

I have an idea for how Church Avenue could work. Especially in its more crowded sections. The modifications needed to the corridor, the surrounding streets, and the need to acquire lots of property are the only blockades.

This is the thing. LRT just doesn't cut it for NY. We are a city so dependent on public transit that once your out of bus territory in terms of ridership you should really build a subway. The B46 corridor needs rapid transit, not bandaids. The same can be said of most SBS corridors in the city (many of which were slated to recieve such treatment but never got it. LRT is great if you're a medium density city or new build system that has street space available and interest in public transit but can't justify a subway. New York has/is none of those things. I too love the image of a streetcar puttering down Utica, but we can't do what's best for us transit nuts, we have to do what's best for the city.

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Secondly, what makes trams across Europe work so well is connectivity. In fact, officials in the RATP said that they revival of trams in the Paris area could never have been possible if they were not planned around ease of connection and integration. Replacing our busiest bus corridors should be the priority.

 

If 'busiest bus corridors' is the priority, then we should not be replacing the B62 with a light rail. The B62 is the 100th busiest bus route in the system. Nothing about the B62 corridor, such as its narrow street network, high level of street congestion, etc. suggests that it is better for light rail as a technology rather than enhanced bus service.

 

I'm not saying that we should never build light rail anywhere. But it has to be looked at holistically instead of as a junkie's fix for rail based technology. Certain corridors (Bx12, Q46, Q10, Q25, M14D) are much more amenable to light rail extensions than others which would logically fit as subway extensions (B44, B46, Q53) or as high-capacity BRT (Q44). In fact, I am reluctant to even endorse the B35, simply because if RX were to ever get built crosstown bus patterns would likely change dramatically.

Edited by bobtehpanda
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If 'busiest bus corridors' is the priority, then we should not be replacing the B62 with a light rail. The B62 is the 100th busiest bus route in the system. Nothing about the B62 corridor, such as its narrow street network, high level of street congestion, etc. suggests that it is better for light rail as a technology rather than enhanced bus service.

 

I'm not saying that we should never build light rail anywhere. But it has to be looked at holistically instead of as a junkie's fix for rail based technology. Certain corridors (Bx12, Q46, Q10, Q25, M14D) are much more amenable to light rail extensions than others which would logically fit as subway extensions (B44, B46, Q53) or as high-capacity BRT (Q44). In fact, I am reluctant to even endorse the B35, simply because if RX were to ever get built crosstown bus patterns would likely change dramatically.

Thank you for once again reiterating my point in the first part of your post.

 

Secondly, I am only including tramways for corridors that could use subways because of what I've come to learn about how money works in this country. And the more I learn, the less likely it seems that they will ever get subways. While I am trying to be positive about the possibility, the fact of the matter is that it's going to take a hell of a lot of change (abolishment really) to our current monetary system for anything we need to come to reality.

 

That's really the root of all of our issues. Money. The same mistakes being repeated over and over through history. The MTA can only do what it does with money because the System encourages it.

 

Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

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I'd have to agree with this. I like the BQX route on its own but not the mode per say. I'd rather this be an SBS route, with specially designed XD60s.

 

(an aside: I also find it interesting how all the renderings of the streetcar show the destination sign with the letter X, as if its a subway route)

BQX_Greenpoint.jpg

And have more fare evaders on the SBS route? Whatever you are smoking, I want some.

 

I was reading on some of these comments about this BQX and it's not gonna be MTA operated.

 

Now as for them, here is the story that I'm gonna refresh some of you guys: Back 9 years ago today, the MTA was gonna buy the east river free bridges (Queensboro, Williamsburg, Manhattan & Brooklyn as well as the Harlem River Bridges) and make them as toll bridges, but the people fought long and hard.

 

I was living in Queens at that time when the MTA was discussing about the 42nd St light rail, matter of fact, there was 5 meetings within 1994, but former governor George Pataki, and former MTA chairman E. Virgil Conway wiped out the idea that could've went thru. An $86M founding for NYCTA was cut the following year (1995) that could've saved the FSSLR, that money went to Pataki's home city of Rochester to paint bridges and road repairs. subway and bus service saw cuts unlike those in 2010:

one station permanently closed which was Dean Street on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.

The 42nd Street Shuttle closed overnight,

3 Shuttle gone, replaced by M7/102

Bus routes gone: Bx24, B30

Bus routes lost overnight service: Bx3, Bx11, Bx13, Bx17, Bx33, Bx55, M116, B2, B4, B11, B16, B69, B70, Q26, Q42, Q84, S66. Only the S66 lost weekend service.

M101 & M102 was shortened to 6th & 3rd, south of it was replaced by the new M103.

