Overnight interlining scheduling

[Deucey]

So I've noticed that during overnights, when trains are running every 18-20 minutes on each route, typically one train shows up immediately after another when interlined. Example: arrives one minute, then within ~5 minutes of that ; then 13 minutes later, another , wash rinse repeat.

 

And the trains tend to be one close to SRO, and the one following not so much.

 

So why doesn't - to ensure frequent service, passenger safety and more balanced loads, run the trains at even time intervals - like and 9 minutes apart during 18 minute headways; or schedule for to arrive at 34th or 42nd at the same time, etc?

[checkmatechamp13]

The only logical reason I can think of is something to do with transfers, but logically, I don't think there would be too many people traveling from Brooklyn to The Bronx (along the ) at that time of the night.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The only logical reason I can think of is something to do with transfers, but logically, I don't think there would be too many people traveling from Brooklyn to The Bronx (along the ) at that time of the night.

What does where people are traveling to or from have to do with it? In other words, why are you our bringing up the idea of people traveling from Brooklyn to the Bronx? I also don't agree with you. The trains are crowded at all times of the night.

[Around the Horn]

What does where people are traveling to or from have to do with it? In other words, why are you our bringing up the idea of people traveling from Brooklyn to the Bronx? I also don't agree with you. The trains are crowded at all times of the night.

 

I think he's trying to say that the and the are scheduled close together for theoretical transfers from Brooklyn to the Bronx and vice versa.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think he's trying to say that the and the are scheduled close together for theoretical transfers from Brooklyn to the Bronx and vice versa.

I would hope that's the case but either way I think service sucks at night.  The trains are crowded enough that they could run a little more service and better space trains.  These are perfect examples of how the pushes people to drive, and then they do so at a higher rate versus using the subway or the buses.

[Around the Horn]

I would hope that's the case but either way I think service sucks at night.  The trains are crowded enough that they could run a little more service and better space trains.  These are perfect examples of how the pushes people to drive, and then they do so at a higher rate versus using the subway or the buses.

 

They could definitely run more frequent trains at night, particularly midnight to 1AM, often 2AM on weekends where Manhattan is still very busy.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They could definitely run more frequent trains at night, particularly midnight to 1AM, often 2AM on weekends where Manhattan is still very busy.

What's also very frustrating is if you have to make connections from the subway to the bus.  I missed the last express bus to Riverdale years ago and was too far north and west to make my way to Metro-North, so I opted for the train since it was the closest.   Well it took me a good two hours to get home.  The train wasn't a terrible wait, but the Bx10 was incredible.  Lesson learned.  

[FLX9304]

What does where people are traveling to or from have to do with it? In other words, why are you our bringing up the idea of people traveling from Brooklyn to the Bronx? I also don't agree with you. The trains are crowded at all times of the night.

I am taking your word on this this time around, no matter what kind of the owl time you are in, your train is STILL CROWDED

 

 

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[RTOMan]

They could definitely run more frequent trains at night, particularly midnight to 1AM, often 2AM on weekends where Manhattan is still very busy.

 

That means Crew Costs go up, they looking to cut jobs not add them..

 

I do not see that happening..

 

Yet..

[Deucey]

That means Crew Costs go up, they looking to cut jobs not add them..

 

I do not see that happening..

 

Yet..

So why not, like I originally suggested, evenly space trains for balanced loading and passenger safety?

 

9 minute headways on the Lex Local overnight when and run every 18 minutes

 

8 minute headways on Broadway-7th Local when run every 16 minutes

 

10 minutes headways when run every 20 minutes on Broadway.

 

Ie if leaves Brooklyn Bridge or 125th St at :00 :18 :36 :54... leaves at :09, :27 :45 :03...

 

Same on every other line.

 

Add to it timed transfers: and meet up at 59th St for passenger transfers; and do the same at 34th St; and do the same at Roosevelt.

 

Why couldn't that be done?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So why not, like I originally suggested, evenly space trains for balanced loading and passenger safety?

 

9 minute headways on the Lex Local overnight when and run every 18 minutes

 

8 minute headways on Broadway-7th Local when run every 16 minutes

 

10 minutes headways when run every 20 minutes on Broadway.

