Explosion In Subway Near Port Authority

[quadcorder]

Can we get back on topic? Is there anything remaining to discuss about this incident (any remaining closure, etc...) or should this thread be locked?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, quadcorder said:

Can we get back on topic? Is there anything remaining to discuss about this incident (any remaining closure, etc...) or should this thread be locked?

And what exactly is the topic about?  You seem to think that when a thread is posted there is ONE topic to discuss. I see nothing wrong with what's being discussed.  We're talking about a guy who tried to blow himself up in a suicide attempt and kill innocent Americans and why that happened.   What would you like us to talk about?  You simply cannot have such discussions be as cut and dry as you try to make them, otherwise it stifles discussion and makes the forums BORING. I posted the topic with a few things in mind... First to put it up since this is a transit forum, and second to discuss it and how it may impact our transportation system now and in the future. I think it's a very important topic to discuss.  This is perhaps the first such attack that we've had underground and all you think we should talk about is service disruptions and if anyone was injured?  Really? I would think things like what is the  doing to prevent such attempts going forward would be discussed? We've been hearing about the subways being vulnerable now for years and with all of the other infrastructure issues we have now, this is just another issue to deal with.  I think some people have been calling for more a NYPD presence down below even before this, and I believe they've been stationing more undercover cops here and there.

[MysteriousBtrain]

41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think some people have been calling for more a NYPD presence down below even before this, and I believe they've been stationing more undercover cops here and there.

A lot more cops are being stationed at more Stations since Monday. Jay Street-Metrotech, 3 Av-149/138 St, Broadway-Lafayette Street, Barclays Center to name a few.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

A lot more cops are being stationed at more Stations since Monday. Jay Street-Metrotech, 3 Av-149/138 St, Broadway-Lafayette Street, Barclays Center to name a few.

Yeah the ones that you know about.  I also saw some in Grand Central last night... The types with the full body gear on and automatic rifles.

[46Dover]

Police presence was heavy around Staten Island Ferry Area today

[itmaybeokay]

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I have a hard time calling white nut jobs "terrorists" that go on shooting rampages.  That Vegas guy was just a nutcase.  Plain and simple.  If he was part of some white militia or part of a plot to take down the government, then maybe you'd be on to something. 

Well let me ask you this: The intentional running over pedestrians, which has been called an act of terror by many - do you find that to be terrorism? 

If your answer is Yes in the New York cases but No in Charlottesville - try and articulate why without mentioning race. 

You know, as a white male, it took me the better part of my life to realize that thoughts like the first sentence you wrote there are latent expressions of the systemic racism which is rooted deep in our society. 

I'm not calling you a racist - I'm not making that judgement - I'm just saying there's a very heavy systemic disparity and Its woefully slow to fade. 

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What about those black guys that yell and scream by 125th street about the white man being a devil? Are they terrorists? I don't know, but I do know that I cross the street when I see them.  

Free speech isn't terrorism. 

So what makes terrorism terrorism anyway? Well, strictly speaking US Code Title 18 § 2331 does: It's explicitly defined. 

Quote

(5)the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—

    (A)involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    (B)appear to be intended—

          (i)to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

          (ii)to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

          (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

   (C)occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

I contend that a mass shooting at a concert appears to be intended to intimidate a civilian population. 

18 hours ago, Deucey said:

Or a white supremacist traveling from Baltimore to stab black men in Times Square because he's hellbent on discouraging white women from engaging in interracial relationships...

Can we start profiling consumers of and participants in white supremacy acts and causes too? 

And the fact there always seems to be a mass shooting with an angry white male conservative doing the shooting, can we profile gun clubs, shooting ranges, Breitbart and Infowars commenters and the like as well, since gun control in the area of manufacturing isn't a conversation this country is willing to have?

I only ask because as a black male, I'm more likely to experience terrorism from white supremacists, angry gun nuts and people mad Jim Crow ended than all of us - irrespective of race - are from Islamists...

I agree that authorities actually do need to start profiling white supremacists - really the far-right in general. 

According to the Government Accountability Office, there have been 85 attacks by violent extremists between 9/12/2001 and 12/31/2016.

23 of those incidents are attributed to 'radical Islamists' • 62 of them are attributed to violent far-right extremists. 