The Bx20 was shortened from 263rd & Riverdale to 246 & HHP, and its Sunday service gone.

The B47/62 merged to B43 and the B5/50 became the B82.

 

Here was the trick: 3 months after the reductions, the fares went up to $1.50 from 1.25. Several bus routes was saved such as the X lines in Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan that was slated for discontinuation but was adverted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited by FLX9304
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And have more fare evaders on the SBS route? Whatever you are smoking, I want some.

 

I was reading on some of these comments about this BQX and it's not gonna be MTA operated.

 

 

The light rail would be proof of payment also, so I don't see where you're going with this.

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And have more fare evaders on the SBS route? Whatever you are smoking, I want some.

 

I was reading on some of these comments about this BQX and it's not gonna be MTA operated.

 

Now as for them, here is the story that I'm gonna refresh some of you guys: Back 9 years ago today, the MTA was gonna buy the east river free bridges (Queensboro, Williamsburg, Manhattan & Brooklyn as well as the Harlem River Bridges) and make them as toll bridges, but the people fought long and hard.

 

I was living in Queens at that time when the MTA was discussing about the 42nd St light rail, matter of fact, there was 5 meetings within 1994, but former governor George Pataki, and former MTA chairman E. Virgil Conway wiped out the idea that could've went thru. An $86M founding for NYCTA was cut the following year (1995) that could've saved the FSSLR, that money went to Pataki's home city of Rochester to paint bridges and road repairs. subway and bus service saw cuts unlike those in 2010:

one station permanently closed which was Dean Street on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.

The 42nd Street Shuttle closed overnight,

3 Shuttle gone, replaced by M7/102

Bus routes gone: Bx24, B30

Bus routes lost overnight service: Bx3, Bx11, Bx13, Bx17, Bx33, Bx55, M116, B2, B4, B11, B16, B69, B70, Q26, Q42, Q84, S66. Only the S66 lost weekend service.

M101 & M102 was shortened to 6th & 3rd, south of it was replaced by the new M103.

The Bx20 was shortened from 263rd & Riverdale to 246 & HHP, and its Sunday service gone.

The B47/62 merged to B43 and the B5/50 became the B82.

 

Here was the trick: 3 months after the reductions, the fares went up to $1.50 from 1.25. Several bus routes was saved such as the X lines in Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan that was slated for discontinuation but was adverted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

 

 

I fail to see your point with the recap of the service cuts.. 

 

The BQX is really a bandaid for DeBlasio's ego, while serving as a handout to his developer donor-friends. Stop seeing it as anything else. 

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And have more fare evaders on the SBS route? Whatever you are smoking, I want some.

I was reading on some of these comments about this BQX and it's not gonna be MTA operated.

Now as for them, here is the story that I'm gonna refresh some of you guys: Back 9 years ago today, the MTA was gonna buy the east river free bridges (Queensboro, Williamsburg, Manhattan & Brooklyn as well as the Harlem River Bridges) and make them as toll bridges, but the people fought long and hard.

I was living in Queens at that time when the MTA was discussing about the 42nd St light rail, matter of fact, there was 5 meetings within 1994, but former governor George Pataki, and former MTA chairman E. Virgil Conway wiped out the idea that could've went thru. An $86M founding for NYCTA was cut the following year (1995) that could've saved the FSSLR, that money went to Pataki's home city of Rochester to paint bridges and road repairs. subway and bus service saw cuts unlike those in 2010:

one station permanently closed which was Dean Street on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.

The 42nd Street Shuttle closed overnight,

3 Shuttle gone, replaced by M7/102

Bus routes gone: Bx24, B30

Bus routes lost overnight service: Bx3, Bx11, Bx13, Bx17, Bx33, Bx55, M116, B2, B4, B11, B16, B69, B70, Q26, Q42, Q84, S66. Only the S66 lost weekend service.

M101 & M102 was shortened to 6th & 3rd, south of it was replaced by the new M103.

The Bx20 was shortened from 263rd & Riverdale to 246 & HHP, and its Sunday service gone.

The B47/62 merged to B43 and the B5/50 became the B82.

Here was the trick: 3 months after the reductions, the fares went up to $1.50 from 1.25. Several bus routes was saved such as the X lines in Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan that was slated for discontinuation but was adverted.

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Pataki's from Peekskill, not Rochester.

 

Besides that, what do the proposed 42nd St light rail and service cuts from 1995 have to do with this poorly planned BQX streetcar? If nothing else, about the only thing I can really think of is that the 42nd St light rail, much like BQX, is a textbook example of how NOT to plan out a streetcar route.