 

Ie if leaves Brooklyn Bridge or 125th St at :00 :18 :36 :54... leaves at :09, :27 :45 :03...

 

Same on every other line.

 

Add to it timed transfers: and meet up at 59th St for passenger transfers; and do the same at 34th St; and do the same at Roosevelt.

 

Why couldn't that be done?

It's all about money.  Re-writing schedules costs money too and may require additional staff.  When the talks about reducing costs, they're usually focused on cutting service or maximizing what can be done with existing service, and unless the changes are minor, it usually means added costs.  It's something I've been talking about for a while.  I still believe that they may be doing underhanded things with subway service because they already do it with bus service.  They admitted shortly after the 2010 cuts that when bus drivers would call out sick, they simply wouldn't replace that driver.  That saves them money.  

 

People here have said it's not possible to do with the subway, but to that I say, anything is possible. The schedules are not exactly written in stone, and it's not like anyone would really know if staff wasn't replaced or not since most people don't actually know that a schedule exists, so who is to say what the doesn't do?  Despite people telling me that I'm talking about "conspiracies" that don't exist, we're talking about an agency that has come under severe scrutiny over the last several years for constantly raising fares while service deteriorates, and what has their response been? We're cutting costs.  They don't specify where, but they repeatedly make that claim and make it as if they're proud of it, while a lot of the cuts come from service cuts, not necessarily cuts elsewhere like project managers or other areas where they should be cutting back.

[checkmatechamp13]

What does where people are traveling to or from have to do with it? In other words, why are you our bringing up the idea of people traveling from Brooklyn to the Bronx? I also don't agree with you. The trains are crowded at all times of the night.

 

Always looking for some way to disagree with me, huh? 

 

I think he's trying to say that the and the are scheduled close together for theoretical transfers from Brooklyn to the Bronx and vice versa.

 

Correct.

 

It's all about money.  Re-writing schedules costs money too and may require additional staff.  

 

Nowadays, I'm sure they could do it using some kind of program to write a schedule that does the desired thing (spacing the overnight trains out in that manner). Shouldn't cost too much.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Always looking for some way to disagree with me, huh?

I don't have to "look". You make assumptions that simply aren't true.

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't have to "look". You make assumptions that simply aren't true.

 

Not in this case. I said that the only logical reason that they would schedule the & like that is if they're focused on people who need to travel between somewhere in Brooklyn (along the line) and somewhere in The Bronx (along the line). I said that at that time of the night, there's likely not too many people looking to make that sort of trip, relative to the total number of riders along Lexington Avenue. Therefore, they should focus on providing even headways so that intra-Manhattan riders (including those who need to transfer to other lines such as the or can have a better shot at making their transfers. Not to mention other connections such as local buses, express buses, the SI Ferry, etc.)

 

Or are you making the claim that there are tons of Brooklyn-Bronx riders (specifically between & train neighborhoods) and therefore they should focus on those riders at the expense of the others? Because that's the only way I would be making an assumption that's "simply not true". 

[Wallyhorse]

Not in this case. I said that the only logical reason that they would schedule the & like that is if they're focused on people who need to travel between somewhere in Brooklyn (along the line) and somewhere in The Bronx (along the line). I said that at that time of the night, there's likely not too many people looking to make that sort of trip, relative to the total number of riders along Lexington Avenue. Therefore, they should focus on providing even headways so that intra-Manhattan riders (including those who need to transfer to other lines such as the or can have a better shot at making their transfers. Not to mention other connections such as local buses, express buses, the SI Ferry, etc.)

 

Or are you making the claim that there are tons of Brooklyn-Bronx riders (specifically between & train neighborhoods) and therefore they should focus on those riders at the expense of the others? Because that's the only way I would be making an assumption that's "simply not true". 

