Suffolk County may cut 46% of its bus routes

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

My point is don't be so quick to use some arbitrary standard to cut somebody's service and then try to beat around the bush when that same standard is applied to your own services. I can guarantee you there are express bus trips out there that regularly carry 1-2 riders per trip, and I guarantee you that there are trips that use 2 hours worth of resources to transport 3 riders or fewer. 

In this particular case, I don't believe the S69 should exist as-is (evening service in Suffolk County should be expanded, but not by piecemealing together random portions of daytime routes), and I don't believe those low ridership off-peak express bus trips should exist either. (And before you go around and try to twist my words, obviously there are plenty of off-peak express bus trips with decent ridership and those should be kept, as well as cases where the bus is deadheading in that direction anyway so the marginal cost of running the trip is low)

What arbitrary standard? The route carries three people all day. Give me a break. I'm not advocating for cutting anyone's service. I'm simply stating my opinion, which I have a right to exercise. If they keep the service, good for them. Funny how you only comment on what I stated. I'm not the only one that feels that way. I said earlier that they should attempt to accommodate those people if they do cut the service, and I stand by that. I have no real stake in this either way, so I'm simply sharing my opinion. For the record, I have talked with the  about the need to better advertise express bus service, which they do a piss poor job of, and the need for more reliable service, so I believe there are many reasons why some routes don't perform as well as they could and those issues should be looked at before any sort of cuts take place.

I don't know why this route only sees three people, but there must be a good reason for it. Does it run on-time? Two trips a day is not much. Before I would literally advocate for cutting someone's service, I would look at every way to keep it. For example, with the QM4, I proposed extending it to the Fresh Meadows complex to garner more ridership off-peak. That would give riders more service aside from the QM5.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[jaf0519]

53 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What arbitrary standard? The route carries three people all day. Give me a break. I'm not advocating for cutting anyone's service. I'm simply stating my opinion, which I have a right to exercise. If they keep the service, good for them. Funny how you only comment on what I stated. I'm not the only one that feels that way. I said earlier that they should attempt to accommodate those people if they do cut the service, and I stand by that. I have no real stake in this either way, so I'm simply sharing my opinion. For the record, I have talked with the  about the need to better advertise express bus service, which they do a piss poor job of, and the need for more reliable service, so I believe there are many reasons why some routes don't perform as well as they could and those issues should be looked at before any sort of cuts take place.

I don't know why this route only sees three people, but there must be a good reason for it. Does it run on-time? Two trips a day is not much. Before I would literally advocate for cutting someone's service, I would look at every way to keep it. For example, with the QM4, I proposed extending it to the Fresh Meadows complex to garner more ridership off-peak. That would give riders more service aside from the QM5.

I’ll try to explain why the S69 has only carries three passengers a day.

S69 does two loops to the Port Jefferson Shopping Plaza; one at 8:20 PM and one at 9:20 PM

It covers the S60 eastbound between Lake Grove-Smith Haven Mall and Port Jefferson with the buses arriving at Lake Grove at 8:45 and 9:45 respectively. The last S60 before this was at 7:30 and it ran hourly, so a 75 minute gap isn’t that much worse.

It also covers the S62 westbound between Port Jefferson and Lake Grove with the buses leaving Port Jeff at 8:20 and 9:20. The last S62 to Lake Grove prior to the first S69 was at 5:00 PM, a 3 1/2 hour gap in service. 

And finally of all of the other buses that the S69 can can connect to on its route, the S56, S58, S63, 3D, 6B in Lake Grove, or the S61 and S76 in Port Jefferson (plus the LIRR), NONE of the bus routes run past 7 or 8 PM, and only the 9:41 PM train can be connected to within 30 minutes of the S69.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

I’ll try to explain why the S69 has only carries three passengers a day.

S69 does two loops to the Port Jefferson Shopping Plaza; one at 8:20 PM and one at 9:20 PM

It covers the S60 eastbound between Lake Grove-Smith Haven Mall and Port Jefferson with the buses arriving at Lake Grove at 8:45 and 9:45 respectively. The last S60 before this was at 7:30 and it ran hourly, so a 75 minute gap isn’t that much worse.

It also covers the S62 westbound between Port Jefferson and Lake Grove with the buses leaving Port Jeff at 8:20 and 9:20. The last S62 to Lake Grove prior to the first S69 was at 5:00 PM, a 3 1/2 hour gap in service. 

And finally of all of the other buses that the S69 can can connect to on its route, the S56, S58, S63, 3D, 6B in Lake Grove, or the S61 and S76 in Port Jefferson (plus the LIRR), NONE of the bus routes run past 7 or 8 PM, and only the 9:41 PM train can be connected to within 30 minutes of the S69.

Sounds like a mess...

[Lex]

1 hour ago, jaf0519 said:

I’ll try to explain why the S69 has only carries three passengers a day.

S69 does two loops to the Port Jefferson Shopping Plaza; one at 8:20 PM and one at 9:20 PM

It covers the S60 eastbound between Lake Grove-Smith Haven Mall and Port Jefferson with the buses arriving at Lake Grove at 8:45 and 9:45 respectively. The last S60 before this was at 7:30 and it ran hourly, so a 75 minute gap isn’t that much worse.

It also covers the S62 westbound between Port Jefferson and Lake Grove with the buses leaving Port Jeff at 8:20 and 9:20. The last S62 to Lake Grove prior to the first S69 was at 5:00 PM, a 3 1/2 hour gap in service. 