 

if you ask me, we're all most likely to experience terrorism from the far right. But your point is well taken.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

Well let me ask you this: The intentional running over pedestrians, which has been called an act of terror by many - do you find that to be terrorism? 

If your answer is Yes in the New York cases but No in Charlottesville - try and articulate why without mentioning race. 

You know, as a white male, it took me the better part of my life to realize that thoughts like the first sentence you wrote there are latent expressions of the systemic racism which is rooted deep in our society. 

I'm not calling you a racist - I'm not making that judgement - I'm just saying there's a very heavy systemic disparity and Its woefully slow to fade. 

Free speech isn't terrorism. 

So what makes terrorism terrorism anyway? Well, strictly speaking US Code Title 18 § 2331 does: It's explicitly defined. 

I contend that a mass shooting at a concert appears to be intended to intimidate a civilian population. 

I agree that authorities actually do need to start profiling white supremacists - really the far-right in general. 

According to the Government Accountability Office, there have been 85 attacks by violent extremists between 9/12/2001 and 12/31/2016.

23 of those incidents are attributed to 'radical Islamists' • 62 of them are attributed to violent far-right extremists. 

 

if you ask me, we're all most likely to experience terrorism from the far right. But your point is well taken.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

 

 

The guy that ran over those people supposedly did so in support of ISIS.

 

Quote

Wednesday: Authorities revealed Saipov asked investigators to display ISIS flags in his hospital room and said he felt good about what he’d done. Officials said a search of his cellphone showed he watched about 90 ISIS-related videos, including footage of ISIS fighters beheading people and terrorists killing a prisoner by running him over with a tank. 

Source: https://nypost.com/2017/12/12/nypd-officers-honored-for-response-during-bike-path-terror-attack/

If a white man kills people and it's terrorism, that's what it is. I spoke about Timothy McVeigh and his act being a terrorist act.  The incident in Vegas... I haven't heard anything that indicates it's an act of terror.  It's a mass shooting by a deranged individual for sure, but was he part of some larger group plotting to attack Americans or the American government? I haven't heard that as of yet.  I guess my point is, terrorism needs to be defined, and when I think of it in the context of the U.S., there are two groups that come to mind:  Homegrown terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and white militia groups that want to destroy our government, and the radicalized types (homegrown and those that come from abroad) that show support to larger organizations like ISIS.

Having lived in Europe, I understand terrorism very well.  France has a much bigger problem than we do mainly because of how parts of the population there can be alienated and how rampant racism is against those who aren't white French people.  The Arabs and blacks usually live in slums.  It's appalling that it still goes on there in 2017 and they're supposedly a "civilized Western country".  We don't have that type of problem (at least not on the same level here). I think the main issue we face here is a different type of terrorism in terms of the cause of it.  We have a hatred of Americans and the Western way of life here for some, and for others, a hatred of the American government and how we're evolving as a country.  I think both have to be watched and the people responsible have to be profiled.  

[itmaybeokay]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I guess my point is, terrorism needs to be defined.

It is defined. It's defined by US Code Title 18 § 2331 - if you look closely you'll note I already said this and included the definition in my post. 

 

But yes. I agree that we need to be keeping tabs on potentially violent extremists - regardless of ideology.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

It is defined. It's defined by US Code Title 18 § 2331 - if you look closely you'll note I already said this and included the definition in my post. 

 

But yes. I agree that we need to be keeping tabs on potentially violent extremists - regardless of ideology.

No need to roll your eyes. I saw what you wrote.  You didn't answer my question though.  You brought up the Vegas incident and then conveniently omitted my response in your answer.  I should be doing the side eye... 

[Porter]

On 12/12/2017 at 11:00 PM, Deucey said:

This isn't tribal; it's political based on lines the British and League of Nations drew back when the Ottoman Empire was vanquished

I blame the majority of Islamic terrorism in the west on the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Had the allies helped rebuild it after WWI as they helped rebuild Japan after WWII, the entire region would have been far more stable today. Imagine if Japan were carved up by European powers after WWII and then invaded by the USA; I could imagine kamikaze pilots as the ones flying their planes into the Twin Towers in such a scenario.

[LTA1992]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:52 PM, Skipper said:

I blame the majority of Islamic terrorism in the west on the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Had the allies helped rebuild it after WWI as they helped rebuild Japan after WWII, the entire region would have been far more stable today. Imagine if Japan were carved up by European powers after WWII and then invaded by the USA; I could imagine kamikaze pilots as the ones flying their planes into the Twin Towers in such a scenario.

