Transfer between City Hall (R/W) and Park Place (2/3)?

[rbrome]

Why isn't there a transfer between City Hall on the   (and soon,  )  and Park Place on the     ?

 

It seems like it would be relatively easy. It's a very short distance between the ends of the two stations, at the intersection of Park Place and Broadway. 

 

At City Hall station, you could put stairs at the South end of the platform going down, and continuing down through the very end of the west platform on the lower level. (Since diagrams seem to show the lower level platform being shorter than the upper level, perhaps that might not even be necessary.) Then a short passageway, emerging just above the north tracks in the Park Place station. (Park Place is very deep.) Park Place is double-height, with plenty of unused open space above the platform and tracks for short walkway over the north tracks, and then stairs down to the platform. 

 

A transfer there would be very useful, allowing people to also transfer between the        and the   . Since the MTA opted against an in-system transfer to the   at Fulton, this would provide a much-needed downtown transfer between those lines. It should make the under-used   more useful to people with certain commutes. It would certainly improve options during temporary service changes on nights and weekends. 

 

Thoughts?

[P3F]

Well the task is connecting either Cortlandt Street or City Hall to the World Trade Center complex. It comes down to which station would be more useful for a connection.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why isn't there a transfer between City Hall on the   (and soon,  )  and Park Place on the     ?

 

It seems like it would be relatively easy. It's a very short distance between the ends of the two stations, at the intersection of Park Place and Broadway. 

 

At City Hall station, you could put stairs at the South end of the platform going down, and continuing down through the very end of the west platform on the lower level. (Since diagrams seem to show the lower level platform being shorter than the upper level, perhaps that might not even be necessary.) Then a short passageway, emerging just above the north tracks in the Park Place station. (Park Place is very deep.) Park Place is double-height, with plenty of unused open space above the platform and tracks for short walkway over the north tracks, and then stairs down to the platform. 

 

A transfer there would be very useful, allowing people to also transfer between the        and the   . Since the MTA opted against an in-system transfer to the   at Fulton, this would provide a much-needed downtown transfer between those lines. It should make the under-used   more useful to people with certain commutes. It would certainly improve options during temporary service changes on nights and weekends. 

 

Thoughts?

So you're saying that it is a lack of transfers that makes the less appealing and not the fact that it runs like crap?  It has to be the slowest subway line in the system in addition to having some of the worst wait times.  

[S78 via Hylan]

Considering that there are transfers point between the lines at Times Square and Atlantic Av-Barclays Center, is it really needed?

[rbrome]

Well the task is connecting either Cortlandt Street or City Hall to the World Trade Center complex. It comes down to which station would be more useful for a connection.

 

Cortlandt St is already "part" of the WTC Transit Hub, but one of my main gripes with the WTC "Transit Hub" is that it provides no in-system transfers, since it's a PA project, not an MTA project. It's barely a "hub" at all. 

 

But... are they working on an in-system transfer between the   and   at the WTC Hub? I had heard that was considered as a last-minute addition to the plans... not sure yet if they decided to actually build it, though. 

 

If they do connect the   and   at WTC, that would remove much of the need for what I'm proposing. It would still be a pain to walk all the way from the   to the   within the system, but it would technically be possible. 

Considering that there are transfers point between the lines at Times Square and Atlantic Av-Barclays Center, is it really needed?

Those are pretty far away, IMO. 

So you're saying that it is a lack of transfers that makes the less appealing and not the fact that it runs like crap?  It has to be the slowest subway line in the system in addition to having some of the worst wait times.  

Well that's a classic chicken-and-egg problem. The MTA won't improve headways until demand increases, but that won't happen until the line becomes more appealing to riders. Headways are part of it, but better transfers would help make it more appealing as well. One small part of the solution, perhaps? 

...