And finally of all of the other buses that the S69 can can connect to on its route, the S56, S58, S63, 3D, 6B in Lake Grove, or the S61 and S76 in Port Jefferson (plus the LIRR), NONE of the bus routes run past 7 or 8 PM, and only the 9:41 PM train can be connected to within 30 minutes of the S69.

In other words, QUALITY planning...

[B35 via Church]

20 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It would be nice if the article listed the routes in a reasonable order (either by ridership or numerically). I copied it into Excel and sorted it out for those who want a closer look

See my deleted post up there? That's part of the reason I rescinded it....

I ended up doing it manually (as in, copied & pasted their placements one by one to where the route numbers were be in order).... Then I was going to opine on which of the cuts I think are justified (all things considered).... During the analysis, I realized I'd need to change a whole lot of shit (which goes to your point about SCT's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, instead of considering retaining portions of routes to be discontinued)... So being that I was pressed for time at that particular moment, I just said f*** it....

20 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

....If push came to shove, and they had to reduce service in the Ronkonkoma/Holbrook/Bohemia area, I think the best way to go about doing it would be to route the S54 (for argument's sake, I'll just say your proposal is a restructured S54) via the Colony Park Apartments, run across the S59 route (I'd have buses stay on Grundy as opposed to swinging over to Coates), and then continue straight down Broadway Avenue to Montauk Highway. And on the northern end, I'd have buses continue to Commack Shopping Plaza for all of the connections there to/from NW Suffolk County.

The S57 would take Johnson-Ocean-Lakeland-Route 454, serve the airport, and then run down Johnson to Lakeland to end in Sayville.

Also, while we're on the topic of the Hauppauge area, what do you think of having the 3D run down to Bay Shore via Washington Avenue (taking over the southern part of the S45). The only real disadvantage would be that you lose the quick connection to the Port Jefferson Branch, but if you want the LIRR coming from Hauppauge, you're better off going to the Ronkonkoma Branch anyway (most of the stations on the Port Jefferson Branch itself can be reached by bus). 

The other idea I had was to extend the S33 to Smith Haven (via the S62 route) and cut the S62 back to Smith Haven on weekdays (it already ends there on Saturdays).

I'm not sure I understand what you'd have the S54 do between the Colony Park apts. & Montauk Hwy... If you could, could you give a street-by-street breakdown, before I opine on that?

As far as the S57, I would phase the southern portion out with (an altered) 6a & be done with it.... After LIRR Ronkonkoma (due south), I would have it doing exactly what you're saying you'd do with the S57.... In other words, a Sayville - Coram route →  Something like this

Sure, you can easily phase out the S45 with the 3D & it would be quite popular too.... Vast majority of the S45's usage is b/w Bay Shore (first stop) & Central Islip... I have seen full on crowds tank at Brentwood (from the south) for other buses (incl. the 3D)... You would still have the quick connection to LIRR Stony Brook, unless you're talking about cutting 3D's back to Smith Haven to extend them south of LIRR Brentwood? All things considered (dire situation), I would have the 3D run b/w LIRR Stony Brook & Mechanicsville rd (bus terminal in Bay Shore).....

The S33 I would leave ending at Oser/Old Willets Path in Hauppauge... Well, speaking of that, believe it or not, the S33 operates like a loop route (kind of like our M60)... The last NB dropoff stop on the schedule is technically at Oser/Old Willets Path - but passengers (weekdays) can ride past Oser/Old Willets Path as far as Wheeler/Rabro... Meaning, you can ride from Sunrise Mall, through all the county offices, on down to Wheeler/Rabro (believe me, I tried riding past Rabro on the sly & the b/o wasn't having ANY of it ).... Anyway, even though they'd leave it be, I would still re-purpose the S33 south of Deer Park Tanger though → Something like this

I'd have the S23 be a route running b/w Sunrise Mall & Cohalan courts (Central Islip) via portions of various routes.... The S29 would go (back) to ending at LIRR Babylon, with the rest of the route being left as is).....

I can't get to what I'd do with every single route (as far as mapping them is concerned) right this second, but if you wanna inquire about something, go right ahead...

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church For the S54 I would have it take Broadway Avenue - Opal Street - Parkside Street - Grundy Avenue - Furrows Road - Main Street - Union Avenue - Mill Road/Railroad Avenue/Johnson Avenue/Lakeland Street - Ocean Avenue - Peconic Street - 5th Avenue - Route 454 (then take your proposed route to Hauppauge, but continue a bit further to Commack Shopping Plaza)

So just to be clear, riders traveling between Smith Haven and the Main Line would have to take the 3D then? (The reason I still had the S57 running to Smith Haven is because the S59 would be phased out with the S54 and S57)

Yeah I'd still have buses running up to Stony Brook. Between the annoying up-and-over transfer at Huntington and the fact that the Main Line is generally more frequent than the Port Washington Branch (plus all the bus connections available in Brentwood & Central Islip) 

I believe the S27 also does something similar in Hauppauge (not sure if you can ride through or not). 

