Transfer between City Hall (R/W) and Park Place (2/3)?

[rbrome]

Great renderings!

 

I would like them to use this opportunity to also make the lower level usable by punching stairs through the upper level platform to the lower level and then connecting the lower level to Park Place much like how 14 Street–Union Square’s Broadway platforms are connected to Canarsie’s platforms. The lower level of City Hall could add a lot of terminal capacity to trains coming from Queens and the Upper East Side and this could enable more local trains along Queens Boulevard or Astoria without overserving Brooklyn. Of course, there is also the fact that Astoria and Queens Boulevard share the 60 Street Tunnel…

 

Thanks!

 

They already do use the lower level quite actively for train storage. 

Seems like a good idea to me. And yes, the Cortlandt–Chambers connection was planned and then cancelled; I'm not sure why. ...

Ugh. That's so frustrating. The stations are so ridiculously close, and the space between them is basically the new WTC Transit Hub. They had a clean slate and tons of space to do whatever they wanted, and they didn't build a damn transfer?! That's outrageous. 

[CenSin]

They already do use the lower level quite actively for train storage.

I was thinking more along the lines of passenger-accessible platforms and revenue service on the lower level. I have a hunch that Broadway local capacity is reduced on the southern end by the curves found south of City Hall and around DeKalb Avenue. Of course, this would have to coincide with connecting the local tracks to 63 Street north of the 57 Street–7 Avenue station to make use of the extra capacity; otherwise, the capacity constraint would be the 60 Street Tunnel.

[junion]

Although the project would seem worthy of being built, I am not sure it would help so many people so much.

 

People going to / from Lower Manhattan could simply go to the Park Place station, for     service.

 

Bay Ridge is accessible from the     from Borough Hall in Downtown Brooklyn.

 

The only help would be a connection to the      ,so a Cortland street transfer would make more sense.

[CenSin]

Although the project would seem worthy of being built, I am not sure it would help so many people so much.

 

People going to / from Lower Manhattan could simply go to the Park Place station, for     service.

 

Bay Ridge is accessible from the     from Borough Hall in Downtown Brooklyn.

 

The only help would be a connection to the      ,so a Cortland street transfer would make more sense.

A City Hall connection would provide a transfer that serves 7 Avenue and 8 Avenue equally. From Cortlandt Street, there is only easy access to the ; the and platform is an entire train length away and the and platform even farther.

 

When it’s late at night, getting a transfer in the local area is better than backtracking. There aren’t too many crosstown lines connection Broadway and 7/8 Avenue. Times Square–42 Street is one hell of a walk to transfer between Broadway and 8 Avenue. In fact, transfers from Broadway to any other line is conspicuously absent from Canal Street to South Ferry–Whitehall Street. The transfer to the is only a transfer to a local train; express 7 Avenue service is not reachable without backtracking to Brooklyn, making a transfer at 14 Street–Union Square, or traversing nearly the entire length of the Broadway local tracks.

[Porter]

Ugh. That's so frustrating. The stations are so ridiculously close, and the space between them is basically the new WTC Transit Hub. They had a clean slate and tons of space to do whatever they wanted, and they didn't build a damn transfer?! That's outrageous. 

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the stations in question, but keep in mind that the is caged in. Short of digging a big tunnel, there's no way to provide an enclosed route leading directly to the that doesn't cut across existing entrances/exits. Although I haven't seen the cancelled plans, my best guess is that they planned to run stairs or escalators down from the south end of the platform to a new subterranean corridor leading directly to the open space under the tracks feeding into the Dey Street Concourse; perhaps they'd also offer an elevator on the platform as well. Although they might not technically have to dig under any tracks, this sounds like a very expensive and cumbersome excavation, especially considering that the option for an out-of-system free transfer would cost almost nothing. The most cost-effective solution would be to offer such a free transfer among the following fare zones:

 

Cortland Street BMT

World Trade Center IND

Cortland Street – World Trade Center IRT

 

These stations are remarkably close to one another, and the World Trade Center's Oculus acts as a pedestrian roundabout that seamlessly connects all three. The combined zone would logically be named 'World Trade Center' or 'Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center' and offer the , a free connection that could have (and should have) been established at the original World Trade Center anyway.

[rbrome]

...my best guess is that they planned to run stairs or escalators down from the south end of the platform to a new subterranean corridor leading directly to the open space under the tracks feeding into the Dey Street Concourse; 

 

 

That is exactly what I assumed, as well. The north end of the space under the    is already within fare control. Most of that new corridor could have fit within the WTC "bathtub", and therefore was well within the wide-open space they had to work with when planing the WTC Transit Hub. There are two levels of basement below the floor of the Oculus. The space is there; no digging required, exact perhaps at the very north end where stairs would rise up behind fare control to the  platform. 

