A groundswell builds for tunnel to Brooklyn

[Trainmaster5]

It's amazing to see all of this commotion over an idea, and that's all it is, an idea. If I may add my two cents to the conversation, there are some good and some really bad ideas that have been thrown about. IF this project needs a starting point I'd use the Dual Contracts as a starting point. As stated, the 4th Ave-Bay Ridge Line was laid out in anticipation of a S.I. connector so refer to that plan as a master. Tunnels to Manhattan are a pipe dream IMO unless it was for transit and vehicular traffic too. I don't think you would get funding for a rail only tunnel from the federal government ever again unless rail freight traffic was also included so that's out. If there was a way to piggyback w/ Rep. Nadler's plan for a tunnel from S.I. to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch there might be some light for this idea. I saw where many people were harshly critical of Subway Guys remarks I think he was the most realistic about this idea. I also think an earlier poster, Fred, I think, might be old enough to remember the fight over the Narrows Bridge itself. If you're too young to remember I'll point out something you may have heard. Robert Moses ramrodded that bridge through over the objections of Bay Ridge residents AND ESPECIALLY S.I. residents. S.I. residents did not want that connection w/Brooklyn and the rest of NYC. Now a different generation demands just that. What irony ? Whether the ideas are good or bad I have no horse in this race but I can hear the howls from the other boroughs when talk of higher fares or taxes are bandied about. I realize that Richmond residents pay taxes like other residents and deserve public services too but it seems funny that the borough that screams secession at the drop of a hat now wants the money sucking leech, , to sink it's fangs deeper into S.I.

[Grand Concourse]

You mean like an SIRT station in Brooklyn that provides for a transfer to a subway line? I think this would be the only way this would happen because of FRA regulations.

 

Yes, an across the platform transfer. Though, I think they'd need turnstiles since all but two SIRT stations are free.

[LRG]

It's amazing to see all of this commotion over an idea, and that's all it is, an idea. If I may add my two cents to the conversation, there are some good and some really bad ideas that have been thrown about. IF this project needs a starting point I'd use the Dual Contracts as a starting point. As stated, the 4th Ave-Bay Ridge Line was laid out in anticipation of a S.I. connector so refer to that plan as a master. Tunnels to Manhattan are a pipe dream IMO unless it was for transit and vehicular traffic too. I don't think you would get funding for a rail only tunnel from the federal government ever again unless rail freight traffic was also included so that's out. If there was a way to piggyback w/ Rep. Nadler's plan for a tunnel from S.I. to the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch there might be some light for this idea. I saw where many people were harshly critical of Subway Guys remarks I think he was the most realistic about this idea. I also think an earlier poster, Fred, I think, might be old enough to remember the fight over the Narrows Bridge itself. If you're too young to remember I'll point out something you may have heard. Robert Moses ramrodded that bridge through over the objections of Bay Ridge residents AND ESPECIALLY S.I. residents. S.I. residents did not want that connection w/Brooklyn and the rest of NYC. Now a different generation demands just that. What irony ? Whether the ideas are good or bad I have no horse in this race but I can hear the howls from the other boroughs when talk of higher fares or taxes are bandied about. I realize that Richmond residents pay taxes like other residents and deserve public services too but it seems funny that the borough that screams secession at the drop of a hat now wants the money sucking leech, , to sink it's fangs deeper into S.I.

 

Well said. I don't think any more needs to be said.

[GarbageTruckJuice]

It would be a waste to build a train to Staten Island because by the time it got done we'll be teleporting.

[SoSpectacular]

It would be a waste to build a train to Staten Island because by the time it got done we'll be teleporting.

 

Lol pretty much.

[Grand Concourse]

It would be a waste to build a train to Staten Island because by the time it got done we'll be teleporting.

 

Lol, well at least there's 'sky cars'.

[Far Rock Depot]

If it must be Manahttan, there are two options: the Nassau line [where the J/Z uses to turn back trains] or of course the SAS.

Other than that I don't think anything else should be extended.

 

But again I still say Brooklyn is better than nothing.

 

there's a third manhattan option: the 2 bellmouths south of Whitehall St

 

You mean like an SIRT station in Brooklyn that provides for a transfer to a subway line? I think this would be the only way this would happen because of FRA regulations.