For the S33, I think it's better off running down Straight Path (remember the S27 connects Deer Park/Tanger/Hauppuage to Babylon). For the S23 I would have it run down Nicolls Road, swing down to the Wyandanch LIRR station, and then folllow the 2B route to SUNY Farmingdale (to maintain the connection to the S1)

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church For the S54 I would have it take Broadway Avenue - Opal Street - Parkside Street - Grundy Avenue - Furrows Road - Main Street - Union Avenue - Mill Road/Railroad Avenue/Johnson Avenue/Lakeland Street - Ocean Avenue - Peconic Street - 5th Avenue - Route 454 (then take your proposed route to Hauppauge, but continue a bit further to Commack Shopping Plaza)

So just to be clear, riders traveling between Smith Haven and the Main Line would have to take the 3D then? (The reason I still had the S57 running to Smith Haven is because the S59 would be phased out with the S54 and S57)

Yeah I'd still have buses running up to Stony Brook. Between the annoying up-and-over transfer at Huntington and the fact that the Main Line is generally more frequent than the Port Washington Branch (plus all the bus connections available in Brentwood & Central Islip) 

I believe the S27 also does something similar in Hauppauge (not sure if you can ride through or not). 

For the S33, I think it's better off running down Straight Path (remember the S27 connects Deer Park/Tanger/Hauppuage to Babylon). For the S23 I would have it run down Nicolls Road, swing down to the Wyandanch LIRR station, and then folllow the 2B route to SUNY Farmingdale (to maintain the connection to the S1)

- The problem with the S23 is that it's basically (actually used as) not much more than an S29 alternative b/w Whitman Mall & LIRR Babylon... Combining the southern portion of the S23 & the eastern 2/3-rds of the S33 is simply a better use of resources.... Sure, I'm aware of the S27 - and in saying that, said resultant route (proposed S33) & the S27 running between LIRR Babylon & the County Offices in Hauppauge would make for a better allocation of funds than to have the current S23 & S29 running between LIRR Babylon & Whitman... That's how I see it.... The folks on the S33 boarding at Sunrise & LIRR Amityville generally don't ride further than (anywhere in) Deer Park.... Knowing that, that's why I have a (repurposed) S23 running between Sunrise & the courts in Central Islip (I suppose I could give it another number, but I don't get too hung up on nomenclature)... It wouldn't run along all of Straight Path though, because I would also have it covering most of the portion of the 1A that sees the most usage (the lower half of the route)... I wouldn't worry too much about maintaining the direct connection b/w Amityville & Hauppauge, particularly...

- Yeah, it's the exact same situation with the S27 & the S33... Buses can't layover over there along Oser at Old Willets Path (although I'm willing to bet that you do have some drivers that take a small break at any one of the county offices, if there's no one on board after having served the (light) industrial part of Hauppauge)....

- In terms of riding b/w Smith Haven & any one of the main line stations, neither the #3D or the S57/59 is all that great (even for SCT standards), to be honest.... Depending on how late it is, I usually gun for the S57/59 over the #3D, since at least I can stop off for some pizza (or other junk food at the newsstand) directly at LIRR Ronkonkoma itself.... But to answer your question, anyone needing the (or the areas around the) main line from Smith Haven would have to take the #3D.... I honestly see a #3D b/w Bay shore & Smith Haven via the S45 routing south of LIRR Brentwood being almost, if not as popular as the infamous S1.... SCT could use more compact routes of the sort.... That's what I'm trying to create with that proposed partial S23/33 combo & the combo of an (altered) S57 & 6a....

Speaking of which, even though they're talking about canning both the 6a & the 6b, and being that the 6b apparently garners more riders, I would still keep more portions of the 6a around than that of the 6b.... The 6b, S58, and S63 all seem to be used interchangeably from Smith Haven... I would can the #6b & just have (some) S63 trips serving Hawkins, etc. up there in Selden & Centereach....

-----

As far as the #2B is concerned, I'd keep the entire route around & get rid of the S42 (which is a route I'm surprised that's been spared, over some of these that's currently on the chopping block)... That, or extend the #2B over the Islip av portion of the S42 (and turn buses off at Suffolk av, to end where it (the S42) currently does at LIRR Central Islip - instead of that shit it does north of Suffolk av along Joshua's Path & Wheeler rd, before it terminates at the station)....

Lastly, alright, that's what I thought; your S54's basically serving LIRR Ronkonkoma (which was the crux of what I was trying to figure out)..... See, the thing with the current S54 is that it's more or less an (unofficial) non-stop portion b/w Sun Vet & LIRR Patchogue - and it tends to crawl between those two points, on top of it... That's the problem I have with retaining that part of the S54... But since you're talking about running buses via Broadway av. through Holbrook, on up to LIRR Ronkonkoma, I don't have too much of a problem with the suggestion.

Edited October 5, 2020 by B35 via Church

[checkmatechamp13]

That's pretty surprising about the S23/29 dynamic. I would think that the S23 would be the stronger of the two since it goes through Wyandanch.

For the S42, that seems very strange how ridership has fallen over the years. I remember a few years ago, the user Amtrak7 posted some SCT stats and the S42 wasn't as high as it would've expected it to be, but it seems over the past few years, ridership really took a nosedive. The surrounding routes (3B, 3C, etc) seem to be doing decent, Islip Avenue is a main corridor, Central Islip is a working-class area, and I'm scratching my head as to how this route is so low-performing.

BTW did you happen to see the S19 SCT was proposing? Someone found the schedule on rideschedules and it was basically SCT picking up the eastern portion of the old n72, with a slight modification (SUNY Farmingdale to Babylon). IIRC a while back they had a public hearing to add some service to the S66 and they proposed this route at the same time but somehow only the extra S66 service got added.

