What if the Bronx redesign had a Rush style redesign?

[MysteriousBtrain]

As the Queens redesign gets closer to implementation, one thing I thought would be interesting is the idea of how much different the Bronx redesign might be if they was the ones to implement Rush routes first. Here's the changes in the system I had in mind in the style of the Queens and Brooklyn Bus redesign:

Bx1 Limited: all current stops; but added Sunday Limited service from 10AM-6PM similar to Saturday service, evening local service

Bx7 Rush: limited stops south of 225 St (requires expanded Bx20 or M100 extension) or 207 St, stopping only at 191 St, 181 St, GWB bus terminal and 168 St. Local replacement: M100 and/or Bx20

Bx21 Rush: Selected stops on 3 Av only, stopping at 138 St, 148 St, Westchester Av/150 St, and 163 St. Local replacement: Bx2/15

Bx22 Rush: it can either be nonstop from Bronx Park East or Southern Blvd all the way to 3 Av. Local replacement: Bx12

Bx26 Rush: service would be provided at least during peak hours on Allerton Av, evening and weekend service all stops. Nonstop between Bartow Av and Boston Rd, with only one stop at Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx25

Bx28 Limited: would be only making select stops on Gun Hill Road during weekdays, evening and weekend service all stops. Limited stops between Bainbridge Av and Bartow Av, including Webster Av, White Plains Rd, Bronxwood Av, Boston Rd, Gun Hill Road , and Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx38

Bx40 Limited: Daily limited stops from approximately 6AM-9PM weekdays and 7:30AM-8PM weekends between Grand concourse and Bruckner Blvd. Limited stops include Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, Southern Blvd, Morris Park, Unionport Rd, Castle Hill Av, and Westchester Av. Local replacement: Bx42

Other proposals that require significant changes:

Bx11 Rush: Requires an extension of the Bx18 to freeman St to be used as a local variant of the Bx11, not including any chance that would need to be done due to the Bx18A/B split. Service could also be under a new separate Bx51 local between 170 St and Freeman St. Bx11 rush stops would be between St Nicholas Av and 174 St , including 170 St and , Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, and Louis None Bl/Boston Rd. Local replacements: Bx35, Bx18/51, Bx21

Bx12 service split: This would turn the Bx12 into 3 separate routes from the current 4 branches (including the Orchard branch). The Bx12 SBS would remain unchanged, a new Bx14 designation would be introduced replacing the Bx12 Local (mimicking the proposed Q5/115), and a new Bx52 rush route would be introduced to supplement the Bx12 SBS. The Bx52 would make all stops west of Jerome Av. East of Jerome Av, stops would only be at Fordham Plaza, White Plains Rd, Eastchester Rd/Jacobi Medical, and Pelham Bay. All missed stops would be served by the Bx12/14. During summer months, service would be extended to Orchard Beach. Service to Orchard Beach could possibly be supplemented by the Bx14, but to simplify designations, it makes more sense for orchard beach to only use the Bx52. 

Bx19 Local/Bx49 Rush: a proposed Bx19 split, with the Bx19 ending at Bronx terminal Market instead of going to Manhattan and the Bx49 Rush operating between Riverbank Park and West Farms at Southern Blvd/Westchester Av or near Whitlock Av . Bx49 makes all stop in Manhattan, with proposed Bronx Stops at Grand Concourse, 3 Av, Prospect Av/Southern Blvd, Hunts Point Av, and the above West Farms stops

Bx9 Local/Bx59 SBS: another proposed split route, with no Bx19 east of Fordham Plaza and the Bx59 making select stops between Marble Hill and West Farms. Stops include Marble Hill Av/W 230 St, W 225 St/Broadway, Jerome Av, 3 Av/Fordham Plaza, Southern Blvd/E 183 St, E 180 St/Crotona Pkwy, and West Farms .  Local service would be available via the Bx9, Bx12, Bx19, and Bx42.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

