Expanding the Crosstown Line aka The (G)

[CenSin]

43 minutes ago, Lex said:

Reading is fundamental.

You didn't read mine either, eh? LIC is growing, and that'll spread. Manhattan doesn't have infinite growth.

[Lex]

3 hours ago, CenSin said:

You didn't read mine either, eh? LIC is growing, and that'll spread. Manhattan doesn't have infinite growth.

Because Franklin Avenue is so full of potential and relevant to LIC...

[CenSin]

On 12/3/2019 at 8:55 PM, Lex said:

Because Franklin Avenue is so full of potential and relevant to LIC...

I'm not sure you understand the concept of “playing the long game.”

[Lex]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

I'm not sure you understand the concept of “playing the long game.”

North-south buses (which already connect with the , to say nothing of the ones already serving LIC) and Manhattan connections (damn near everything on Broadway, along with the 6th Avenue locals, Flushing, and the ) already exist. Aside from Park Place, the primary purpose of that shuttle (thanks to not serving Downtown Brooklyn) is to provide a shortcut between points south of Franklin Avenue and points east. The absolute most I'd be willing to do with it is send it to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, particularly since there's no north-south rail connector between points south of Franklin Avenue and points north and west of the Crosstown bend.

[RR503]

I think the move when it comes to the shuttle is attaching it to the  itself. Branch Crosstown south of Bedford Nostrand, tunnel down to somewhere between Fulton and Eastern Parkway, and then just reclaim the ROW. Voila, you’ve got yourself a good approximation of the BMT’s crosstown line and in doing so have provided a decent north-south substitute to buses like the 44. 

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, Lex said:

North-south buses (which already connect with the , to say nothing of the ones already serving LIC) and Manhattan connections (damn near everything on Broadway, along with the 6th Avenue locals, Flushing, and the ) already exist. Aside from Park Place, the primary purpose of that shuttle (thanks to not serving Downtown Brooklyn) is to provide a shortcut between points south of Franklin Avenue and points east. The absolute most I'd be willing to do with it is send it to Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, particularly since there's no north-south rail connector between points south of Franklin Avenue and points north and west of the Crosstown bend.

 - Prospect Park to 96th St UES via Bed-Stuy, Williamsburg and Christie Street?

Sounds like a plan.

[Mysterious2train]

Agree 100% with the idea of connecting the  to the Franklin Avenue  - but of course it should be its own route going all the way up to Court Square, not just a slightly longer shuttle.

Going off further into never-going-to-happen land, A 21 St subway line would connect to the  at Queensbridge, serves Astoria, could potentially go all the way to LaGuardia, and would still connect to the  at Court Square. Would require closing 21 St but it doesn't exactly have high ridership to begin with. 

My deepest, most never-going-to-happen fantasy for the  would probably be to close down 21 St and build a new platform at Vernon Blvd-Jackson Av connecting to the , since the  literally passes right below the station (Thanks John Hylan?) Would definitely be tight and disruptive to build, but like anything it would be possible with enough money and political will. This could save 7-10 mins on some Brooklyn-bound trips as by no longer having to go the additional 2 stops to Court Square you'd be able to catch the previous  trip to Brooklyn sometimes. You'd see smaller but still noticeable time savings going Brooklyn-to-Manhattan since the  runs more frequently.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Mysterious2train

[Lex]

7 hours ago, RR503 said:

I think the move when it comes to the shuttle is attaching it to the  itself. Branch Crosstown south of Bedford Nostrand, tunnel down to somewhere between Fulton and Eastern Parkway, and then just reclaim the ROW. Voila, you’ve got yourself a good approximation of the BMT’s crosstown line and in doing so have provided a decent north-south substitute to buses like the 44. 

It may be an okay (at best) alternative to the B48. It'll do precious little for the B44.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

It may be an okay (at best) alternative to the B48. It'll do precious little for the B44.

There's a good bit of B44 ridership that goes from [points within subway service area along Nostrand] to [points north of EPW]. I'd expect a good bit of that traffic would opt for IRT to this new  branch rather than bus, especially if  transfer is added. 

