Length of shortened subway trains in the past, especially in the 1980 to 1995 era...

[Goldeneye]

I remember starting in the 1980s or so that they ran shortened trains outside the rush hours.

For example, I remember  (possibly  also) being six-car consists sometime between 1980 and 1995 or so.

Does anyone remember the full list of the non-shuttle lines that had non-full trains (I already know was capped at 8-car 60's or 6-car 75's)

PS - I am surprised there is not a brown circle M bullet for some strange reason (there is a diamond brown M though).
 

[CenSin]

28 minutes ago, Goldeneye said:

PS - I am surprised there is not a brown circle M bullet for some strange reason (there is a diamond brown M though).

They retroactively retconned the code to be orange. That means every prior discussion about the brown  is now orange.

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

They retroactively retconned the code to be orange. That means every prior discussion about the brown  is now orange.

What is weirder is the old teal  logo is there. 

[Wallyhorse]

I remember back in 1980 or so the used to be a half-length train (five cars) middays.  The old  would often be four cars then for example. 

[Trainmaster5]

On 4/7/2024 at 6:14 PM, Wallyhorse said:

I remember back in 1980 or so the used to be a half-length train (five cars) middays.  The old  would often be four cars then for example. 

I think you better check your statement about the midday  . The train ran from Dyre to Atlantic Avenue midday alternating with the  from Woodlawn. Both lines ran 10 car trains. I was stationed at Atlantic Avenue frequently in the early Eighties by the crew office daily. I can tell you that the  ran 5 cars on the midnights from VCP to the ferry because I was assigned there to cut the 10 car trains to 5+5 a few times. I also know that the  train ran 4 car trains middays out to Euclid in the mid eighties. 
Finally I had a job on Sunday nights on the  from New Lots to 241 Stb and WPR. We ran 5 cars on that interval and the train was cut in the station , not the yard, at New Lots. 
Back then we had signals that alerted the M/M if there  any cars in the station as you approached. Just a few things that I observed over the years. The only time that I left Dyre on the  with less than 10 cars was Thanksgiving Day 1988 which was the last holiday I ever worked 😁. I had 6 cars. Carry on.

[Lawrence St]

7 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think you better check your statement about the midday  . The train ran from Dyre to Atlantic Avenue midday alternating with the  from Woodlawn. Both lines ran 10 car trains. I was stationed at Atlantic Avenue frequently in the early Eighties by the crew office daily. I can tell you that the  ran 5 cars on the midnights from VCP to the ferry because I was assigned there to cut the 10 car trains to 5+5 a few times. I also know that the  train ran 4 car trains middays out to Euclid in the mid eighties. 
Finally I had a job on Sunday nights on the  from New Lots to 241 Stb and WPR. We ran 5 cars on that interval and the train was cut in the station , not the yard, at New Lots. 
Back then we had signals that alerted the M/M if there  any cars in the station as you approached. Just a few things that I observed over the years. The only time that I left Dyre on the  with less than 10 cars was Thanksgiving Day 1988 which was the last holiday I ever worked 😁. I had 6 cars. Carry on.

So why is the  and Lefferts Shuttle  the only remaining services to use five car sets late nights?

Would it not save money to just keep them as 10 car sets?

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So why is the  and Lefferts Shuttle  the only remaining services to use five car sets late nights?

Would it not save money to just keep them as 10 car sets?

OPTO. The costs would go up with more cars out for longer and having a conductor working the line instead of having the train operator do double-duty with a shortened train which is done on those shuttles and weekend  trains.

[Lawrence St]

20 minutes ago, Kingsbridgeviewer382 said:

OPTO. The costs would go up with more cars out for longer and having a conductor working the line instead of having the train operator do double-duty with a shortened train which is done on those shuttles and weekend  trains.

Um, dosent the Rockaway shuttle on summer weekends run opto?

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Um, dosent the Rockaway shuttle on summer weekends run opto?

It's a full-length train for the Rockaway Park shuttle during the summer (Both train op and conductor present) unlike normal Shuttle service where it's a 5-car OPTO operation.

[Kamen Rider]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Um, dosent the Rockaway shuttle on summer weekends run opto?

nope. In fact, that was one of my first gigs out of school car. 

 

That being said, the reasoning between then and now is completely different. Then was about equipment availability and safety. Today it's just about not having my middle of the train butt around yet keeping within the contract. 

