LIRR Opens Ronkonkoma Branch Double Track

[checkmatechamp13]

Surprised nobody mentioned this....

http://www.mta.info/news/2018/09/21/lirr-opens-ronkonkoma-branch-double-track

[bobtehpanda]

It's ridiculous how much is being spent on the Long Island Railroad for capital projects relative to the other agencies. And I'm not a fan on how the LIRR continually doubles down on being the Ronkonkoma Railroad.

Ronkonkoma is only so busy because it's the furthest place that was electrified. Ronk is 1h9m on the express to Penn; Stony is 1h34; Sayville is 1h20. Electrify out and take the pressure off of Ronkonkoma, and LIRR patronage and usability would increase dramatically.

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Slightly off topic; it would be really nice if Stony Brook and its surrounding area could be developed as a counterweight suburban urban area to New York for Long Island, similar to Stamford. There are nearby connections to Bridgeport, and they're going to run BRT down Nicolls. It's a shame that this would never happen because it's Long Island.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Slightly off topic; it would be really nice if Stony Brook and its surrounding area could be developed as a counterweight suburban urban area to New York for Long Island, similar to Stamford. There are nearby connections to Bridgeport, and they're going to run BRT down Nicolls. It's a shame that this would never happen because it's Long Island.

Keep your eyes on the poorer areas of the Island. Yes, the rich will defend their detached housing with everything possible, but in towns like Wyandanch, Ronkonkoma, Hicksville, Farmingdale and Hempstead, there seems to be a growing wave of densification projects. Granted, with the possible exceptions of Hicksville or Ronkonkoma, none have the potential to become Stanford-esque, but it’s still a start.  

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Ronkonkoma is only so busy because it's the furthest place that was electrified. Ronk is 1h9m on the express to Penn; Stony is 1h34; Sayville is 1h20. Electrify out and take the pressure off of Ronkonkoma, and LIRR patronage and usability would increase dramatically.

I don’t mean this as a defense of the LIRR’s monomania relative to the Ronk, but electrification of the PJ will never reap the same baseline time savings as it did on the Main — waaay too many curves. The argument to be made on the Port Jeff for electrification is one of flexibility, usability (no more Huntington shuttles) and frequency (no more diesel fleet related restrictions). 

[bobtehpanda]

19 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I don’t mean this as a defense of the LIRR’s monomania relative to the Ronk, but electrification of the PJ will never reap the same baseline time savings as it did on the Main — waaay too many curves. The argument to be made on the Port Jeff for electrification is one of flexibility, usability (no more Huntington shuttles) and frequency (no more diesel fleet related restrictions). 

The better acceleration of electrics would do wonders for travel times; those diesels take forever to get up to speed. You'd probably shave ten minutes just getting rid of the clunky transfer at Huntington alone.

It's worth noting that 1h9m is a Ronkonkoma train making express stops; the local arriving at Penn at 9:17am takes 1h20. I think 1h20 is very easily doable from Sayville, and not out of the realm of possibility for Stony Brook. Start running expresses on those lines as well with similar stopping patterns to the Ronkonkoma express, and you'll probably see comparable travel times.

24 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Keep your eyes on the poorer areas of the Island. Yes, the rich will defend their detached housing with everything possible, but in towns like Wyandanch, Ronkonkoma, Hicksville, Farmingdale and Hempstead, there seems to be a growing wave of densification projects. Granted, with the possible exceptions of Hicksville or Ronkonkoma, none have the potential to become Stanford-esque, but it’s still a start.  

I just mention Stony Brook since it has all the ingredients for a proper urban area:

• a university, which houses and employs a lot of people and can be the springboard for university related businesses
• a university hospital
• easy access to City and CT

Similar areas include Mineola and the Nassau Hub.

[B35 via Church]

Cool, now I can take the LIRR to work again!

Psych....

 

Anyway.....