[Lex]

3 hours ago, RR503 said:

There's a good bit of B44 ridership that goes from [points within subway service area along Nostrand] to [points north of EPW]. I'd expect a good bit of that traffic would opt for IRT to this new  branch rather than bus, especially if  transfer is added. 

Oh, sure, they'll totally get off the bus to transfer to a train/gun straight for the train, only to have to transfer to another train instead of just using the bus to reach Lafayette Avenue or wherever the hell they're going.😏

Edited December 6, 2019 by Lex

[RR503]

1 minute ago, Lex said:

Oh, sure, they'll totally get off the bus to transfer to a train/gun straight for the train, only to have to transfer to another train instead of just using the bus to reach Lafayette Avenue or wherever the hell they're going.😏

1) Crosstown buses do indeed exist -- and I would hope that any plan which added a  branch to the Brighton line would invest further in their frequencies to help fully reap the benefits of the line. 

2) Let's say I live at Nostrand and Foster. Today, to get to Nostrand and Lafayette, I walk over to Rogers and get on the SBS -- that's a half hour trip. With this  branch, you take the  to Franklin (15ish minutes), transfer to the  branch, and take that to Bedford-Nostrand (5ish minutes). That's twenty minutes, and let's throw in 2 minutes for the transfer time. 22 vs 30, take your pick. 

[Lex]

5 minutes ago, RR503 said:

2) Let's say I live at Nostrand and Foster. Today, to get to Nostrand and Lafayette, I walk over to Rogers and get on the SBS -- that's a half hour trip. With this  branch, you take the  to Franklin (15ish minutes), transfer to the  branch, and take that to Bedford-Nostrand (5ish minutes). That's twenty minutes, and let's throw in 2 minutes for the transfer time. 22 vs 30, take your pick. 

I'd still pick the bus. For one, the transfer over there would be more optimal (upon reaching the transfer point, everything's in one place, unlike the pie-in-the-sky 15 tph that, knowing you, you're assuming for Franklin Avenue). For two, not many are really willing to go through a whole bunch of up-and-down just to reach their destination when they have something more straightforward. For three, Nostrand Avenue trains will already be handling Manhattan-bound crowds, whereas the buses are far less likely to (between Flatbush Avenue and President Street).

To go further, thanks to how the population is distributed (and how transit is distributed, partially due to how the population is distributed), accessing LIC from points south/west of Fulton Street and Throop Avenue not already served by the  is of least importance.

[RR503]

17 minutes ago, Lex said:

I'd still pick the bus. For one, the transfer over there would be more optimal (upon reaching the transfer point, everything's in one place, unlike the pie-in-the-sky 15 tph that, knowing you, you're assuming for Franklin Avenue). For two, not many are really willing to go through a whole bunch of up-and-down just to reach their destination when they have something more straightforward. For three, Nostrand Avenue trains will already be handling Manhattan-bound crowds, whereas the buses are far less likely to (between Flatbush Avenue and President Street).

Not to let facts get in the way of a good story or anything, but the median wait for the B44SBS is, outside of weekends, almost always greater than that of the subways under Nostrand. Taking the AM rush hour, you're waiting an average of 2.5 mins for the SBS vs 1.6 for the  and 3 for the  (assuming 10tph service level). So you're down 2.1 mins in wait time, but you make that up in (a conservative, given the variability inherent in bus service) +8 in travel time, minus a 2 min transfer time. 

It's also worth noting that Foster Avenue to Lafayette Avenue is far from the only market that would be unlocked by this change, which brings me to my next point.

26 minutes ago, Lex said:

To go further, thanks to how the population is distributed (and how transit is distributed, partially due to how the population is distributed), accessing LIC from points south/west of Fulton Street and Throop Avenue not already served by the  is of least importance.

And why, pray, is that? Is LIC not one of the fastest growing outer borough CBDs? Is economic access not important or something?

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

accessing LIC from points south/west of Fulton Street and Throop Avenue not already served by the  is of least importance.

People said the same thing about the North London Line to Stratford, then came the Overground and a building boom and look at it now...