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think you better check your statement about the midday  . The train ran from Dyre to Atlantic Avenue midday alternating with the  from Woodlawn. Both lines ran 10 car trains. I was stationed at Atlantic Avenue frequently in the early Eighties by the crew office daily. I can tell you that the  ran 5 cars on the midnights from VCP to the ferry because I was assigned there to cut the 10 car trains to 5+5 a few times. I also know that the  train ran 4 car trains middays out to Euclid in the mid eighties. 
Finally I had a job on Sunday nights on the  from New Lots to 241 Stb and WPR. We ran 5 cars on that interval and the train was cut in the station , not the yard, at New Lots. 
Back then we had signals that alerted the M/M if there  any cars in the station as you approached. Just a few things that I observed over the years. The only time that I left Dyre on the  with less than 10 cars was Thanksgiving Day 1988 which was the last holiday I ever worked 😁. I had 6 cars. Carry on.

I actually rode a few  trains that were shortened, especially doing messenger work in 1980-'81 when I believe they were really short on trains due to many of them being unavailable for service.  Most of those trains were five cars.  This was before and after the infamous day in January 1981 when one-third of the entire fleet was unavailable due to cars having issues. 

[FLX9304]

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So why is the  and Lefferts Shuttle  the only remaining services to use five car sets late nights?

Would it not save money to just keep them as 10 car sets?

Passenger volume is less during overnights 

[FLX9304]

The shortening of lengths go way back to the mid to late 1970s and it follows during off peak hours on evenings, nights and weekends: 

,  & : 5 cars 

: 8 cars 

: 6 cars 

: 8 cars 

: 4 R44 cars and 6 R38 cars

: 4 cars at all times except peak and nights 

, , ,  {6th Ave Local from 57th St}: 8 cars 

, : 4 cars R46 

, , : 4 cars 

All other subway lines did not operate. 
the  & all  lines are normal

 

Edited April 9 by FLX9304

[FLX9304]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

I actually rode a few  trains that were shortened, especially doing messenger work in 1980-'81 when I believe they were really short on trains due to many of them being unavailable for service.  Most of those trains were five cars.  This was before and after the infamous day in January 1981 when one-third of the entire fleet was unavailable due to cars having issues. 

So many breakdowns, especially on the R17/21/22 cars. Many of these cars has massive flats. I lived to see a train being taking out of service because of flats. R21 7156 on the  was a problem and a half! It was good for 3 stops: (174th to Simpson), but after it, the train pulled hard, causing the trune wheels to break, then it ran from Simpson all the way to 149th St-GC before the motorman discharged everybody off. That whole time, I heard the dispatcher saying discharge at 149th St, and take the train to the Concourse Yard, so the train went oos carrying that car plus 7561+8924-8925+7140+7553+9014-9015+9032-9033. The train reversed and stayed on the middle track on the  to BPB. 

[Trainmaster5]

13 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I actually rode a few  trains that were shortened, especially doing messenger work in 1980-'81 when I believe they were really short on trains due to many of them being unavailable for service.  Most of those trains were five cars.  This was before and after the infamous day in January 1981 when one-third of the entire fleet was unavailable due to cars having issues. 

Although I was unaware of the 5 car occurrences on the  I’m well aware of the breakdown problems in the IRT back then. Trains breaking down, catching fire, going dead, etc. I remember leaving New Lots on a  headed towards my job at Lenox . Got to Grand Army Plaza and an announcement was made about a train delay at Chambers and no service past Nevins. I transferred to a  at Atlantic Avenue and rode to 145th Street and walked to Lenox Terminal and jumped ahead to make a s/b to Flatbush. Heading n/b we got to Atlantic Avenue and then Command Center told us  to take our 9 car(  train up Lexington Avenue to the Concourse. We encountered NO delays (because riders were smarter back then)) compared to today’s folks in my opinion. I definitely agree with you about the unreliability of service back then. Every day was an adventure in that era and, IMO, things didn’t get much better until the MK Redbirds were introduced to supplement the R62/62A class of cars. I was part of the Lenox Division in those days which limited me to the  ,  ,  lines. From what I remember the  and  weren’t much better in those days. It never entered my mind that you were that ancient 😃. Carry on.

 

 

 

[Wallyhorse]

12 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

The shortening of lengths go way back to the mid to late 1970s and it follows during off peak hours on evenings, nights and weekends: 

,  & : 5 cars 

: 8 cars 

: 6 cars 

: 8 cars 

: 4 R44 cars and 6 R38 cars

: 4 cars at all times except peak and nights 

, , ,  {6th Ave Local from 57th St}: 8 cars 

, : 4 cars R46 

, , : 4 cars 

All other subway lines did not operate. 
the  & all  lines are normal

Yep!  That is EXACTLY how it was.  The  often was six cars on weekends as I remember going to Shea for Mets games then. 

