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Via Garibaldi 8

MTA to Eliminate 400 Bus Stops in the Bronx as Part of Bus Network Redesign

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MTA to Eliminate 400 Bus Stops in the Bronx as Part of Bus Network Redesign

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Video: https://gcdn.2mdn.net/videoplayback/id/45d664074f0bf270/itag/347/source/doubleclick_dmm/ctier/L/acao/yes/ip/0.0.0.0/ipbits/0/expire/3713780404/sparams/id,itag,source,ctier,acao,ip,ipbits,expire/signature/6715CE20E898C1B700365A92982A1AF91F47FD8A.6D29BD9D7249422D55C3E3179745E972A3A0F684/key/ck2/file/file.mp4

WHAT TO KNOW

-The MTA announced Tuesday that it is getting rid of 400 bus stops in the Bronx

-The agency says there are too many stops that are too close together -- a combination that is causing traffic tie-ups

-The eliminations are part of the MTA's Bronx Bus Network Redesign, which also includes more frequent service and added lines

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced Tuesday that it is getting rid of 400 bus stops in the Bronx, while implementing more frequent bus service and additional lines -- all part of the bus network redesign for the borough.

The agency says there are too many stops that are too close together -- a combination that is leading to bunching and traffic.

According to the MTA, both customers and transit advocates requested more balanced spacing between stops to speed up travel times. The average time it takes for a bus to re-enter traffic from a stop ranges from 20 seconds to more than 1 minute during peak hours.

Bronx stops are currently an average of 882 feet apart – just over three city blocks, while stops in transit systems around the world range from 1,000 to 1,680 feet, according to the MTA. Because of this, under the proposed redesign, stops would be spaced an average of 1,092 feet, resulting in a net reduction of 400 local/limited stops. 

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/MTA-Eliminate-400-Bus-Stops-Bronx-Service-Network-Redesign-New-York-City-Borough-Transportation-Commute-563630351.html?akmobile=o&fbclid=IwAR3a4PWPUI08qwvT1vwVdxwqCesji5dRQPROugFtl4H_xUdB5vWHYSLbeqE

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Never mind bus stops - they are eliminating southbound BxM1 and 2 service after 4 pm weekdays. So now, strictly a commuter service. Want to go out at night, Riverdale? Screw you!

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The notion behind there being too many stops being such this problem, is a lame, albeit convenient scapegoat; I don't exactly recall any uptick in the amount of stops that were added to all these bus routes, that ended up exacerbating their overall runtimes to the extent that it has (and currently still is).....

The fact of the matter is that there has been an increase of peds. walking around & about, crossing the street (quite absent-mindedly, I might add) & too many OTHER vehicles on the road.....

Biggest elephant in the room; Babar & Dumbo aint got shit on it.

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The notion behind there being too many stops being such this problem, is a lame, albeit convenient scapegoat; I don't exactly recall any uptick in the amount of stops that were added to all these bus routes, that ended up exacerbating their overall runtimes to the extent that it has (and currently still is).....

The fact of the matter is that there has been an increase of peds. walking around & about, crossing the street (quite absent-mindedly, I might add) & too many OTHER vehicles on the road.....

Biggest elephant in the room; Babar & Dumbo aint got shit on it.

I think you need to up your game. Stops (and the pulling in and out needed to access them) are one of the seven deadly delays. It might not seem like it, but that extra time adds up.

And as someone whose experienced proper stop spacing (400m or around 1400ft) along with protected bus lanes and proper TSP, I can say that we DEFINITELY have too many stops. The Bx31 along 233rd street is, in my opinion, the gold standard for stop spacing in this city.

And if they really wanted to make an impact, they'd redo every single stop under a minimum stop spacing of at least 1,000 feet.

There is no reason our stops should be spaced any less than that.

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3 minutes ago, LTA1992 said:

I think you need to up your game. Stops (and the pulling in and out needed to access them) are one of the seven deadly delays. It might not seem like it, but that extra time adds up.

And as someone whose experienced proper stop spacing (400m or around 1400ft) along with protected bus lanes and proper TSP, I can say that we DEFINITELY have too many stops. The Bx31 along 233rd street is, in my opinion, the gold standard for stop spacing in this city.

And if they really wanted to make an impact, they'd redo every single stop under a minimum stop spacing of at least 1,000 feet.

There is no reason our stops should be spaced any less than that.

I can already hear the excuses.

"But...but this is New York. Only we know what's right for us. Only we know the quirks and small things.  We're not the rest of the world. No one else has our problems......"

Yeah, because we are a textbook example for the rest of the world on what to avoid.

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7 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

I can already hear the excuses.

"But...but this is New York. Only we know what's right for us. Only we know the quirks and small things.  We're not the rest of the world. No one else has our problems......"