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16 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Its in big trouble

https://nydn.us/2Jep1Dk

At this point, it shouldn't be a surprise that DeBlasio is foaming for this project to be built. 

In all seriousness though. The lack of integration with the subway and Bus., the fact that it stays on the waterfront, and the fact that it wouldn't get a high enough ridership. I'm not surprised if the project gets shot down. 

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16 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Its in big trouble

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

The BQX is never ever going to get built.

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I was watching the mini documentary about the BQX and im sort of partial to it. I know it would be great to help out the communities along the route but I do understand the concern many people have with property value going up. What was really stupid when that lady was claiming the BQX wasn't investing in climate change or whatever after they said its a no emissions streetcar. 

The thing I would say is that what needs to be done is not the BQX but the Triboro RX. We already know a lot of the transplants who move in only do so because they want to live by the city. A commute well over 30 minutes isn't feasible to them but a lot of working class people can't benefit from the Triboro RX. Going through Brooklyn, Queens, and The Bronx many people can have options to transfer to lines and buses. Its probably way more transplant proof than the BQX. 

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The Triboro RX is a much better investment. It's the true crosstown this city needs. 

P.S. Want a subway service right next to the east river? Answer is simple:

TAKE THE (G) TRAIN. 

Edited by Coney Island Av
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46 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Going through Brooklyn, Queens, and The Bronx many people can have options to transfer to lines and buses. Its probably way more transplant proof than the BQX

I mean, Interstate 278 already does that, so if it’s good enough for drivers, it’s good enough for riders.

Hell, Triboro might even take cars of the BQE and Bruckner parts of 278. Too bad Triboro wasn’t built already (or being built) before NYCDOT starts rebuilding the BQE in the 2020s.

That’ll be hell.

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43 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I mean, Interstate 278 already does that, so if it’s good enough for drivers, it’s good enough for riders.

Hell, Triboro might even take cars of the BQE and Bruckner parts of 278. Too bad Triboro wasn’t built already (or being built) before NYCDOT starts rebuilding the BQE in the 2020s.

That’ll be hell.

I don't know that you guys are disagreeing. In any case the BQE has a major advantage over a rail line in that you have a nice cushy seat with no tush-moving for your entire trip, tragedy of the commons be damned. The RX makes sense from 4th Av to Jackson Heights; north of that it gets very hard to pencil out since there's not enough capacity over the Hell Gate for a rapid transit service, and there's also not really significant South Bronx-Astoria-Jackson Heights demand.

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32 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know that you guys are disagreeing. In any case the BQE has a major advantage over a rail line in that you have a nice cushy seat with no tush-moving for your entire trip, tragedy of the commons be damned. The RX makes sense from 4th Av to Jackson Heights; north of that it gets very hard to pencil out since there's not enough capacity over the Hell Gate for a rapid transit service, and there's also not really significant South Bronx-Astoria-Jackson Heights demand.

I’m not. I was agreeing sarcastically.

Damn text not showing nuances.

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18 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

The Triboro RX is a much better investment. It's the true crosstown this city needs. 

P.S. Want a subway service right next to the east river? Answer is simple:

TAKE THE (G) TRAIN. 

Agreed. That’s the crosstown service we should be focusing on. Call that the X train!

16 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know that you guys are disagreeing. In any case the BQE has a major advantage over a rail line in that you have a nice cushy seat with no tush-moving for your entire trip, tragedy of the commons be damned. The RX makes sense from 4th Av to Jackson Heights; north of that it gets very hard to pencil out since there's not enough capacity over the Hell Gate for a rapid transit service, and there's also not really significant South Bronx-Astoria-Jackson Heights demand.

If the X train is built in phases, then it may be best to start in Brooklyn, then making its way up through Queens into Jackson Heights. By then, we might have a clearer picture of where Bronx-Queens traffic is largely concentrated.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/10/nyregion/streetcar-mayor-brooklyn-queens.html

Quote

 

Is Mayor de Blasio’s Brooklyn-Queens Streetcar Dead?

By EMMA G. FITZSIMMONS  APRIL 10, 2018

 

It was an ambitious idea by Mayor Bill de Blasio and the focus of his 2016 State of the City speech: a sparkling streetcar running along the waterfront in Brooklyn and Queens.

But two years later, there has been little progress on one of Mr. de Blasio’s key transportation initiatives.

Mr. de Blasio has said little about the streetcar in recent months and his office has not identified a route, leading to persistent speculation that the proposal is dead. At the very least, it is delayed. Supporters now question whether a groundbreaking could happen before Mr. de Blasio leaves office at the end of 2021.