 

I guess my overall point isn't so much that it would address a pressing need, but more that it's "low-hanging fruit". It would be relatively easy / inexpensive, and would certainly provide some value. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well that's a classic chicken-and-egg problem. The MTA won't improve headways until demand increases, but that won't happen until the line becomes more appealing to riders. Headways are part of it, but better transfers would help make it more appealing as well. One small part of the solution, perhaps? 

...

 

I guess my overall point isn't so much that it would address a pressing need, but more that it's "low-hanging fruit". It would be relatively easy / inexpensive, and would certainly provide some value. 

There are people who need to transfer to the and try not to because it runs horribly.  Where there are alternatives, people use them, so I think the real issue is headways more than anything else. On paper the seems to have decent headways, but what actually happens is a different story.  I was reviewing Yelp comments on the and just about everybody complained about excessive waits (particularly during rush hour) and trains not adhering to the schedule, so the question is why is the so delayed/missing?    

[West End]

Not between the and the , but there's definitely a desire for additional connections between the Broadway and the 8th Ave. Lines. Transferring from the / in Astoria to the through Times Square is kind of a joke -- it's faster to do an out-of-system transfer between 57th/7th and Columbus Circle (which a lot of people do daily).

 

I'm not sure if the City Hall transfer would really address this issue, but open to any ideas that would better connect the two lines.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Around the Horn]

So you're saying that it is a lack of transfers that makes the less appealing and not the fact that it runs like crap?  It has to be the slowest subway line in the system in addition to having some of the worst wait times.  

In personal experience, it's both. I would stay on the more often, rather than trying to fit on a crowded or if I had more convenient transfers from the to whatever line I'm taking. I would also avoid the more crowded portion of Broadway in Midtown if there were convenient transfers from the or to the in Lower Manhattan (SoHo in the (F)'s case).

 

 so the question is why is the so delayed/missing?    

 

Fumigation at Forest Hills-71 Avenue. Trains are often delayed and form conga-lines waiting to get into 71 Av, because it takes a while to ensure everyone is truly off, before the train enters the relay. Any delay Queens bound turns into a larger delay Brooklyn bound as more people reach the respective stations further down the line

 

(in general, most of the delays in the system aren't initially as large as they are are later. Delays tend to cascade, and become worse as the first train after the delay travels down the line (that's why its always Bay Ridge, at the southern end of the line, complaining about 20 minute waits in rush hour) and has to deal with passenger loads that normally would fit in the 2-3 scheduled departures that should have come before it)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In personal experience, it's both. I would stay on the more often, rather than trying to fit on a crowded or if I had more convenient transfers from the to whatever line I'm taking. I would also avoid the more crowded portion of Broadway in Midtown if there were convenient transfers from the or to the in Lower Manhattan (SoHo in the (f)'s case).

 

 

Fumigation at Forest Hills-71 Avenue. Trains are often delayed and form conga-lines waiting to get into 71 Av, because it takes a while to ensure everyone is truly off, before the train enters the relay. Any delay Queens bound turns into a larger delay Brooklyn bound as more people reach the respective stations further down the line

 

(in general, most of the delays in the system aren't initially as large as they are are later. Delays tend to cascade, and become worse as the first train after the delay travels down the line (that's why its always Bay Ridge, at the southern end of the line, complaining about 20 minute waits in rush hour) and has to deal with passenger loads that normally would fit in the 2-3 scheduled departures that should have come before it)

Interesting.  I wonder if the cars that are used on the could help to mitigate the delays in general (in other words, newer cars). Those R46 trains IMO are really slow.   The doors open and close slower than other cars, etc.  

[Around the Horn]

Interesting.  I wonder if the cars that are used on the could help to mitigate the delays in general (in other words, newer cars). Those R46 trains IMO are really slow.   The doors open and close slower than other cars, etc.  

 

That's part of it. It's no secret that trains of 60 foot cars handle crowds better due to more doors per train (40 vs 32). It's definitely a better ride when I end up getting an R160 on the weekends (They seem to run more of them on the on the weekends than the weekdays).