I blame the majority of terrorism in the west on the west. Let's not kid ourselves here. 

Money and power. Many of these acts of terrorism are, honestly, the natural effects of our own governments actions.

[Porter]

1 hour ago, LTA1992 said:

I blame the majority of terrorism in the west on the west. Let's not kid ourselves here. 

Money and power. Many of these acts of terrorism are, honestly, the natural effects of our own governments actions.

 

Yeah, which is also whom I blame, but on an earlier and more deeply rooted matter. The west expedited the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and carved up the remains for themselves, which is what started this chain reaction. At the very least, we should have let the Soviets take as much of Afghanistan as they could manage; maybe they would have executed Bin Laden and all his allies, or 9/11 would have been something that happened to Russia instead.

[CenSin]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:52 PM, Skipper said:

I blame the majority of Islamic terrorism in the west on the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Had the allies helped rebuild it after WWI as they helped rebuild Japan after WWII, the entire region would have been far more stable today. Imagine if Japan were carved up by European powers after WWII and then invaded by the USA; I could imagine kamikaze pilots as the ones flying their planes into the Twin Towers in such a scenario.

We should also be blamed for being too soft. China does not treat its people (citizens or foreigners) like we do. They put the foot down solidly and nip whatever problems are budding before they bloom into larger problems. Of course, they are also intolerant of other nonsense that’s been a staple here in the West. It exemplifies trading security for liberty.

[Porter]

On 12/18/2017 at 1:40 PM, CenSin said:

They put the foot down solidly and nip whatever problems are budding before they bloom into larger problems.

In 2013, three Islamic terrorists in an SUV killed two innocent people in Tiananmen Square, as well as themselves, in a fiery explosion. Their village was immediately raided for co-conspirators and the authorities found and executed the masterminds behind the attack within a year. There has not been another such incident since in the Chinese heartland, nor had there been one before. Indeed, a true zero-tolerance policy. When I was in China, I could dine at the top of the tallest skyscraper in Shenzhen with absolutely no security hoops preceding the ascent. Just a few security guards keeping watch, that's it. It felt completely safe, with no paranoia. I miss those days in the good 'ol US of A.

[quadcorder]

31 minutes ago, Skipper said:

In 2013, three Islamic terrorists in an SUV killed two innocent people in Tiananmen Square, as well as themselves, in a fiery explosion. Their village was immediately raided for co-conspirators and the authorities found and executed the masterminds behind the attack within a year. There has not been another such incident since in the Chinese heartland, nor had there been one before. Indeed, a true zero-tolerance policy. When I was in China, I could dine at the top of the tallest skyscraper in Shenzhen with absolutely no security hoops preceding the ascent. Just a few security guards keeping watch, that's it. It felt completely safe, with no paranoia. I miss those days in the good 'ol US of A.

Yeah, and when their village was raided for co-conspirators no innocent people were harmed, no privacy was invaded, and the gun-owning co-conspirators didn't put up any fight. Political dissent and debate is friendly and open, and peaceful transitions of power occur frequently, giving the people trust in their politicians to do the right thing or be held accountable. If you think living in terror of a police state would be better than being frustrated with a democracy, I have news for you...

 

Also, we can be confident there are no terror attacks happening because of their freedom of presses, which means that we hear about any terror attacks within moments. Yeah, right... plenty of terror attacks could happen in China and nobody outside of the country (or even anywhere else in the country) would ever know, since the press is a propaganda arm of the Party.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, quadcorder said:

Yeah, and when their village was raided for co-conspirators no innocent people were harmed, no privacy was invaded, and the gun-owning co-conspirators didn't put up any fight. Political dissent and debate is friendly and open, and peaceful transitions of power occur frequently, giving the people trust in their politicians to do the right thing or be held accountable. If you think living in terror of a police state would be better than being frustrated with a democracy, I have news for you...

 

Also, we can be confident there are no terror attacks happening because of their freedom of presses, which means that we hear about any terror attacks within moments. Yeah, right... plenty of terror attacks could happen in China and nobody outside of the country (or even anywhere else in the country) would ever know, since the press is a propaganda arm of the Party.