Also, the  was six cars during rush hours.  

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

We encountered NO delays (because riders were smarter back then)) compared to today’s folks in my opinion.

A very chatty conductor over the weekend on the  griped about this loud and clear during his train announcement at Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center going southbound. He had been making announcements the entire time from 34 Street–Herald Square (where I got on), while the train was in the station and as the train was in between stations.

After one of the passengers got off the train and walked up to the conductor to ask a—presumably—very stupid question which had already been answered for the past 15 minutes of droning announcements, the conductor made a very public speech about learning to pay attention—to the amusement of everyone else who wasn’t that idiot.

[LTA1992]

11 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

We encountered NO delays (because riders were smarter back then)) compared to today’s folks in my opinion.

 

I mean, that's pretty easy to do when ridership dropped to levels not seen since 1910....

[Trainmaster5]

11 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

I mean, that's pretty easy to do when ridership dropped to levels not seen since 1910....

Read the post above yours again. While we’re at it let me tell you something we were taught on the first day of school car. The motor instructor, a former Marine Corps drill instructor, told us that people were getting dumber by the year and he wasn’t only talking about New Yorkers. He questioned how immigrants from Europe after WWII and poorly educated transplants from the South could navigate the transit system on trains without PA systems yet the so-called intelligent New Yorkers were often confused. He said the trick was platform signage and the marker lights on the trains. COLOR was the great equalizer. As he pointed out the sight and hearing impaired people seemed to have more knowledge than the other passengers had. This is the first two days of  Conductors school car. He and his 3 partners quizzed all thirty of us about neighborhoods, railroads, subways and buses we were familiar with. I was exempt from most of those discussions because I had a bus and train pass since before JFK was elected and I was also a provisional RR Porter for a year. Heck, I rode or worked on many lines that had been demolished by then. The one thing that all 4 motor instructors instilled in us was that the Conductor was in charge of the train and the passengers. The drill instructor also said that people were getting so dumb over the years that one of the duties of future Conductors was to walk the riders home to their front doors because otherwise they would get lost. My classmates and I would laugh about those things until I was a Motorman on a rerouted  train headed s/b to Flatbush at Times Square. Never mind that the  to the ‘ Bush regularly stopped at the same station and track and we were headed to the same terminal many folks would not board my train. Despite my C/Rs announcements and those of the station PA the dispatcher told us to close up and leave the clueless people behind. We were all taught to treat the passengers with dignity and respect but after that experience and those that followed I tried to keep my distance from the general public. My own experience. You’re entitled to your own opinion. No hard feelings. Carry on.
 
 

 

 

[darkstar8983]

33 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Read the post above yours again. While we’re at it let me tell you something we were taught on the first day of school car. The motor instructor, a former Marine Corps drill instructor, told us that people were getting dumber by the year and he wasn’t only talking about New Yorkers. He questioned how immigrants from Europe after WWII and poorly educated transplants from the South could navigate the transit system on trains without PA systems yet the so-called intelligent New Yorkers were often confused. He said the trick was platform signage and the marker lights on the trains. COLOR was the great equalizer. As he pointed out the sight and hearing impaired people seemed to have more knowledge than the other passengers had. This is the first two days of  Conductors school car. He and his 3 partners quizzed all thirty of us about neighborhoods, railroads, subways and buses we were familiar with. I was exempt from most of those discussions because I had a bus and train pass since before JFK was elected and I was also a provisional RR Porter for a year. Heck, I rode or worked on many lines that had been demolished by then. The one thing that all 4 motor instructors instilled in us was that the Conductor was in charge of the train and the passengers. The drill instructor also said that people were getting so dumb over the years that one of the duties of future Conductors was to walk the riders home to their front doors because otherwise they would get lost. My classmates and I would laugh about those things until I was a Motorman on a rerouted  train headed s/b to Flatbush at Times Square. Never mind that the  to the ‘ Bush regularly stopped at the same station and track and we were headed to the same terminal many folks would not board my train. Despite my C/Rs announcements and those of the station PA the dispatcher told us to close up and leave the clueless people behind. We were all taught to treat the passengers with dignity and respect but after that experience and those that followed I tried to keep my distance from the general public. My own experience. You’re entitled to your own opinion. No hard feelings. Carry on.
 