[CenSin]

Between Midtown Manhattan and Brooklyn, the has transfers to 1 local along the west side (), 1 local along the east side (), and then the , , , , and at Canal Street and the addition of the , , and at 14 Street–Union Square. Notice the scarcity of west side options. A connection to the , , , , and would be pretty useful for those needing more west side options. Cortlandt Street, on the other hand, would not be as useful as a transfer station to subway riders. The can already access the , , , , and ; those are not the routes it needs more connections to. It would be missing a transfer to the , and the and would be a long walk away.

[P3F]

Between Midtown Manhattan and Brooklyn, the has transfers to 1 local along the west side 1, 1 local along the east side ( ), and then the , , , , and at Canal Street and the addition of the , , and at 14 Street–Union Square. Notice the scarcity of west side options. A connection to the , , , , and would be pretty useful for those needing more west side options. Cortlandt Street, on the other hand, would not be as useful as a transfer station to subway riders. The can already access the , , , , and ; those are not the routes it needs more connections to. It would be missing a transfer to the , and the and would be a long walk away.

If there was a transfer built from Cortlandt Street, it would be made to World Trade Center - Chambers Street, and not Fulton Street. The question is whether the transfer from the to the WTC station should be made from Cortlandt Street or from City Hall.

[bobtehpanda]

If there was a transfer built from Cortlandt Street, it would be made to World Trade Center - Chambers Street, and not Fulton Street. The question is whether the transfer from the to the WTC station should be made from Cortlandt Street or from City Hall.

 

There already is a connection from Cortlandt, it's just not paid. Why the heck would we build a second one?

[CenSin]

If there was a transfer built from Cortlandt Street, it would be made to World Trade Center - Chambers Street, and not Fulton Street. The question is whether the transfer from the to the WTC station should be made from Cortlandt Street or from City Hall.

You get better options from City Hall.

[P3F]

You get better options from City Hall.

It depends on where it'd be easier to build.

[46Dover]

That would also mean a transfer to the & trains if you're talking about Park Place. Would also take a environmental study to see if such a connection could be possible

[P3F]

Also, is it known how the will connect to the Oculus complex?

There already is a connection from Cortlandt, it's just not paid. Why the heck would we build a second one?

Would you kindly read CenSin's post above regarding connections.

[Fresh Pond]

 

 

Also, is it known how the will connect to the Oculus complex?

Would you kindly read CenSin's post above regarding connections.

The southbound platform will directly lead to it

[rbrome]

The southbound platform will directly lead to it

 

Actually I think the northbound platform will connect more directly, as that platform is directly adjacent to the Oculus balcony and upper level of the passage that connects to 4WTC. It's not clear to me how the southbound platform will connect (overpass or underpass), but I'm sure that it will. 

[P3F]

The southbound platform will directly lead to it

Where will the northbound platform connect, then?

[Around the Horn]

Actually I think the northbound platform will connect more directly, as that platform is directly adjacent to the Oculus balcony and upper level of the passage that connects to 4WTC. It's not clear to me how the southbound platform will connect (overpass or underpass), but I'm sure that it will. 

 

 

Where will the northbound platform connect, then?

 

The northbound platform will lead directly into both the second level of the Oculus and the second level of the WTC Mall near 4 World Trade.

 

I assume that the southbound platform will lead to that elevated walkway that dead ends near the PATH turnstiles (make a hard left just before the stairs down)

[rbrome]

This diagram shows the  station. 1WTC is about where the words "WTC WEST COUNCOURSE" are. The  station that little rectangle immediately below street level, between the Oculus structure and the two little trees. The balcony of the Oculus is at the same (platform) level as the station, and there are already glass doors installed between the Oculus balcony and the uptown  platform, they're just covered and locked until the  station is actually finished. 

 

Here's a view of the  station as seen from the WTC shops today:

 

https://goo.gl/photos/szHwTHd7qrWdHTTZ9

 

This is in the upper-level passage connecting the Oculus to 4WTC (you can see the Bose store there). Through the fencing in the distance is the actual  station (shell). 