IIRC when they first discontinued the n72, we got into a discussion on how to restructure service and I mentioned I would have it swing down and pick up part of the 1A. (I remember that discussion had some good ideas in general about SW Suffolk County. I'll see if I can find it)

For argument's sake, if you were to run the S23 up the 1A line would you have the S20 cover the portion on Dixon (e.g. Dixon-Sunrise Highway-Wellwood) or would you just eliminate the S20 and use the resources elsewhere?

[Lex]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

For the S42, that seems very strange how ridership has fallen over the years. I remember a few years ago, the user Amtrak7 posted some SCT stats and the S42 wasn't as high as it would've expected it to be, but it seems over the past few years, ridership really took a nosedive. The surrounding routes (3B, 3C, etc) seem to be doing decent, Islip Avenue is a main corridor, Central Islip is a working-class area, and I'm scratching my head as to how this route is so low-performing.

Thinking about it, I don't think I could say the route was too hot back when my grandmother was alive (if I remember correctly, I was 10 when she died, so I'm talking 1998-2005). I also wouldn't be surprised if more than a few people who are able to use either the S42 or S45 are gunning for the latter (not only is it straighter between certain shared points, but it's also more frequent and has a better service span).

I can certainly imagine that more than a bit of the Union Boulevard leg is bogged down by running near the Montauk Branch, which serves as a physical barrier for more than a short stretch, to say nothing of the Mechanicsville Road diversion...

[checkmatechamp13]

On 10/6/2020 at 6:41 AM, Lex said:

Thinking about it, I don't think I could say the route was too hot back when my grandmother was alive (if I remember correctly, I was 10 when she died, so I'm talking 1998-2005). I also wouldn't be surprised if more than a few people who are able to use either the S42 or S45 are gunning for the latter (not only is it straighter between certain shared points, but it's also more frequent and has a better service span).

I can certainly imagine that more than a bit of the Union Boulevard leg is bogged down by running near the Montauk Branch, which serves as a physical barrier for more than a short stretch, to say nothing of the Mechanicsville Road diversion...

With the Mechanicsville Road diversion, IIRC, there's only a bus stop in the eastbound direction, so do westbound buses have to loop through the area twice? If that's the case, that's a waste, and they should just have westbound buses stop on the other side of the street, and people can just cross the street if they need to transfer.

I had an idea to cut the S42 back to Bay Shore, have it bypass South Shore Mall, and cover the busiest portion of the 3C in Central Islip. Something like this. Do you think it could work? (Obviously given the budget situation). If the S54 were restructured to run past the Central Islip LIRR station, and then up Hawthorne Avenue to Motor Parkway, that would cover the northern portion of the 3C.

[Lex]

2 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

With the Mechanicsville Road diversion, IIRC, there's only a bus stop in the eastbound direction, so do westbound buses have to loop through the area twice? If that's the case, that's a waste, and they should just have westbound buses stop on the other side of the street, and people can just cross the street if they need to transfer.

I had an idea to cut the S42 back to Bay Shore, have it bypass South Shore Mall, and cover the busiest portion of the 3C in Central Islip. Something like this. Do you think it could work? (Obviously given the budget situation). If the S54 were restructured to run past the Central Islip LIRR station, and then up Hawthorne Avenue to Motor Parkway, that would cover the northern portion of the 3C.

I couldn't really say. Of every bus route that serves the Central Islip station, the 3C is the only one I can say (with any confidence) I've never used.

[B35 via Church]

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

With the Mechanicsville Road diversion, IIRC, there's only a bus stop in the eastbound direction, so do westbound buses have to loop through the area twice? If that's the case, that's a waste, and they should just have westbound buses stop on the other side of the street, and people can just cross the street if they need to transfer.

I had an idea to cut the S42 back to Bay Shore, have it bypass South Shore Mall, and cover the busiest portion of the 3C in Central Islip. Something like this. Do you think it could work? (Obviously given the budget situation). If the S54 were restructured to run past the Central Islip LIRR station, and then up Hawthorne Avenue to Motor Parkway, that would cover the northern portion of the 3C.

I know I have to get back to post #33 in this thread (days of procrastination), but the reply to this one is gonna be much shorter/quicker...

Anyway, with the WB S42, it stops inside of that filthy ass parking lot (technically south of Mechanicsville) between Park & Smith.... Same as the WB S40... The NE end of the lot, are where the bus shelters are at... I personally hate waiting for buses there..... It's where the routes that end there, layover at.

In regards to your 3C idea, I didn't know you wouldn't have it directly serving the courts (which is a [I would say the] biggest ridership generator of the route).... That part of it is a bad idea, if it's intentional.... Or is that a case of the map not letting you render inside the area? Also, I would also have buses serving CI Town Center (not sure why SCT took the #3c out of there... it used to serve it, around the time it first opened up), and running up Carleton to Suffolk av... You can still have buses serving LIRR Central Islip before turning back to run down Carleton... After serving Boulevard av, etc, then you have buses running up Lowell to Suffolk av, enroute to Islip av & Bay Shore.....

Edited October 12, 2020 by B35 via Church

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church Thank you for pointing that out. I revised the map (I couldn't get the Central Islip Town Center diversion to show).

Yeah I didn't realize the courts were a little bit further off Carleton (also, I was originally thinking about having buses running straight down Spur Drive North, but since there was no sidewalk I figured Manhattan Blvd would be better. But looking at the area closer, running it through the courts is a no-brainer.