 

 

 

Yeah when there are very invasive train reroutes in which a train that normally doesn’t travel through a corridor arrives and runs to the same destination as another train route, people just won’t get on. Classic examples:

 via Crosstown (makes identical  stops the entire way)

 switcheroo (  via Lexington or  via 7 Av)

[CenSin]

9 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

 via Crosstown (makes identical  stops the entire way)

 switcheroo (  via Lexington or  via 7 Av)

The best answer to a passenger who doesn’t look like a tourist or out-of-towner: “is it physically possible for this train to go anywhere else except X?” (where X is usually a station a few stops away along an isolated R.O.W.)

Like… you wouldn’t board a  at New Lots Avenue and ask if it would go to Utica Avenue. The topology of the system all but guarantees it.

An  at Nassau Avenue? Where else could it possibly go in any direction? These are things—Markov chains or decision processes—that are learned through osmosis. A passenger who pays attention day-to-day learns these relationships and probabilities passively—no secret track map required.

Edited April 11 by CenSin

[Kamen Rider]

People don’t grasp the topology of the system because of many reasons; most notably the popular media trope that the system is much larger than it actually is, with miles and miles of abandoned tunnels. Or that connections exist where there are none. 
 

we have to be mindful that not everything that seems common to us is common to everyone else.

I am a digital native. I grew up around computers and technology. Issues that are common sense fixes to me might as well be magic to my grandparents generation…

we are “subway natives”… some of us could probably draw the track maps from memory…

we know where everything thing is. 
the average person does not.

[Teban54]

4 hours ago, CenSin said:

The best answer to a passenger who doesn’t look like a tourist or out-of-towner: “is it physically possible for this train to go anywhere else except X?” (where X is usually a station a few stops away along an isolated R.O.W.)

Like… you wouldn’t board a  at New Lots Avenue and ask if it would go to Utica Avenue. The topology of the system all but guarantees it.

An  at Nassau Avenue? Where else could it possibly go in any direction? These are things—Markov chains or decision processes—that are learned through osmosis. A passenger who pays attention day-to-day learns these relationships and probabilities passively—no secret track map required.

I mean, does an average passenger really know this? How can they know, for example, that the Crosstown tracks aren't connected to the IRT or BMT systems in downtown Brooklyn (which may be perceived as being possible for the rerouted  to use), or that they aren't even connected to Jay St-MetroTech so that the rerouted  train can't be heading towards York St and back to Manhattan? (On the Queens side, they may also not know whether it's possible for the  to make a turn from Queens Plaza to 21 St-Queensbridge, or whether the only destination possible is Jamaica-179, but that's less relevant since a would terminate at Court Sq anyway.)

Coming back to the  example at Times Sq, if they're unfamiliar with the system and such reroutes, someone going to Clark St can legitimately believe that the rerouted  train will switch back to the  after Fulton St, via an imaginary track connection that doesn't actually exist (but they don't know that). Somebody going to Grand Army Plaza may believe the train will switch back to Eastern Pkwy Express at Atlantic-Barclays, where a switch to do so actually exists.

We know that even a lot of railfans making deinterlining proposals make mistakes about which track connections exist and which do not, and people commenting on them can make the same mistakes. With some proposals swapping the 8th Av/6th Av locals past W4, which is enabled by the track layout, some comments shut them down because they wrongly thought you can't do so without introducing more interlining. Some proposals forget that CPW can only feed into 6th Av express but not local, or that SAS only feeds into Broadway express but not local, while others forget tracks that can go into either local or express (e.g. 63rd to 6th, 53rd to 8th). If even railfans don't have perfect knowledge of where it's physically possible for trains to go, how can you expect that from the general public?

Edited April 11 by Teban54
Fix typo

[FLX9304]

On 4/9/2024 at 10:37 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Yep!  That is EXACTLY how it was.  The  often was six cars on weekends as I remember going to Shea for Mets games then. 

Also, the  was six cars during rush hours.  

6 cars on the (7), especially during baseball games? That’s pathetic! They should’ve treated baseball fans of yesteryear than what they do today. 
 

I only counted off peak hours, not peak because most of the lines were full length, with the exception of the  & the . The very short AA becomes the long CC during peak hours, so they do share the same car lengths 

[CenSin]

6 hours ago, Teban54 said:

If even railfans don't have perfect knowledge of where it's physically possible for trains to go, how can you expect that from the general public?

You are giving complex examples. Hence, I had qualified my statement:

10 hours ago, CenSin said:

“is it physically possible for this train to go anywhere else except X?” (where X is usually a station a few stops away along an isolated R.O.W.)

 

I expect some level of baseline knowledge from regular riders, such as knowing the stations their trains are stopping at every day.