[Lex]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

Not to let facts get in the way of a good story or anything, but the median wait for the B44SBS is, outside of weekends, almost always greater than that of the subways under Nostrand. Taking the AM rush hour, you're waiting an average of 2.5 mins for the SBS vs 1.6 for the  and 3 for the  (assuming 10tph service level). So you're down 2.1 mins in wait time, but you make that up in (a conservative, given the variability inherent in bus service) +8 in travel time, minus a 2 min transfer time.

Not to let facts get in the way of a good story or anything, but there are a few things to keep in mind:

1. Only a portion of the B44's catchment area (and ridership) is reasonably within the subway's catchment area.
2. Accessing public transportation, reaching your final destination, and making transfers all require walking. Walkways have varying widths, and some people move faster than others. To add to this, people typically opt for convenience, meaning they are far more likely to push for something that involves less walking.
3. If I'm not mistaken, you discussed elsewhere how differing schedules can leave a negative impact. While it may have been in reference to operations, it nonetheless also applies to passenger connections, and that includes diving between a higher combined frequency and a lower singular frequency that is approximately half of the previous one (and with intervals that are greater than 5 minutes, to boot).
4. Any sort of rail connection between Franklin Avenue and Crosstown will basically need a guarantee (not a mere projection, but an actual shift) that it would be used in significant enough numbers to justify restoring the second track, having full-length platforms, and establishing the rail connection.

5 hours ago, RR503 said:

It's also worth noting that Foster Avenue to Lafayette Avenue is far from the only market that would be unlocked by this change, which brings me to my next point.

That implies that the trip would be time-prohibitive, which it would be if all northbound buses used New York Avenue (as the pre-SBS B44 ran). That, however, is not the case, especially since Brooklyn's streets are generally nowhere near as shit as Manhattan's.

5 hours ago, RR503 said:

And why, pray, is that? Is LIC not one of the fastest growing outer borough CBDs? Is economic access not important or something?

The rail systems of Brooklyn and Manhattan are rather accommodating, whereas the only areas in NYC Staten Island really cares about are Manhattan's CBD, Bay Ridge, and maybe Downtown Brooklyn (extremely unlikely to change anytime soon, so don't bother). By stark contrast, the Bronx network is rather limiting (all trains go to Manhattan, and all but the  are rather north-south within the borough), and the Queens rail network is pure shite. If we're to focus on increasing rail service to LIC, we need to focus on these groups -- especially the eastern portions of the Bronx and Queens, which have especially poor cohesion with the rest of the larger network. Yes, there are improvements that can be made in Brooklyn, but that borough already has the easiest time reaching LIC.

[RR503]

1. This is not just about the B44. This  branch would have every local stop on the Brighton line north of Brighton Beach as catchment, a catchment expanded by all the buses that connect to said stops. 

2. "People have differing experiences with walking"...okay, and? We have long transfers, short transfers, complex transfers, and crowded transfers all across this system -- and for each type, there are countless examples that get overwhelming daily use. We of course should be sensitive to the needs of the mobility impaired, but Franklin Ave is hardly the most difficult transfer to rationalize. And people don't generally opt for convenience -- that's the assumption that made the IRT the dwell time shitshow it is today. New Yorkers will transfer to an express at the drop of a hat, even if it means they give up their seat for standing in a 2.5 sq feet/person subway car. 

3. I discussed how uneven frequencies can impact operations, yes. But that has very little relevance here. These trains are stopping on different tracks and serving different markets, and the 10tph service level on the  is hardly some hardship that will discourage transfers! Some examples of heavily used transfers from lines with throughputs >=19tph (combined ) to lines with service levels =< 10tph:

- 125  to  or  

- Bway Jct  to  or  

- [Fulton express stop]  to  

- Jay St  to  

- Hoyt-Schermerhorn to  

Would I like to run this imagined  branch at 15tph all day long? Sure, but that likely will not happen. 

4. I agree, we should build only in areas that are likely to have real impacts. I think this is one such area. 

11 hours ago, Lex said:

That implies that the trip would be time-prohibitive, which it would be if all northbound buses used New York Avenue (as the pre-SBS B44 ran). That, however, is not the case, especially since Brooklyn's streets are generally nowhere near as shit as Manhattan's.