[B35 via Church]

31 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Thank you for pointing that out. I revised the map (I couldn't get the Central Islip Town Center diversion to show).

Yeah I didn't realize the courts were a little bit further off Carleton (also, I was originally thinking about having buses running straight down Spur Drive North, but since there was no sidewalk I figured Manhattan Blvd would be better. But looking at the area closer, running it through the courts is a no-brainer.

IDK why google maps doesn't show the little bus stop icon for bus stops throughout Suffolk county (pretty sure that would've been of a help to your S42 inquiry).....

Anyway, for accuracy purposes, you're actually not serving the courts with what you have drawn here... You're serving Touro & those condo's/residential community over there along Eastview dr...... Be there as it may, that whole entire sectioned off section of Central Islip b/w Carleton & Eastview is flat out weird (they really went full retard with putting that ballpark in there)..... Just waiting for an amusement park & a movie theater & that'll really cap the stupidity off.... But yeah, after turning off on Courthouse dr., buses make that 2nd right hand turn & run all the way down, in front of the courthouse buildings...

This has gotten me to wanting to render the actual routings of SCT's routes (of course, the Doug & Adriene LI bus map is of no help, for a few reasons - as you can see).... Some SCT routes I can draw without using the SCT bus map & the individual route timetables as a guide, but for most of them east of Patchogue, I would have to fan them again for accuracy.... Usually, I can remember what a route does from end to end after fanning it once (which is odd for me, being that my short term memory typically sucks)....

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church Suffolk County never uploaded their GTFS feed to Google Maps (So they're not on Google Maps/Google Transit). It's so strange: At this point they have tracking on their buses, they have their schedules available in a GTFS format, but somehow they're not on Google Maps.

Yeah, I'm looking at the actual stop lists for the 3C (NB and SB). I don't know if it has to do with the lack of crosswalks or what, but there should definitely be more stops along Carleton Avenue than there actually are. According to the list, you have Suffolk & Weeks (LIRR station), Carleton & Suffolk, Carleton & Smith, Bishop McGann Village (even though the schedule shows it served only on the way back towards the LIRR & South Shore Mall), and then the courts. (And heading back towards the LIRR you also have NYIT)

The way I see it, at a minimum they should add a stop at Sunburst Blvd (well I guess that's Bishop McGann Village, but they should put some crosswalks in at that intersection to serve both sides of the neighborhood, and just stop there without looping in/out), Gullhaven Drive (ideally go into Central Islip Town Center if possible), and since my loop would involve buses going southbound on Carleton, they should still add a stop across from NYIT (since there's a crosswalk there). And probably another stop in between Suffolk & Smith.

I dunno, I get that Suffolk County is car-centric, but that area just seems unnecessarily so (starting of course like you mentioned, from the fact that it's isolated from the rest of Central Islip). 

[B35 via Church]

On 10/6/2020 at 2:25 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's pretty surprising about the S23/29 dynamic. I would think that the S23 would be the stronger of the two since it goes through Wyandanch.

For the S42, that seems very strange how ridership has fallen over the years. I remember a few years ago, the user Amtrak7 posted some SCT stats and the S42 wasn't as high as it would've expected it to be, but it seems over the past few years, ridership really took a nosedive. The surrounding routes (3B, 3C, etc) seem to be doing decent, Islip Avenue is a main corridor, Central Islip is a working-class area, and I'm scratching my head as to how this route is so low-performing.

BTW did you happen to see the S19 SCT was proposing? Someone found the schedule on rideschedules and it was basically SCT picking up the eastern portion of the old n72, with a slight modification (SUNY Farmingdale to Babylon). IIRC a while back they had a public hearing to add some service to the S66 and they proposed this route at the same time but somehow only the extra S66 service got added.

IIRC when they first discontinued the n72, we got into a discussion on how to restructure service and I mentioned I would have it swing down and pick up part of the 1A. (I remember that discussion had some good ideas in general about SW Suffolk County. I'll see if I can find it)

For argument's sake, if you were to run the S23 up the 1A line would you have the S20 cover the portion on Dixon (e.g. Dixon-Sunrise Highway-Wellwood) or would you just eliminate the S20 and use the resources elsewhere?

- More people use the S23 b/w Babylon & Wyandanch than people do the S29 b/w Babylon & Deer Park/Grand, but it's the Dix Hills portion of the S23 that's a] slows the route down a lot & b] took a bit of a hit, usage-wise (even for SCT standards).... Folks along Grand definitely use S23's, 2b's, & S33's (reading that last reply regarding this, I probably should've pointed that out - wasn't trying to implicate nobody uses buses along that stretch [but it's much more towards Babylon than it is Whitman]... matter fact, that's the main reason I'd have that proposed S33 loop off Deer Park av to serve LIRR Wyandanch area, to pan back to serve Deer Park Tanger, etc.)..... I don't want to make it out like the S29 is this juggernaut usage-wise either, because it definitely isn't.... The second it turns off Jericho Tpke., you can get a good, relatively fast non-stop ride more often than not, all the way down to that general area just north of the LIE..... With the S23, if nobody gets on at the college, you're gonna get a nonstop ride b/w Whitman & Wyandanch more often than not - but it crawls.... I guess what I'm getting at is that more people have grown to find the S29 more useful from end to end (well, b/w Babylon & Whitman... I keep forgetting they extended the S29 down to GSB shopping ctr)....