Yeah, because we are a textbook example for the rest of the world on what to avoid.

If we actually listened to that nonsense, we wouldn't even have a subway. New York needs to chill and actually CHANGE.

You can't expect better by asking for more of the same. No matter the pretense or history.

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There are a few recommendations that we made that the (MTA) appeared to like. One of them is the BxM8 routing. We requested that the City Island trips be made into Super Express trips, and apparently those trips will run straight along the Bruckner, and all other BxM8 trips will make their current stops. That is something that is a good thing. Unfortunately the service spans are being hacked away though.

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2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

I think you need to up your game....

My so-called "game" isn't the problem, nor is anybody playing here.....

2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

....Stops (and the pulling in and out needed to access them) are one of the seven deadly delays. It might not seem like it, but that extra time adds up.

And as someone whose experienced proper stop spacing (400m or around 1400ft) along with protected bus lanes and proper TSP, I can say that we DEFINITELY have too many stops. The Bx31 along 233rd street is, in my opinion, the gold standard for stop spacing in this city.

And if they really wanted to make an impact, they'd redo every single stop under a minimum stop spacing of at least 1,000 feet.

There is no reason our stops should be spaced any less than that.

Stops can be eliminated within reason; this isn't about preserving every stop in existence.... However, going on some grand mission in honing in on bus stops county-wide because you can't do much of anything about the increasing traffic, sets a bad precedent.... I think they've gone overboard with the overfocus as far as that aspect of the redesign goes.... MTA's got another thing coming if they believe everyone (or, of those that'll have to, no matter how short that distance is) is going to be so open to trekking further than they have to, to catch a bus.... It'll be one more reason you'll have some people give up on buses altogether, as if we need anymore of that..... I quite frankly don't want to read or otherwise have brought to my attention that there's 400 damn stops being eliminated & it having being portrayed as some grand accomplishment for the better.... This agency has a tendency to tout things that need not be.

The notion that too many bus stops are too close together & it leading to bunching & traffic is a crock.... Funny how the amount of bunching has increased over the years with the same/constant number of stops.... Funny how the amount of traffic has also increased over the years with the same/constant number of stops, as well..... There has always been this onus to want to pin worsening traffic conditions on public buses in some way, shape, or form....

I don't have a problem with protected bus lanes & proper TSP.... None of that is being proposed here in this particular plan however.

Edited by B35 via Church
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400 out of how many? There's a crapton of bus stops. And where? Is it 400 all along the Grand Concourse or all over the borough?

400 without any context means jack s***.

It's worth noting that even according to the redesign, average stop spacing will still be on the shorter end of most transit systems.

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27 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

400 out of how many? There's a crapton of bus stops. And where? Is it 400 all along the Grand Concourse or all over the borough?

400 without any context means jack s***.

If you add up all the stops on both sides of GC, are there even 400 total stops? (serious question)

Anyway, they're talking Borough-wide.

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There are a few recommendations that we made that the (MTA) appeared to like. One of them is the BxM8 routing. We requested that the City Island trips be made into Super Express trips, and apparently those trips will run straight along the Bruckner, and all other BxM8 trips will make their current stops. That is something that is a good thing. Unfortunately the service spans are being hacked away though.

Earlier on while skimming through the thing, I initially misread the proposal... I originally thought that they were going to discontinue the Crosby, etc. routing for all BxM8 trips during peak hours....

Edited by B35 via Church

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31 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

If you add up all the stops on both sides of GC, are there even 400 total stops? (serious question)

Anyway, they're talking Borough-wide.

Oh I know, but the devil is in the details of how this is being counted.

  • How many stops are in the Bronx, total, today? I would guess it's several thousand, if not tens of thousands.
  • What is a "stop"? Is it a physical pole or is it a pickup/dropoff on a route? If it's the latter, is the elimination of a stop that, say, both the Bx17 and Bx22 serve one or two "stops"? Is the same block on both directions one or two "stops"?

400 could be the end of the world or not mean anything at all.

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3 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Oh I know, but the devil is in the details of how this is being counted.

  • How many stops are in the Bronx, total, today? I would guess it's several thousand, if not tens of thousands.
  • What is a "stop"? Is it a physical pole or is it a pickup/dropoff on a route? If it's the latter, is the elimination of a stop that, say, both the Bx17 and Bx22 serve one or two "stops"? Is the same block on both directions one or two "stops"?

400 could be the end of the world or not mean anything at all.

Oh, I see what you're saying now...

They're talking about individual poles.... The same block in both directions accounts for 2 stops..... I don't think any mutual stops are slated to be removed....