Can't say I follow what you mean here, though I somewhat contest that Brooklyn's streets are good -- ever been to Flatbush Junction during a rush hour? 

11 hours ago, Lex said:

The rail systems of Brooklyn and Manhattan are rather accommodating, whereas the only areas in NYC Staten Island really cares about are Manhattan's CBD, Bay Ridge, and maybe Downtown Brooklyn (extremely unlikely to change anytime soon, so don't bother). By stark contrast, the Bronx network is rather limiting (all trains go to Manhattan, and all but the  are rather north-south within the borough), and the Queens rail network is pure shite. If we're to focus on increasing rail service to LIC, we need to focus on these groups -- especially the eastern portions of the Bronx and Queens, which have especially poor cohesion with the rest of the larger network. Yes, there are improvements that can be made in Brooklyn, but that borough already has the easiest time reaching LIC.

Yeah, of course we should focus on improving Bronx and Queens' connectivity to the other outer boroughs. But that misses the point: the Franklin- connection is attractive largely because how easy it is: we're talking less than a mile of new tunnel. I'm hard pressed to name a similarly simple rail investment that could be made in the Bronx or Queens that would have a comparable connectivity impact. 

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

...But that misses the point: the Franklin- connection is attractive largely because how easy it is: we're talking less than a mile of new tunnel...

Only “real” engineering to be done is figure out the transition to go under Franklin before or after Fulton St, and then decide if the station is at Halsey, Gates or Lexington, and Bob’s your uncle.

[CenSin]

The mentality of antiquity seems to be “build it and they will come.” (Construction is cheap.)

In contrast, the modern mentality seems to be “let’s wait until everybody has made the area very valuable before we give it any attention.” (Construction breaks world records for costs.)

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

The mentality of antiquity seems to be “build it and they will come.” (Construction is cheap.)

In contrast, the modern mentality seems to be “let’s wait until everybody has made the area very valuable before we give it any attention.” (Construction breaks world records for costs.)

IIRC vintage photos correctly, a lot of Queens was sparse farmland before  was built. 
 

And Bay Ridge and the bulk of 4th Av were small single-family or double-family residences before  was built.

Why wait for density to increase before building useful links? By the time it’s sufficiently dense to where the reluctant folks want a transit option, it’s too late - now you’ve got NIMBYs, traffic, rising prop values and rising insurance and construction costs.

Or as we know it, all the problems the rest of America has with building sufficient rail lines to mitigate congestion. 

I like the old NY and Chi, and the old railroad models - use rail to plan development.

[Wallyhorse]

On 12/2/2019 at 9:51 PM, CenSin said:

Imagine if it weren’t neutered. All those painful weekends of track work that knocked out the Brighton Line’s direct connection to Manhattan would be at least mitigated by having a direct connection to another line that did. The substitutes would be simple:

• 7 Avenue: transfer to the at Botanic Garden and get off at Grand Army Plaza or Bergen Street
• Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center: transfer to the at Botanic Garden
• DeKalb Avenue: transfer to the at Botanic Garden and get off at Nevins Street
• Canal Street: transfer to the at Franklin Avenue and get off at Canal Street and walk
• 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the at Botanic Garden
• 34 Street–Herald Square: transfer to the at Botanic Garden and get off at 34 Street–Penn Station
• Times Square–42 Street: transfer to the at Botanic Garden or at Franklin Avenue and get off at 42 Street
• 57 Street–7 Avenue: transfer to the at Franklin Avenue and get off at 59 Street–Columbus Circle
• Lexington Avenue–63 Street: transfer to the at Botanic Garden and get off at 59 Street

Just about all the stops (except those along 2 Avenue) have single-transfer alternatives. It’s surprising how much of a headache the MTA could have saved riders if it had not borked the rebuild of the shuttle in the first place.