10 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

As the Queens redesign gets closer to implementation, one thing I thought would be interesting is the idea of how much different the Bronx redesign might be if they was the ones to implement Rush routes first. Here's the changes in the system I had in mind in the style of the Queens and Brooklyn Bus redesign:

Bx1 Limited: all current stops; but added Sunday Limited service from 10AM-6PM similar to Saturday service, evening local service

Bx7 Rush: limited stops south of 225 St (requires expanded Bx20 or M100 extension) or 207 St, stopping only at 191 St, 181 St, GWB bus terminal and 168 St. Local replacement: M100 and/or Bx20

Bx21 Rush: Selected stops on 3 Av only, stopping at 138 St, 148 St, Westchester Av/150 St, and 163 St. Local replacement: Bx2/15

Bx22 Rush: it can either be nonstop from Bronx Park East or Southern Blvd all the way to 3 Av. Local replacement: Bx12

Bx26 Rush: service would be provided at least during peak hours on Allerton Av, evening and weekend service all stops. Nonstop between Bartow Av and Boston Rd, with only one stop at Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx25

Bx28 Limited: would be only making select stops on Gun Hill Road during weekdays, evening and weekend service all stops. Limited stops between Bainbridge Av and Bartow Av, including Webster Av, White Plains Rd, Bronxwood Av, Boston Rd, Gun Hill Road , and Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx38

Bx40 Limited: Daily limited stops from approximately 6AM-9PM weekdays and 7:30AM-8PM weekends between Grand concourse and Bruckner Blvd. Limited stops include Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, Southern Blvd, Morris Park, Unionport Rd, Castle Hill Av, and Westchester Av. Local replacement: Bx42

Other proposals that require significant changes:

Bx11 Rush: Requires an extension of the Bx18 to freeman St to be used as a local variant of the Bx11, not including any chance that would need to be done due to the Bx18A/B split. Service could also be under a new separate Bx51 local between 170 St and Freeman St. Bx11 rush stops would be between St Nicholas Av and 174 St , including 170 St and , Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, and Louis None Bl/Boston Rd. Local replacements: Bx35, Bx18/51, Bx21

Bx12 service split: This would turn the Bx12 into 3 separate routes from the current 4 branches (including the Orchard branch). The Bx12 SBS would remain unchanged, a new Bx14 designation would be introduced replacing the Bx12 Local (mimicking the proposed Q5/115), and a new Bx52 rush route would be introduced to supplement the Bx12 SBS. The Bx52 would make all stops west of Jerome Av. East of Jerome Av, stops would only be at Fordham Plaza, White Plains Rd, Eastchester Rd/Jacobi Medical, and Pelham Bay. All missed stops would be served by the Bx12/14. During summer months, service would be extended to Orchard Beach. Service to Orchard Beach could possibly be supplemented by the Bx14, but to simplify designations, it makes more sense for orchard beach to only use the Bx52. 

Bx19 Local/Bx49 Rush: a proposed Bx19 split, with the Bx19 ending at Bronx terminal Market instead of going to Manhattan and the Bx49 Rush operating between Riverbank Park and West Farms at Southern Blvd/Westchester Av or near Whitlock Av . Bx49 makes all stop in Manhattan, with proposed Bronx Stops at Grand Concourse, 3 Av, Prospect Av/Southern Blvd, Hunts Point Av, and the above West Farms stops

Bx9 Local/Bx59 SBS: another proposed split route, with no Bx19 east of Fordham Plaza and the Bx59 making select stops between Marble Hill and West Farms. Stops include Marble Hill Av/W 230 St, W 225 St/Broadway, Jerome Av, 3 Av/Fordham Plaza, Southern Blvd/E 183 St, E 180 St/Crotona Pkwy, and West Farms .  Local service would be available via the Bx9, Bx12, Bx19, and Bx42.