 

It seems like it should have been relatively easy to build. 

[Porter]

It seems like it should have been relatively easy to build. 

 

Had you asked me eight years ago, I'd have thought the same. But then I started living in NYC. The is exceptionally adept at complicating otherwise simple endeavors.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Had you asked me eight years ago, I'd have thought the same. But then I started living in NYC. The is exceptionally adept at complicating otherwise simple endeavors.

And inept too.... 

[bobtehpanda]

Had you asked me eight years ago, I'd have thought the same. But then I started living in NYC. The is exceptionally adept at complicating otherwise simple endeavors.

 

The Oculus and the WTC are Port Authority projects unaffiliated with the MTA. If you thought the MTA was bad, you should see the Port Authority.

[Porter]

The Oculus and the WTC are Port Authority projects unaffiliated with the MTA. If you thought the MTA was bad, you should see the Port Authority.

 

I'm aware of the absurdity that is the Port Authority, but I was thinking of the following embarrassments:

- no new South Ferry station until maybe 2017 (five years after Sandy)

- no new Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center station until maybe 2018 (seventeen years after 9/11)

- no free connection between the World Trade Center and the Cortlandt Street

- no Nassau Street BMT lines running through the Montague tunnel after discontinuing the

- no reopening and renovation of the much needed and brain-bleedingly convenient tunnel connecting 34th Street – Herald Square to 34th Street – Penn Station (and leaving perfectly good out-of-system corridors in Manhattan closed in general, despite record low crime, like the virtual pedestrian freeway running under Sixth Avenue)

- no direct access to the from the Mall at the World Trade Center despite having been open for half a year (not including via the Dey Street Concourse, which had remained closed to the public long after construction had concluded because they were afraid of camping vagrants)

 

...and of course...

 

- planning to terminate the at Lexington Avenue & 125th Street in Manhattan instead of Third Avenue & 149th Street in the Bronx

 

There's probably more, but you get the idea.

[rbrome]

...

- no direct access to the from the Mall at the World Trade Center despite having been open for half a year

...

 

There is direct access from the WTC Hub to the    . It's basically the whole east end of the Oculus. It's at the start of the Dey Street corridor, but you don't actually need to walk any length of said corridor. There's also another entrance to the    being worked on from the shopping corridors below 4WTC. 

 

The Oculus will connect to the  , it's just not open yet. 

[Porter]

There is direct access from the WTC Hub to the    . It's basically the whole east end of the Oculus. It's at the start of the Dey Street corridor, but you don't actually need to walk any length of said corridor. There's also another entrance to the    being worked on from the shopping corridors below 4WTC.

 

I should have added 'yet'. Certainly, as you say, there are two connections planned and nearly finished, yet they're just sitting there like the two connections. Totally useless to everyone. How difficult is it to just install the damned turnstiles? If you look at the connection at 4WTC, for example, it's tiny and yet the still refuses to open it. It just doesn't make sense. Not one bit. Neither Westfield nor the Port Authority are holding them back (and certainly Silverstein Properties isn't).

[bobtehpanda]

I'm aware of the absurdity that is the Port Authority, but I was thinking of the following embarrassments:

- no new South Ferry station until maybe 2017 (five years after Sandy) Fair enough.

- no new Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center station until maybe 2018 (seventeen years after 9/11) To be fair, this couldn't really be completed until after the WTC Hub was fully completed a full 15 years after the fact.

- no free connection between the World Trade Center and the Cortlandt Street  The physical connection being built is Port Authority property, so that is largely their fault.

- no Nassau Street BMT lines running through the Montague tunnel after discontinuing the  Nassau St-Montague service was barely used when it was running, so I don't really fault the MTA for this.

- no reopening and renovation of the much needed and brain-bleedingly convenient tunnel connecting 34th Street – Herald Square to 34th Street – Penn Station (and leaving perfectly good out-of-system corridors in Manhattan closed in general, despite record low crime, like the virtual pedestrian freeway running under Sixth Avenue) I believe that this is actually owned by the developer who owns the property; there were discussions about opening it but they fell through. This is the case for a lot of the crappy exits and entrances, like the eternally broken escalators at Union Square.

- no direct access to the from the Mall at the World Trade Center despite having been open for half a year (not including via the Dey Street Concourse, which had remained closed to the public long after construction had concluded because they were afraid of camping vagrants) Isn't this because the Port Authority is still working on the connection to WFC? I haven't been to the area in a while.