In the PDF, they actually listed every single stop of/for all the routes (express & local) in both directions (as in, Bx17 NB, BX17 SB... Bx22 NB, BX22 SB, etc).... All the stops highlighted in red they have as designated/slated for elimination.... Any of the stops highlighted blue are added stops..... That whole part of the PDF runs from pg. 176 to pg. 309 (whole PDF spans 323 pages deep).... No way in f*** am I going to count everything highlighted in red, but for all intents & purposes, the answer to your initial inquiry leans heavily towards the "not mean anything at all" quip.....

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While I’ll agree that there are stops that are just way too close together or unnecessary , I don’t think that should be used as a scapegoat. The reality is you eliminate stops but that doesn’t magically make bus speeds noticeably faster. The main culprit is traffic and it’s only going to get worst in the upcoming years. With all this building going on and gentrification the city is definitely expecting more population growth. With that and the lack of concern on the MTA’s part to make actual improvements more and more people will continue to use other forms of transportation and that includes the use of cars. They obviously don’t see an issue with the way that they run service so of course their “best” solution is to eliminate a bunch of stops and piss off more people. 
 

This redesign has the potential to be effective if the focus was making routes more effective and efficient for riders instead of just trying to save money.
 

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Eliminating stops *does* make buses faster -- normally about 12 seconds/stop. Totally agree it has to be a part of a larger plan to deal w/ traffic, bus priority, dispatching, etc, but making sure your spacing is in line w/ international standards is a very worthy goal (at which this plan totally fails).

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12 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

While I’ll agree that there are stops that are just way too close together or unnecessary , I don’t think that should be used as a scapegoat. The reality is you eliminate stops but that doesn’t magically make bus speeds noticeably faster. The main culprit is traffic and it’s only going to get worst in the upcoming years. With all this building going on and gentrification the city is definitely expecting more population growth. With that and the lack of concern on the MTA’s part to make actual improvements more and more people will continue to use other forms of transportation and that includes the use of cars. They obviously don’t see an issue with the way that they run service so of course their “best” solution is to eliminate a bunch of stops and piss off more people. 
 

This redesign has the potential to be effective if the focus was making routes more effective and efficient for riders instead of just trying to save money.

Yeah, and then the knee-jerk, ill-advised reaction will be to get rid of even more stops.... and piss off even more people...

Q29 Glendale Myrtle Av SBS via 80 st...

No, no... How about Q103 Astoria 2 av SBS via Vernon....

smfh.....

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On 10/22/2019 at 3:54 PM, LTA1992 said:

And if they really wanted to make an impact, they'd redo every single stop under a minimum stop spacing of at least 1,000 feet.

There is no reason our stops should be spaced any less than that.

Stops spaced at least every 1,000 feet would be ridiculous. Don't forget you first have  to walk to the bus route and then up to another 500 feet to the stop. That means many would have to walk a half mile or more at either end. What if you are only on the bus for a half mile or a mile? That would mean at least half your trip you would have to walk. So why pay $2.75 for only half your trip? It doesn't make sense. Not to mention the longer you walk, the greater the chance of missing the bus and lengthening your trip. 

And don't forget about those who have difficulty walking.

Edited by BrooklynBus
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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Stops spaced at least every 1,000 feet would be ridiculous. Don't forget you first have  to walk to the bus route and then up to another 500 feet to the stop. That means many would have to walk a half mile or more at either end. What if you are only on the bus for a half mile or a mile? That would mean at least half your trip you would have to walk. So why pay $2.75 for only half your trip? It doesn't make sense. Not to mention the longer you walk, the greater the chance of missing the bus and lengthening your trip. 

And don't forget about those who have difficulty walking.

I was just speaking a local reporter about these changes via phone, and noted how many seniors and disabled people depend on these buses. I see them struggling regularly.

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If we want a world class bus system, we have to allow the MTA to build a world class bus system. Outside of the US, bus stop spacing of 1,000-1,500 feet is the norm, and yes, they do have disabled people there too. There's a lot of academic literature out there on optimal bus stop spacing, as well as a good volume of case studies. Pretty much all of them point in the same direction: spacing in that range is best for everyone. 

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46 minutes ago, RR503 said:

If we want a world class bus system, we have to allow the MTA to build a world class bus system. Outside of the US, bus stop spacing of 1,000-1,500 feet is the norm, and yes, they do have disabled people there too. There's a lot of academic literature out there on optimal bus stop spacing, as well as a good volume of case studies. Pretty much all of them point in the same direction: spacing in that range is best for everyone. 

Oh please. We both know that the other world class bus systems have good investment in them and they're far more advanced than our system is.

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3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. We both know that the other world class bus systems have good investment in them and they're far more advanced than our system is.

Yes, they do. But that’s a somewhat different question than that of their bus stop spacings...