- @Lex stole my thunder a bit... To me, your compass of the S42 is way too far north (analogously speaking)... It was never all too great as far as I can recall (mid-to-late 90's) & what I'm scratching my head over, is how it's managing to survive.... This may or may not have anything to do with its losses, but around the time the news was reporting crimes MS-13 was committing in that general pocket of the county (Brentwood/Central Islip, etc.), there was a bit of an exodus of homeowners jumping ship in Islip (north of Sunrise.... btw, there's this sort of rift b/w those that live south of Sunrise Hwy & those north of it.... the latter is viewed as lesser than/lower class from the former)... I wouldn't doubt that a nice little chunk of that exodus of people leaving LI for NC (North Carolina) emanated from that part of Suffolk.... @Trainmaster5 could perhaps be more descript about that than I could....

Even if you choose to ignore that entire paragraph above, the western half of the route simply performs that poorly.... You're not gonna find much of anybody specifically seeking S42's over S40's... Kind of/Sort of like the situation at PBP where you see far more people gunning for Bx12's over Bx29's to get to Bay Plaza....

- While I knew about an S19, nah, I never ended up seeing what it specifically entailed.... It's crazy how similar it is to what I proposed for it though (same exact concept - except I had it running to LIRR Farmingdale, non-stop via Melville rd. after having served SUNY Farmingdale)... It was nothing short of dumb for both Nassau & Suffolk counties to have left 109 with nothing like that... I can only imagine the amt. of people that got severely inconvenienced (or even ended up losing their jobs) over that bone-headed display of negligence....

To this day, I still say they should've kept the n72 around over the n71... Once upon a time, the N71 (note the capital letter) had decent patronage out of Sunrise (the N54/55's usage was still greater though).... From Hempstead, the N54/55 was a de-facto express N71, being that there was a crapton of stops being made along Hempstead Tpke (that phenomenon is still ongoing with the n54/55 vs. the n71 to Sunrise btw).... When Sunrise fell off as hard as it did, people stopped taking buses there in the numbers that they used to - So much so that the n71 ended up carrying air, south of 109..... It's funny how the N70 started out as an N72 short turn, but now the n72 (lowercase) has been severely bastardized to that of being a differently nomenclated n70 that stops dead at 110, that only operates earlier than the earliest n70 trip & later than the latest n70 trip on weekdays (and constitutes all [n7__] service along the corridor on weekends).... At that point, it's like WTF is the point of keeping the n72 nomenclature? False hope??? I mean, it's right up there with the "n40/41" bit - hell, matter fact, I'd say it's worse....

side note: Good call about that discussion you referenced... I agree, that was a good discussion we had... It took place in the SCT proposals thread.... Here we go

side note #2: Who knew that the n54 got an extension that has it somehow flying or teleporting from [Shaw/Merrick in Valley Stream] to [Jerusalem/Catherine in Hempstead]

 

- The S20's been so bastardized over the years, to the point where (if we're talking about cutting losses due to budget cuts), I'd get rid of it.... Redistribute resources elsewhere/differently.... I get that their hand was forced when the n19 got cut back to Sunrise, but the whole, turning the S20 into a loop route has been quite the fail.... I remember once upon a time when the S20 actually used to be packed leaving from either end of the route (well, when it got cut back to Sunrise, that is).... When it used to run out to that Kohl's in Massapequa Park, that part of the route carried nothing but air....

Edited October 13, 2020 by B35 via Church
split post.

[B35 via Church]

23 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Suffolk County never uploaded their GTFS feed to Google Maps (So they're not on Google Maps/Google Transit). It's so strange: At this point they have tracking on their buses, they have their schedules available in a GTFS format, but somehow they're not on Google Maps.

Yeah, I'm looking at the actual stop lists for the 3C (NB and SB). I don't know if it has to do with the lack of crosswalks or what, but there should definitely be more stops along Carleton Avenue than there actually are. According to the list, you have Suffolk & Weeks (LIRR station), Carleton & Suffolk, Carleton & Smith, Bishop McGann Village (even though the schedule shows it served only on the way back towards the LIRR & South Shore Mall), and then the courts. (And heading back towards the LIRR you also have NYIT)

The way I see it, at a minimum they should add a stop at Sunburst Blvd (well I guess that's Bishop McGann Village, but they should put some crosswalks in at that intersection to serve both sides of the neighborhood, and just stop there without looping in/out), Gullhaven Drive (ideally go into Central Islip Town Center if possible), and since my loop would involve buses going southbound on Carleton, they should still add a stop across from NYIT (since there's a crosswalk there). And probably another stop in between Suffolk & Smith.

I dunno, I get that Suffolk County is car-centric, but that area just seems unnecessarily so (starting of course like you mentioned, from the fact that it's isolated from the rest of Central Islip). 

Then you gotta wonder if it's a conscious/intentional decision on SCT's part (for whatever reason{s} they may have).... You'd think it'd be a way (albeit minuscule) to spawn more patronage of the county's buses, but.... *shrugs*

I can understand the stop setup south of Smith (Carleton av's street layout gets parkway-like down there, akin to Flatbush av. south of Utica... compare it to the Q35, south of Kings Plaza), but I could have sworn there were more stops b/w Suffolk & Smith.... I'm not going crazy... I'm looking at that current stop list, and yeah, they've eliminated some stops over the years... Definitely.... Because as I mentioned earlier, buses used to stop inside the CI Town Center around the time it first opened up.... Not only that, but inside the complex (or w/e you wanna call it) where the courts, the ballpark, Touro, etc. are all situated inside of, it wasn't just one stop inside of there....