[rbrome]

Here is what I had in mind for the     to     transfer, specifically.

 

I did some basic 3D renderings (still and video) of the route a transfer passage might take. Start with the existing MTA neighborhood map, showing how close the station envelopes actually are. They're really close. It would be a very short transfer.

 

My renderings aren't perfectly to scale, but I believe them to be roughly representative. In these renderings, the green part is the proposed new transfer: 

 

https://goo.gl/photos/Q4gGsiPySMyMiKsT9

 

It would involve a new tunnel under the existing downtown  track. I know tunneling under an active rail tunnel is a big deal, but there are at least three mitigating factors: 

1. It would be a narrow pedestrian tunnel (as opposed to a rail or road tunnel.)
2. The Park Place station is so deep that even with the transfer passage entering Park Place above the track, I believe the passage would be well below the level of the  (and soon,  ) tunnel. I haven't measured it, but eyeballing it while going to and from the platforms multiple times over several years at both stations... I'm pretty sure. 
3. The standard practice with these types of projects is to grout the soil around whatever you're digging under. That used to be an extreme practice, but my understanding is that it's becoming relatively commonplace (and cheaper) these days. For a mere pedestrian tunnel of such small size, it should be easy. (In theory...)

[Porter]

Seems like a good idea to me. And yes, the Cortlandt–Chambers connection was planned and then cancelled; I'm not sure why. In fact, I don't even know how they planned to physically connect them.

 

 

Also, is it known how the will connect to the Oculus complex?

Actually I think the northbound platform will connect more directly, as that platform is directly adjacent to the Oculus balcony and upper level of the passage that connects to 4WTC. It's not clear to me how the southbound platform will connect (overpass or underpass), but I'm sure that it will. 

Where will the northbound platform connect, then?

The northbound platform will lead directly into both the second level of the Oculus and the second level of the WTC Mall near 4 World Trade.

 

I assume that the southbound platform will lead to that elevated walkway that dead ends near the PATH turnstiles (make a hard left just before the stairs down)

 

There are (purportedly) portals beneath the tracks on both the north and south sides that lead to both the northbound and southbound platforms, including ADA access.

 

[CenSin]

 

Here is what I had in mind for the     to     transfer, specifically.

 

I did some basic 3D renderings (still and video) of the route a transfer passage might take. Start with the existing MTA neighborhood map, showing how close the station envelopes actually are. They're really close. It would be a very short transfer.

 

My renderings aren't perfectly to scale, but I believe them to be roughly representative. In these renderings, the green part is the proposed new transfer: 

 

https://goo.gl/photos/Q4gGsiPySMyMiKsT9

 

It would involve a new tunnel under the existing downtown  track. I know tunneling under an active rail tunnel is a big deal, but there are at least three mitigating factors: 

1. It would be a narrow pedestrian tunnel (as opposed to a rail or road tunnel.)
2. The Park Place station is so deep that even with the transfer passage entering Park Place above the track, I believe the passage would be well below the level of the  (and soon,  ) tunnel. I haven't measured it, but eyeballing it while going to and from the platforms multiple times over several years at both stations... I'm pretty sure. 
3. The standard practice with these types of projects is to grout the soil around whatever you're digging under. That used to be an extreme practice, but my understanding is that it's becoming relatively commonplace (and cheaper) these days. For a mere pedestrian tunnel of such small size, it should be easy. (In theory...)

 

Great renderings!

 

I would like them to use this opportunity to also make the lower level usable by punching stairs through the upper level platform to the lower level and then connecting the lower level to Park Place much like how 14 Street–Union Square’s Broadway platforms are connected to Canarsie’s platforms. The lower level of City Hall could add a lot of terminal capacity to trains coming from Queens and the Upper East Side and this could enable more local trains along Queens Boulevard or Astoria without overserving Brooklyn. Of course, there is also the fact that Astoria and Queens Boulevard share the 60 Street Tunnel…