Then what they should be really doing (and I believe having to on weekends for now with the actually running all times to replace the in Brooklyn) is to have it set up where in theory, the and are all running local and spread out so there is a train along the main portion (BB to 125) every 6-7 minutes.  With crowds being what they apparently are, that kind of interval is likely necessary in this day and age.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not in this case. I said that the only logical reason that they would schedule the & like that is if they're focused on people who need to travel between somewhere in Brooklyn (along the line) and somewhere in The Bronx (along the line). I said that at that time of the night, there's likely not too many people looking to make that sort of trip, relative to the total number of riders along Lexington Avenue. Therefore, they should focus on providing even headways so that intra-Manhattan riders (including those who need to transfer to other lines such as the or can have a better shot at making their transfers. Not to mention other connections such as local buses, express buses, the SI Ferry, etc.)

 

Or are you making the claim that there are tons of Brooklyn-Bronx riders (specifically between & train neighborhoods) and therefore they should focus on those riders at the expense of the others? Because that's the only way I would be making an assumption that's "simply not true".

 

I'm not making the claim you made it, so it's on you to clarify. I think you're underestimating where people are traveling to in general. It isn't about one over the other. With gentrification people are traveling all over the place, many for work purposes. I'm not going to say that Brooklyn-Bronx travel is off the charts but I don't think it's as low as you're trying to paint it either. If we were talking about back in the day, I would say you're probably right, but now people are going everywhere, not only for work, but because a good amount of Brooklynites moved to the Bronx, something that has been well documented. Then there are the transplants like Deucey... Aside from that, places outside of the Manhattan core already see crap service as it is.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm not making the claim you made it, so it's on you to clarify. I think you're underestimating where people are traveling to in general. It isn't about one over the other. With gentrification people are traveling all over the place, many for work purposes. I'm not going to say that Brooklyn-Bronx travel is off the charts but I don't think it's as low as you're trying to paint it either. If we were talking about back in the day, I would say you're probably right, but now people are going everywhere, not only for work, but because a good amount of Brooklynites moved to the Bronx, something that has been well documented. Then there are the transplants like Deucey... Aside from that, places outside of the Manhattan core already see crap service as it is.

 

Yeah, but specifically from Brooklyn along the to The Bronx along the ? The people trying to transfer to the Bronx-bound at Broadway/Lafayette or from the to any other Brooklyn-bound train don't matter?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yeah, but specifically from Brooklyn along the to The Bronx along the ? The people trying to transfer to the Bronx-bound at Broadway/Lafayette or from the to any other Brooklyn-bound train don't matter?

The Lex line is the busiest in the system, so what do you think?  That late at night, I think they should be able to schedule and hold trains to benefit everybody, not select people.  Manhattan riders aren't any more important than anyone else, and if anything, they have far more transit options that other riders.  

[checkmatechamp13]

The Lex line is the busiest in the system, so what do you think?  That late at night, I think they should be able to schedule and hold trains to benefit everybody, not select people.  Manhattan riders aren't any more important than anyone else, and if anything, they have far more transit options that other riders.  

 

Good, so without realizing it, you agreed with me. Even headways allows better connections to all of the subway & bus lines that the & connect with, while still providing a reasonable wait for whoever happens to need to travel between train neighborhoods in The Bronx and train neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Good, so without realizing it, you agreed with me. Even headways allows better connections to all of the subway & bus lines that the & connect with, while still providing a reasonable wait for whoever happens to need to travel between train neighborhoods in The Bronx and train neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

That's funny.  Your plan specifically called for giving priority to riders in Manhattan on the premise that they're aren't that many riders going from Brooklyn to the Bronx and vice versa.  I'm not sure how you can claim to want even headways for all (which you note in parenthesis), but then specifically refer to intra-Manhattan riders? 

[Deucey]

Yeah, but specifically from Brooklyn along the to The Bronx along the ? The people trying to transfer to the Bronx-bound at Broadway/Lafayette or from the to any other Brooklyn-bound train don't matter?

That's my point on this thread: if you have two back-to-back trains on Lex or either of the Broadway lines and then nothing for 12-20 minutes, you have a guaranteed situation where you're getting home 20-40 minutes later because you've missed your train.

 

Whereas if you had trains evenly spaced in Manhattan to operate 8 minutes after the other during 16 minute headways, The longest anyone could wait for a connecting train is 12 minutes (assuming that redrawing the schedules takes into account avoiding situations where, for example, and arrive at Bleecker Street at the same time).