IIRC, going back towards SS Mall, the first stop was at the family court (current terminal; last stop=first stop), then the next stop was down there at the district courts (inside that parking lot, just north of Spur dr.), then it doubled back onto Federal plaza to eventually get to Eastview dr. to stop at Touro, and I *think* it also stopped at the ballpark, before exiting that entire complex, to get to Carleton.... To be honest though, I agree with only having the one stop in there, because that doubling back it did to get to & from the Eastern district court alone, was a royal PITA for the few people that benefited from it.... Nobody utilized that stop along Eastview dr. & nobody got off for the ballpark.... I don't understand why there wasn't a walkway carved out to get to Federal plaza from the *main* court complex though....

I would only add a stop at Sunburst at the request of those Sunburst Terrace patrons.... I can understand not adding a stop at Gullhaven, but it should serve the mall/town center at minimum..... If/when they build up that part of Central Islip more (between Smith & the SSP), there's a good chance they'll add more stops along Carleton b/w Court house dr. & Gullhaven...

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church Do you think sending the n71 down Route 110 to Amityville would help boost ridership? I know that's the more residential portion of the S1 (vs. the commercial/business park area in the middle of the route), but at least those riders would be connected to the Main Line.

But yeah I agree they should've kept thr n72 instead. Even from a coverage-point of view, the n71 is semi-close to the S1 (and n54/55) whereas n72 riders are SOL. But definitely from a ridership point of view the n72 was stronger.

Also, what do you think of extending the n78 to Route 110? (So at least people heading to/from that area have access to the Main Line at Hicksville). Or is that route a lost cause? (Honestly, after all those service cuts in the early 2010s I kind of lost track of which routes were cut and which were restored. IIRC the n79 was cut to rush hours and I believe they added back a bit of Saturday service. The N78 was always a rush hour route heading back to MTA days)

Good find with that SCT thread. 😎

On the S29, out of the riders who are still on the bus north of Deer Park, how many would you say get off along Jericho Turnpike vs. Walt Whitman itself?

Between Federal Plaza and the main court complex, there's no fence, right (I'm looking at Google Streetview)? At least pedestrians have the option to walk across the grass, though I agree there should be a proper walkway.

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church Do you think sending the n71 down Route 110 to Amityville would help boost ridership? I know that's the more residential portion of the S1 (vs. the commercial/business park area in the middle of the route), but at least those riders would be connected to the Main Line.

But yeah I agree they should've kept thr n72 instead. Even from a coverage-point of view, the n71 is semi-close to the S1 (and n54/55) whereas n72 riders are SOL. But definitely from a ridership point of view the n72 was stronger.

Also, what do you think of extending the n78 to Route 110? (So at least people heading to/from that area have access to the Main Line at Hicksville). Or is that route a lost cause? (Honestly, after all those service cuts in the early 2010s I kind of lost track of which routes were cut and which were restored. IIRC the n79 was cut to rush hours and I believe they added back a bit of Saturday service. The N78 was always a rush hour route heading back to MTA days)

Good find with that SCT thread. 😎

On the S29, out of the riders who are still on the bus north of Deer Park, how many would you say get off along Jericho Turnpike vs. Walt Whitman itself?

Between Federal Plaza and the main court complex, there's no fence, right (I'm looking at Google Streetview)? At least pedestrians have the option to walk across the grass, though I agree there should be a proper walkway.

- Running n71's down 110 would instantly boost ridership (SCT might have something to say about it though)..... It would need to take Main to 109 to 110 though; continuing on Main to 110 would stunt the growth increase.... Of those people that are taking n54's to Sunrise, the majority of them (in the mornings anyway) xfer to the S33... Very few of those riders are actually seeking Sunrise Mall itself.... Anyway, thing about that is, some of those people take the S33 to LIRR Amityville for the S1..... This makes sense, because when the N54 used to run to LIRR Amityville, virtually all of those people that were still on the bus after having served Sunrise, used to xfer to the S1 at LIRR Amityville..

There was a time when the S20 used to carry more than the S33 did to/from Sunrise, but now a large majority of it now goes towards the S33..... With that said, you do have Nassau patrons (of the ones that use NICE and/or the LIRR, I'm specifically referring to) that want no part of having to use SCT; it's a deterrent for them.... This is why I say that if the n71 ran down 110 from 109 to LIRR Amityville, it was steal a nice little significant chunk of riders from off the S1.... The question with that then becomes, how would NICE decide to divvy up n70 & n71 service along Hempstead Tpke, etc..... An hourly bus (current n71 service levels) to Amityville won't cut it.

- NICE is trying it's best to passively kill off the n78... It's actually still heavily used (well, all things considered, with its measly 2 trips each way... It's doing a hell of a lot better than the S31, I'll tell you that much).... If not for having it be a standalone route, I would've combined portions of the N95 with the N78.. Not only that, but I would've had it terminate w/ the N35 via the N22 west of Hicksville... Would've been a solid rush hour route.... So to your point about running it to 110, I would it (still) try my hand at it, even with it's two trips......

- Of anyone that's on a NB S29 north of Deer park, most get off at Whitman.... Of course it depends on the trip/time of day, but generally speaking, I'd say the split is 20/80.

- Nah, there was never any fence separating those two separate court buildings.... Just the grass, as you see on the google maps.