(Might I caution, too, the notion that funding levels are *the* predictor of system function. NYC throws a massive amount of money at transit. And yet....)

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8 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Yes, they do. But that’s a somewhat different question than that of their bus stop spacings...

(Might I caution, too, the notion that funding levels are *the* predictor of system function. NYC throws a massive amount of money at transit. And yet....)

Yeah... Our system is completely dysfunctional.  I just had a conference call a little while ago about our wonderful bus system. You've seen me speak before, so you know how I go form 0 - 60... lol

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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. We both know that the other world class bus systems have good investment in them and they're far more advanced than our system is.

If bus stops are that far apart, then we would need the routes to be much closer together. Walking a half mile or three quarters of a mile at either or both ends of the trip is ridiculous. That's why people use Uber or car service. They want more direct service. Also, just because there is a bus stop, doesn't mean the bus stops. Many stops are skipped anyway so no time us saved by their removal. Riders are just inconvenienced and their trip takes longer if they miss a bus because of the extra walk. 

 

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37 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

If bus stops are that far apart, then we would need the routes to be much closer together. Walking a half mile or three quarters of a mile at either or both ends of the trip is ridiculous. That's why people use Uber or car service. They want more direct service. Also, just because there is a bus stop, doesn't mean the bus stops. Many stops are skipped anyway so no time us saved by their removal. Riders are just inconvenienced and their trip takes longer if they miss a bus because of the extra walk. 

 

I spoke with a contact today. People are raising hell about these proposals and we are all contacting our elected officials. This is far from over....

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I spoke with a contact today. People are raising hell about these proposals and we are all contacting our elected officials. This is far from over....

Isn't it amazing that in 1978, when I made my southwest Brooklyn proposals to ten routes, all the communities loved it. There was only one written complaint received. In fact the only other complaints were from the parts of the proposal the MTA changed which had to be undone. That proves when a proposal is a good one, people like it. So what does that tell you about MTA proposals which always receive protest? 

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5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Not to mention the longer you walk, the greater the chance of missing the bus and lengthening your trip. 

As I've stated numerous times, it is not accurate that the further you walk, the greater your chances are of missing the bus. On average, the additional travel time will be equal to the time of the additional walking. Some of the time you are walking when the bus is approaching, but most of the time (depending on the frequency of the bus), you are walking during time you would've spent waiting anyway. 

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Stops spaced at least every 1,000 feet would be ridiculous. Don't forget you first have  to walk to the bus route and then up to another 500 feet to the stop. That means many would have to walk a half mile or more at either end. What if you are only on the bus for a half mile or a mile? That would mean at least half your trip you would have to walk. So why pay $2.75 for only half your trip? It doesn't make sense. Not to mention the longer you walk, the greater the chance of missing the bus and lengthening your trip. 

And don't forget about those who have difficulty walking.

Then in those cases it may very well make sense to just walk the whole way. But yet at the same time, you have to consider the longer-distance riders who benefit from the faster speeds. Also keep in mind that bus stops should be placed near major activity centers and transfer points, so the majority of people will not be walking the 500 feet. 

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

If bus stops are that far apart, then we would need the routes to be much closer together. Walking a half mile or three quarters of a mile at either or both ends of the trip is ridiculous. That's why people use Uber or car service. They want more direct service. Also, just because there is a bus stop, doesn't mean the bus stops. Many stops are skipped anyway so no time us saved by their removal. Riders are just inconvenienced and their trip takes longer if they miss a bus because of the extra walk. 

Slow trip times are also why people use Uber or car service (or dollar vans). Many stops are skipped....ehhh....depends on the route and the neighborhood it is passing through at a given time. I can definitely name neighborhoods where you will be stopping at every single stop for most of the day for pickup and/or-drop-off (and keep in mind that overnight, Request-A-Stop is in place).

Also keep in mind that these small stops where you may or may not stop there contribute to unreliability and bunching. At the big stops, you know you're going to have to stop. But all of the little stops, you stop for one person, you miss the light, you stop for another one, you miss another light, and before you know it the following bus is right behind you.

3 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Isn't it amazing that in 1978, when I made my southwest Brooklyn proposals to ten routes, all the communities loved it. There was only one written complaint received. In fact the only other complaints were from the parts of the proposal the MTA changed which had to be undone. That proves when a proposal is a good one, people like it. So what does that tell you about MTA proposals which always receive protest? 

Keep in mind that the MTA planned on making cuts to the express service anyway (they mentioned in earlier committee meeting documents). So of course people are going to protest outright service reductions.

That being said, not every single aspect of the plan received protest. The Central Bronx restructuring seemed to be pretty popular and the few comments that I heard about it were positive.

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