The main point of any argument against any connection between SIR and the Subway.

Yes, an across the platform transfer. Though, I think they'd need turnstiles since all but two SIRT stations are free.

they would only need turnstiles transfering to the subway. People from it already paid their fare.

 

So, with all this ressurected talk on this subject, ive noticed alot of points missed or ignored. The main point being, unless the SIR is converted from FRA status, you cannot operate SIR trains on NYCT tracks and vise versa.

whether its to be extended to Bk or Man, the most that can be done as far as a connection is across the platform or other levels. People, think for a moment of these ideas on where to connect.

at South Ferry

thats basically A division vs B division. SIR to the 1 tunnels wont fit. 1 trains on SIR will be too small.

at WTC

Has anyone who proposes this ever been to that station???? where the tracks end, the WTC concourse begins. Then there's the BMT tunnels at Cortland st.

Extending the down 4th ave

Crowds and bottlenecks. any line to and from SI will have to be a new line specifically for SI service. NOT an extention of a current especially NOT the

SAS

possible. but by that time we will have a colony on Mars.

 

Now lets get hypothetical here

Say the MTA has the money. And they convert SIR to subway operations. IMO, SI residents would probably want a direct line to manhattan. And a quicker commute than the ferry. here's another option:

Any T/O who's operated thru Whitehall st can verify the 2 bellmouths south of Whitehall. they point to Governer's IS. start diggin there to that island. There is where you can set access to the tunnels(air, utilities, emergency exits,etc. Maybe even a stop). now run the tunnel under brooklyn along the shore. Less expensive than one under the harbor. and constant access to street levels. then under the narrows to the SIR line. You would now have a direct route between MAn and SI, without creating chaos on 4th ave. Now this you can still do without converting SIR to subway. instead of connecting to the at Whitehall, a new station below it with connections to the

and possibly the at bowling green. Once again, this would be IF the MTA had money.

[Grand Concourse]

For the , not only the WTC concourse, but I do believe someone stated the R/W tracks are about the same distance below the street as the E. So agreed, the E has to be written off. It's not even something to concider.

[fishmech]

I still think the best plan is to finish the 100 year old plan to make all of the BMT 4th Avenue line 4 tracks and extend out to the SIR at Grasmere. It's simple, its the cheapest way, and it serves the great many people who already need to commute between SI and Brooklyn. You build the 110th street station that was meant to be the last stop before SI, and you build a station at Grasmere for transfer to the SIR. If you really want, push it through farther and go under/along the Staten Island Expressway.

 

Remember, the point isn't to go to Manhattan quickly with the subway, the ferry basically already covers that and the ferries all hold at least 2x as many people as a full length B-Division train. Perhaps the city should invest in the kind of fast ferry you see in Seattle or Vancouver to cut the the trip time to 10 minutes or so.

[Grand Concourse]

But can they carry the same amount of people the current ferries do? I would be in favor of higher speed ferries, that's probably a more reasonable solution than a 5 mile tunnel from SI to Manhattan.

[fishmech]

But can they carry the same amount of people the current ferries do? I would be in favor of higher speed ferries, that's probably a more reasonable solution than a 5 mile tunnel from SI to Manhattan.

 

 

They can carry from half the people to as many as the current ones do - but then again with faster ferries you can safely run more ferry trips.

 

Remember though, a ferry that carries half the amount your average SI ferry does is still carrying 2000 people.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I'm certainly in favor of running subway service to Staten Island. It is after all, part of New York City and therefore should have New York City Subway service running there. Here's what I'm proposing:

 

I wouldn't run the train to Tottenville. The is already long and slow enough as it is. By running the there, it would make for an insanely long commute to Manhattan that would cause Manhattan- or Brooklyn-bound commuters to search for faster options.

 

Instead, I'd run another Broadway BMT line to Staten Island, the . It would run unchanged from Astoria to Prince Street. After Prince, the would switch to the express tracks and go over the Manhattan Bridge with the and lines. Then, I'd run the express through Brooklyn via 4th Avenue. The would make just four stops in Brooklyn: Pacific, 36th, 59th and 86th Streets. Then it would run in a tunnel under the Narrows into SI.