53 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I just mention Stony Brook since it has all the ingredients for a proper urban area:

• a university, which houses and employs a lot of people and can be the springboard for university related businesses
• a university hospital
• easy access to City and CT

Similar areas include Mineola and the Nassau Hub.

Mineola has a half-ass, sorry excuse for a downtown & even that's better than what Stony Brook has (which is practically nothing).... There's nothing that says urban (or, potentially urban) about Stony Brook... Hell, you have a better chance of pulling a "Farmingdale" over in the shithole that is PJS (Port Jefferson Station) over Stony Brook.....

If Stony Brook was more like a, say, New Brunswick, or even a Princeton, then I'd be inclined to agree....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

First day of the double track, service was suspended between Hicksville and Ronkonkoma because of a vehicle on the tracks at Bethpage.

I got a text from a friend asking me if they were gonna run buses, and I was like, 'I don't know'. Sucks to be him, riding the buses for however long that was, only for that to happen. He was mad nevertheless, LOL.

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Mineola has a half-ass, sorry excuse for a downtown & even that's better than what Stony Brook has (which is practically nothing).... There's nothing that says urban (or, potentially urban) about Stony Brook... Hell, you have a better chance of pulling a "Farmingdale" over in the shithole that is PJS (Port Jefferson Station) over Stony Brook.....

If Stony Brook was more like a, say, New Brunswick, or even a Princeton, then I'd be inclined to agree....

It'd take a lot of work but you could make it happen. You let the immediate area around Stony Brook build apartments for students, and the shops and businesses will follow the college money. There's a crapton of workers and students at the university and hospital; look at the crazy effects NYU or Columbia have in their immediate vicinity. Heck, even NYU Poly has spillover in its community, and that's the red-headed offshoot school.

The only reason it doesn't happen is because the neighbors hate the university, which makes sense, but quite frankly the university was there first. The suburban houses around it are a relatively recent development.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

It'd take a lot of work but you could make it happen. You let the immediate area around Stony Brook build apartments for students, and the shops and businesses will follow the college money. There's a crapton of workers and students at the university and hospital; look at the crazy effects NYU or Columbia have in their immediate vicinity. Heck, even NYU Poly has spillover in its community, and that's the red-headed offshoot school.

The only reason it doesn't happen is because the neighbors hate the university, which makes sense, but quite frankly the university was there first. The suburban houses around it are a relatively recent development.

What about near Hofstra/NCC? That area is 90% parking lot and has the GCS running right north of it. If we're talking greenfield here (ie not reusing an existing downtown, like in Farmingdale), that would seem the place to do it. You also conveniently have Adelphi a few stops away on the Hempstead. 

The issue there is, of course, NIMBYs against reactivating the secondary -- or, if we're really running with this -- against building out to Bethpage along the old ROW. 

[B35 via Church]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

It'd take a lot of work but you could make it happen. You let the immediate area around Stony Brook build apartments for students, and the shops and businesses will follow the college money. There's a crapton of workers and students at the university and hospital; look at the crazy effects NYU or Columbia have in their immediate vicinity. Heck, even NYU Poly has spillover in its community, and that's the red-headed offshoot school.

The only reason it doesn't happen is because the neighbors hate the university, which makes sense, but quite frankly the university was there first. The suburban houses around it are a relatively recent development.

That's what I was getting at when I brought up New Brunswick & Princeton; the respective colleges within those cities are integrated into the rest of the city... Stony Brook however, it's the opposite.... Very weird vibe it has; has a sleepy town feel to it, were it not be for the college.....

5 hours ago, RR503 said:

What about near Hofstra/NCC? That area is 90% parking lot and has the GCS running right north of it. If we're talking greenfield here (ie not reusing an existing downtown, like in Farmingdale), that would seem the place to do it. You also conveniently have Adelphi a few stops away on the Hempstead. 

The issue there is, of course, NIMBYs against reactivating the secondary -- or, if we're really running with this -- against building out to Bethpage along the old ROW. 