 

The main drawback to splitting routes into Local and Rush variants is that there wouldn't be enough service at local stops.  My twists are as follows:

 

Bx7:  Keep as a Local route, but restructure to absorb Bx20. Add a few trips on weekdays, then alternate between Bx7 (direct) and Bx7A (via Kappock Street).

Bx9:  No need to split. 

Bx12:  Keep as is. Splitting among 4 variants would lead to too many forced transfers and not enough service at local stops. SBS "demoted" back to Ltd once OMNY is fully rolled out with all-door boarding.

Bx19/Bx49 split: Bx19 Local would use Bx46 path in Hunts Point. Bx46 discontinued.

Bx21 Rush:  Would have to add Bx15 Local trips to provide enough service at local stops. (Then again, Bx15LTD saves almost zero running time. Maybe run everything local.)

Bx28LTD/Bx38Local:  Would have to add Bx38 trips to provide enough service at local stops.

Bx40LTD/Bx42Local:  Would have to add Bx42 trips to provide enough service at local stops.

 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Given that The Bronx isn't as deprived of subway service like Queens parts of Brooklyn are, I honestly don't really see where any of those "rush" routes would work. Most areas in The Bronx just aren't that far from the subway like that. Of the few areas where you could make a case, the frequencies/service levels or service structure just doesn't make it ideal for implementing a rush route of sorts. The most I could see improving frequencies and/or making additional limited-stop routes. 

With the Bronx Bus Redesign, I don't take issue that they didn't include those "rush" routes, it's that it was incredibly watered down and largely maintained the same system in place. Sure there were a few changes here and there that weren't terrible, but there were also some changes which negated those more positive changes. 

Regarding the Bx12, I think one of the main issues outside the reliability and frequently packed (SBS) buses, is that the local doesn't do enough. Pelham Bay and Sedgwick Avenue are both stubs for the route, with only the latter being a convenient enough turnaround. They should do something with the Bx12 local on one (or both of the ends) to make it more useful if they insist on having only the SBS serving Inwood and Bay Plaza during the day.  

[Q43LTD]

I have a feeling may not do the same for Manhattan or Staten Island. This whole rush, LTD, local and SBS/crosstown bit

[MysteriousBtrain]

8 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

I have a feeling may not do the same for Manhattan or Staten Island. This whole rush, LTD, local and SBS/crosstown bit

I feel for Staten Island, it won't be (exactly) the same, just most limiteds turning into rush routes if that makes sense. Most route basically run in that matter, but the S93 may stay a Limited for stops sake.

[NBTA]

I really like the concept, I’m gonna create some plans for the other boroughs that are awaiting redesigns. (You should rename this to what if Rush/limited redesigns were in every borough, or something like that)

[checkmatechamp13]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:04 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Bx7:  Keep as a Local route, but restructure to absorb Bx20. Add a few trips on weekdays, then alternate between Bx7 (direct) and Bx7A (via Kappock Street).

I think the general Bx7/10/20 structure works well. The Bx10 can handle any Spuyten Duyvil riders heading north of 246th Street, and the Bx7 acts as the direct link from the northern section of Riverdale down to the subway. Adding the "A" branch would cause imbalanced spacing on either one end or the other (the Manhattan end or the Riverdale end). 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think the general Bx7/10/20 structure works well. The Bx10 can handle any Spuyten Duyvil riders heading north of 246th Street, and the Bx7 acts as the direct link from the northern section of Riverdale down to the subway. Adding the "A" branch would cause imbalanced spacing on either one end or the other (the Manhattan end or the Riverdale end). 

I agree about the imbalance. I would keep the branches "blended" along Broadway in both directions.  Or maybe forget about "blending" and schedule the branches individually (compare with M14A/M14D).