 

...and of course...

 

- planning to terminate the at Lexington Avenue & 125th Street in Manhattan instead of Third Avenue & 149th Street in the Bronx

 

There's probably more, but you get the idea.

[rbrome]

I should have added 'yet'. Certainly, as you say, there are two connections planned and nearly finished, yet they're just sitting there like the two connections. Totally useless to everyone. How difficult is it to just install the damned turnstiles? If you look at the connection at 4WTC, for example, it's tiny and yet the still refuses to open it. It just doesn't make sense. Not one bit. Neither Westfield nor the Port Authority are holding them back (and certainly Silverstein Properties isn't).

 

You must mean the direct access from the Oculus balcony to the downtown platform. 

 

But the main connection -- at the Dey St Connector level -- opened a while ago. 

[Porter]

Isn't this because the Port Authority is still working on the connection to WFC? I haven't been to the area in a while.

 

That connection celebrated its third birthday a few days ago, actually. The direct connections to the are located on the opposite side of the complex, in any case. The was perfectly free to do the little work required to open them.

 

You must mean the direct access from the Oculus balcony to the downtown platform. 

 

But the main connection -- at the Dey St Connector level -- opened a while ago. 

 

That may be the main connection, but I'm indeed referring to the two more direct connections leading to the southbound platform. I'm no enemy of stairs, but using the Dey Street Concourse to catch the to Bay Ridge gets annoying after a while. At the original mall, it was just right there when you stepped out of PATH Square (more or less). I am excited that the Chambers Street station will now have two connections instead of one, for what it's worth.

[Around the Horn]

That connection celebrated its third birthday a few days ago, actually. The direct connections to the are located on the opposite side of the complex, in any case. The was perfectly free to do the little work required to open them.

Those entrances are the Port Authority's responsibility not the .

 

[Speaking of the devil can we get a PATH smiley or a smiley of the Port Authority's logo?]

[Porter]

Those entrances are the Port Authority's responsibility not the .

 

[Speaking of the devil can we get a PATH smiley or a smiley of the Port Authority's logo?]

 

Really? Why? It's signage, turnstile banks, vending machines, attendant booths, etc. The Port Authority has no reason to delay the opening. In fact, it has a vested interest in getting them open ASAP (you'd think the would too).

 

I requested a PATH smiley months ago, along with a dozen or so bullets, and one of the moderators said that they're on their way.

[Around the Horn]

The Oculus is entirely the Port Authority's purview. Until a couple years ago, Cortlandt Street on the was also their responsibility. Those exits are outside of their relative station boxes and inside the area considered the Oculus' footprint.

[rbrome]

The Oculus is entirely the Port Authority's purview. Until a couple years ago, Cortlandt Street on the was also their responsibility. Those exits are outside of their relative station boxes and inside the area considered the Oculus' footprint.

 

I'm aware of that, and how inept the PA is, and how poorly they coordinate with the MTA. That doesn't make it acceptable. I'll keep complaining about it until the day I die. This is one area where Cuomo really should be able to step in and help, but it's an area he consistently ignores, even though the WTC is so incredibly high-profile. 

 

The thing is, the PA has a vested interest in this. Better connections to the subway feeds riders to PATH, and shoppers to the mall they've built. They only benefit from additional stations and entrances. 

 

An in-system transfer between the  and     does not directly benefit to PA. But again, it's such a no-brainer for the city that the  and PA really should have found a way to make that happen. 

[Porter]

Is it not probable that these subway portals are indeed mostly built out? Perhaps they have been for a while and the Port Authority is simply waiting for the to provide them with the necessary signage, vending machines, turnstiles, and booths. That seems more likely to me.

 

This explains the delay of the Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center station until 2018:

 

"The PANYNJ is set to give "full access" to the station to the MTA in June 2017 once the temporary World Trade Center PATH entrance is demolished and the Cortlandt Street station foundation is poured." (from Wikipedia)

[rbrome]

Is it not probable that these subway portals are indeed mostly built out? Perhaps they have been for a while and the Port Authority is simply waiting for the to provide them with the necessary signage, vending machines, turnstiles, and booths. That seems more likely to me.

 

This explains the delay of the Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center station until 2018:

 

"The PANYNJ is set to give "full access" to the station to the MTA in June 2017 once the temporary World Trade Center PATH entrance is demolished and the Cortlandt Street station foundation is poured." (from Wikipedia)

 

I think it depends on the station and entrance.