[checkmatechamp13]

That's funny.  Your plan specifically called for giving priority to riders in Manhattan on the premise that they're aren't that many riders going from Brooklyn to the Bronx and vice versa.  I'm not sure how you can claim to want even headways for all (which you note in parenthesis), but then specifically refer to intra-Manhattan riders? 

 

Well yeah, because the & only run together in Manhattan. Not sure how you can space out trains evenly if they're not even running on the same line.

 

Whether those riders are ultimately transferring to another service or not, they still benefit from even spacing. A rider traveling from Grand Central to Bleecker Street to catch the to Brooklyn is still using the same Lexington Avenue Line as somebody traveling from Grand Central who happens to live around Bleecker Street. This isn't rocket science.

 

That's my point on this thread: if you have two back-to-back trains on Lex or either of the Broadway lines and then nothing for 12-20 minutes, you have a guaranteed situation where you're getting home 20-40 minutes later because you've missed your train.

 

Whereas if you had trains evenly spaced in Manhattan to operate 8 minutes after the other during 16 minute headways, The longest anyone could wait for a connecting train is 12 minutes (assuming that redrawing the schedules takes into account avoiding situations where, for example, and arrive at Bleecker Street at the same time).

 

Someone gets it. 

 

On a side note, I think the should be extended to Bowling Green overnights. For a three stop extension, it provides an additional option for riders connecting to/from the train and Staten Island Ferry (the train already has a scheduled connection with the at Nevins, though I suppose riders coming from the West Side who need to reach the would benefit as well). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well yeah, because the & only run together in Manhattan. Not sure how you can space out trains evenly if they're not even running on the same line.

 

Whether those riders are ultimately transferring to another service or not, they still benefit from even spacing. A rider traveling from Grand Central to Bleecker Street to catch the to Brooklyn is still using the same Lexington Avenue Line as somebody traveling from Grand Central who happens to live around Bleecker Street. This isn't rocket science.

 

 

 

Someone gets it.

 

Listen I've been taking the subway far longer than you have. The point about even spacing is not a hard concept to get. Throwing in how it should serve to benefit intra-Manhattan riders should not be attached to that statement if we're talking about evenly spacing trains for the entire system, which is the point of the thread. Doesn't matter what line it is and where it runs, as if Manhattan riders are special. You are trying to gloss over that point and use a specific example of how the & run together in Manhattan. Don't try to tie in what Deucey is saying which is a GENERAL point with your specific point. Not one and the same.

[checkmatechamp13]

Listen I've been taking the subway far longer than you have. The point about even spacing is not a hard concept to get. Throwing in how it should serve to benefit intra-Manhattan riders should not be attached to that statement if we're talking about evenly spacing trains for the entire system, which is the point of the thread. Doesn't matter what line it is and where it runs, as if Manhattan riders are special. You are trying to gloss over that point and use a specific example of how the & run together in Manhattan. Don't try to tie in what Deucey is saying which is a GENERAL point with your specific point. Not one and the same.

 

I said:

 

Therefore, they should focus on providing even headways so that intra-Manhattan riders (including those who need to transfer to other lines such as the   or   can have a better shot at making their transfers. Not to mention other connections such as local buses, express buses, the SI Ferry, etc.)

 

Most of those riders transferring to those lines I mentioned are going to the outer boroughs, are they not?

 

I don't get how you could think I have some bias towards Manhattan when you know I live on Staten Island (i.e. An outer borough) and have had to make trips home late at night. I would say the same thing about any corridor where the trains interline like that. 4th Avenue in Brooklyn, Queens Blvd, etc. The trains should be spaced evenly instead of bunched up, unless there is a good reason such as a large number of people transferring between those lines on that trunk where a timed connection makes more sense.

 

And for that matter, any bus corridor should be run like that as well. If you have two or three different buses on the same trunk they should make an attempt to coordinate them to minimize wait times.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

So I've noticed that during overnights, when trains are running every 18-20 minutes on each route, typically one train shows up immediately after another when interlined. 

 

What "interlining"? Interlining doesn't happen on the subway side of the house the way it does with buses.

 

You're thinking of a simple case of two routes (e.g. and ) sharing a set of tracks.