[B35 via Church]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:51 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

As the Queens redesign gets closer to implementation, one thing I thought would be interesting is the idea of how much different the Bronx redesign might be if they was the ones to implement Rush routes first. Here's the changes in the system I had in mind in the style of the Queens and Brooklyn Bus redesign:

Bx1 Limited: all current stops; but added Sunday Limited service from 10AM-6PM similar to Saturday service, evening local service

Bx7 Rush: limited stops south of 225 St (requires expanded Bx20 or M100 extension) or 207 St, stopping only at 191 St, 181 St, GWB bus terminal and 168 St. Local replacement: M100 and/or Bx20

Bx21 Rush: Selected stops on 3 Av only, stopping at 138 St, 148 St, Westchester Av/150 St, and 163 St. Local replacement: Bx2/15

Bx22 Rush: it can either be nonstop from Bronx Park East or Southern Blvd all the way to 3 Av. Local replacement: Bx12

Bx26 Rush: service would be provided at least during peak hours on Allerton Av, evening and weekend service all stops. Nonstop between Bartow Av and Boston Rd, with only one stop at Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx25

Bx28 Limited: would be only making select stops on Gun Hill Road during weekdays, evening and weekend service all stops. Limited stops between Bainbridge Av and Bartow Av, including Webster Av, White Plains Rd, Bronxwood Av, Boston Rd, Gun Hill Road , and Eastchester Rd. Local replacement: Bx38

Bx40 Limited: Daily limited stops from approximately 6AM-9PM weekdays and 7:30AM-8PM weekends between Grand concourse and Bruckner Blvd. Limited stops include Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, Southern Blvd, Morris Park, Unionport Rd, Castle Hill Av, and Westchester Av. Local replacement: Bx42

- To have the Bx20 or the M100 extended for the sake of implementing a Bx7 rush route, sounds counterproductive.... I wouldn't trust the MTA to extend the M100 any further north, while still having Bx7's running down to Washington Heights.

- I honestly don't think the Bx21 needs a skip-stop service.... Long, drawn out routes like it & the Bx8 simply don't carry enough.

- I don't necessarily disagree with having the Bx22 serve less stops b/w Fordham Plaza & Bronx Park East/Pelham Pkwy.... I don't see why it has to be labeled a rush route though... Just have stops be eliminated b/w that stretch & be done with it.

- Even if I thought Allerton warranted a rush route, I'd do it with the Bx25 over that of the Bx26... The very existence of the Bx25 yielded the Bx26 from end to end being sped up... The Bx26 already spends less time in Co-op than the Bx25 does.

On 12/23/2023 at 8:51 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

Other proposals that require significant changes:

Bx11 Rush: Requires an extension of the Bx18 to freeman St to be used as a local variant of the Bx11, not including any chance that would need to be done due to the Bx18A/B split. Service could also be under a new separate Bx51 local between 170 St and Freeman St. Bx11 rush stops would be between St Nicholas Av and 174 St , including 170 St and , Webster Av, 3 Av, Crotona Av, and Louis None Bl/Boston Rd. Local replacements: Bx35, Bx18/51, Bx21

Bx12 service split: This would turn the Bx12 into 3 separate routes from the current 4 branches (including the Orchard branch). The Bx12 SBS would remain unchanged, a new Bx14 designation would be introduced replacing the Bx12 Local (mimicking the proposed Q5/115), and a new Bx52 rush route would be introduced to supplement the Bx12 SBS. The Bx52 would make all stops west of Jerome Av. East of Jerome Av, stops would only be at Fordham Plaza, White Plains Rd, Eastchester Rd/Jacobi Medical, and Pelham Bay. All missed stops would be served by the Bx12/14. During summer months, service would be extended to Orchard Beach. Service to Orchard Beach could possibly be supplemented by the Bx14, but to simplify designations, it makes more sense for orchard beach to only use the Bx52. 