In a recent radio interview, Mr. de Blasio insisted that the streetcar was still on.

“We’re moving forward, but we have to get the exact details right,” the mayor said on WNYC on Friday, calling the proposal “a big complicated endeavor.”

The mayor’s office said it has simply been taking its time to study the 16-mile route and to determine whether the $2.5 billion streetcar could be self-funded, as city officials had anticipated. Mr. de Blasio acknowledged on Friday that the project would likely need federal financing.

Supporters of the streetcar, which is known as the Brooklyn Queens Connector and would run from Astoria in Queens to Sunset Park in Brooklyn, have grown restless.

A group of real estate and transit leaders who have lobbied for the streetcar sent a letter to Mr. de Blasio on Monday urging him to make it a priority.

“We are calling on your administration to take concrete steps to indicate that this critical infrastructure project will indeed break ground during your mayoralty,” the letter from the board for the Friends of the Brooklyn Queens Connector, which was obtained by The New York Times, said.

The letter said that the streetcar could cement the mayor’s legacy, but it would require “bold, visionary leadership.”

Mr. de Blasio, a Democrat who was elected to a second term in November, has often been criticized for being indecisive. Instead of focusing on the streetcar, the mayor has prioritized other transit initiatives, including a popular expansion of ferry service.

The streetcar was pitched as a way to help address the city’s transit crisis and a project Mr. de Blasio could tackle on his own, without meddling from Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, his frequent adversary. Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, controls the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which oversees the city’s poor-performing subways and buses.

Mr. de Blasio said he wanted to connect a string of growing neighborhoods along the waterfront and claimed that rising real estate tax revenue could finance the streetcar. But his deputy mayor, Alicia Glen, raised doubts last week about whether that model was still feasible.

Ms. Glen told reporters that if the streetcar did not pay for itself, the city would have to decide whether to cover the costs, according to an article in the Daily News that Mr. de Blasio later attacked. Ms. Glen and the mayor both suggested Senator Chuck Schumer, a Democrat, might help secure federal funding.

Mr. Schumer’s daughter, Jessica Schumer, is the executive director of the Friends of the Brooklyn Queens Connector group. Mr. Schumer's office did not respond to a request for comment.

From the beginning, some said the streetcar idea was a gift to real estate developers on the waterfront instead of a response to a real transit demand. Among the leaders of the Friends group is Jed Walentas, a prominent developer.

Benjamin Kabak, a transit advocate who writes the Second Ave. Sagas subway blog, said he thought Mr. de Blasio would kill the streetcar plan after being re-elected.

“It seemed destined to be a low ridership, niche project with some faulty underlying assumptions,” Mr. Kabak said.

If Mr. de Blasio is committed to building the streetcar, it is far behind schedule. The city had aimed to start the public approvals process last year and major design work in 2018. It said it would pick an operator and hold a groundbreaking in 2019, with service starting in 2024.

Now it is unlikely construction could start before 2020 or 2021.

The route could also spark outrage in the bustling neighborhoods along the waterfront where hundreds of parking spots could disappear. City officials released a list of possible routes in 2016, but they still have not announced its path.

Wiley Norvell, a City Hall spokesman, said workers had dug trenches along the route to identify the utilities under city streets and officials were still calculating the exact project costs and anticipated real estate revenues.

“I know people are trying to read the tea leaves or coffee grounds, but real work is happening behind the scenes,” Mr. Norvell said.

For those hoping to ride the streetcar in the next decade, the silence from City Hall over the last year has been frustrating. The Friends of the Brooklyn Queens Connector displayed a sleek life-size prototype of the streetcar at the Brooklyn Navy Yard last fall to try to muster enthusiasm for the project. The group announced that its first executive director, Ya-Ting Liu, was stepping down a short time later.

Now, the streetcar could be vying for federal dollars in a crowded field of transit projects, including the Gateway plan to build a new rail tunnel under the Hudson River. Mr. Schumer and President Trump have been at odds over the rail tunnel and a broader infrastructure program.

Still, the streetcar project has its fans. Mitchell L. Moss, the director of the Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management at New York University, said the corridor was thriving and needed more transit options, even if the streetcar would not pay for itself.

“The criteria should not be whether it covers all of its costs,” he said, “but will it encourage housing and investment on the waterfront? And the answer is yes.”

 

 

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6 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

Is Mayor de Blasio’s Brooklyn-Queens Streetcar Dead?

 

yes, it's always been.

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This always has been and always will be a way for DeBlasio to punch back at Cuomo's control of transit. It's nothing more than a pawn in their infantile game. 

Oh, and it's also a nice slab of pork for Billy D's developer donors. 

Edited by RR503
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