Revitalization is (somewhat) already happening along Stewart av at least (I'm still trying to figure out when did Avalon Garden City opened up).... Over the years, it's gotten more commercial & a little less business park-ish....

10 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

First day of the double track, service was suspended between Hicksville and Ronkonkoma because of a vehicle on the tracks at Bethpage.

I got a text from a friend asking me if they were gonna run buses, and I was like, 'I don't know'. Sucks to be him, riding the buses for however long that was, only for that to happen. He was mad nevertheless, LOL.

He should have expected status quo on both fronts (some type of disruption on the main line on weekends; never fails.... and being befuddled over whether there'll be bustitution or not)..... IDC if it was double tracked or sextuple tracked, there's always some hiccup on the main line.... I hate the main line more than I hate the NEC & that's saying a lot......

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, RR503 said:

What about near Hofstra/NCC? That area is 90% parking lot and has the GCS running right north of it. If we're talking greenfield here (ie not reusing an existing downtown, like in Farmingdale), that would seem the place to do it. You also conveniently have Adelphi a few stops away on the Hempstead. 

The issue there is, of course, NIMBYs against reactivating the secondary -- or, if we're really running with this -- against building out to Bethpage along the old ROW. 

That's what I mean by "Nassau Hub", which is basically NCC/Hofstra/Roosevelt Field/Westbury Plaza. The parking lots are a big plus since densification has no neighbors in that area to piss off. The original plan by the MCTA to modernize the railroad included trains every ten minutes running from Grand Central to Roosevelt Field.

Building out to Bethpage is complicated, just because part of it is now parks (can't be alienated easily), part of it is a utility corridor, and there's no obvious place to site stations with the requisite park and rides at LIRR stations.

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's what I was getting at when I brought up New Brunswick & Princeton; the respective colleges within those cities are integrated into the rest of the city... Stony Brook however, it's the opposite.... Very weird vibe it has; has a sleepy town feel to it, were it not be for the college.....

There's a lot of potential there; when I went there students were traveling as far as Huntington and Patchogue to go out for a night. The entire situation is very ridiculous, given that most of those people are also employed by the university they want to stop expansion of.

[jamesman8]

On 9/29/2018 at 5:19 PM, bobtehpanda said:

It's ridiculous how much is being spent on the Long Island Railroad for capital projects relative to the other agencies. And I'm not a fan on how the LIRR continually doubles down on being the Ronkonkoma Railroad.

Ronkonkoma is only so busy because it's the furthest place that was electrified. Ronk is 1h9m on the express to Penn; Stony is 1h34; Sayville is 1h20. Electrify out and take the pressure off of Ronkonkoma, and LIRR patronage and usability would increase dramatically.

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Slightly off topic; it would be really nice if Stony Brook and its surrounding area could be developed as a counterweight suburban urban area to New York for Long Island, similar to Stamford. There are nearby connections to Bridgeport, and they're going to run BRT down Nicolls. It's a shame that this would never happen because it's Long Island.

Stony Brook has nowhere NEAR the ridership necessary to support an expansion project like that. There's no "BRT" being developed down Nicolls Road. Ronkonkoma needed the bottleneck relief. You somehow in your mind say that "other agencies" are being ignored. Suffolk County Transit has no relation in funding or operation to the LIRR(which would actually run your fictional BRT, that project has long since been scrapped). Ronkonkoma is busy because there's another 50 miles of Long Island east of Ronkonkoma, which people commute to and park there. (You fail to mention there is also a decently sized yard and an Airport located at Ronkonkoma.)