What's with all of the sarcasm? I'm no fan of China, but if we really got tough on terrorism here instead of having those from the left b**** and moan about how everything is racist and protest everything, we could be more effective, but they always remain quiet when these events occur and then act as if these events are a figment of our imagination. 

[quadcorder]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What's with all of the sarcasm? I'm no fan of China, but if we really got tough on terrorism here instead of having those from the left b**** and moan about how everything is racist and protest everything, we could be more effective, but they always remain quiet when these events occur and then act as if these events are a figment of our imagination. 

Speak for yourself.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, quadcorder said:

Speak for yourself.

I am... 

[quadcorder]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What's with all of the sarcasm? I'm no fan of China, but if we really got tough on terrorism here instead of having those from the left b**** and moan about how everything is racist and protest everything, we could be more effective, but they always remain quiet when these events occur and then act as if these events are a figment of our imagination. 

 

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I am... 

Do you not know what "our" and "we" mean?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, quadcorder said:

 

Do you not know what "our" and "we" mean?

Have you heard of general terms before?  Stop acting like you're so damn dense. 

[Porter]

So much anti-China rhetoric... Try visiting sometime; it's a lot nicer than the western media would condition you to believe. And hey, if you find that you don't like the way in which their society operates after visiting, they'll only be too happy to show you the door. The whole "individualist liberal democratic free-market capitalism with regular shifts of power and an unleashed press is globally superior and the only right way for society to operate" is getting really old; if it's truly the best, then let its existence speak for itself. China does things how it does things, and while not perfect, one of those things is stopping terrorism at any cost. They do a much better job at not having terrorist attacks than does the USA (and certainly the poor EU). Via Garibaldi 8 is right, enough politically correct bullshit; let's call the problem by its name, and then we can work on nipping it in the bud.

[RR503]

What killed more people this year in the US? Islamic terror, or idiots with guns?

Let's see... 

Islamic terror deaths (all from NYC attack): 8

Gun deaths: 14,979 

You tell me which is more of a threat to peace and order. 

Your much hated 'fake news media' reports the crimes that will catch people's attention; make them money. Terrorist attacks do that. A deranged man shooting his wife does not. 

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, Skipper said:

So much anti-China rhetoric... Try visiting sometime; it's a lot nicer than the western media would condition you to believe. And hey, if you find that you don't like the way in which their society operates after visiting, they'll only be too happy to show you the door. The whole "individualist liberal democratic free-market capitalism with regular shifts of power and an unleashed press is globally superior and the only right way for society to operate" is getting really old; if it's truly the best, then let its existence speak for itself. China does things how it does things, and while not perfect, one of those things is stopping terrorism at any cost. They do a much better job at not having terrorist attacks than does the USA (and certainly the poor EU). Via Garibaldi 8 is right, enough politically correct bullshit; let's call the problem by its name, and then we can work on nipping it in the bud.

Ok. America and Europe stop bombing the f**k out of the Ottoman and Mughal territories; stop supplying weapons on the black markets; stop explicitly and implicitly endorsing Apartheid in Israel; stop all the operations in North and Central Africa and Asia Minor and the Subcontinent; stop propping up the Saudis, and let the Mideast sort itself out. Anglo-American and Euro-American interests have f**ked up that part of the world over and over and over for the better part of three centuries; leave them alone since all the "humanitarianism" trying to fix the problems caused hasn't solved a goddamned problem there.

And I'm a liberal saying that.

[quadcorder]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Have you heard of general terms before?  Stop acting like you're so damn dense. 

OK, you don't get it: You using general terms, saying "we" and "our", means you think people agree with you. Implicitly, it means you think your reader, in particular, agrees with you. I don't. I'm objecting to the way you're saying I agree with you, when in fact I think you have the intelligence of a walnut.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

41 minutes ago, quadcorder said:

OK, you don't get it: You using general terms, saying "we" and "our", means you think people agree with you. Implicitly, it means you think your reader, in particular, agrees with you. I don't. I'm objecting to the way you're saying I agree with you, when in fact I think you have the intelligence of a walnut.

I'm speaking hypothetically, so no it doesn't. In fact it's the opposite, especially with the pussy liberals in NYC like yourself that need to feel good about being "social justice warriors".  At least you didn't go complaining about how a mod needs to be here. I guess you finally grew a pair. Good for you.