 

The connection to the  is mostly within the PA space - a new hallway - and I suspect the PA has been prioritizing other, more visible public areas that remain unfinished. (The Oculus was opened well before it was finished, after all.) Everything is there except finishes. They could open it now in a temporary state, but they have no motivation to do so. (Actually they do have good reasons to open it ASAP, they just may not be smart enough to realize it.) 

 

The    entrances to the southbound platform (at the Oculus balcony level, and below 4WTC) have probably been turned over to the MTA by now, but I imagine they're simply not a priority for the MTA since the main entrance is already open and most directly connects the main level of the Oculus to both platforms. 

 

The new  station is another story. Ideally the PA would have worked with the MTA to have that well underway. But instead the PA is insisting on a hard handoff when everything touching it is finished on the PA side. That work is progressing, but until it's done, there's not much the MTA can do. 

[Porter]

The new  station is another story. Ideally the PA would have worked with the MTA to have that well underway. But instead the PA is insisting on a hard handoff when everything touching it is finished on the PA side. That work is progressing, but until it's done, there's not much the MTA can do. 

 

The problem is that the 's hands are tied until the Port Authority finishes the demolition of that damned temporary PATH entrance, which is also holding up the construction of the Performing Arts Center (internally 6WTC) and the tail end of the Vehicular Security Center.

[rbrome]

The problem is that the 's hands are tied until the Port Authority finishes the demolition of that damned temporary PATH entrance, which is also holding up the construction of the Performing Arts Center (internally 6WTC) and the tail end of the Vehicular Security Center.

 

...a problem only in the stubborn heads of the PA brass. The new  station and its entrances are 95% within a completed shell space where the MTA could be working on the station right now, if there was any sense in the world. And course   trains are running right now, so it's not like there's a gaping hole at one end of the station without foundation. I haven't ridden through an railfanned that section of the  in a while, but I suspect the entire station shell is essentially ready to turn over, the PA is just being ridiculous about not have two different construction crews working nearby at the same time. But even if there's a bit of platform space at the north end that's not ready for the MTA, the MTA could and should be working on the other 95%, if the PA would just let them. 

[Lance]

 

I'm aware of the absurdity that is the Port Authority, but I was thinking of the following embarrassments:

- no new South Ferry station until maybe 2017 (five years after Sandy) Fair enough.

- no new Cortlandt Street – World Trade Center station until maybe 2018 (seventeen years after 9/11) To be fair, this couldn't really be completed until after the WTC Hub was fully completed a full 15 years after the fact.

- no free connection between the World Trade Center and the Cortlandt Street  The physical connection being built is Port Authority property, so that is largely their fault.

- no Nassau Street BMT lines running through the Montague tunnel after discontinuing the  Nassau St-Montague service was barely used when it was running, so I don't really fault the MTA for this.

- no reopening and renovation of the much needed and brain-bleedingly convenient tunnel connecting 34th Street – Herald Square to 34th Street – Penn Station (and leaving perfectly good out-of-system corridors in Manhattan closed in general, despite record low crime, like the virtual pedestrian freeway running under Sixth Avenue) I believe that this is actually owned by the developer who owns the property; there were discussions about opening it but they fell through. This is the case for a lot of the crappy exits and entrances, like the eternally broken escalators at Union Square.

- no direct access to the from the Mall at the World Trade Center despite having been open for half a year (not including via the Dey Street Concourse, which had remained closed to the public long after construction had concluded because they were afraid of camping vagrants) Isn't this because the Port Authority is still working on the connection to WFC? I haven't been to the area in a while.

 

...and of course...

 

- planning to terminate the at Lexington Avenue & 125th Street in Manhattan instead of Third Avenue & 149th Street in the Bronx

 

There's probably more, but you get the idea.

 

To add on to the comment about Gimbel's Passageway, the plan was to refurbish the passageway as part of a construction project involving the old Hotel Pennsylvania. Plans shifted between either replacing the hotel with an office tower and simply rehabilitating the aging structure. Plans of which have fallen into limbo as the entire project has been sidelined by Vornado, the owners of the hotel.

 

On the subject of Cortlandt St, it's a simple lack of inter-agency cooperation. For a while, it seemed like the Port Authority would build the new subway station as part of the World Trade Center rebuilding project. It was even taken off of the MTA's Capital Program budget and noted that it became a PA project. Obviously, that fell through somewhere along the line, but even then, the PA could've just built the station and worked out something between the two states involved. On the other hand though, perhaps it's a good thing considering how expensive the Oculus was to build. Do we really need two explosively expensive relatively minor-use stations?

[P3F]

I hope the tiles the station using a replica design of the original tiles, similarly to what they did at Cortlandt Street on the line. I would hate to see some kind of modern-minimalist design there, instead.