[RR503]

28 minutes ago, jamesman8 said:

Stony Brook has nowhere NEAR the ridership necessary to support an expansion project like that. There's no "BRT" being developed down Nicolls Road. Ronkonkoma needed the bottleneck relief. You somehow in your mind say that "other agencies" are being ignored. Suffolk County Transit has no relation in funding or operation to the LIRR(which would actually run your fictional BRT, that project has long since been scrapped). Ronkonkoma is busy because there's another 50 miles of Long Island east of Ronkonkoma, which people commute to and park there. (You fail to mention there is also a decently sized yard and an Airport located at Ronkonkoma.)

It seems his point -- about which he is absolutely correct -- sailed clear over your head. Stony Brook doesn't have the ridership simply because the LIRR doesn't provide it with any semblance of adequate service and because folks in Suffolk are too myopic to imagine the potential of transit-oriented development.

Ronkonkoma, conversely, gets all the attention it does because it gets all the attention it does -- it's one of the few stops in Suffolk County that receives anything like decent frequency. This is basic law of induced demand.

And, FWIW, the balkanization of SCT is just another manifestation of a complete lack of civic imagination on the island. There is nothing stopping it from talking with the railroad about joint passes and coordinated routes/connections. 

[bobtehpanda]

21 minutes ago, jamesman8 said:

Stony Brook has nowhere NEAR the ridership necessary to support an expansion project like that. There's no "BRT" being developed down Nicolls Road.

From a Suffolk County Legislator:

Quote

Suffolk County follows the Federal and State guidelines in regard to noise mitigation. These guidelines require the evaluation for noise when a Type I project is proposed. A Type I project either adds additional lanes or brings the existing travel lanes closer to the properties. At this time, the County’s Department of Public Works and Economic Development and Planning Department are working together to develop a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) project on Nicolls Road which will determine if an additional travel lane is necessary. This project will also evaluate the need for noise walls or other noise mitigation measures.

The Nicolls BRT project is currently in the Preliminary Engineering and Design phase. The study incudes a robust analysis of noise and other environmental impacts and once complete we will have better idea if noise walls are warranted, and if so, in what areas. 

A public hearing was held in December 2016.

Stony Brook actually has really high ridership for a diesel territory station; 2300 riders use it every weekday, which puts it in range of stations that receive much better frequency and are located closer to New York. More importantly, Stony Brook has 2500 weekend riders, which is really impressive considering it only gets service every 90 minutes.

Quote

You somehow in your mind say that "other agencies" are being ignored.

I'm talking about the other MTA agencies. The LIRR has an insane amount of money being allocated to capital projects.

• $12B+ for East Side Access
• $2.6B for Third Track
• $387M for Ronkonkoma second track

This is way more money than NYCT has gotten for all of its recent projects. It's way more money than Metro-North is getting for all of its recent projects (has it even had any in a while?) And this is before you consider that LIRR ridership is much lower than NYCT, and basically neck and neck with Metro-North.

 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, jamesman8 said:

 (You fail to mention there is also a decently sized yard and an Airport located at Ronkonkoma.)

Of course if they built the yard there's going to be a yard there. That's how that works. If they built a yard at Port Jefferson Station it'd be the same. (Nothing of value would be lost, either.)

The notion that anybody is taking the LIRR to MacArthur in significant numbers is laughable. It's so much easier to drive and park, or take a cab. Ronkonkoma station is on the wrong side of the airport and it's a $5 cab ride, on top of whatever you paid to park at a LIRR station and then take the LIRR to Ronkonkoma. On top of that MacArthur is a tiny airport; it received 1.29 million passengers in 2017, which is 3500 people a day.

[Joel Up Front]

On 9/30/2018 at 8:11 AM, B35 via Church said:

 

Revitalization is (somewhat) already happening along Stewart av at least (I'm still trying to figure out when did Avalon Garden City opened up).... Over the years, it's gotten more commercial & a little less business park-ish....

 

It opened in stages from 2012-2014.  They tore down a lot of the old AFB houses immediately behind Stewart for these.  I remember the houses in the middle of construction before I was ready to leave NCC.