Bx19 Local/Bx49 Rush: a proposed Bx19 split, with the Bx19 ending at Bronx terminal Market instead of going to Manhattan and the Bx49 Rush operating between Riverbank Park and West Farms at Southern Blvd/Westchester Av or near Whitlock Av . Bx49 makes all stop in Manhattan, with proposed Bronx Stops at Grand Concourse, 3 Av, Prospect Av/Southern Blvd, Hunts Point Av, and the above West Farms stops

Bx9 Local/Bx59 SBS: another proposed split route, with no Bx19 east of Fordham Plaza and the Bx59 making select stops between Marble Hill and West Farms. Stops include Marble Hill Av/W 230 St, W 225 St/Broadway, Jerome Av, 3 Av/Fordham Plaza, Southern Blvd/E 183 St, E 180 St/Crotona Pkwy, and West Farms .  Local service would be available via the Bx9, Bx12, Bx19, and Bx42.

- Today's Bx11 is solid; I wouldn't change a thing... To extend the Bx18 to (whatever) station to have the Bx11 be turned into a rush route, I don't see being worth it.... The expansion of the Bx18 yielded in the speeding up of the current Bx11... Even though the current Bx11 covers more territory now, it still moves at a better pace than the prior rendition of the Bx11....

- I would look into combining the "Bx14" & the "Bx52".... The SBS doesn't need a supplement, the locals need to be more of a complement!

- Quite frankly, I would revert the prior Bx15 (Manhattanville - Fordham Plaza) to have the Bx19 split instead.... The northern split would run Bronx Zoo - Bronx Gateway Mall (or, Bronx Terminal Market as it's called now), while the southern split would run Riverbank Park - Millbrook houses (via 149th & via St. Ann's).... Both would be local routes.... I'm not seeing what rationale there is for a rush route to/from Manhattan along the Bx19.... Seems to me like you're using the rush route concept & that of LTD service interchangeably....

- This is confusing.... What exactly is it that you have the Bx9 doing? And where exactly do you have the northern split of the Bx19 (your "Bx19") ending at, if you're saying "with no Bx19 east of Fordham Plaza"?

[B35 via Church]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:22 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I think the general Bx7/10/20 structure works well. The Bx10 can handle any Spuyten Duyvil riders heading north of 246th Street, and the Bx7 acts as the direct link from the northern section of Riverdale down to the subway. Adding the "A" branch would cause imbalanced spacing on either one end or the other (the Manhattan end or the Riverdale end). 

The old idea involving the Bx20 across the differing NYC transit based discussion forums (back when it had off-peak service) was always to have it run up to Mt. St. Vincent with the Bx7 & the Bx10.... Never cared for the idea.

While I never brought this up back then (because I wasn't that adamant about extending the thing either way), I always thought that if the Bx20 were to be extended to make it more useful / have it make more of a difference, it should've been done so from the opposite end of the route... In other words, instead of suggesting running Bx20's to run b/w Mt. St. Vincent & 207th , I always thought having the Bx20 running b/w 168th & 246th made more sense from a growth standpoint... There were always too many Bx7's & Bx10's up at Mt. St. Vincent, so to have had Bx20's running up there would've exacerbated the problem... At the same time, having Bx20's and Bx7's share the pain (so to speak) b/w 168th & 231st would've significantly had Bx7 service being cut into - as this was around the time before the M100 got diverted off Broadway b/w Dyckman & 215th....

So to close this out, two things I've always wondered about, regarding the Bx20, is how would things pan out (again, back when it ran during off peak hours):

1. If it & the Bx7 had a complementary relationship between 168th & 246th
2. If it served "the other side" of Riverdale... Basically wondering if there's much of any demand to/from the from along the Bx9's portion in Riverdale.

Note: Nothing mentioned above, are actual suggestions I'm making.

Note #2: I don't really have a problem with the structure/relationship across the 3 routes - But at the same time, IDC for the Bx20 being relegated to a peak only route either.

[The TransitMan]

I would leave the Bx7 alone. Can't see the Bx7 "Rush" along Broadway especially through Washington Heights. I can walk faster than the Bx7 along Broadway in Washington Heights.