 

Rather than have the take over the SIRT, I'd run it across the Island via the SI Expressway. This way it can connect to many of SI's local buses. I'd leave the SIRT alone except to build a new transfer station to the train in Fox Hills. This allows both train lines to serve different destinations effectively; SIRT for St. George and Lower Manhattan (via Ferry) and for Brooklyn and Midtown Manhattan.

 

Thoughts?

[Joe]

Was 86th designed as a single island platform to allow for the station to be made an express stop if the line was indeed extended to the Landfill?

[INDman]

Was 86th designed as a single island platform to allow for the station to be made an express stop if the line was indeed extended to the Landfill?

 

I have heard that from 59th street to at least 86th street, there is room for 4 tracks. Bay Ridge Av and 77th Street were to be local stations and 86th Street would be an express stop. Between Bay ridge Av and 77th street it is rumored that the unused track ways have a Con Ed substation in them that would be removed if the tunnels are going to be used.

[Joe]

Between 65th and 66th there is the overpass over the Bay Ridge Branch that has four trackways on it. However, south of that location 4th gets a bit narrower and lacks the center divider with the subway grates. Hell, I was just down there Monday morning, luckily hit all the lights just the right way. :cool:

[Far Rock Depot]

i can understand everyone having ideas on what line should go to SI. But does anyone realize that a new line would have to me made? extending any current line would be too long of a run.

[Joe]

But does anyone realize that a new line would have to me made?

 

I think everyone here understands that (even the special people). If the line already existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation now, eh?

[Far Rock Depot]

I think everyone here understands that (even the special people). If the line already existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation now, eh?

i dont mean a new line as in tunnels,etc. i mean a new route. not extending the R or the J or the 1. especially not the R. In all honesty, anything that doesnt originate in manhattan shouldnt, IMO, be considered.

[Grand Concourse]

If I lived on SI, I'd just pencil in at least 1 hour for the ferry. Just get out of the house earlier.

 

As for the train tunnel, I still say it should be either a shuttle from the SIRT or another branch going to Brooklyn to take the subway. The other subway lines are long enough, no need to send anything out to SI.

[fishmech]

Was 86th designed as a single island platform to allow for the station to be made an express stop if the line was indeed extended to the Landfill?

 

That's not a single island platform, there's another platform behind the fake walls! Or at least, space for the other.

 

Both 86 and 95 are the southbound side of express stations!

[rr4567]

And so we have another basher against the borough of Staten Island in our midst, who goes by the handle of SoSpectacular. Why is it so hard for you and others to understand that Staten Island is a borough of New York City, just like the Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan and Queens

 

Staten Island is no borough...it's an island

But then again, every boro except the Bronx is an island.

Staten Island = NYC suburb

[Grand Concourse]

That's not a single island platform, there's another platform behind the fake walls! Or at least, space for the other.

 

Both 86 and 95 are the southbound side of express stations!

 

Interesting, where'd you get this info? I never knew about that.

[2Line1291]

When it comes to adding another rail service in Staten Island, its all talk and no action. But one of those talks is about restoring rail service on North Shore Branch - in my opinion (my suggestion) it would be great to expand the use of North Shore Branch into Brooklyn and provide connection to 59th St Station or even better physically connect to the subway by connecting the North Shore tracks to BMT 4th Ave express tracks. I agree a new letter would have to be introduced. Broadway and 6th Ave ( can't fit a 5th service in though

[Grand Concourse]

Platform transfer is good enough. No need to send the subways outside of Brooklyn, headways would be made worse if they were to go further out. Let the SIRT come to Brooklyn instead.

[m7zanr160s]

IT makes sense to extend the because the was built with the hope of extending to SI some day. The BMT Fourth Avenue Line isn't even finished, it was meant to end at 101st street, not 95th street as it is now. And at that point it would be a mere few hundred feet from the Narrows.

 

Look at this map, A is the current end of the at 95th, B is the proper end at 101st, and you can see how it's right across the Narrows. Connecting to any other line would be a waste:

 

And the 4th Avenue line is 4 tracks ready, most of the current stations south of where the branches off are only the eastern or western halves of 4 track wide station.

 

Well said.