 

 

[jamesman8]

20 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Of course if they built the yard there's going to be a yard there. That's how that works. If they built a yard at Port Jefferson Station it'd be the same. (Nothing of value would be lost, either.)

The notion that anybody is taking the LIRR to MacArthur in significant numbers is laughable. It's so much easier to drive and park, or take a cab. Ronkonkoma station is on the wrong side of the airport and it's a $5 cab ride, on top of whatever you paid to park at a LIRR station and then take the LIRR to Ronkonkoma. On top of that MacArthur is a tiny airport; it received 1.29 million passengers in 2017, which is 3500 people a day.

I work at MacArthur Airport, there are over 200 people a day that our shuttle service deliver back and forth to the airport from Ronkonkoma.
Tiny? Not really. We now have 5 airlines operating out of MacArthur. Southwest, Frontier, American, Elite Airways, and Allegiant.  This would classify it as a medium sized airport. Its also on the outside of Class B airspace (I wont get into aviation stuff) and is extremely busy compared to comprable airports like Stewart International and Republic.

In terms of "ridership is low at Stony Brook because there isnt enough service". Have you looked at the area the station is in? It's all residential and the other side is all SUNY Property, which would never be developed.  On the other hand, if you look at Ronkonkoma, Everything is nicely laid out in grid fashion and leaves plenty of room for development, right next to an (now being converted) International Airport.

If I had to agree with anything you were saying, it would make more sense to electify the Ronkonkoma Line out to its current end in Greenport, as that would open up more ridership for people east of Ronkonkoma.

 

[trainfan22]

In regards to Metro North not having any capital projects... they don't really need any (other than MN to NYP which shouldn't cost that much)

 

 

Only thing I can think of is straight - ing the New Haven line, and even then, it's mainly Amtrak fans/riders pushing for that. Some MN people want it due to it taking 2 hours to go from GCT to New Haven. The NH line between New Rochelle and New Haven is the only portion of the NEC where Amtrak trains can't travel 125 MPH.

 

Straight the NH line would be really difficult to pull off due all the land that would need to be bought and NIMBY. It would be nice, but I don't think it will ever happen.

[B35 via Church]

Both Stony Brook & ISP are being embellished in this discussion....

[bobtehpanda]

14 minutes ago, jamesman8 said:

I work at MacArthur Airport, there are over 200 people a day that our shuttle service deliver back and forth to the airport from Ronkonkoma.
Tiny? Not really. We now have 5 airlines operating out of MacArthur. Southwest, Frontier, American, Elite Airways, and Allegiant.  This would classify it as a medium sized airport. Its also on the outside of Class B airspace (I wont get into aviation stuff) and is extremely busy compared to comparable airports like Stewart International and Republic.

In terms of "ridership is low at Stony Brook because there isnt enough service". Have you looked at the area the station is in? It's all residential and the other side is all SUNY Property, which would never be developed.  On the other hand, if you look at Ronkonkoma, Everything is nicely laid out in grid fashion and leaves plenty of room for development, right next to an (now being converted) International Airport.

If I had to agree with anything you were saying, it would make more sense to electify the Ronkonkoma Line out to its current end in Greenport, as that would open up more ridership for people east of Ronkonkoma.

The "SUNY Property" doesn't need to be redeveloped to be a large generator of ridership. The University is already Suffolk County's largest employer and educational institution. So many people already use the LIRR stop despite abysmal service and even worse reliability.

You could fit 200 people on seven Hampton Jitneys and still have seats. MacArthur is basically a non-factor when talking about LIRR Ronkonkoma.

Literally the only reason that Ronkonkoma is the only electrified service is because they ran out of money. The original plans had electrification to Patchogue, Port Jeff and Speonk. The diesel electrics were supposed to be a consolation price, but the current diesel fleet is a bunch of lemons.

[bobtehpanda]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Both Stony Brook & ISP are being embellished in this discussion....