I would myself as noted before extend all of the current stations on the Franklin shuttle to 600 feet with the idea of doing an eventual extension of such with additional stops that connect to the at most likely Bedford-Nostrand and a rebuilt portion of the old Myrtle Avenue EL with a stop at Sumner Avenue (from the old line) that would go to a rebuilt upper level of Myrtle Avenue-Broadway and continue to Metropolitan Avenue as the Myrtle-Brighton line, most likely as a "Black " train running between Metropolitan Avenue and Coney Island at all times (part of a re-do of the Brighton line where the  becomes the second Brighton local to Coney Island and the  becomes the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach (extended to Coney Island evenings, overnights and weekends). I'd also as part of this have a connection from the new Myrtle-Brighton line to the Broadway-Brooklyn line so in an emergency, and  trains can use that to get to Manhattan via 6th Avenue (with all stations between Myrtle and Essex extended to 600 feet as Phase 1 of a longer-term plan to eventually extend ALL such Eastern Division stations to 600 feet).  

[RR503]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would myself as noted before extend all of the current stations on the Franklin shuttle to 600 feet with the idea of doing an eventual extension of such with additional stops that connect to the at most likely Bedford-Nostrand and a rebuilt portion of the old Myrtle Avenue EL with a stop at Sumner Avenue (from the old line) that would go to a rebuilt upper level of Myrtle Avenue-Broadway and continue to Metropolitan Avenue as the Myrtle-Brighton line, most likely as a "Black " train running between Metropolitan Avenue and Coney Island at all times (part of a re-do of the Brighton line where the  becomes the second Brighton local to Coney Island and the  becomes the Brighton Express to Brighton Beach (extended to Coney Island evenings, overnights and weekends). I'd also as part of this have a connection from the new Myrtle-Brighton line to the Broadway-Brooklyn line so in an emergency, and  trains can use that to get to Manhattan via 6th Avenue (with all stations between Myrtle and Essex extended to 600 feet as Phase 1 of a longer-term plan to eventually extend ALL such Eastern Division stations to 600 feet).  

So we should link one line through residential neighborhoods (Brighton) with another (Myrtle). Got it. What is a ridership draw, anyway, right?

[CenSin]

On 12/3/2019 at 5:05 PM, Lex said:

Reading is fundamental.

Off-topic, but this reminded me of the days when I worked at a Reading is Fundamental (RIF) site. I would be unpacking boxes of assorted (and brand new) books for distribution to kids. When I had the time, I would sit atop one of the boxes in the storage room and read one of the books myself. Good old days…

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

So we should link one line through residential neighborhoods (Brighton) with another (Myrtle). Got it. What is a ridership draw, anyway, right?

I don’t see his point either. Especially since this whole thing morphed into an exercise in adding an extra redundancy into the system - rerouting  trains on Franklin to link with the IRT and IND if the Brighton tunnel is closed or obstructed.

If it’s to be built and connected to the Jamaica Line, it’d probably make more sense to connect it to the Willy B to both allow for a loop back to Brighton via Nassau or Christie St to still service 96th St and the Bronx (like  running on 8th Av or on Broadway swapping with ), but maybe that’s just me.

[TrainRider Railfan]

On 11/29/2019 at 11:16 AM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 (  is rerouted to Astoria)

I think your idea is great but could Astoria take that much traffic? Also you’re basically wasting the track connection made specifically for connecting Broadway and Queens Blvd.  riders would have to make unnecessary transfers to get onto Queens Blvd. Maybe reroute the  or  instead.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, TrainRider Railfan said:

I think your idea is great but could Astoria take that much traffic? Also you’re basically wasting the track connection made specifically for connecting Broadway and Queens Blvd.  riders would have to make unnecessary transfers to get onto Queens Blvd. Maybe reroute the  or  instead.

The  and  in my idea BOTH run on 63rd and QB Local. In that scenario, 63rd and QB Local will run at or near full capacity. The  and a new  service will fill up the capacity along the entirety of 53rd Street.

As for Astoria, I believe it can only turn about 15 TPH or so given the current design of the Interlocking’s just outside Ditmars. Maybe someone else on here can give you a detailed explanation about Ditmars’ terminal capacity, but one thing that we know for sure is that sooner or later, we need to address the interlockings outside Ditmars. 

Since the idea here is to remove the  and create a  extension up Northern Blvd, a new passageway could be built between Lexington 59-Lexington 63rd to mitigate this issue.