[checkmatechamp13]

@B35 via Church Interestingly enough, the n78 runs Saturdays now! http://www.nicebus.com/NICE/media/NiceBusPDFSchedules/NICE-n78_MapSchedule.pdf

IIRC, the N79 ran every hour on Saturdays, but it seems weird to me that they're adding service to the general Plainview area on Saturday, but they don't have Sunday service or midday service. 

One of the things that irked me when the n54 used to run to LIRR Amityville is that the B/Os used to crawl and have to wait at Sunrise Mall....which is uncharacteristic of NICE, which is known for its lead-foot B/Os. It would be nice if they still had that connection, but I guess having both the n54/55 end at Sunrise made it easier to interline and whatnot.

[B35 via Church]

When you have bus drivers having to drive to a relief point by way of a company provided vehicle (blue-gray Ford Escape's... not that it matters), it's a wonder why SCT is talking about cutting 19 bus routes.... They have "Suffolk Transportation" inscribed on them, if you look close enough... I saw a whopping {5} of them lined up at the bus loop at LIRR Ronkonkoma.... They're suggesting cutting all bus service to LIRR Ronkonkoma - I seldom ever believe in coincidences & this isn't a case that would qualify as an anomaly AFAIC.....

....and the number of buses I took today, where I was 1 of less than 4 passengers from end to end.... Ooof

One example: Being that the farebox was broken/malfunctioned on #7101 (a minibus), I literally got personally shuttled for free between Whitman Mall & LIRR Babylon on the S29 (4pm trip)..... Not good man, not good at all.....

[Lex]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

When you have bus drivers having to drive to a relief point by way of a company provided vehicle (blue-gray Ford Escape's... not that it matters), it's a wonder why SCT is talking about cutting 19 bus routes.... They have "Suffolk Transportation" inscribed on them, if you look close enough... I saw a whopping {5} of them lined up at the bus loop at LIRR Ronkonkoma.... They're suggesting cutting all bus service to LIRR Ronkonkoma - I seldom ever believe in coincidences & this isn't a case that would qualify as an anomaly AFAIC.....

....and the number of buses I took today, where I was 1 of less than 4 passengers from end to end.... Ooof

One example: Being that the farebox was broken/malfunctioned on #7101 (a minibus), I literally got personally shuttled for free between Whitman Mall & LIRR Babylon on the S29 (4pm trip)..... Not good man, not good at all.....

It really makes you wonder who's making the decisions.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

It really makes you wonder who's making the decisions.

Honestly.

Even if system-wide patronage has been dropping rather rapidly over the past couple years, I figured there had to be something more to all these minibuses being thrown on all these routes.... I mean, on top of the (transit) fleet, I wonder just how many of these company vehicles there are total (county-wide), where b/o's are doing all this driving to get to relief points.... Yesterday, I saw 5 of them at LIRR Ronkonkoma, 1 of them at LIRR Patchogue, and 2 of them at Coram Plaza... Now IDK how they use to handle driver changes in the past, but this (or at least the sheer magnitude of it) is definitely something new.....

If you've never rode SCT before & saw the way they were lined up at LIRR Ronkonkoma yesterday (afternoon), you'd have thought there was some sort of ongoing police investigation or something....

[DS4Ever]

Ok I can understand the eliminations of the aforementioned routes but I disagree with the s54 s62 and 10c why?I'll make the reason by routes:

s54: this route is very very important as it is the only route to go from WW Mall to Hauppauge some residents from Hicksville and country road take the n79 and transfer to the s54 to ride it to Hauppauge...also it is the only route to ride from Hauppauge to Patchogue...so in my opinion is a huge NAY...the s54 is staying and should the s54 be eliminated then extend the s58 to WW Mall and have it ride from Smith Haven Mall to Hauppauge and Commack with a 3 hour headway as the next route to be mentioned will be supplemented by the s58 bus route.

 

s62: now this is a tricky route since from Monday to Friday it does the full route but weekend it goes as far west as Smith Haven Mall...now I disagree with this route since while yeah it is true it gets half the riders than the s58 I can admit that since I've ridden that route many times but don't forget it is the only route to go from Port Jefferson to Smith Haven Mall and Riverhead...the Hauppauge segment can be replaced by an extension of the route 3D from Hauppauge to Smith Haven Mall OR a detoured s58 route although the former is much more better than the latter but you can't eliminate the s62 and if so take what I've mentioned as plan B routes.

 

10C: OK now this is another tricky route since the 10C is the ONLY SCT bus east of East Hampton and thus the only route in Montauk...i don't think it should be eliminated I mean sufficient having it run every 3 hours but don't eliminate it as it is a feeder route for the already LONG s92 bus...the 10c was created since the s92 is a VERY long route at 110 km in length....having it the s92 extended towards Montauk should the 10c be scrapped it would have a total route length of over 130 km...to put this length in perspective the s92 route will have the same length distance between Orient Point and Montauk as the same as from New York City (Manhattan Midtown) to Philadelphia at a flat fare of $2.25 one way trip it will also be the longest local bus route in the northeast USA ad it will surpass the NJT 317 as the longest local bus line of the aforementioned USA region.

[DS4Ever]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:28 PM, QM1to6Ave said:

The S69 gets 3 riders per day?? I'm not misreading that? How has that route existed this long?

Exactly so they eliminated the s71 and s90 and both these buses got in my personal experience a total of 9 passengers (probably between 11-13 since I got off way before the northern terminal) and 6 passengers respectively