Agreed, though the only reason I'm talking it up is because it is actually a straight shot north from Ronkonkoma; I personally knew a lot of people who were driving down south from the University or Lake Grove to Ronkonkoma station, even though it's not necessarily easy to get to from those places in that great Suffolk County traffic. If you had electrification to Port Jeff and to Patchogue, Ronkonkoma ridership would not be anywhere near the ridiculous amount of riders it pulls in.

[bobtehpanda]

18 hours ago, trainfan22 said:

In regards to Metro North not having any capital projects... they don't really need any (other than MN to NYP which shouldn't cost that much)

Only thing I can think of is straight - ing the New Haven line, and even then, it's mainly Amtrak fans/riders pushing for that. Some MN people want it due to it taking 2 hours to go from GCT to New Haven. The NH line between New Rochelle and New Haven is the only portion of the NEC where Amtrak trains can't travel 125 MPH.

Straight the NH line would be really difficult to pull off due all the land that would need to be bought and NIMBY. It would be nice, but I don't think it will ever happen.

We dropped rail on the Tappan Zee for lack of funding. MNR also bought the Beacon Line way back when. 

[Trainmaster5]

Stony Brook vs Ronkonkoma?  The comparison is ridiculous to anyone except a railfan. Take a look at a map before advancing that argument. Better yet look at an historical map of the Port Jefferson line to Wading River. I doubt that there is any electric equipment available today or contemplated that can shave a significant amount of time between Stony Brook and NYC. It's my opinion that the line would have to have the curved portions straightened and then double tracked and fully electrified to even be mentioned in the same breath with KO service.  The better investment,  IMO, would be to electrify the KO line eastward to Greenport if the potential ridership/NIMBY factor warrants it. I happen to feel that the Montauk Branch should be electrified and double tracked before the PJ line is even considered at all.  Just my opinion though.  Carry on. 

[jamesman8]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The "SUNY Property" doesn't need to be redeveloped to be a large generator of ridership. The University is already Suffolk County's largest employer and educational institution. So many people already use the LIRR stop despite abysmal service and even worse reliability.

You could fit 200 people on seven Hampton Jitneys and still have seats. MacArthur is basically a non-factor when talking about LIRR Ronkonkoma.

Literally the only reason that Ronkonkoma is the only electrified service is because they ran out of money. The original plans had electrification to Patchogue, Port Jeff and Speonk. The diesel electrics were supposed to be a consolation price, but the current diesel fleet is a bunch of lemons.

Have you also bothered to look at the income of residents in the area? Stony Brook and the entire PJ line is essentially upper middle class to upper class families and residents. Ronkonkoma is located in an area with lower class to middle class families which include a brick ton of people who commute to the city daily. The people that go from Ronkonkoma are usually within a 15-20mi radius or from eastern Long Island, not Stony Brook. If ridership was really bottlenecked on the PJ line you would see overflow from people living in Stony Brook.

[RR503]

On 10/2/2018 at 3:19 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Stony Brook vs Ronkonkoma?  The comparison is ridiculous to anyone except a railfan. Take a look at a map before advancing that argument. Better yet look at an historical map of the Port Jefferson line to Wading River. I doubt that there is any electric equipment available today or contemplated that can shave a significant amount of time between Stony Brook and NYC. It's my opinion that the line would have to have the curved portions straightened and then double tracked and fully electrified to even be mentioned in the same breath with KO service.  The better investment,  IMO, would be to electrify the KO line eastward to Greenport if the potential ridership/NIMBY factor warrants it. I happen to feel that the Montauk Branch should be electrified and double tracked before the PJ line is even considered at all.  Just my opinion though.  Carry on. 

If I may play the contrarian for a second, I don't think the LIRR should make more than incremental investments beyond the Ronkonkoma/PJ/Patchogue line. Since the Financial Crisis, the nature of (sub)urban development has changed paradigmatically -- the emphasis is not on making massive houses a million miles from jobs anymore, but on creating relatively dense communities that act as satellites to a larger core. This trend has been excellently documented elsewhere, but Long Island, ever the bastion of backwardness, has attempted to resist it. The result? Ridiculously high housing costs, inefficient land use, poor quality of life, and a rapidly aging population.

Given the centrality of transit to development, it's thus imperative that the LIRR make capacity/connectivity enhancements in these more inner suburbs -- creating more reverse/intra-island commute opportunities, fostering partnerships with NICE/SCT for cross-island travel, and doing more to encourage TOD near stations. That's where the future is. 

[Trainmaster5]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

If I may play the contrarian for a second, I don't think the LIRR should make more than incremental investments beyond the Ronkonkoma/PJ/Patchogue line. Since the Financial Crisis, the nature of (sub)urban development has changed paradigmatically -- the emphasis is not on making massive houses a million miles from jobs anymore, but on creating relatively dense communities that act as satellites to a larger core. This trend has been excellently documented elsewhere, but Long Island, ever the bastion of backwardness, has attempted to resist it. The result? Ridiculously high housing costs, inefficient land use, poor quality of life, and a rapidly aging population.

Given the centrality of transit to development, it's thus imperative that the LIRR make capacity/connectivity enhancements in these more inner suburbs -- creating more reverse/intra-island commute opportunities, fostering partnerships with NICE/SCT for cross-island travel, and doing more to encourage TOD near stations. That's where the future is. 

The problem with that way of thinking is more a political one than anything else. I'm one of those folks, also a contrarian, that sees Long Island as a whole, not four counties as most do. Everything has been geared " to the City" in my lifetime and probably the generation before mine. The was created for the benefit of the island, especially the two eastern counties. The Long Island Rail Road Company is the stepchild of the major political parties of Suffolk and Nassau (Queens East). The NIMBYism and parochial way of thinking is why Bus was created and why NICE, and SCT still exist in the first place. The proposals I've seen mentioned since I've taken up residence in Suffolk are ones that affect the LIRR. There's a reason why the FARM-KO double track was done in the first place. Supposedly completed ahead of time, too. The major controversies over the Heartland development at Pilgrim State/Brentwood and Edgewood, the construction of the new Wyandanch Station and gentrification of the surrounding area and the LIRR proposal to electrify the Central Branch. Obviously the 3rd track on the Mainline and ESA loom over everything. Meanwhile Mineola, Garden City, Hempstead, Hofstra vicinity, and the RT 110 corridor seem to be neglected IMO. There doesn't seem to be any overall master plan but pieces and ideas scattered across the landscape. The arguments I hear about development are all over the place. " If I wanted to be crowded up next to other people I wouldn't have moved out here". That one's generational. " In a few years everyone will be working from home ". That's generational, too. " Too much noise and crime in the city". Try telling that to someone like me who grew up with the Chaplains and Bishops in 1950s Brooklyn. Heroin and weed in the '60's ? Try MS-13, meth, K2, and heroin and other opioids in Nassau and Suffolk today. I just can't see increased density located closer to the city as something any Island politician could convince his/her constituents to embrace. I'm old enough to have lived through the "white flight" from Brooklyn to points further east on the Island. I remember my fourth grade teacher at PS 150K convincing my principal to let me make an announcement in the auditorium before school let out for the summer. It was to the braggarts who were " moving to Long Island " that summer. Those of us who were born in Brooklyn couldn't move to Long Island. When the commotion erupted and the principal silenced everyone I was told to explain my statement. If one was born in Brooklyn you were already a Long Island resident. You could move to another part of Long Island, perhaps, but not to Long Island. Heck, the "Battle of Long Island " was fought in the Revolutionary War between Greenwood cemetery and Prospect Park. To go back to your point the power in the resides with the Prince and the county execs and they will determine what the region will look like community-wise and transport-wise. Sorry for the long post. Carry on.